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Originally posted by lululymemom:
My brother is on the McDougall diet and despite being bitten by ticks three different times, is a very healthy 49 year old.. He swears that his diet is what keeps him healthy. He doesn't even have any vision issues which by this age start to decline.

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Originally posted by richedie:
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Originally posted by Cold Feet:
The trick is to understand this: when one is on a vegetarian diet (or vegan), one is getting MUCH more nutrition into the human body. This means more vitamins, mineral and enzymes.

Natural enzymes are often overlooked as the true "cure" for most medical conditions. If one cared to test this approach, read any of Anthony Cichoke's enzyme books - then start using the right enzymes and knowledge from his books!

http://www.amazon.com/Enzymes-Enzyme-Therapy-Jump-Start-Lifelong/dp/0658002902

These are older books, but still brilliant. You may find them at the library too.

Btw, it's no coincidence that many enzymes break down bacterial biofilms.

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I will check the library for that book. I have read bolouke, lumbrokinase is the best at breaking down biofilms and also a low fat diet.

Whether I eat a vegetarian diet or meat diet, I still get about the same nutrient density with my food as well as enzymes. It would be different if I was raw.

I thought of trying raw vegan but when you eat 4,000 calories a day, it is tough.
 

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Posted by Razzle (Member # 30398) on :
 
Yes, vegen diets generally are free from things that promote inflammation, so I can see where this diet would help some with autoimmunity.

However, Lyme is an infection, and having been vegan and vegetarian (I vascillate between dairy and no dairy; I do not eat eggs, meat or seafood & have not for over 20 years), I have to wonder if I would have been sicker if I did not have as clean a diet as I do... It was not a choice to go vegetarian - I simply got to the point that eating meat, seafood (never did like fish...), and eggs just made me feel too sick to keep eating them. This was long before I had ever heard of Lyme Disease...

Also, I need to comment here about fats. The type of fats one gets is almost more important than the quantity. Omega-3 fatty acids are seriously lacking in the traditional American diet. This is partly due to all the processed food we Americans tend to eat, and also due to the farming practices of animal farmers (beef, pork, poultry). Factory farmed meats have poor Omega-3 to Omega-6 fatty acid ratios and are thus far less healthy than grazed/free-range meats. The same goes for eggs - if the chickens are free-range, they get their "natural" diet (pecking at grass & insects) and thus the health of the eggs they produce is much superior to factory-farmed eggs. The animals are healthier and need fewer or no antibiotics when they are not factory farmed, either.

Why does this matter? Omega-3 fatty acids help to control inflammation. Omega-6 fatty acids tend to promote inflammation when not kept in proper balance with Omega-3 fatty acids. We do need both types, but the typical American diet is way too high in Omega-6 fatty acids, and way to low in Omega-3 fatty acids.

Also, after having to rely on IV nutrition for about 2 1/4 years, and having serious reactions to IV lipids (fats) and therefore could not get the fats my body needed for those 2 1/4 years, I got diagnosed with fatty acid deficiency. It is not a good thing to experience...lack of sufficient fatty acids affects every cell and tissue in the body, especially skin, nails, bones, and hair.

So while fats may contribute to biofilms, they are also essential to good health and cannot be avoided long-term without significant health consequences.

Just my $.02...
 

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Posted by raw vegan runner (Member # 30432) on :
 
Can't say much more than Razzle...

I have been a vegetarian most of my life, vegan off and on, and total raw vegan for close to 5 years, starting when I was diagnosed with Lyme.

I do not believe it has cured me. In fact, I have been eating fish off and on these last few months as it is what my body was needing and I cannot digest raw foods at all right now.

I am 100% in favor of a vegetarian/vegan diet. I will go back to raw vegan as soon as I am able. I also believe that my years as a vegetarian/vegan may be why I didn't get as sick as some...but I do not believe it is a cure, in and of itself. I think there are many pieces to the *cure* puzzle, and diet is just one of them.

