This is topic Is low fat diet the answer? Dr. F thinks so. in forum Medical Questions at LymeNet Flash.

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Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
I got this link below from another blog (thanks James).

Below is an interesting interview by doctors Marc Bramam and Dr F regarding a low fat vegan diet being key to reducing biofilms. After reading this, I can't help but wonder if protomyxzoa biofilm is protecting lyme and company.

Also, he's not a fan of magnesium supplements.

So, I wonder how his patients can eat McDougall and Campbell diets and not get yeast? I guess it's possible for most of his patients.

So maybe this is the answer: McDougall and Campbell diets and a non-antibiotic protocol, perhaps Buhner, Byron white or Cowden. I wish I had seen this a year ago (yeast issues ever since I started abx). I would have tried it (I was a vegan back then, but a bad one--I ate vegan carrot cake, chips, etc-ha ha).

I actually went vegan after one tick bite and felt better. Unfortunately, I got bit again. The last tick gave me babs.

This makes me want to try it though. I'm already on herbs, but have to figure out a way to do this with the yeast (slowly?).

**edited name of LLMD**

[ 06-24-2012, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: Catgirl ]
Posted by annxyzz (Member # 20404) on :
You could try it for six months and monitor your response .

Frankly , we really do not know anything conclusively . The fact that some people "test positive " for this and have ZERO symptoms causes me to question how significant this finding is . I also do not understand throwing antibiotics ( his interview ) at something that he admits can not be eradicated . If it can not cure the " protozoa" then advising ABX a long time is setting the patient up for NEW PROBLEMS . ABX are not "vitamins " or "good for you " supplements .

Dr F's knowledge of his organism seems really limited at this time .

One thing I have observed here is an astounding number of posts that indicate the ABX prescribed are not working ...... and that so many have taken them several years and are still not close to recovery . This causes any logical person to question if we really know our enemy .
Posted by Brussels (Member # 13480) on :
Cat girl, the article was pretty interesting!Thanks for sharing it!!

It makes me think that Rechts regulat, the product which contains many enzymes, recommended by dr. K., that makes the blood flow better, could be a life saviour.

It is also believed to be a bio film breaker, if my memory is good.

I never could stop it, even though I have no lyme anymore. Somehow Recths keeps testing good and I take it as a food supplement.

From all the hundreds of substances I took against lyme, coinfections, immune regulators, cleansers, well, only a few remained, and Rechts is one.

It is a passionate article, and makes us think about the connection of low fat diet too, and health or immune system function (not only because we starve the bugs in my opinion).

If you ever fasted on nothing or only a fruit a day (I did that), you see immediately how the immune system goes MUCH BETTER very fast. And the low fat diet could be a sort of fasting, possibly?

I know that a HIGH fat diet helps somehow with herxheimer and with candida. At least for me. I could eat butter in spoons or Ghee butter in high amounts, or egg after egg when I was herxing badly. That could calm the herxes, many times, it did.

And I think that dr. K. is of opinion that no heavy metal detox can go on without fats.

I wonder if olive oil and plant fats are fine, in dr. F's low fat diet list...

Or all fats are bad, what do you think?

does someone know what are the forbidden items in dr. F.'s strict diet plan??
Posted by emla999/Lyme (Member # 12606) on :
Annxyzz said...

One thing I have observed here is an astounding number of posts that indicate the ABX prescribed are not working ...... and that so many have taken them several years and are still not close to recovery. This causes any logical person to question if we really know our enemy.

I highly agree with your statement because after years of taking numerous antibiotics, antiparasite drugs, antifungal drugs, antiviral compounds, chelators, binders, herbs and numerous other supplements my health problems were only slightly better than before I started taking all of that stuff. But then last year I come across Matt Stone's blog. And his views on what actually causes chronic health problems and what you should do to help heal those chronic health problems were sort a "180 degree" turn from what I had been doing all of those years. And then I decided to basically stop taking all of the various drugs, supplements and all of the other stuff that I had been taking for years and then I started to follow a few of Matt's suggestion which basically involves dietary changes that increase your body temperature and increase your metabolism.

And for me this consists of drinking much less water than I used to and eating alot more carbs/sugars than I used to and eating a little more salt than I used to plus a few other minor things. And now I fell profoundly better. But if I want to feel like crap again all that I have to do is start drinking more water and eat less carbs while taking a boat load of supplements and/or various antimicrobial compounds again. If I do that then alot of my old symptoms will just start to flare back up.

So Annxyzz, your statement rang true with me, do we really know our enemy?

Posted by nefferdun (Member # 20157) on :
Three months ago I started the low fat vegan diet and I have gotten much better so I would say it works. I have no problem with yeast but I am not on abx right now.

I learned a lot about carbs when my son was diagnosed with diabetes. Beans, lentils, brown rice, quinoa etc are not going to give you yeast because they do not raise the blood sugar quickly. They are low to medium on the GI.

People also worry about not getting enough "good fats". You are allowed 15 grams of fat on the diet. A capsule of flax oil has a fraction of that. The highest source of omega 3 fatty acids is chia seeds and they also have a lot of protein.

There are two other things that are milestones in my recovery. I had the methyl cycle mutations tests so I am fixing those pathways so I detox better and can assimilate the nutrients I need to be healthy. That also requires a vegan diet.

I started stromectol about 3 weeks ago and it has stopped all my symptoms. I just can't run. As I couldn't climb the stairs 3 months ago, it is expected not to have all my stamina back. I was never much of a runner anyway.

I can think better, I have more motivation and I don't get tired. I have been working really hard the last couple of weeks with no burn out.

So, with the diet I have more energy, better mental clarity, no yeast, and generally feel happier.

Oh yes, I also started LDN and that stopped my thyroid problem. I now have a normal temperature for the first time in my life.
Posted by Haley (Member # 22008) on :
Wow, Nefferdun... that is great news. makes me want to go back on the low fat diet. I did feel good but I could not sustain. I lost too much weight and my body needed more protein.

Catgirl - you should watch forks over knives. Great show about the benefits of a low fat diet.
Posted by lyme in Putnam (Member # 11561) on :
I'm happy for you neff. Happy you're on the upswing side.
Posted by hadlyme (Member # 6364) on :
My abx ARE working. That and my low fat diet keep me just fine.

I have never taken anything else for biofilm busting. Just the low fat, thin those walls out and hit them with my rotation of maintenance of zith, malarone and diflucan.

I'm as 'healthy' as I can be with this.

Why not eat low fat instead of popping another pill for biofilm? You all seem to be on the 'natural' kick, so why not eat whole foods and take one less pill?

And yes, I do not take mag. as a suppliment any longer. I am still ok with those levels too.

I walk 2 miles a day, work fulltime.... pretty normal. And if that means taking what I am for a lifetime, I'm ok with living normal with those things.

You all need to read up on the articles on the Fry bug before you start making statements about it that are not correct.

What's good for my body might not be good for yours, but we all need to do what we 'think' is best for ourselves.

And by the way.. dr. f knowledge is not limited.... If only you knew...... I have medical papers from him for other dr.s that I can pass out. I can not share those with the public. But believe me, there's not limit in what his brain knows on this topic. He had normal patients that all of a sudden got sick from bug bites and were never the same after those bites. That was many many years ago, and many many years of research. This isn't 'lyme' that he's studying. It's chronic diseases.

Study up on it, it's interesting to say the least how a dr. 'wants' to figure this out, instead of JUST treating it like other llmds.
Posted by lymielauren28 (Member # 13742) on :

How do you stay on a low fat diet and take in enough fat so that the Malarone absorbs properly in your system? This is my dilemma...
Posted by hadlyme (Member # 6364) on :
I do not worry about eating fat with my malarone. We are different in all aspects in this matter.

If you eat fat, you're making the biofilm thicker and the malarone will not hit it as well.

I asked my llmd about this. He stated that 'fat will make the biofilm thicker, it's up to you to eat fat with malarone". He can't legally say not to, when the RX tells you to do it. I read between the lines of what he was saying and I do not worry about taking fat with it.

Up to you if you still want to. I choose not to. We need to do what we think is right for our bodies.
Posted by lymielauren28 (Member # 13742) on :

How do you stay on a low fat diet and take in enough fat so that the Malarone absorbs properly in your system? This is my dilemma...
Posted by hadlyme (Member # 6364) on :
I answered this, for me I do not take it, it still works. I'm pretty 'healthy' for having this disease. Plain and simple. I do not eat fat with malarone. It still works.
Posted by annxyzz (Member # 20404) on :
hadlyme : May I RESPECTFULLY say that we do not really know that the ABX "are working " until months or maybe a year after we discontinue them .

