This is topic New Lyme Culture Test? in forum Medical Questions at LymeNet Flash.

To visit this topic, use this URL:

Posted by wilson2112 (Member # 34625) on :
Just a quick few questions.

Will this culture help for anything other then research?

In order to culture a spirokete, you have them in the blood/tissue sample (is this correct?).

I can see the new test as possibly being just a tab bit better then PCR, as it will also grow variations of Borrella, not just match up known DNA.

But if I am understanding it correctly its the old ping pong ball in a pool of water problem that PCR tests often miss.

The only difference is, if your lucky (or unlucky) to get a positive you end up with bugs in a dish when your done. Real honest to god proof of an active infection.

Am I missing something ?

I realize a lot of people rely of clinical diagnosis from LLMDs, but I am not one of them.

I also think the elisa and western blot antibody tests are worthless. They merely show exposure.

So is test available yet? Has anyone had it?

I have an LLMD, but haven't seen him in over a year. I would consider going back on ABX if I had definitive proof, that's why this test interests me.

My symptoms are mostly neuro, so I may just be nuts...
Posted by lymie tony z (Member # 5130) on :
whenever any indivitual's species of spirochtes

are identified, the next step would be, IMHO,

determining species and then subsequently,

which antibiotic/spirochetalcide would be most

effacatious per individual. Rather than

the utilization of the "dart/dartboard" trial

and error methodology presently in use. This

would be the BIG PICTURE you are missing.

The reason for suggestions for withdrawal of

blood being in the afternoon may not be as impor-

tant than each individuals monthly record of the

exacerbation of each one's symptoms, denoting the

activity of each individual's patterns of dissem-

ination, re-generation of each individual. It is

generally an accepted theory that this period is

when spirochetes are suspected of utilization of

the bloodstream for dissemination. However, cell

by cell dissemination of a symbiotic pathogen

might indicate tissue samples might be a

preferred method or specimen for detection.

However, this method might also be difficult to

determine exact location, due to spirechetal load

and or symptom manifestation relating to what

tissue or tissues targeted for selection may be

determined by the lab personell or your llmd or


Furthermore, to correct your perception of the

western blot blood test, if positive in the IgM

range of CDCP required positive bands would

denote an active or acute infection. Of course

any llmd worth their weight in experiences in

treating these diseases added to your care-

fully documented calendar associated manifesta-

tions or symptoms could readily determine active

or passive infectious status...even five bands in

the IgG accepted ranges plus your own personal

symptomology could also determine whether your

spirochetal infestations were acute(active). I

can well document an active(symptomological) or

dormant(asymptomatic) relationship with these

pathogens as I have experienced both in my over

57 year unwanted association with these vector

borne pathogens/co-infections.

As I have read and understand the press release

of the lab and the subsequent comment by Dr

Burrascano this test or group of tests are indeed

presently available. I have not as yet contacted

the lab myself however as to cost and or specimen

they may require of me. However, I will soon make

a call so as to determine if possible,

just what species or group of species etc., I

may have the individual displeasure to have per-

sonally been infected. Perhaps then my treating

llmd and I may be able to determine just which

anti-spirochetal would be most effacacious in the

(hopefully successful)resolution of my disease/s.

Hopefully eliminating at least the spirochetal

aspects of my infection/s. Any attempt to become

asymptomatic of spirochetal infections which may

or may not then pinpoint more drammatically

or more succinctly any other reasons for symptoms

that may or may not persist to determine any

other pathogens once spirochetes have been

eliminated. This then would be another way in

which the new testing methodology would be most

useful, even as I have been treating for the last

17 or so years since I was first tested and found

positive both IgG and IgM in 1997 and 1999


If you have been asymptomatic for over a year

and only complain of neuro symptoms(which you

failed to include in your thread). Your infec-

tion/s may have been forced into dormancy or

chose to remain themselves in dormancy for any

environmentally favorable or unfavorable reasons

your pathogens have determined. I would caution

you however due only to the pathogens in question

because of my experiences. Mild neurological

symptoms(if you are not indeed "just nuts"), may

indeed be a warning to you and your llmd that

you are still, very much infected actively and

quite possibly the number or location of your

spirochetes and their involvement/symptomatic/

manifestations whether waxing or waneing is or

should be a clinical reference to your clinical

practitioner that ABX's are still needed for

resolution. Utilization by your llmd of the new

culture testing may indeed prevent further

load growth, symptomatically suttle as they may

be to you personally thus prophylactically deal-

ing with your apparent disregard for the serious-

ness of spirochetal infections.

Any llmd worth a darn would or should have warn-

ed you against treating your neuro symptoms so

lightly-or as you say you "may just be nuts"...

Even so, I am of the belief that most, if not

all, mental diseases have their causes in the

microbiological/chemical pollutant etc., rather

than behavioral sciences. Thus, any and most

not all,


psychologist/psychiatrists/sociologists etc.,

are deathly afraid my above mentioned rationale

will some day be "discovered", laying waste to

all the education and past practices they've

learned or experienced clinically when dealing

with the human mammal. Even previously thought

of or diagnosed hereditary traits may indeed be

proven to be just the passing on from person to

person in the familial matrix the communicable

pathogens from one member to another. My argument

is substantiated by the number of positive lyme

or TBD or spirochetal(what have you) infections

which are present in not just one member of any

given family but are usually found to include

all members.