I also eat a very low fat diet, by default. I am allergic to nuts, and do not eat vegan 'junk food' so do not get much fat in my diet. Again, I do not think that has helped, necessarily...though I do not think it hurt.
 

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Posted by nefferdun (Member # 20157) on :
 
I just read the book The China Study which explains the authors research on the vegan versus typical American diet. He says diabetes, cancer and cardiovascular disease are the result of eating meat and animal products as well as processed food. He says they are the diseases of affluence.

In the rural areas of China they studied the diets of over 4000 Chinese who ate primarily a vegan diet. The did not suffer the disease we die of here.

Instead they died from virus', parasites and bacteria! So a vegan/vegetarian diet will not cure us but it will help to make us healthier so we can fight off the infections. He said the main problem in poor rural areas was getting a variety of food.

When my son was diagnosed with diabetes I was surprised to find out type one is sometimes caused by an autoimmune reaction to the casein in cow's milk, especially when infants are fed cow's milk formulae. The milk protein resembles beta cells so the body also attacks those cells in the pancreas.
 

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Posted by gwb (Member # 7273) on :
 
To each his/her own. But I just can't see how a vegan/vegetarian diet can be good for people who are chronically ill. I understand doing it for cancer, but for Lyme and other chronic diseases???

http://realfooddudes.blogspot.com/2011/04/why-eating-meat-is-not-immoral.html

Gary
 

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Posted by WhitneyS (Member # 25666) on :
 
I;m going to have to chime in here---

Yes vegan/ veggie diet can be great for some, but there is NO scientific study that shows its healthier. The China Study is VERY flawed, and is in no way a properly conducted scientific study.

I was vegan for over a year and I have an auto-immune disease, so def not a cure. I think eatting veggies is SOOO important. But vegan diets permit TONS of inflammatory agents: Omega 6, sugar, refined grains, soy etc.

I really dont think it matters if your veg or not, I think the quality of food you put in your body is what matters. I also know there are a lot of LLMDs that will not treat someone who is a veggie.
 

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Posted by lululymemom (Member # 26405) on :
 
I believe the McDougall Vegan diet focuses on anti-inflammatory products only.

http://www.drmcdougall.com/med_hot_arthritis_diet.html

Components of the rich American diet are known to impair its function. Vegetable oils, including those of the omega-3 and omega-6 variety, are particularly strong suppressors of the immune system.

This immune suppressing quality of oils (for example, fish oil and primrose oil) has been used to suppress the pain and inflammation of arthritis, but like too many drug therapies the ultimate outcome may not be best for the patient. Suppression of the immune system prevents it from doing its work of removing invading foreign proteins. Low-fat diets have been shown to retard the development of autoimmune diseases, similar to lupus and rheumatoid arthritis, in experimental animals (Ann Rheum Dis 48:765, 1989).

The importance of the overall diet cannot be overemphasized. Proper foods keep the intestinal barriers strong and the immune system in a fighting condition. Those foods are whole starches, vegetable, and fruits. In addition to being free of animal products, the diet must be low in fat of all kinds--vegetable oil (even olive oil, corn, safflower, and flaxseed oil) and animal fat.

When it comes to blaming individual foods, dairy products seem to be the most troublesome foods, causing the most common and severe reactions. Many reports indicate grains, such as corn and wheat can also aggravate of symptoms. The truth seems to be almost any food can cause trouble, but few people react to vegetable foods.

[ 04-09-2011, 01:10 AM: Message edited by: lululymemom ]
 

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Posted by richedie (Member # 14689) on :
 
chiquita,

I hate to say it but saying vegans don't get enough fats is off base.

When I was vegan, I think I ate more fats than I do now, I knew where to get my fats as well. I ate the correct grains, nuts, seeds, veggies that supplied all the fats I needed. I was also really into bodybuilding at the time and was at my strongest. No problem at al getting fats you need.

Keep in mind, at one time, plants had all the B-12 we needed as humans. Only reason that has changed, is because we have sterilized the soil in which we grow food. You realize the animals people eat have to be supplemented with B-12 because the amount in the soil and plants has been destroyed. We don't make proper use of our land and we are seeing the problems.