It may be that some people feel better after taking them . And there are a few people who TRULY recover. Unfortunately , it is a fact and not my opinion that most people relapse when they the ABX are removed . That is why so many doctors will not use them very long and that is the stated opinion of many of the hallowed "lyme experts " so many people here quote .

Not many people with a chronic illness can work full time and manage a fitness routine . Sounds like you function like a healthy person!

Blessings to each seeker here .

[ 06-26-2012, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: annxyzz ]
Posted by annxyzz (Member # 20404) on :
hadlyme : I have read Dr F's interviews . He is repeatedly asked how to get rid of the organism.
He states that he has not found a way to eradicate it . His patients seem to feel better with a low fat diet , but the organism is not eradicated by anything he has tried on it , including ABX . That is what I read more than once .

I concluded he has identified an organism , tried a lot of drugs against it , and CONJECTURES that it helps to lower fat intake .
I do hope he finds more specifics that will shed light on its effect with chronic / autoimmune illness .
Posted by annxyzz (Member # 20404) on :
Emla : Who is Matt Stone ? What ideas has he shared that appear to be making you feel you are improving ?

I would like toknow also , if possible , what improvements you are seeing- particularly related to fatigue.

Thank you for sharing !
Posted by annxyzz (Member # 20404) on :
Nefferdun : I find your personal experience fascinating . Same with Gael (GLM ) who took ABX for 4 YEARS and did not improve . When she quit them and started salt / C and began treating what she believed may be parasites , she improved markedly .

I also am fascinated by Dr Eva Sapi's study of ticks that are infected with filaria , a parasite , and the fact that mosquitoes studied often carry parasite bacteria .

I also read ( who knows if this is "vetted " ) that a study was done that showed 66 % of CFS patients were infected with a PARASITE - lungworm. The symptoms are quite similar to babesia as they were described . I know the CFS study was a real scientific one with "controls " bur do not know if the lungworm/ cfs patients have improved with treatment . If anyone knows the answer, I hope they will share here .
Posted by emla999/Lyme (Member # 12606) on :

Matt Stone is a guy that has a blog called "180 Degree Health". And he has a rather different view on what he belives is the underlying cause of many chronic health problems. Actually, many of Matt's views and suggestions are contradictory to what you will read here. To Matt, body temperature, metabolism and thus your eating and water drinking habits play a huge role in the development of chronic health problems. *** Matt was where I first learned about the usefulness of using a refractometer and a conductivity meter when it comes to trying to determine how much salt, water and sugar/carbs we should be ingesting.

A few links describing some of Matt's view:

On eating more salt

On water drinking

Unfortunately, it's hard to find all of Matt's suggestions and views on his blog unless you are prepared to read every post and ever comment in the comment section for the past couple of years. Though, his ebooks, probably have alot of that info in them.

Now, I first learned of Matt's views on health via Russell Fariss's yahoo group, "Infection-Cortisol".

At that time Matt seemed to be researching the role that chronic infections played on the development of chronic health problems but eventually Matt seemed to come to the conclusion that your body temperature and metabolism played an important role on whether or not your body suffered ill effects from chronic infections such as Lyme Disease. So, to him if you correct your body temperature and metabolism then your body will function normally again and then your body will be able to better cope with those chronic infections and your symptoms may lessen or go away completely. So, high titer levels of various pathogens may actually be a side effect and not the direct cause of many of the chronic health ailments that some people are attributing to being caused by chronic infections.

And for me personally, after utilizing many of Matt's suggestions I have also come to believe this may be the case for some people.


[ 06-26-2012, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: emla999/Lyme ]
Posted by hadlyme (Member # 6364) on :
May I RESPECTFULLY disagree with you Annx.

I was in remission and feeling Great for 9 yrs after my first go round with abx (for 2yrs worth).

We will NEVER eradicate ANY of these diseases. Do you really realize that? Why pick on the fry bug saying it can not be rid of? Lyme, babs,bart.. will NEVER be out of anyone's system.

WE CAN put things into remission. And to help that along, abx is absolutely needed. Why are you so down on abx and this eradicated thing anyway?

Yes, I'm as 'healthy' as I am because of abx and antimalaria meds. I will keep myself in a remission state with those drugs if I want to live a normal life. I have no problem with that.

If you get into any info on F labs or the dr. you will find he is NOT a lyme dr. He is with the ILADS, but his focus is Chronic Diseases. That is ALS, MS, CFS, Parkinsons, Vector Borne diseases...Austim, you name it. He is trying to figure out what triggers autoimmune. He has large grants right now to study ALS and his bug.

I was one of his tests to see what my body temp was for months. I would take my temp every morning before getting out of bed. Then we did Armour and Ioderal and did the same temp reading for months.

This disease from a vector can and will screw up all our body parts if left untreated.

Keeping it maintained, one can lead a pretty normal life. If you find a dr. that says he can get rid of any of these vector diseases, then I have some ocean front property in MT that I'd like to sell you.

My opinion... I'm not a dr. nor a scientist. I do not have a medical degree. I will leave the scientific answers to those that do.
Posted by baileypup (Member # 22824) on :
We all have bacteria or cancer cells that can live harmoniously in our bodies. It's when they get out of balance that we have a problem.

So, it makes sense that we will never eradicate these bugs, but learn to boost our immune system and live healthy, balanced lives.
Posted by canefan17 (Member # 22149) on :
Going on a low fat diet for us skinny guys/gals with CNS/Brain deterioration is very risky imo.

I don't have to tell you guys how important fats and cholesterol are for the brain, nerves, myelin sheath, etc etc.
Posted by hadlyme (Member # 6364) on :
To clarify, it's not a diet. It's a way of eating. Healthy, whole foods, lower fat grams.

And with this protozoan, fats and cholesterol are just one thing that will help make it thrive.

So, important to what we're used to thinking for our bodies, and newly important to how we're finding out it doesn't help us.

But, please, everyone needs to do what is best for their bodies. We know we all react differently to any of this. Our brains have to comprehend and be on board if we do anything differently.
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
I can't help but wonder (I used to be vegan) if I had kept up with my diet, but made it low fat like Dr. F. recommends, cut way back on sugar and gluten, added in some light weights like Burrascano suggests, and incorporated the salt/c protocol what shape I would be in today.

I can't wait to talk to my doc about this bug.
Posted by Haley (Member # 22008) on :
Emla- I'm fascinated by the stuff you are posting. My first clue as to why I might need more salt was how much better I felt after taking liquid minerals. This was confirmed by certain blood tests.

I don't have time to read the entire article on how much water to drink. How many glasses per a day does he recommend?

This is his bold statement:

Drinking the standard amount of water recommended to the masses can literally ruin ones life physically and emotionally. This is not overly sensationalized shock talk. This is really happening. And few ever connect the water dots to their mediocre health, crappy mood, and unstable mental state.

A note on Dr. F. - I am always following what Dr. F says as he is unique in the sense that he is also a microbiologist and he is looking at his patients blood under the microscope. LLMDs do not do this.

Also - frankly, I think his research on low fat may have stemmed from prior research (just a guess). There is one bacteria that can not survive without cholosterol. Of course I don't remember what it is [Wink]
Posted by MichaelTampa (Member # 24868) on :
Count me as someone who herxed more on this "diet" than any other treatment I've had to date, so much so I had to back off and slowly go at it.

Still, I really think for most this will, at best, be a temporary diet. I just don't think one can be healthy long-term such little fat. Many many whole foods need to be excluded to reach this low level of fat.
Posted by canefan17 (Member # 22149) on :
The more malnourished the individual the more he/she will eat/drink.
Posted by emla999/Lyme (Member # 12606) on :

Matt Stone's water intake reccommendations are very individualized. But basically if the color of your urine is crystal clear then this could indicate that you are drinking too much water. Though, if you are taking supplements and/or medication then it can be difficult to determine what the true color of your urine is. Also, if you are having to urinate more than once in a 2-3 hour time period then this could also be an indication that you are drinking too many fluids.

Matt has also suggested that you use a refractometer to determine whether or not you are ingesting too much water/fluids. The refractometer will measure the "specific gravity" of your urine and this coresponds to your body's hydration status. The refractometer is very easy to use and it only takes a few minutes to measure your urine with and you can get basic refractometer for around $30.00 on ebay.

In my opinion a refractometer is nearly as useful as a thermometer.

And by the way, some common symptoms over being overhydrated are, frequent urination, headaches, electrolyte/ mineral imbalances such as hyponatremia, insomnia, personality changes, cold hands and feet, dizziness and low antidiuretic hormone production (ADH).

Some more videos where Matt Stone discusses the side effects of drinking too much water.

Also, since beverages such as soft drinks, coffee, tea, fruit, beer, vegeatableand fruit juice all contain alot of water in them and since regular drinking water is so easily available to most people in this country nowadays I can't help but wonder how much water/fluids do people of today ingest as compared to people that were living 100 - 150 years ago?

