I have a tough time believing that alchohol is a friend of BB.
I believe that during late stage infection, yes, it is tolling on the immune system and can lead to greater spread of the disease. Once your immune system has ALREADY been compromised with low body temp and your WBC's have been infiltrated, then alcohol will be a major problem for you.
I could swear to you that I know people who have been bit multiple times and drink themselves to a drunken stupor. YET, these people never exhibit full blown symptoms. The trick is that they drink hard and occassionaly, allowing their immune systems to recoop.
When I mention alcohol, I don't mean Heiny or Buds, I mean the GOOD STUFF. Slivovitsa from the Slavic community, Russian Vodka, & the likes. I believe that it may kill off CO-INF and force BB to convert and cyst.
Anyone out there who has CONFIRMED Lyme and can drink without issues? Have any studies been done with alcohol and BB in vitro?
Posted by gmb (Member # 23562) on :
I believe that other good reasons to abstain or limit alcohol is that it is still a sugar/carb that can feed candida/yeast infections; and it taxes the liver which is already overworked with detox duties.
With that said I still have an occassional drink of wine or a good quality vodka or taquilia. But never a beer or any high sugar cordials. Boy do I really miss my snifter of zambuca, and a cup of strong black coffee after a good meal. 8^(
Just don't take any alcohol with Flagyl and other sister ABX which will make you violently ill.
gmb
Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
The problem with alcohol also is it's hard on the liver.
I found I was so toxic after treatment that it took a YEAR after treatment for me to be able to drink again. I would feel hungover before I had even drank enough to feel buzzed. That's how toxic I was.
I worked tons on detox. Now I can drink with no issues at all. I'm not a heavy drinker, but a couple glasses of wine or a couple mixed drinks does not bother me anymore.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lymedin2010: I have a tough time believing that alchohol is a friend of BB.
- You're RIGHT. It's NOT.
Posted by anuta (Member # 22646) on :
O, sixgoofykids, you just gave me hope for life after Lyme. I used to ehjoy my glass of wine so much!!!
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Anuta,
Remember to employ good LIVER SUPPORT at all times as both lyme and treatment can be very hard on the liver. Lyme raises the risk of developing hepatitis.
Liver support can help, well - the liver - but also the chance of successful treatment cycles. If the liver can't work, treatment can't either.
Good luck. -
Posted by Guido (Member # 22822) on :
quote:.... Have any studies been done with alcohol and BB in vitro?
Funny question .... Alcohol is one of the strongest bactericides around, that's why it's used for desinfection. It should work on Bb, too. Only trouble is: if you have a reasonable concentration of alcohol in your body to kill every Bb, you will be dead, too.
On the other hand, I believe it is a good explanation why alcohol is so badly tolerated when you have Lyme. It might be an instant Herx reaction because A FEW Bb might die from the alcohol.
Best regards, Guido
Posted by lymielauren28 (Member # 13742) on :
I agree with Six. I've had long periods of wellness and was able to drink with no problems whatsoever. I started backsliding about a month ago and I went to a wedding last weekend, had one drink (cranberry and vodka, mostly vodka ha) and it made me SICK. I mean, I felt awful. So I know, at least for now until I get back on track, I cannot drink ANY alcohol. It will likely be months for me, and that's ok.
Intersestingly, there have been times when I felt not so great and had a couple of drinks and felt wonderful afterwards - it seems to me that alcohol can have an inhibitory effect on Lyme. The problem is when you drink with Lyme you just don't know - it can make you feel better and provide temporary relief from symptoms or it can have the opposite effect and make you feel much, much worse. It's russion roulette with your body. Not worth it IMO - and as others have stated it's hard on your liver which is not good for any of us as we're so toxic to begin with.
Posted by axseptants (Member # 32296) on :
Interesting string. Thanks for bringing this up. When I started having symptoms 16 years ago, they were primarily peripheral neuropathy. I used to drink a couple of glasses of wine every afternoon just to deal with the pain. I just got a lyme Dx in May of this year. Over the years, I have been drinking socially, sometimes I have overdone it. Now that I have started Abx, I've decided to stop alcohol altogether. One of my doctors told me that, if I was going to drink, Vodka was the best choice because it is the most distilled of the liquors so it is least likely to promote yeast, etc. However, unfortuntately, liquors are dangerous for me because I will black out. Vodka and soda with lime is so "clean" tasting, you don't really even notice it and can over-imbibe very easily so I say BE CAREFUL.
I went to the beach this summer and ate and drank whatever I wanted, including gluten, dairy, beer, wine, etc. I had several drinks every day. It was the best I had felt in a long time. Go figure.