Dr. Fry says he has seen first hand in the lab that biofilms become stronger with more fats in the diet, go to a low to no fat diet, and the biofilms start to break down.

[ 04-10-2011, 01:13 AM: Message edited by: richedie ]
 

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Posted by jenniferk32 (Member # 30718) on :
 
Interesting that I felt like crap for years before my Lyme diagnosis, like I was dangling on the edge of "losing it" mentally and physically. When I actually did lose it and ended up in the psych hospital 3 times in 3 months, I had switched over to veganism several months before.

I'm not saying the veganism caused me to snap, but maybe it pushed me over the edge by bringing out the hidden bacteria and toxins? Maybe my body and brain couldn't handle that drastic of a cleansing?

Anyway, I'm back to being an omnivore, mostly because I feel better eating that way. Maybe that's because I'm not detoxifying fast and hard like I was when vegan...IDK, maybe gradually switching over so the body isn't overwhelmed is a good idea.
 

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Posted by gwb (Member # 7273) on :
 
Dr. Ron, an ND who has Lyme disease, was a vegetarian at one time. He thought that was the optimal diet for his Lyme disease. However, as time went on he discovered that this way of eating (for him) was counterproductive.

He explains why in his blog. He's got a very good website with some interesting articles. If you are interested, you can read some of his articles and his perspective on vegetarianism on his website.

He still has Lyme and believes some of the key ways to keeping it under control is diet (traditional foods), exercise and specific supplements.

Check it out:

http://www.drrons.com/recovering-from-vegetarianism-toc.htm

http://www.drrons.com/diet-chronic-disease-and-optimal-health.htm

http://www.drrons.com/traditional-foods-best-medicine.htm

Gary
 

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Posted by richedie (Member # 14689) on :
 
gwb, how does one explain that the longest living and healthiest culturs in the world have been vegetarians and many rarely ever touched animals foods. There are lots of examples.
How do you explain the fact that we are biological herbivores? There have been massive studies, researching cultures and populations that have the largest number of centarians and almost all were plant based diets, lots of grains, starches, veggies and fruits, almost no meat.
 

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Posted by gwb (Member # 7273) on :
 
What cultures do you speak of?

Gary
 

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Posted by gwb (Member # 7273) on :
 
Vegetarianism in Traditional Cultures?

"Dr. Weston Price was very interested in vegetarian ideas. Of Vitu Levu, a large island in the Pacific Ocean, he wrote, �I had hoped to find on it a district far enough from the sea to make it necessary for the natives to have lived entirely on land foods�

one of the purposes of the expedition to the South Seas was to find, if possible, plants or fruits which together, without the use of animal products, were capable of providing all of the requirements for growth and for maintenance of good health and a high state of physical efficiency.�

He expressed his �disappointment� that ��I have not found a single group of primitive racial stock which was building and maintaining excellent bodies by living entirely on plant foods.

I have found in many parts of the world most devout representatives of modern ethical systems advocating the restriction of foods to the vegetable products. In every instance where the groups involved had been long under this teaching, I found evidence of degeneration.�

Dr. Price�s disappointment that vegan diets are invariably deficient appears to be echoed in the histories of many of us who follow his teachings. Who among us has not at some time tried to follow a vegetarian or near vegetarian regime?

Vegan, fruitarian, vegetarian, ovo-lacto-vegetarian, with or without occasional fish or chicken�it sometimes seemed we were conditioned to eat as little animal food as we could get by on. Even after reaching an intellectual understanding of Price�s work and the critical importance of nutrients, especially fat-soluble activators, found only in animal foods, we often appear to be perhaps unconsciously concerned about eating too much of them.

Such concern and an accompanying aversion to eating very much animal food is most marked, of course, before one learns about Price�s work. Years of vegetarian or near vegetarian eating result in, to use Dr. Price�s word, degeneration. How does one recover?"