I am guessing that modern people probably consume more water/fluids than people used to..... and possibly alot more. Plus people didn't have air conditioners back then and they lived and worked outdoors alot so they probably sweated out alot of the water that they did drink.

So, are modern humans fluid intake contributing to the development of chronic health problems??

Posted by surprise (Member # 34987) on :
I thought about low fat today, but ate a GF protein bar
craved sun butter (fat) so ate some,
went to make organic popcorn,
realized I had put organic coconut oil 1/4 inch thick on bottom of the pan.
Having grass fed chicken for dinner.

I guess my point is, I am very thin, and my body wants these things.

But, like when I have yeast overgrowth, my body (the yeast)
crave yeast food.

Hmmm. Food for thought.
Posted by nefferdun (Member # 20157) on :
Most of the processed vegetable fats, including olive oil, are full of omega 6 fatty acids which are inflammatory and not good for you. I think grape seed oil is ok. Flax is good because it is full of omega 3 fatty acids but it tastes terrible and the good stuff is destroyed when you cook with it. Coconut oil is supposed to be good for your brain but when I was pigging out on it, my brain fog did not improve at all.

If you want omega 3's ,eat chia seeds. You can use them to thicken things and as an egg replacement. They have more omega 3 than any other source.

Protomyxzoa multiplies 100 times faster with fat. If you don't have protomyxzoa then you need not worry about eating healthy fats but if you do, then even the good fats are feeding it and killing you.

Protomyxzoa causes dementia. My brain has cleared up since starting the diet and the methyl cycle mutation supplements. Biofilm makes the blood thick which causes pain, including nerve pain. Before the diet my legs were hurting. My pain is gone. No muscle spasms. No headaches.

You don't need to worry about not getting enough good fats and you can get plenty of protein and calories (so you don't lose weight), if you eat whole grains and legumes.

I think it is a mental thing - people do not want to believe this works because it sounds so severe but the results are worth it. I have gotten back to planning a life rather than just struggling to keep it.

It is hard. I just do my best. I believe the other things are equally important - MC supplements, LDN for my thyroid and the stromectol.
Posted by surprise (Member # 34987) on :
I am really happy for you Nefferdun-

chronic fatigue is a core issue here.

Since I am positive, I should at least really try- would love to have your energy level.
Posted by annxyzz (Member # 20404) on :
nefferdun : How much stromectol do you take ? And do you take it every day ? Do you have any idea how long it is safe to take it ?

Have you tried adding some salt / c ? I think I may try that idea. So glad you feel better and are sharing some good news!
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
Neff, I hear you about the mental thing. There is one more thing that keeps me from totally embracing it though--yeast. I can't eat very many beans without getting yeast, which is probably why even Doc. Burrascano limits them on his anti candida diet.

I can't eat any other starch other than quinoa. I've tried them all, buckwheat groats, etc. You name it, it gives me yeast. I don't think I'm alone with this either. That is why I am no longer a vegan. It wasn't a choice. It was a necessity in order to survive.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
It's really hard to do a yeast free diet when you are a vegan... Even if you cut everything out that causes yeast - there is still enough yeast in the body to create problems. I think it has to do with whether it's overgrowing. I think it becomes pathogenic if it grows out of control...

I have to go back & dig up the links but there is info about it on the internet. I don't know how to get rid of it permanently. Maybe Diflucan? All of the things we have that are pathogenic just overwhelm the body - so, all of these things becaome a problem after a while.

The body needs some balance to be able to fight these things off. We are always fighting something - so, we get depleted & the immune system gets overwhelmed... Parasites, pathogens, heavy metals, yeasts, mold, fungus, chemicals take their toll after a while. Now, we have to worry about radiation from Fukishima... Who knows what chimeras have been released into the public or how to treat them?

How about Amazon Rainforest herbs? Some of them are anti-protozoa.

Diet is very individual. I think people, as they get older, may require less protein. I don't know about fats... It depends on whether one is male, female, childbearing years, elderly, a child... It also may depend on genetics...?

I've followed alot of "theories" about diet that seemed logical in my life - but some of them were way off - which I later found out... It's hard to tell with diet. I guess if someone feels better - it's not a bad thing.

The human body is adaptable. We can survive on alot of things & different concepts of diet. I don't know about chemicals, high fructose corn syrup, hydrogenated oils, or GMOs, though.
Posted by lymeboy (Member # 24769) on :
Diet is a highly controversial subject. There are a lot of different schools of thought. I wonder if they all have their pluses and minuses. For me, meat and veggies with no sugar and low carbs has been a pretty good regimen. Perhaps one day I'll give vegan diet a try. Not sure if changing to vegan would be a good thing for me now, while treating.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
Yeah, I think you need a good source of protein to heal some of the damage done by pathogens. I agree that meat & veggies are a good diet concept.

I think I need to add some carbs like rice, bread or pasta to have some bulk. I tried a very clean diet (juicing, organic, lot of veggies, etc.) for a while & it didn't seem to make much of a difference. I was spending like 4-5 hours a day on cooking, juicing, shopping, doing dishes... It was too much.

So, it's hard to say if all of this diet stuff really works... Eating alot of junk, prepared foods, etc. isn't the best things to do, either. I know some people who do pretty well on rice, veggies, sardines, eggs, yogurt...

I don't like to live with no ice cream or some treat or coffee. I just like them... It kind of takes the joy out of life if you don't have dessert every so often.
Posted by nefferdun (Member # 20157) on :
That is exactly what I mean about the mental thing. You feel you are going to be deprived so you rationalize it is going to be bad for you and don't even try it.

As for ice cream, you can freeze bananas and berries and blend them in a vita-mix (or some other super blender) with some pomegranate juice for an unbelievable sorbet. If you add plain yogurt (a cheat I do not and then) you have fantastic frozen yogurt.

You just have to re-educate yourself. We have been brain washed to believe meat is good for you, we need meat for protein and the more meat you eat, the stronger you will be. It isn't true. There are olympic athletes that do not eat meat. There are children raised on vegan diets that are brilliant, strong, tall and healthy.

So what it comes down to, how does it make you feel? Could you trade hamburger for real energy, the ability to think clearly and a pain free body? It THAT worth the effort to give it a try?

I am off all abx right now and yeast is not a problem. I believe you will recover faster on low fat vegan and will need less antibiotic support while you are doing it. You will be breaking down the biofilm that is protecting the pathogens. The medications you are taking will be better able to penetrate deeply into the tissues to get the infections. You will be better able to detox.

If you are on abx, Difulcan should control yeast. I like stromectol because it does not cause candida. Eat foods that are low to medium on the glycemic index and you should be fine.

Being off the abx, I can eat a lot of fruit with no problem. I also eat some honey and maple syrup. I just started sprouting wheat and making my own sprouted grain bread. There are a lot of foods I really love on this diet. When I eat something - even a soup - that has sauted vegetables, it tastes greasy.
Posted by MichaelTampa (Member # 24868) on :
Such an interesting topic to me.

If one wanted 2000 calories a day, doing this solely from quinoa, this would provide 33 grams of fat, quite a bit more than the 15 grams. Many fruits has less fat grams per calorie than grains do, so if someone can really handle fruits, this would be possible.

Still, whether this provides the needed fats in the diet long-term, I am skeptical. I did this about 6 weeks before my skin started getting very dry and there were other signals that told me time to get off at that time.

Even then, due to misunderstanding these Dr. F. guidelines, I was targeting 15% of calories from fat, which did end up at about 33 grams a day. I had enormous herx and benefit. So, I want to pass that on for those considering this. Going straight to 15 grams, you may kill so many bugs right away, you might not be ready for that, maybe try slowly, and maybe there is real benefit even if you can't get that low.

Cheers, neff, for going at this. I am curious how long you've been at it and how your skin is doing. I am certainly hoping it works out and looking forward to hearing more over time.

For me, my body seems to be crying out for something in the nature of a juice fast for the coming days. I'll start this weekend and see how long it goes. Not sure how much fruit I'll be able to handle, and therefore energy may be an issue, but something I want to try. I have had many signs my body is struggling recently to detox, so that is mostly the focus. Of course fat will be way down during this process, and I'll see how long I can keep it in the Dr. F. range.
Posted by RC1 (Member # 31923) on :
I am on this diet too. I first started with cutting back on fat, then shooting for the 15 grams a day. I did this for a couple of months, then took out the meat.

I was in the middle of treating a big Bart relapse and was herxing Bart at the time I went low fat, so I can't say for sure that I herxed Fry bug. The herx was long and hard, which makes me think that it wasn't Bart alone.

The thing that I know for sure is that when I quit meat I noticed a huge improvement. It started the first night I didn't have meat for dinner.