I do think alcohol is "Russian Roulette" for me. Sometimes, I can drink a lot and not have any feelings of drunkenness. Other times, I can totally black out. There doesn't seem to be a lot of rhyme and reason. It just affects me differently at different times. I wonder if this inconsistency in effects can be caused by lyme.
Posted by lymielauren28 (Member # 13742) on :
Ax - everything you described is me to a T. I went to the beach back in August and ate what I wanted, had beer, wine, mixed drinks, didn't get enough sleep etc. for a week - I felt amazing!!
You understood exactly what I meant by Russian roulette. I can go out one night and have several drinks and feel fine and a couple days later get halfway thru one beer and feel awful. I just never know. Strange!
Posted by Lymedin2010 (Member # 34322) on :
I just had a long talk with Tom Grier. He has spoken to many people & he too believes that early alcohol consumption may prevent Lyme symptoms from occurring or growing chronic.
Even his brother, who loves camping and got bit a few times was easily relieved of a few symptoms with Amoxy. He drinks a glass of wine a day.
I just got another member of my family who fell ill. They had 2-3 symptoms when I first got sick & I tried to warn this person. This year they landed in the hospital with a dozen Lyme symptoms. This person does not smoke or drink, and has gotten sick. I don't smoke or drink & I have all of this persons symptoms plus more.
So here we are 2 people who don't smoke or drink & who are the sickest. Both of us lead "healthy" lifestyles. Now compare this to the drinkers.
My father got bit years ago (in the 50's). He hunted and fished in an endemic areas for YEARS. He killed deer and butchered them with his bare hands (no gloves) & a sawzall to chop the animal up, with blood splattering all over.
My father smokes & drinks the heavy hitting alcohol. Not an alcoholic, but he enjoys his drink every so often & when he does he drinks the hard core stuff & loads up on it.
My mother got bit 2-3 times. She smokes, drinks espresso, & also loads up on occasions with the heavy alcoholic dosages. The only symptom she has is arthritis & she is in her late 50's.
I am not saying that alcohol consumption while chronically sick is a good idea, in fact it is more likely to be a toxic load and a big burden on the immune system and already stressed organs.
What I am saying is that good quality alchohol consumption prior & especially on initial infection (day of the bite), is less likely to place you in the chronic stage.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Men are less likely to become ill with Lyme than women. That may be part of your answer.
And perhaps women would be more prone to yeast.
No way I can get away with it.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Come on Haley, I am talking about pre-chronic stage. Lets say you are a big drinker & you get bit. You are unfortunate enough to get 5 organisms, 2 viruses, & a parasite.
If the alcohol kills even 2-3 of the organisms early on, then you stand a better chance of living longer without getting to that chronic stage.
I so wished that I had drank more!!!!!!! I would make a great alcoholic.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Alcohol does NOT kill infections in the body. In the presence of infection in the body, alcohol can kill the LIVER and brain cells much, much faster, though.
It is NEVER, ever a good idea to drink at any stage of any infection.
And, it's also never a good idea to drink when taking any medication. Alcohol totally changes how any Rx works in the body and, most often, can then lead to additional liver &/or kidney stress.
The liver and kidneys issues here are just huge - and so very important. Damage to those organs can result in life-long fatigue, trouble concentrating, etc. For life. -
Posted by Lymedin2010 (Member # 34322) on :
Keebler, I respect your opinion. I mentioned to Tom Grier what I thought about alcohol based on people around me who got bit & who don't have any or very few symptoms to speak of. As opposed to 2 strict non drinkers & non smokers, we both are the sickest.
I expected Tom to say, "What, are you crazy!" I was shocked at his response when he said that he has been seeing the same. He talks to dozens and hundreds of people over the course of 20 years & for him to say that has some weight in my book.
Even his own brother serves as an example when compared to himself.
So the drinking needs to have started prior & during the bite & at the early stages. Late stages I am sure will be more detrimental to many people, although I still hear stories where people confess to feeling better and keeping symptoms in check.
I believe that drinking causes some of the infections to die off & the result of what you feel is a grand herx. Perhaps too grand for your body to handle all in one shot.
What if you took a titration approach to drinking, just like we do our meds? Start slow & increase as you feel out the results.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Q: " you took a titration approach to drinking?
It is never a good idea to drink alcoholic beverages in the presence of infection.
No titration, no "training wheels" - it's just never a good idea. It can cause liver damage that could be permanent. -
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- This topic frequently comes up and it concerns me for many reason. I know what it's like to live with liver damage - and nothing can damage the liver as quickly, as badly as lyme (and all the other things that can go with it).
Liver damage can ruin a life. There is no need to risk that with things that are unnecesary or unhelpful, at the least.