Source: http://www.drrons.com/recovering-from-vegetarianism.htm

Gary
 

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Posted by lululymemom (Member # 26405) on :
 

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Originally posted by gwb:
What cultures do you speak of?

Gary

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Please look at the link for cultures that live primarily on a plant based diet.

http://en.wikipedia.org:80/wiki/Blue_Zone

Just an interesting bit of information:

http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=iOG3b5vnIgk&feature=related
 

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Posted by richedie (Member # 14689) on :
 
I am not trying to start an argument. I am just going off research and what I have been taught when I was in school to be a nutritionist. Even in my text books it mentioned a vegetarian diet as being the healthiest.

There are quite a few, more all the time pro sports players switching to a vegetarian diet as they notice more energy, they heal faster from injury, etc.

If I can find it I will post it but there was a 30 or 40 year US longevity study and they concluded a plant based diet with little meat was healthiest.

Traditional Okinawans were loaded with people living in good health past 100, and they survived mostly on a plant based diet with small amounts of fish once in a while. Unfortunately things are changing with more young people in Okinawa eating USA inspired foods, fast food, etc.

Others:
Abkhasians - 10% of diet from animal foods
Vilcabambans - 1% from animal foods
Hunzans _ 1% as well

I have read countless times that Weston Price was a fraud.

Go to WestonPrice.org
A quick perusal of the various pages at this site revealed so much misinformation and outright garbage science, it's almost not worth discussing. As an example, they feel that Laetril is a sure fire cancer cure. The real research on laetril shows it to be completely worthless as an anti-cancer treatment. Yet, partly because of websites like this, and the desperation of terminally ill people, the quakery lives on! Further reading brings up example after example of bogus dietary advice. It's another website that can be turned to when humor is in short supply.
 

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Posted by GiGi (Member # 259) on :
 
Are you able to absorb what you eat? Do an amino acid test and find out whether you have a chance to detox the onslaught of neurotoxins. And do a hair analysis and find out where you stand with essential minerals. that will tell you instantly what you should look for in a diet.

Weston Price was not a fraud. I wish we had a lot more of them. We dug up out of the earth enough toxins - now we have to learn to deal with them.

Take care.
 

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Posted by gwb (Member # 7273) on :
 
Glad you're not trying to start an argument. Neither am I. Just presenting some information for people to read so that they can come to their own conclusions.

Dr. Ron is an ND, a pretty smart one too. I guess he saw this diet as something that would benefit his overall health and healing with Lyme disease. I've been eating grass fed organic meats with tons of vegetables for over a year now and feel better than I have in over 20 years. I eat two eggs a day and lots of coconut oil, butter, cream, etc. My cholesterol is normal, first time it's been normal in 30 years.

It isn't about who's right or who's wrong, it's all about what works best for you. This has worked for me very well, it's worked for Dr. Ron, and it's worked well for tons of other people who have followed Sally Fallon's way of eating.

She also promotes eating traditional, organic grass fed meats and organic vegetables, etc. http://www.amazon.com/Nourishing-Traditions-Challenges-Politically-Dictocrats/dp/0967089735/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302467752&sr=1-1

Everyone has to decide what's best for them. This thread has a lot of good information on both sides of the debate. That's what helps people learn and make choices they believe will help get them well.

This is what's helped me and I don't feel it's a fraud. My improved health speaks for itself. But if it gives you some good humor, well, that's a good thing! ; )

Gary
 

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Posted by richedie (Member # 14689) on :
 
So we disagree. I just tend to go more by documented research and I like to look at what the longest living and healthiest populations have eaten, nuff said.
I look at them as an example of how I should eat.

I read interest study that found that vegetarians had higher levels of beneficial bacteria than meat eaters. I will see if I can find it.

On the absorbing nutrients issue, testing I had 2 or 3 years ago displayed that I was nit deficient anywhere and heavy metal testing showed I gave low levels! My doctor feels I detox really well.
 