I read on this board about tick bites and developing meat allergies, so that could be why I has such a noticeable improvement.

I'm pretty open to trying anything that might help, for me it was just an experiment. Turns out it is getting me back to almost normal. Still have some Bart and Babs symptoms and am still treating. The inflammation that I was having is way down.

The diet is not easy but I am adjusting to it. I allow my self a cheat every 2 weeks or so. For me it's gluten free veggie pizza at my favorite pizza joint.

I eat a ton of veggies, beans, lentils, brown rice, and oatmeal for breakfast. No sugar, I use Stevia to sweeten. At first I was eating constantly but now 3 meals and snacks in between.

This got me another 10% if not more. I'm hoping that when I get the Babs and Bart cleaned up I'll be done.

I should also mention that I am doing a pretty rigorous work out routine every other day of power yoga and weight lifting.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
I was a vegetarian for a long time... Like 20 years maybe. I have eaten "healthy" food since I was a teenager. So, I'm not adverse to cutting out the "standard Western diet" junkfood stuff. I followed alot of so-called health gurus, nutritionists, etc. I read alot about food, cooking, juicing, fasting, herbs, etc. since I was a teenager & I'm 50 now.

What I find is that changes in diet has not cured any of my real health issues. So if I have a cappuchino or a brownie - I don't feel much different then if I make a bender drink with fruit & yogurt. I used to drink juices alot... There's controvercy about that, too - like if the produce is organic or if carrots have too much sugar...

When you add in whether things are washed properly & if they have parasite eggs - it kind of makes me wonder... I know people who eat alot of "junk" & they seem "healthier" than me...

So, who knows if these stict concepts of diet really accomplish anything. I guess you just have to try it & see. I guess you can make a decision after 6 months or so to see if it helps.
Posted by lymeboy (Member # 24769) on :
The more we learn about "junkfood" the more apparent it is that no one should really be eating it.
Posted by surprise (Member # 34987) on :
I don't know, I don't see it here, people I see eating 'junk'

being of seemingly better health. I see them obese.

And sadly, many of them are choosing those foods because of price.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
Interesting article about this protozoan -

Marnie - it's not Lyme, it's Protomyxzoa rheumatica.


And really, this type of organism we think is a little different than what we are used to dealing with genetically. And it is just a unique organism.

Its a slime forming complex protozoan, trying to become a helminth [parasitic worm], trying to become a worm. And that may suggest why it is really resistant to a variety of different medications.

Its a tough bug. It has a lot of gene sequences that are very, very similar to human. And that is probably the confounding aspect to it. Because it has resiliency of human tissue, and it has similar requirements.

And this is probably an organism that developed over the eons and borrowed genes from its hosts. And, you know, kept some that it liked, and discarded some it didnt like. And of course its got its own genetic information, and its, you know, its progenitor with some ameba, or some protozoan in the past.

But it is a little more complex than say, malaria or babesiosis genetically. Actually it is sort of in-between, again, a helminth and a malarial type organism.


Dr. F also says saunas or hot tubs are good...

Might be transmitted by mosquitos & ticks....?

He hasn't looked into herbs at all as per the article. Mainly, low fat diet & abx...



B: So are you actually able to eradicate it in people, or is it an indefinite...?

Dr. F: We cannot eradicate it in patients, as far as we know, and we cannot eradicate it completely in the test tube yet with any known agents that could be delivered in therapeutic doses.

Now we have some patients who are feeling very well, who, where by our normal procedure, we cant find evidence of disease, but if we go through a sample and keep looking, and looking and looking we can find some.

Most patients that are ill, with our technology its very easy to detect disease. These patients that are doing much, much better, who are on a low fat diet, were able to find it, though rarely in those patients. So I cannot say that we have eradicated it in any patients.

My patients who do great, who are on a low fat diet, if they start eating a regular American diet again, they relapse. So I have not cured anybody.


Just as per my own thoughts - Why not look into more herbal anti-parasite treatments like from the Amazon, China or India? These cultures have been dealing with parasites for centuries.

Another thing - Dr. F was pretty clear of protecting his own intellectual property in this discovery. We live in a capitalistic society - so that's OK but it is kind of limiting. Just my thoughts... I guess he has to proceed in the way that is prescribed by "our" system.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :

As per junk food... Maybe older people had a better start with foods that were purer (less agri-biz chemicals) or had more nutrients (the soil wasn't as depleted 50 years ago)...?

If young people start off eatin alot of junk stuff - it's just going to go downhill for them in the future. I saw alot of really obese people when I lived in the south. I can see that these foods are cheaper & people are stuffing themselves with it. I agree with you, suprise.

I'm just saying - be moderate & try to be healthy... I have come across some food faschists in my time. The guidelines change & we do need some perks now & then. Sometimes, a brownie & a cappuchino can really make a person's day.
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
Before attempting a very restrictive diet PLEASE do your "homework" and evaluate carefully the pros and cons...know the benefits as well as the dangers.

"While the American Heart Association recommends 25 percent to 35 percent of your daily calories come from fat, on the McDougall diet, less than 10 percent of your daily caloric intake is fat.

You should speak to your health-care provider about the benefits of monounsaturated fats and Omega-3 fatty acids
before choosing the McDougall diet." scroll down to research

The last one is really Steve Jobs.

BTW...DNA which is also in biofilms is made up of amino acids. Any food that has protein contains amino acids i.e., Beans , legumes, grains, nuts, seeds...and the carbs and biofilms and in a veg. diet too.

Dr.F found a new pathogen? Has this been confirmed by other microbiologists? I can't find any links other than those tied to him. One would think the discovery of a new pathogen would make MAJOR news.

The association of pathogens with disease can be a complex and controversial process,

in some cases requiring decades or even centuries to achieve. Wikipedia.

Dr.F seems to be taking a giant leap.

trfogey's comments here makes me very...leary:

Please don't shoot me for being skeptical.

[ 06-29-2012, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: Marnie ]
Posted by RC1 (Member # 31923) on :
Marnie, you would think discovering a new pathogen would make major news, but it won't. It won't because mainstream medicine is very slow to accept anything new, or different.

It will make major news when a drug company discovers a "treatment" for it.

The earth was flat for a very long time.
Posted by emla999/Lyme (Member # 12606) on :
Since eating alot of polyunsaturated Omega 6 fats is generally considered to be bad for your health. Could some of the health benefits of Dr. F's lowfat diet primarily or at least in part be due to the overall lower consumption of the omega 6 fatty acids?

Has Dr. F had his patients try to just lower their consumption of the omega 6 fatty acids but eat the same amont of other types of fats such as the omega 3's and saturated fats?

Or does he think that all types of fats should be minimized?

Posted by emla999/Lyme (Member # 12606) on :

That link about Steve Jobs eating a Desn Ornish, low fat diet to treat his cancer was rather interesting to me because a scientist at Boston College seems to think the opposite.

Dr. Seyfried's research seems to indicate that eating a low caloried ketogenic (very high fat/low carb) diet can be helpful in treating cancer.

Posted by emla999/Lyme (Member # 12606) on :
Lyme and other pathogens and possiblly even Dr. F's FL1953 have been considered by some to play a role in the development of neurological diseases such as Alzheimer disease, Parkinson disease, MS and etc. If this is the case, then maybe some people would benefit from eating a diet that was high in fat rather than eatingf a diet that was low in fat. Though the type of fat ingested may be important because omega 6's seem to be bad news.

The ketogenic diet as a treatment paradigm for diverse neurological disorders.

***A ketogenic diet is a very high fat type of diet.

Posted by nefferdun (Member # 20157) on :
Protomyxzoa thrives on fat and multiplies 100 times faster. This particular disease is best treated with a low fat vegan diet. That does not mean there are not conditions that do well with fat. John Hopkins uses a very high fat diet to treat children with seizures and one third of the kids go into remission. They only stay on the diet 3 years.

Then there is Lorenzo's oil for children with a genetic birth defect that kills them. The oil prevents the damage.

But the most responsive treatment for protomyxzoa is low fat vegan diet. I feel so much better.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
Thanks Marnie - interesting about Steve Jobs... so smart but no common sense.



Braman: And has the, what you called protomyxoa, is that an internal name or has this been officially recognized in some standard process as a new bug?

Fry: That is a, we think it is at least a new genus. Its maybe a higher order, and we can find nothing similar to it that is close enough genetically, so actually that is the name we developed. It was a scientific name we developed or came up with.

Protomyxoa is Greek for slime forming protozoan. And we call it protomyxoa rheumatica because we think it is associated with the autoimmune or rheumatic disorders. We have not submitted our DNA database, or our DNA map to the international registry for IP [intellectual property] reasons.