But why so many want to drink so badly as to try to find all kinds of ways around it?
I sort of get it. Alcohol's effects have captured people for centuries. It can be a release valve, a party enhancer, a pain reducer a forget-me-not aid of sorts.
Temporarily.
But, there are other ways to feel good. There are other ways to "treat" if that is what one wonders alcohol might - just maybe - could do (but it cannot, I assure you).
Does alcohol in herbal tinctures matter? That can depend. For many, even that can be too much if multiple tinctures are used many times a day.
However, by swirling the tincture in warm water in a deep shallow mug to let the alcohol somewhat evaporate, that helps.
I do know one LL ND who does not want his patients with hepatitis & lyme to take tinctures other than many one or two for short time - and then with the warm water swirl approach but only for those herbs that only work in tincture form.
There are a few that only work as tincture (though some can work with glycerine instead of alcohol).
As MANY With lyme have variations of PORPHYRIA, a metabolic liver / enzyme dysfunction - even a little alcohol can clobber the liver and brain and nerve cells fast - and leave damage.
"secondary" porphyria is frequent with lyme, Cpn and other chronic stealth infections.
There's just so much to consider and my attempts are to help others not die the horrible death my mother did. I understand why she had to drink. She had undiagnosed HIV - not known until the last week of her life. She needed pain relief and emotional calming that no doctor offered her.
But the liver damage made that all the more worse. She had contracted hepatitis years before.
When the liver stops working, it's a terrible way to live, or die. When the liver is damaged, it affects so much that we have no clue about until too late.
Lyme can CAUSE hepatitis. And this fact is one that is not widely recognized as there's just so much damage that lyme causes that it all seems to be rolled together.
Certain medications can CAUSE hepatitis, too. Some of the Rx that are needed to treat lyme.
So this complicates the matter all the more.
This I know: it is absolutley imperative to take the fullest measure to protect the liver as much as possible when treating lyme because both the infection (and others that tag along) and the treatment can damage the liver.
And it's sheer misery living with a liver that cannot work effectively. Period. -
Posted by Harmony (Member # 32424) on :
If tinctures contain too much alcohol, then Kombucha is probably out, too, right?
The GingerAid flavor from GT is the only "soft drink" I enjoy (only water and decaf green tea other than that). I think it helps me feel less sick sometimes, but I do want to protect the liver!
What do you think?
Posted by dal123 (Member # 6313) on :
So much BS. Here's a few to chew on:
1. A 78 year old lady who is a very tough pistol packing momma rancher presented with stomach problems, had a biopsy that was suggestive of cancer. This woman refused to do further surgeries & chemo. Instead, she tried the Everclear cure: 1 shot twice a day. Her partner was a bit frustrated with her for doing this. Her symptoms cleared up.
2. These 2 women went to the liquor store for more Everclear. Upon relating her story to the liquor clerks, they told her a man who was in a wheel chair came in and purchased Everclear, saying his friend told him it would "help him".
Well, THREE MONTHS Later this guy in a wheel chair WALKED into the booze store and bought more everclear saying it "CURED HIM"..
I use everclear mixed with water as a disinfectant for everything.
Cheers!
Posted by Lymedin2010 (Member # 34322) on :
I did hear about the EverClear stories. Where are the articles though? I would love to read them.
All I say is have an open mind. Remember how we all got into this situation. Other "normal" people did not believe others who were sick with this wretched disease & wrote them off.
"Normal" doctors are writing the LLMD's & Lyme community off. Many LLMD's are writing the fact that we may be carrying parasites off.
Most of us are writing the ability of Alcohol to POSSIBLY turn our tide in our favor.
I never said alcohol is the cure, but WHAT IF?
What if the effects of alcohol are that drastic & I too have experienced the effects. It cannot be from toxicity, it feels more as if it is DIE OFF!!!!!
When I get my video rig on my microscope, I plan to run some tests. We shall see.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- "Most of us are writing the ability of Alcohol to POSSIBLY turn our tide in our favor." (end quote)
This is not correct information.
Just in case there are those new to lyme reading this, it's important to know that it's vital to avoid alcohol during treatment. -
Posted by Lymedin2010 (Member # 34322) on :
In terms of warning others, YES. DO NOT DRINK alcohol if you are chronically ill with Lyme. It has been said MANY times & by the great Dr. Burrascano & I tend to believe much of what he has said.
But the reason for this thread is a mere question.....WHAT IF? Especially on the basis of the outcome of some drinkers.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
It should work on Bb, too. Only trouble is: if you have a reasonable concentration of alcohol in your body to kill every Bb, you will be dead, too.