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Posted by lymie_in_md (Member # 14197) on :
 
I'm just going to say, a plant based diet is very important for many people. Now Paul Pitchford doesn't advocate no meat just less of it. Most of his research is based on what he's seen in Asia where it far more plant based then meat.

The tapestry of the world and what you eat is base on what is available, even insects. The eskimo's and mongolians do very well on high animal content diet.

I don't trust studies, because they are all flawed concocted based on a narrow point view. So studies might not really reflect reality, just a small portion of it. I really believe in common sense in what you want to eat. Eating meat or eggs you search for quality, I'm not so sure the studies care about quality. Eating plant based is also determined on quality and again common sense. Most plants are high in oxalates and goitrogens, you have to factor that in what you eat as well. Some lymies not all may not do to well on having a diet too high in oxalates if the body can't handle them.

So, a diet is specific to the person. So Sally Fallon and Paul Pitchford are great people, and I would find it disappointing to throw stones at either one of them, because they both put out information they are passionate about. Information we need weigh in our own minds what might best work for us.

My diet is plant based but also animal based similar to Gary's and I'm a body builder too! I'm turning 56 in couple of months and am closing in on being in the best shape of my life.
 

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Posted by yanivnaced (Member # 13212) on :
 
Has anybody seen the movie "Fat Sick and Nearly Dead". I watched a couple of days ago & highly recommend it. In the movie the guy had some autoimmune condition of many years which caused inflammation all over his body/skin.

He went on a 60 day juicing fast, which he documented on film. After completing the fast I think his condition went away and he got off meds such as steroids and other things.
 

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Posted by richedie (Member # 14689) on :
 
Yes, I used to belong to a vegan bodybuilding club. Some of those guys were huge.

I tried to find "Fat Sick and Nearly Dead" on, On Demand but not luck.

That guy made a huge change though, went from eating garbage and being terribly overweight. I eat well and am in tremendous shape. I wonder what a juice fast would do for me.
 

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Posted by gwb (Member # 7273) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by richedie:
So we disagree. I just tend to go more by documented research and I like to look at what the longest living and healthiest populations have eaten, nuff said.
I look at them as an example of how I should eat.

I read interest study that found that vegetarians had higher levels of beneficial bacteria than meat eaters. I will see if I can find it.

On the absorbing nutrients issue, testing I had 2 or 3 years ago displayed that I was nit deficient anywhere and heavy metal testing showed I gave low levels! My doctor feels I detox really well.

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Did you read ANY of the links I provided you with? I can provide you with tons of documented research that shows that people who eat moderate amounts of grass fed meats, clean seafood, along with good portions of organic vegetables, have better health in the long run than those who eat only vegetables and fruits.

But you know what, you aren't going to be convinced, because like you said, and I quote, "I am just going off research and what I have been taught when I was in school to be a nutritionist. Even in my text books it mentioned a vegetarian diet as being the healthiest".

In other words, you've made up your mind and no amount of research that counters what you "read in your text books" is going to make one bit of difference in your thinking about this.

Guess what? There's new research, new text books and other studies that say otherwise. But whatever you chose to believe makes no difference to me.

I'm not here to change minds, I'm just here to provide information. I don't get the sense that you've read any of the links I provided you with, if I'm wrong I apologize in advance.

But you haven't said anything about what Dr. Ron has written from his own experience as a vegetarian who happens to be an ND who happens to have Lyme disease. Why would he chose a diet that would be counter productive to his health and well being?

Anyway, like you said, we disagree--yep, that's something we can agree on. : ) So what? You happy, me happy, we all happy. So, let's all be one big happy family together, eh?

Gary
 

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Posted by lululymemom (Member # 26405) on :
 
I think the only way to truly appreciate a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle is to try it. There is no other way to explain how beneficial it can really be. There is something to be said for all those that go from eating meat to plant based diet. It doesn't usually go the other way around. Even though some really have a hard time giving up meat, they usually find it worthwhile in the end.