The recent discovery of even autism as having

a spirochetal involvement could be the initial

key that unlocks the mysteries of pathogen

involvement/hereditarily in all cases of mental

disease. As opposed to behavioral or

experiential(innate vs natural) or "genetical"

sciences. After all, genetics is the passing

on of defective geneology is it not? Why then

is the passing on of pathogens not more fully

investigated as being the "innate" causes for

mental diseases and or physiological maladies?

In any event, I think you may be greatly

aided along with your llmd with the new tests.

However you decide, good luck.

Posted by seibertneurolyme (Member # 6416) on :
zman -- A very well thought out and thorough answer to the question.

Please post an update when you find out what the new test costs.

I have always wondered which species of borrelia hubby has, but for now that will have to remain a mystery as I am not willing to take hubby off of antibiotics to do a test that I feel is still very much experimental. This time I am going to wait and see what results others get from the test before even considering it.

Bea Seibert
Posted by nenet (Member # 13174) on :
I don't believe this is commercially available yet, but this new form of Lyme testing looks more promising to me than any culture, antibody, or even DNA test so far:


"In years to come, is this something that could be available in hospitals?

That's the hope we have. The first clinical trial is on the detection of Lyme disease. A fraction of patients get a skin rash but for those without the rash it is very difficult to diagnose. So with the particles we are able to capture the antigens that come from the spirochaete that is the causative agent of Lyme disease. If we see in the urine a piece of the bacteria of the spirochaete, we are sure that the patient has Lyme disease. We are gathering all the evidence and then we will need to go first for FDA approval before it is available in clinics.

How much earlier will you be able to detect Lyme disease?

Lyme disease has a window of two to three weeks before seroconversion [production of antibodies in the host blood, indicating infection]. With our tests, we're able to detect it before seroconversion, because we're not looking for the antibodies, we just look for the spirochaete. I would say here, yes, by weeks, and earlier diagnosis would be beneficial for the prognosis."

Years ago, IGeneX used to offer the LUAT, which was also a urine antigen test, but I'm not sure why it fell out of use/favor. I've been meaning to look into that further for years.
Posted by lymie tony z (Member # 5130) on :
From what I remember Bea, your husband as have

many have had a rough time of it with

our "friends" so with your plan of not doing

abxs for the required minimum of four weeks

is probably a good move. I mean, until the lab

can decidedly give a definitive species and or

preferred most effacacious

antibiotic/spirochetacide(if that's a word)

patients already receiving treatments probably

don't or would'nt gain anything with just finding

out whether one has or does not have lyme.

As far as the LUAT test goes I believe the IDSA

had their long arms of incredability nay-saying

involved with those tests-if my over 400 ppm can

be any indication of how the IDSA may have viewed

the urine tests...somewhat how they used to treat

the "Bowen Culture" tests from that now defunct

laboratory due to the number of positive results

Bowen lab would detect. However, most of the

lymies who went there were already positive for

spirochetes and the Bowen lab boasted of the

benefits of curlturing Babesia pathogens...

Heaven forbid anyone ever comming up positive

for these worldwide diseases or their co-infect-

ious pals.

I believe the old Bowen lab was bought out by a

Florida University and is newly named something I

used to remember as having some "Lake" something

or other in their name. I never found out if that

lab was ever seriously or creditabley interested

in actually finding pathogens or if they were a

"Trollish", "Steere and Company(IDSA)" cohort in

the "crimes of lyme".

Thankfully-we hope-this Pittsburg or Sharonton

lab is legit according to the ILADS(burrascano)

"REAL" scientist/llmd's comments I've received

over this internet. I will be positively ogasmic

if and more to the point WHEN this lab can

achieve the above mentioned methodology for

eviction/extermination of our symbiotic-alien

"life robbers".

It may take me awhile to get back here with the

information on cost due to my needs as opposed to

someone just looking for preliminary evidence

they might need to convince out of ordinary

states where llmd's are'nt afraid to practice the

"trade" they went to school for so long to

acquire their liscenses.

Perhaps also, the "powers that be" who go around

falsely accuseing doctors who help us can now

relax and even possibly in retrospect be counter-

sued for previously harrassing good physicians.

Go get em Dr Jones! Get your practice and money

back from those creeps.

Nuff Said
Posted by lou (Member # 81) on :
The new culture test IS available now. It will not type the spirochetes, as tony has suggested would be the first step in doing testing as to which antibiotic would work best.

But it would tell you for sure that you were infected. It has a 20% false negative record, so not perfect, but better than anything else so far. I hear the cost is around $500.

Apart from knowing for sure and basing your decision to treat, a positive result presumably could be used with an insurance company.

However, those weasels may still say "yes, you have a spirochete and 3 weeks of treatment will cure you." Thus setting the stage, maybe, for having to repeat the culture test. But this is speculation on my part.
Posted by sk8ter (Member # 8671) on :
I have had this test done, my llmd was part of the clinical studies on it. It was fairly quick and they actually give you picture of the spiros on the culture medium .....
Posted by seibertneurolyme (Member # 6416) on :

Could you let us know exactly how the test results were reported -- what was the wording used? Does it just say borrelia spirochetes detected by culture or something similar?


Bea Seibert
Posted by sk8ter (Member # 8671) on :
Bea I will look tomorrow on the sheet I have
Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
Here are some notes collected from various sources.

Hope that helps.

[Big Grin]

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3