We are a private diagnostic laboratory; this is our technology, and we just havent done that yet. We are protecting our trade secrets and technology. Eventually this will get out; thats our plan, thats our intention. We plan to partner with one of the major institutions for validation. It just takes time and money.

Braman: So how far away do you think you are from this hitting mainstream knowledge and use?

Fry: Well, one of the problems is publications. We have a very small publication. We presented this information at the 2009 Biofilm Meetings. And we had no problem getting our abstract accepted. Weve submitted this article really in fuller form to four mainstream peer-review neurology journalsthis is a study in ALS; that is one of our main interests.

And they have declined to review it, or theyve rejected it. And one of my colleagues is the former editor of one of these journals, the former president of one of the national societies, he says, Look, this is too political, too new, really a radical concept. And actually the CCVI information showing obstructions in MS patients is now considered a very radical concept.

So it is just going to take time, and we realize that. So now we are looking at lesser journals, reconstructing that small paper to get that out. And of course, larger studies we have on the books, we are trying to get IRB [institutional review board a system for ensuring the ethical guidelines are followed in medical research] approval for a number of studies right now. And that takes time and money.

But we just keep plugging away at it. We are almost done, we are using one of the larger IRBs, institutional IRBs available for groups like ours. And we have a consultant with them, and we are designing a study, and it is pretty much, its almost done, it has some rough edges to clean up.

Then weve got to pursue additional funding to make that project happen. But that is in collaboration with two neurologists in the Phoenix metropolitan area.

Braman: So you are getting some uptake in the traditional system?

Fry: Sure, yeah, and I have some of my colleagues that are patient, theyre open-minded. And, you know, when you show someone one these pictures, that we get from some of these patients, its really pretty amazing. Its hard to believe its there, it is hard to believe these patients are alive with that kind of infection.

But if you understand the underlying disease process, you can understand why they are still alive with a disease like this. They are not well, they dont feel very good, but, you know, they are able to stay alive. And we believe this is chronic inflammatory disease.

Braman: So have you sequenced the DNA of this organism yet?

Fry: Actually weve mapped the genome and filed an IP on that, but weve mapped the genome, yes. And that is how we know where we can place it phylogenetically, and know it is new, and know it is unique.

Braman: Interesting. So if you have gotten to the step of actually sequencing the whole genome, you know you are dealing with an actual bug. Not just in pictures, as impressing as that might be. But if you have the DNA in hand, and it is consistent, and it is mapped, then you know you have a critter, if you will....

Fry: Right, and so really the gold standard in microbiology today is the molecular signature, well, we have that now. And not only do we just have a signature for a portion of the genome, we have the entire genome mapped. At least, an isolate from one patient. And with that information we know it is unique, its not like anything else.

Actually it is probably close to a couple other organisms, but not close enough to say that its probably in the same order, same phylum, but not the same order. And really, this type of organism we think is a little different than what we are used to dealing with genetically.

And it is just a unique organism. Its a slime forming complex protozoan, trying to become a helminth [parasitic worm], trying to become a worm. And that may suggest why it is really resistant to a variety of different medications.

Its a tough bug. It has a lot of gene sequences that are very, very similar to human. And that is probably the confounding aspect to it. Because it has resiliency of human tissue, and it has similar requirements.

And this is probably an organism that developed over the eons and borrowed genes from its hosts. And, you know, kept some that it liked, and discarded some it didnt like. And of course its got its own genetic information, and its, you know, its progenitor with some ameba, or some protozoan in the past.

But it is a little more complex than say, malaria or babesiosis genetically. Actually it is sort of in-between, again, a helminth and a malarial type organism.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
PS - BTW - I just reposted Catgirl's original link...
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
Also - most MDs aren't well versed in nutrition. It's a really small part of their training. Just a thought...
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on : can say that again. They have so much to learn in really a short time.

I remember reading years ago about a MD - woman - who was dx'd with cancer and she decided to get out in the sun, exercise, eat healthy - very, think positive, pray, and NOT go the chemo. route...and she recovered.

P.S. VERY good thought about the omega 6's...yea our diet is way too skewed (sp?) to those. Good insight!
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
Get this...

"And it is just a unique organism. Its a slime forming complex protozoan, trying to become a helminth [parasitic worm], trying to become a worm. And that may suggest why it is really resistant to a variety of different medications."


I'd say time for some serious anti-parasite protocols.
Posted by annxyzz (Member # 20404) on :
sparkle, I agree with you about researching chinese / indian herbs for parasites . What is amazing is how many there are . You are right , they have dealt with paraites forever and we have dismissed them as a possibility of causing chronic illness . I do not know much at all, but I would not be surprised if autoimmune diseases
prove to be raging , untreated infections, bacteria or parasitical or fungal.

It is hard to believe that the immune system just wakes up one day and decides to destroy the tissue and organs in the body it encompasses .
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
For some reason, parasites get such odd responses from doctors & people in general. I don't know why they have been overlooked for so long.

People think I'm psychotic if I tell them I have parasites. What's up with that?

I'm doing an anti-parasite protocol now. It's making me ill but in some ways I'm also feeling better. I guess it never ends...

I ordered some A-P from Rain-tree. It has some interesting ingredients. I'm waiting for that to arrive.
Posted by lost11 (Member # 34607) on :
Sparkle, Have you tried the cowden protocol for parasites and lyme? I swear its a big part of what got me well. I've heard many with good results using his products. Natural stuff too. :-)
Posted by Wallace (Member # 4771) on :
Hi Brussels long time no see!

I think he is working along the right lines. Bill Clinton is on this diet and he looks great on it. I have been on this 10 per cent fat vegan diet for the last 3 years and it hasnt done much for me personally so I am just started a blood th...inning version of this diet where I also eat a lot of foods high in Vit C. E.g I eat a lot of lemons and lemon juice! For the first time I seem to be experiencing what he mentions, getting a herx from your diet. Of course this may just be a coincidence!!! Time will tell! I have always thought diet is key, we have to keep looking!

The diet is not that difficult!!! If B Clinton can do it????
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
I'm for this ;-)

After all, Pepsi, potato chips and M&Ms is technically a vegetarian diet.

(Me...obviously they are talking about Pepsi Throwback.)

If a veg. diet = More Omega 6s...perhaps the benefit involves "methyl"?

"On the other hand, plant-based vegetarian diets can deliver excessive amounts of omega-6 fatty acids,

another class of essential fatty acids found in vegetable oils made from corn, soybeans and grape seeds, whole-grain breads and cereals."

Regarding the balance between the fatty 3 and omega 6 (our typical American diet is way to skewed towards omega 6s):

n−6 fatty acids (popularly referred to as ω−6 fatty acids or omega-6 fatty acids) are a family of unsaturated fatty acids that have in common a final carboncarbon double bond in the n−6 position, that is, the sixth bond, counting from

***the methyl end.***

The biological effects of the n−6 fatty acids are largely mediated by their conversion to n-6 eicosanoids that bind to diverse receptors found in every tissue of the body.

The conversion of tissue arachidonic acid (20:4n-6) to n-6 prostaglandin and n-6 leukotriene hormones

provides many targets for pharmaceutical drug development and treatment to

diminish excessive n-6 actions

in atherosclerosis, asthma, arthritis, vascular disease, thrombosis, immune-inflammatory processes, and tumor proliferation.

Maybe the real key is the fact that those on that diet start to burn their own fat -> ketones i.e., ketogenic diet...which can be hard on the kidneys.

After all, "they" continue to tell us all to exercise and lose weight to be healthier.

A Mediterranean diet is also good.

Oh...raspberries: (vegetarian friendly)

Bb needs glucose (for sure)but in a jam, WE can substitute fat burning -> ketones to make ATP.

A very specific ketone called BHB (made in our liver - if healthy) can cross the blood brain barrier and enter the cells' citric acid cycle
-> more ATP...our "energy" carrier.

Here are two situations where raising ketones (a a result of fat burning) might not be a good idea:

The reducing diet causing ketosis never rises to levels that might be dangerous except in the following conditions:

severe, uncontrolled diabetes;

third trimester pregnancy,

alcholism (the problem in the alcoholic is complicated and not fully understood).

In alcoholism, ketosis is readily reversed with glucose or insulin.

In any case, as I caution repeatedly, those who have serious medical disorders,

particularly alcoholism and ***diabetes,***

should diet

only under a personal physician's supervision."
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
Yes, I tried the Cowden herbs - for about 6-9 months. I don't think I really have/had Lyme after going through alot of thinking about it. I think I have a parasite problem. The herbs that are anti-parasite effected me the most like Quinine, Enula & Cumanda. Not a cure for me, though.

I suppose it's good to give the low fat diet a try. I was a vegetarian & substituted soy for most of the protein. Later, I read that soy can leach mgnesium out of the body & it has excessive estrogens. I don't think it's that healthy to eat alot of soy products... Back then, soy was the big savior to vegetarians who wanted to avoid meat.