Speaking for myself, one with Lyme and Bartonella, I have never been on any antibiotic treatment and have been sick for at least 10-26 years. Most days I function at around 75-80%. I was much sicker in my early days when I was eating meat. I attribute this to a vegetarian lifestyle.
 

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Posted by gwb (Member # 7273) on :
 
lululymemom,

So glad to know you are doing better and contribute it to your vegetarian lifestyle. I would not be surprised if that's true. Who can explain it? Sometimes people do better on the meat and vegetable diet (like me), others do better on a vegetarian diet.

What's important is you are making progress on this diet and nothing else really matters. I hope and pray you continue to get better and eventually beat this stinkin disease!

That's what we're all striving for Everyone has to take the path that works best for them. There's no "one size fits all", unfortunately.

Keep up the good work and keep us posted on your progress.

Gary
 

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Posted by nefferdun (Member # 20157) on :
 
The American Diabetic Association, Kidney Disease Association etc say to avoid red meat.

A study at Georgetown University showed the vegan diet greatly reduced the need for medication in type two diabetics - and in several cases no medications was needed - basically cured.

I posted all the links before.

I think it is much healthier. No doubt. I am trying to convert completely. I have not had red meat in 2 and a half years but still haven't given up chicken, although less and less. I am going to a vegan cooking class next week.

With the radiation in the ocean and the oil spill it will be easy to give up fish.

I am really glad to see so many people with lyme disease going vegan/vegetarian.
 

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Posted by GiGi (Member # 259) on :
 
For whatever it is worth, no matter which way things are twisted and turned, we are living with two many neurotoxins having dug up the earth everywhere. Toxic metals can only go into solution in an acidic environment. If you are among those who do not absorb well due to leaky gut, food allergies, regulation problems, metal allergies, etc., it is difficult to keep the amino acids at a level to support serious detoxing which everyone with Lyme has to deal with.

To get rid of the infections, metals need to go. It is not possible to do this on a vegetarian diet. I have heard Dr. K. saying many times "never saw a healthy vegetarian".

Take care and best to all.
 

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Posted by disturbedme (Member # 12346) on :
 
I was vegan for over 4 years.... didn't help my symptoms. I actually got full blown sick around my 3rd year of being vegan. I wish it helped, but didn't help me.

The thing that actually helped me the most was going completely gluten free. That helped my symptoms more than going vegan!!!!

Not that I'm saying you shouldn't go vegan or vegetarian; I'm definitely not saying that.

I started eating chicken/turkey again, but will never eat red meat again in my life. And some days I want to go vegetarian again and stop eating chicken and turkey. I also still steer clear of dairy and will never go back to that either.

But truthfully, the best thing for my health was going gluten free.
 

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Posted by jenniferk32 (Member # 30718) on :
 
As an addition to what others have said about vegetarianism and veganism, I have to mention my sister-in-law. She's a "natural" vegetarian, as in she doesn't do it because she thinks it's healthy or because she feels sorry for animals.

She does it because she has an aversion to meat. She hates the smell, the taste, everything about it. She's refused to touch it since being a very young child.

I've noticed, though, that she is a very unhealthy individual. It took her 10 years of unprotected sex to get pregnant. Her and my brother had accepted that they would have to adopt.

When she has any kind of injury, she takes an exceptionally long time to heal. She had a broken thumb that took, no joke, a year to heal. She also broke her foot just from starting up a non-strenuous walking regime. That was 6 months ago and she still has not healed entirely. She also got a blood clot in her leg that is covered over somehow and has never healed.

Surgery for that would be dangerous, so she has to take coumadin for the rest of her life. She is also about 75 pounds overweight.

The disclaimer to this that the pro-vegetarian/vegan people could take into consideration is that she eats like crap. She would choose a donut and a latte any day over some steel-cut oats and fruit.

I still don't know though- maybe without meat she just doesn't have enough nutrients to heal properly when injured.

It could be either way. In the least though, I believe it's quite possible to be vegan or vegetarian and still be unhealthy if you don't choose high-quality foods. And a person who eats animal products can probably be healthier than some vegetarians if they eat plenty of fruits, vegetables, and whole grains while avoiding sugar, caffiene, "bad" fats, refined grains, etc.

So to me, it doesn't matter as much whether you're a vegetarian, vegan, or follow an omnivorous diet as much as it matters to make quality choices within that type of diet.

You can eat healthfully or crappily in any diet.
 

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Posted by gwb (Member # 7273) on :
 
People who are vegetarians or vegans usually have to supplement heavily to make up for the nutrients they don't get from eating animal proteins. Most vegetarians I know have a cupboard full of supplements that they *must* take lest their body suffer from vitamin deficiency.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/04/11/how-moms-vegan-diet-unintentionally-killed-her-innocent-child.aspx

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/09/17/angelina-jolie-says-vegan-diet-nearly-killed-her.aspx

I know people can be healthy on a vegetarian diet. They just need to be aware of what they need to supplement with to replace the nutrients they're not getting from animal protein or they will suffer the consequences. Same for those who eat too much red meat, especially factory farmed animals that are filled with all kinds of poisons. Not healthy at all.

Dr. Mercola has a test on his site that helps people discover their body type to help them determine which foods are best for their body. Might want to check it out.

Balance is the key.

Gary
 

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Posted by nefferdun (Member # 20157) on :
 
Talking about vegetarian diet, let's just assume it is a healthy diet void of processed highly refined garbage food. Let's just assume that the diet has whole grains, legumes, nuts, seeds, fruits and vegetables - not potato chips, french fries, white bread, sugar etc which with meat or no meat is a killer.

A friend of mine went to a lecture by Dr. K and he said the vegan diet is healthiest. I don't know what he believes but most people who have studied nutrition know the benefits of a vegan diet. It a no brainer these days. People just don't want to convert -

Arguing about the vegan diet being healthier is like arguing with the CDC about chronic lyme ( which does not exist), needing more than three weeks of abx.

I was a vegetarian for years. I was extremely healthy on that diet. I was carded until I was 32 years old. I started eating meat because of my husband but now he is following my lead back into that lifestyle.

I have a vegan friend with two children who have never had meat. They are brilliant - highly gifted - and so beautiful. The little boy was telling me the LATIN names of butterflies he liked when he was only 8 years old.

They weren't dead on arrival - far from it.
 

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Posted by lululymemom (Member # 26405) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by nefferdun:
[QB]
A friend of mine went to a lecture by Dr. K and he said the vegan diet is healthiest.

I'm confused, is this the same Dr. K. that said:

As quoted by Gigi
"I have heard Dr. K. saying many times "never saw a healthy vegetarian".
 

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Posted by jadams (Member # 28016) on :
 
How can a doctor like Dr. K say that he's never seen a healthy vegetarian? Considering he sees extremely ill patients who are most likely meat eaters I guess he could also say he's never seen a healthy meat eater! It goes both ways.

When the documentary "Forks over Knives" comes out I recommend that everyone sees it. It shows how a vegan diet reverses heart disease, high blood pressure, cancer and diabetes. Sounds pretty healthy to me!!
 

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Posted by nefferdun (Member # 20157) on :
 
Yes, it is the same Dr. K

So this is conflicting information. GiGi said in another thread that Dr. K said he had never seen a healthy vegetarian which surprised me. I decided he was not the doctor for me.

But someone I know that lives on the east coast actually went to one of his lectures (when he was in that area) and he told her the vegan diet is best. Maybe he has changed his mind or maybe it was a misunderstanding.
 

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Posted by richedie (Member # 14689) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by jadams:
How can a doctor like Dr. K say that he's never seen a healthy vegetarian? Considering he sees extremely ill patients who are most likely meat eaters I guess he could also say he's never seen a healthy meat eater! It goes both ways.

When the documentary "Forks over Knives" comes out I recommend that everyone sees it. It shows how a vegan diet reverses heart disease, high blood pressure, cancer and diabetes. Sounds pretty healthy to me!!

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