Some of these diets may be fads or not based on extended research. I would advise to be cautious when experimenting with diet. The body is pretty adaptable but you don't want to starve yourself for specific nutrients & wind up in a wosre place.

It's not easy to tell if you are subclinically missing out on an important nutrient.
Posted by nefferdun (Member # 20157) on :
This diet is not so restrictive of fats that anyone needs to worry it is unhealthy or dangerous. You are primarily eliminating omega 6 fatty acids which are inflammatory. All the animal fats and most vegetable oils (except flax) are primarily omega 6. To follow this diet you are not using typical salad dressings, mayonnaise, butter or margarine on vegetables or sauting in fat.

There are a lot of protein rich foods that have little or no fat such as rice and beans. You can make many different kinds of soup without adding fat - chili, vegetable, curry etc. You can also make loaves with beans and rice and onion etc that have no fat.

Although wheat has arginine, bread has very little fat. You can even make deserts, like brownies using black beans instead of fat.
I use some egg whites which have no fat. Here is a recipe;
Posted by emla999/Lyme (Member # 12606) on :
Nefferdun said:

All the animal fats and most vegetable oils (except flax) are primarily omega 6.
You may have just miss typed that statement but just to clarify, animal fats are not primarily Omega 6's. Actually, the Omega 6 content of beef, lamb, many types of fish/seafood and wild game are actually very low in Omega 6's. Though, some animal fats such as those that come from pork and chicken can be quite high in Omega 6's but all animal fat is not high in Omega 6's.

On the link down bellow there is a chart that lists the Omega 6 content of many types of food and as you can see, many types animal derived fats/foods are actually very low in Omega 6 fatty acids.

Posted by MichaelTampa (Member # 24868) on :
I spoke with my acupuncturist on this topic. She really felt this diet was far below the level of fat we need in the diet. I guess we can classify fats as inflamatory and antiinflamatory if we want to, but is off the topic a little that every cell in our body needs to have fat in it.

The brain and nerves especially need more fat, and their function is particularly important, if I can say that without denigrating the importance of all the other body parts.

Now, she also said, most people have some fat stores, and those who are substantially overweight have lots of this, and the body can take from those fat stores as needed. For those like myself who most people would characterize as very skinny, I still have fat stores but not very much, and I would/will get to a state soon enough where my body would be relying on my diet to serve my fat needs.

After this conversation, I remembered something I read somewhere advising people against eating late at night, even carbs, because the body would digest it and store it as fat. Of course, if that's true, perhaps there are ways like that where one could get fat without eating it. I'm a little skeptical on that statement, its source was not one I remember trusting, but I'll look more into that thought over time.
Posted by nefferdun (Member # 20157) on :
All I can say is, I have not felt this good in a LONG TIME. Does anyone want to argue this diet is actually making me worse and I just don't know it? My brain functions much better. I think more clearly. I remember better.

I have more energy, I am more motivated to do things, I am planning my life again. My pain is gone. I do not have nerve problems - no twitching, no headaches, no burning.

I look better. I feel better. I can work long hours and not feel exhausted. I can run up the stairs instead of dragging myself up them, gasping for breath at the top. I am riding my horse almost every day as well as mucking the barn again, grooming everyone and mowing acres of grass.

I just finished a two hour trail ride and I have the afternoon planned with more things to get done. Check back on my posts from three months ago and you will see how much progress I have made.

So if you have not tried this diet, stop knocking it. Just stay sick and tell yourself you need fat for your already demented mind and twitching, exhausted body.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
Nefferdun - do you think it could be the ivermectin rather than the diet? I recall that you said you were taking stromectol which is ivermectin.

I felt almost normal for a couple of months when I was taking anti-parasitic herbs. I should have kept up with them but I stopped since I thought I was "better".

After a year of wracking my brain - I realized that the parasites came back & that's why my health declined again.
Posted by MichaelTampa (Member # 24868) on :
Originally posted by nefferdun:
All I can say is, I have not felt this good in a LONG TIME. Does anyone want to argue this diet is actually making me worse and I just don't know it? My brain functions much better. I think more clearly. I remember better.

I have more energy, I am more motivated to do things, I am planning my life again. My pain is gone. I do not have nerve problems - no twitching, no headaches, no burning.

I look better. I feel better. I can work long hours and not feel exhausted. I can run up the stairs instead of dragging myself up them, gasping for breath at the top. I am riding my horse almost every day as well as mucking the barn again, grooming everyone and mowing acres of grass.

I just finished a two hour trail ride and I have the afternoon planned with more things to get done. Check back on my posts from three months ago and you will see how much progress I have made.

So if you have not tried this diet, stop knocking it. Just stay sick and tell yourself you need fat for your already demented mind and twitching, exhausted body.

neff - I do not want to argue that it is making you worse AT THIS TIME. I do "follow"/remember your situation some, I imagine partly because of the vegetarianism we have in common. I've been on this diet as well (although was more 30-35gms fat/day rather than 15gms/day). I was surprised looking back at my records, it was way back in May/June last year. I benefited from it enormously as well.

After about 6-8 weeks, though, I did encounter problems on it and stop. How much benefit I retained from it over this time, really, I don't know. My body is asking for it again and I started it again this past weekend. For how long, we will see. I did lose track of it over this past year, and likely could have got back on it sooner than now, but just was caught up in some other things.

I do have concern about using it long-term, both for you and me. I don't know your status of fat stores, nor do I know how precisely you are following the diet. Are you counting grams of fat in the beans/grains and other foods, or just counting "extra fat" in any nuts/seeds/oils/meats/eggs you may end up eating? What range of fat in total do you think you're really in? All of that would be interesting/helpful information as I continue to evaluate how healthful/realistic it is long-term, as I'll be assessing how things go for me as well as any others who report.

I must say, while it's great to hear how night-and-day your results are on my diet, I see improvement but not quite that dramatic. Fatigue is still pretty apparent (although it is early, I don't remember details of last time that well any more).
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
Originally posted by MichaelTampa:
...I was targeting 15% of calories from fat, which did end up at about 33 grams a day. I had enormous herx and benefit. So, I want to pass that on for those considering this. Going straight to 15 grams, you may kill so many bugs right away, you might not be ready for that, maybe try slowly, and maybe there is real benefit even if you can't get that low.

This sounds like a happy medium for me (yeast issues). Thanks Michael!

It would be fascinating to see Dr. F.'s work on this. I wonder how he got to 15 grams per day (maybe McDougall's diet)?
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
re: So if you have not tried this diet, stop knocking it. Just stay sick and tell yourself you need fat for your already demented mind and twitching, exhausted body.


Not everyone may have the "Fry bug"... Different parasites have different food or energy sources.


Also, nefferdun - do you think the methylation protocol has anything to do with your improvement? If you are doing several things - how do you know for sure it's the low fat diet?
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :

excerpt from Dr. AC - MD

In some cases, it has been observed that low levels of Babesia duncani antibodies with a negative FISH could be an indicator for Protomyxzoa rheumatica.

FL1953 (Protomyxzoa rheumatic) can be found in red blood cells on a smear done by Fry Labs. May appear as hypochromic red blood cells.

Symptoms of FL1953 are similar to Babesia. Symptoms include cold hands and feet, headache behind the eyes, scalp sores, sinus congestion, notable teeth pain, heart palpitations, shortness of breath, dry cough, abdominal pain, nausea, IBS, insomnia, sweats, bladder pain, muscle pain, twitching, profound fatigue, exercise intolerance, insomnia, brain fog, poor balance, anxiety, OCD, irritability, hypercoagulation.

Off and on hoarseness can be a symptom of FL1953.

Possible treatment options for FL1953 include Alinia, Artemisinin, Albenza, Ivermectin, Beyond Balance MC-BAB-2, Byron White A-BAB, Cryptolepis, Byron White A-BART, Supreme Nutrition Golden Thread Supreme, macrolide antibiotics.

ALWAYS uses enzymes, enzymes, enzymes and usually restorative fats, while reducing dietary fats. DRAINAGE, DRAINAGE, DRAINAGE!

May use Allergy Research or Doctors Best Artemisinin. May used a pulsed anti-parasitic (Alinia, Artemisinin, Albenza, Ivermectin) combined with an herbal remedy.

Very commonly Golden Thread Supreme.

Enzymes are also used with the anti-parasitic and herbal treatment. Designs for Health Plant Enzyme Digestive Formula seems to be the best. Serrapeptase, Interfase, Boluoke, and others can be helpful. The enzymes are best taken on an empty stomach with drainage remedies.

Out of 103 patients tested for FL1953 with PCR, 78 were positive.

FL1953 herxes can be massive body pain, headache, anxiety, paranoia, hallucination, irritability, twitching, fatigue, joint pain, tooth pain, congestion or sinus pressure, abdominal pain, bladder pain, and increased hypercoagulability.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
Also- (from same link as above)

Best treatment to date for FL1953 includes: an anti-parasitic, usually Alinia or Artemisinin with Beyond Balance MC-BAB-2, Golden Thread Supreme with multiple enzymes such as Boluoke, Nattokinase, Serrapeptase, Interfase, Interfase Plus, Plant Enzyme Digestive Formula and others along with fats are often needed such as Omega-3s, phosphatidylcholine, phosphatidylserine, Crayhon DHA Supreme, and others. Omega-3s may be needed for a couple of years.


So, not all think low fat is the only way. I'm not trying to be a jerk but I like to cross reference the treatments to get a consensus. Like I said - I tried some diet concepts in the past - & they turned out to be based on one "opinion"...
Posted by JRWagner (Member # 3229) on :
Suggestion: everyone read "The Spectrum " by Dr. Dean Ornish, and "Reversing Heart Disease" by Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn of the Cleveland Clinic (number one heart disease hospital.
Peace,love, and Wellness,
Posted by Wallace (Member # 4771) on :
yep good reads along with john robbins work
Posted by nefferdun (Member # 20157) on :
I don't count fat in beans or rice but I do count it in oatmeal. I don't eat seeds or nuts. I do miss them terribly. I am not strict vegan because I eat some egg whites and cheese once in awhile. I count the fat when I do.

For instance the package of shredded mozzarella cheese says 1/3 cup has 6 grams of fat. I will make a veggie pizza with a bit of cheese or melt some over a grilled portabello mushroom. I have been making my own sprouted grain bread and it has 2 TB oil per loaf but one TB is flax oil.

Stromectol has helped a lot. I did two weeks of horse wormed in early April. Then I did 4 days of chloroquine which seemed to make my thyroid hyper. I was really concerned at this time that I was "done for". I decided to give LDN another try and it settled my thyroid down. Now it seems normal and I am off meds for it.

I got my methyl cycle test results around the end of May and tweaked the supplements. I sent my results to heartfixer and am still waiting for the results.

I restarted stomectol the beginning of June. I was feeling a lot better at that time but had small amounts of pain that came and went. The stromectol got me over the top.

The diet is hard. I went to a wonderful whole foods grocery today where they have great prepared food - most of which I cannot eat because of the added fat. Even the veggie soup has fat floating on top. Sometimes it drives me nuts (no pun intended). I just do the best I can.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
Like I said - I'm not trying to be a jerk... it just seems that you may feel better, nefferdun, due to the anti-parasite meds & not necessarily the low fat diet. Is there a way you can tell the difference?

After 2 years of doing the anti-parasite herbs - one day I woke up & I felt about 85% better after over 15 years of being ill. It took longer since I was really infected & I used only herbs, not drugs.

It's really hard to tell which thing is affecting what when one is on multiple protocols. I'm not against doing whatever it takes but changing diet can be a big inconvenience. At one point, I was spending about 5 hours a day preparing food. After about 6 months, I realized that I didn't feel much better.

For me, the anti-parasite treatment was what has made the biggest difference. I have not been tested for the Fry bug & I have not done a low fat diet. I would have to see more evidence that it's really the thing that is helping.

The symptoms of FL1953 could fit alot of different diseases or other parasite infections. I don't know how accurate the tests are. Fat consumption is a pretty big deal - especially the "right" fats as opposed to the "wrong" ones over time.

I'm repeating here - I'm not trying to criticize anyone. As a somewhat objective observer - I don't see alot of actual proof that it's what is helping other than what Dr. F says.
Posted by faithful777 (Member # 22872) on :
Any body looked at Dr. D'Adamo's blood type diet? According to his studies, some people are meant to be vegetarian and some are definitely not. His Geno Type book goes into epigenetics and how adding and eliminating certain foods boost the immune system.

Just another view...
Posted by MichaelTampa (Member # 24868) on :
I want to concede this blood type diet probably has at least some validity. But, like so many things, taking a principle like that, which may make sense for a "normal healthy person", and trying to apply it someone with lyme disease is going to be a terrible mistake.

Having chronic lyme disease changes what the body needs in so many different ways, including what it needs from diet. Just as one example, maybe a healthy type O person can handle all that disgustingly fatty and acid meat and should just eat big steaks at every meal. BUT, try doing that with chronic lyme disease and you'll be much the sicker for it, blood type notwithstanding.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
There are a huge amount of ideas about diet... We could speculate forever as to which are correct. I've looked into so many from vegan to only eating meat.

I think that the body is pretty adaptable. Everyone has their specific genetics & how it may be effected by pathogens. The concept I follow these days to try to be moderate. I try to stay away from "non-food" items like high fructose corn syrup, hydrogenated fats & GMOs.

It's hard - that stuff is in almost all foods these days. I'd probably go for mostly all organic if it was available & didn't cost an arm & a leg.
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
How is everyone doing? Has anyone who hasn't cut the fat yet tried going low fat or even just cutting down on it, and has it helped you? I appreciate advice from experienced Dr. F followers too.

I have a ton of respect for Dr. F, as does my lyme specialist. Unfortunately, he can't test me for this due to state law prohibiting it, so I have to find someone who can (another state).

So, all things considered, and for the time being, I decided to take Sparkle's (be moderate) and Michael's advice, and just cut the fat.

So for now, I cut down on nuts. I know we aren't supposed to have them (if we have protomyxoa) due to arginine. I used to eat 2 cups a day because I got so thin.

Then 3 mos ago I cut it to 1 cup. And recently, I cut it to 1/4 cup a day. I feel better but I'm not sure if it's because I'm starting to win the war on yeast, or if it's due to decreasing the nuts & protomyxzoa.

But looking at my notes of a few months ago, I felt better within a day of cutting back on the nuts. Not massively better, but noticeably better. Maybe I cut the biofilms in half (hope so)? I wonder if Dr. F has info on this.

I actually feel better when I eat avocados though. I don't know if that means I have the F1953, or not.

Maybe it's about balance? If you cut some fat out and add in more cyst busters (I don't really know).
Posted by MichaelTampa (Member # 24868) on :
I continue on a low-fat diet. The first week I probably was at about 15 grams a day, and since, I have been eating about 28-30 grams a day, per my pendulum which is pretty consistent from day to day.

I am continuing to see significant improvements against biofilms and lyme and coinfections and better energy.

To get to the 28-30 grams a day, I often have a veggie burger or two, and am adding in 1-4 teaspoons of coconut oil or olive oil, and sometimes some small amount of walnuts or hemp seeds. I'm following the pendulum.

I did get tested for the FL1953 but do not have results yet.

I think the low-fat diet would be important to many here.
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
That's great Michael. It kind of sounds like you have it (FL1953). I think it is so much better to find out rather then guessing.

Are you still herxing from it?

I am trying to eat close to normal for me to see if the test shows it (but did cut down on the nuts). But first I have to find someone to do the test.

I'm hoping, if I do have it, that then my doc will give me some pharmaceutical grade anti parasitics.

Keep in touch and let us know how your test goes. I'm curious to see what your doc puts you on.
Posted by MichaelTampa (Member # 24868) on :
Forgot to mention, while I had huge herx last year at the beginning when I did it for 6 weeks, nothing of that sort this time around.
Posted by nefferdun (Member # 20157) on :
I am still trying to do the diet. I can't say I am vegan but I am vegetarian. I eat a small amount of cheese, yogurt, goats milk and egg whites. I am doing much better on this diet.

I try to keep my fat to 15 grams but that is hard so I probably average 15 to 20 grams. I think the lower you keep it, the better your results. I started to get some pain back in my knee when wasn't so careful, so I am back on track.

I tested homzygous for the CBS mutation which means animal protein causes me to build up a lot of ammonia in my body. This wrecks havoc everywhere so it is doubly important that I am vegan(ish).

WIth the methyl cycle mutations I have to limit sulfur so I am not supposed to have soy, kale, spinach, onion, garlic etc and with the F diet I have to limit fat and arginine- so no nuts, seeds, avocado, oils. Excitotoxins I am not supposed to eat are mushrooms, peas and tomatoes. I just can't be that strict with myself.

I am much better though - much better!
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
15 grams of fat is, IMO, too low.

Our LDL carries cholesterol to where it is needed.

Like the myelin sheath!

LDL is not bad. It is only when it is OXIDIZED that it is a bad situation.

Re: ammonia...PLEASE read (pay attention to ammonia mentioned):

"Arginine is useful in some individuals as a supplement to help treat the

symptoms of hyperammonemia

if they have a block in the proper metabolism or synthesis of arginine in the liver."

Hyperammonemia = excess of ammonia in the blood.

Dr. Atkins original diet...low carb, high protein and high fats almost killed a friend of mine who came very close to going into kidney failure.

See Wikipedia - Robert Atkins (nutritionist)

Note he was a physician and cardiologist!

Like the Johns' Hopkins ketogenic diet...way too dangerous if not monitored VERY closely.

These extreme diets are potentially very very dangerous.

Given the number of nutrients Bb robs, the body is already way out of balance.

[ 07-25-2012, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: Marnie ]
Posted by hadlyme (Member # 6364) on :
Marnie, Please remember that with any of this, lyme, babs, bart, Fl1953, that our bodies are not the same as 'normal' people that can look at all the 'normal' suggestions on how to eat, how to live, how to do anything.

When a microbiologist see's something under a microscope on what is working. I for one do believe that.

I feel SO much better just going low fat. Some days I can do 15grams, most days just around 20-25 which is still low.

We are not 'normal' least I am not.

It's not an extreme diet. It's a new way of eating whole foods and lower fat.

For those of us that eat this way, we are proof that we feel better.
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
people with pancreas problems do low fat or what they can tolerate.

it's the only way they can prevent acute attacks. plus they must take enzymes with everything.

not a good way to live, but many do it.

do be careful with doing low fat. it caused me to loose my gallbladder and i haven't been the same since.
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
How many calories are you consuming?

For the purposes of this statement, a very low fat diet is defined as one in which ≤15% of total calories are derived from fat (33 g for a 2000-calorie diet.

Stampfer said the ***extremely*** low fat intake, combined with high blood pressure, may contribute to a

structural weakness in blood vessels that causes them to rupture.

He said the findings probably apply to men, too.

Atherosclerosis (plaque buildup in the arteries) is the result of

OXIDIZED LDL = LDL + free radicals.

Because of our need for oxygen, the downside is that -> "free radicals".

But we normally have enzymes and also take in nutrients to counter and protect us from all the DNA damaging - cell damaging free radicals.

When those enzymes or nutrients drop, we're in trouble.

It appears Bb has an ATP analog called AMP-PNP which competitively inhibits ATP-dependent enzyme systems, such as ***glutamine synthetase***


Blocks ATP-sensitive calcium-dependent potassium channels.®ion=US

Glutamine synthetase (GS) in brain is located mainly in astrocytes (brain cells). One of the primary roles of astrocytes is to

protect neurons against excitotoxicity by taking

up excess ammonia and glutamate and

converting it into glutamine via the enzyme GS.

There is supposed to be a glutamate-glutamine cycle.

Now...glutamine is our most abundant amino acid and the liver uses lactate + H -> lactic acid + glutamine to make keep the blood supply of glucose up when it drops.


Cancer cells function via AEROBIC glycolysis (normally anaerobic) in the cytoplasm and the powerhouses of the cancer cells use glutamine.

This is the odd part about cancer cells....they use BOTH fuels...glucose AND an amino acid.

As does Bb who ferments glucose AND needs amino acids to build his cell walls.

There is such a thing as aerobic fermentation...and Bb is NOT a strict anaerobe.

NORMALLY we use one or the other.

GENETICALLY, my son has to eat cholesterol and nutrient rich WHOLE eggs (over easy to preserve the nutrients). His normal cholesterol is too low and when it gets really low this -> depression...and he knows he has to temporarily bump up his intake of WHOLE eggs.

Ever look at a raw egg carefully? See the "dot" on the yolk (sometimes it is a little red). That is where the chicken-embryo is...

on the most nutrient rich portion of the egg.

This is the balance in nature. Yes, eggs ARE high in cholesterol (which we need), but the yolk ALSO has in it

lecithin which is a

fat emulsifier!

...among many other beneficial nutrients...esp. those needed for our eye health.

Same with seeds and nuts...they are tiny nutrient packed power packages.

While the Ornish or other similar diets maybe beneficial for many persons i.e., those in the test who had HEART DISEASE, I suspect persons with heart disease AND other diseases were eliminated from the testing process.

Which skews the results.

In other words, if you had heart disease AND lyme disease or heart disease AND diabetes, it is highly unlikely you would be allowed in the testing to determine the potential benefits of the low fat diet.

LDL-cholesterol (remember LDL carries cholesterol) comes from our own body AND from our diet. Mostly our own body.


"Some research indicates cholesterol may act as an antioxidant."

Logical...LDL (don't want it oxidized) so attach it to an antioxidant...cholesterol.

Besides the foods we eat that have cholesterol, we MAKE it.


About 2025% of total daily cholesterol production occurs in the liver; other sites of higher synthesis rates include the intestines, adrenal glands, and reproductive organs.

If your intake of cholesterol is too low and your body can NOT produce enough in the above organs/sites...the body WILL find it somewhere...

Notably the myelin sheath will suffer.

Just like our bones are robbed of nutrients when the nutrients are desperately needed to preserve our life.

For a person of about 68 kg (150 pounds), typical total body cholesterol synthesis is about 1 g (1,000 mg) per day, and total body content is about 35 g, primarily

located within all the membranes of all the cells of the body.

Typical daily dietary intake of additional cholesterol, in the United States, is 200300 mg

However, most ingested cholesterol is esterified and esterified cholesterol is poorly absorbed.

The body also compensates for any

absorption of additional cholesterol

by reducing cholesterol synthesis.

For these reasons, cholesterol intake in food has little, if any, effect on total body cholesterol content or concentrations of cholesterol in the blood.

"Researchers have found that some foods -- such as ***fatty fish***, ***walnuts,*** oatmeal, and oat bran, and foods fortified with plant sterols or stanols -- can help control your cholesterol.

Low-fat, reduced fat, or fat-free processed foods are not necessarily healthy, nor is it automatically healthier to follow a low-fat diet.

One problem with a generic lower-fat diet is that it prompts most people to stop eating fats that are good for the heart along with those that are bad for it.

And low-fat diets are often higher in refined carbohydrates and starches from foods like white rice, white bread, potatoes, and sugary drinks.

Similarly, when food manufacturers take out fat, they often replace it with carbohydrates from sugar, refined grains, or starch.

Our bodies digest these refined carbohydrates and starches very quickly, causing blood sugar and insulin levels to spike and then dip, which in turn leads to hunger, overeating, and weight gain.

Over time, eating lots of fast carbs can raise the risk of heart disease and diabetes

as much asor more thaneating too much saturated fat.

So when you *cut back* on foods like red meat and butter,

replace them with fish, beans, *nuts*, and healthy oils

not with white bread, white rice, potatoes, sugary drinks, or other refined carbohydrates.

Although it is still important to limit the amount of cholesterol you eat, especially if you have diabetes, for most people dietary

cholesterol isn't nearly the villain it's been portrayed to be.

Cholesterol in the bloodstream, specifically the bad LDL cholesterol, is what's most important.

And the biggest influence on blood cholesterol level is the mix of fats and carbohydrates in your dietnot the amount of cholesterol you eat from food.


The Ornish diet is primarily a vegan diet.

To follow the Ornish Diet:

Eat all the beans, legumes, fruits, grains, and vegetables you need to feel full.

Eat dairy low- or nonfat dairy products such as milk, cheese, and yogurt in moderation.

Only 10 percent of your calories should come from fat.

Avoid meats (red and white), oils and products containing oils, including avocados, olives, nuts, seeds, full-fat dairy, and sugar.

Exercise for at least 30 minutes five times a week or 60 minutes three times a week.

Manage stress with yoga and meditation and by spending time with your loved ones.

Kick unhealthy habits such as smoking or drinking alcohol in excess.

Eat smaller meals more often to combat hunger, but be careful not to overeat because youre eating more often.

How Does The Ornish Diet Work?

The Ornish Diet helps you to lose weight and maintain heart health because

***youre eating fewer calories***

and consuming less heart-damaging fat.

Unfortunately those who go to extremes often cut out ALL dairy (casein does raise cholesterol) and sub. soy milk. This is NOT what Ornish said.

And avoiding all nuts and seeds is not a good idea. Walnuts, according to Harvard, actually help us to control cholesterol levels, for example.

Ornish also suggests exercise and even muscle BUILDING programs in addition to meditation and yoga (to reduce stress which would trigger the adrenals to make cholesterol).

But some poo-poo "meditation" or yoga benefits and feel these are "hog-wash".

Anytime a person maintains a "highish" level of blood glucose, this will ultimately -> a "fatty liver"...which in time is destructive to the liver.

All the anti-seizure drugs cause an elevation of blood glucose. Example, Depakote -> "fatty liver".

Ultimately the extreme diets or eating foods way out of balance -> severe in point - Steve Jobs!

Vegan diets reduce blood glucose levels.

Our brain needs 100 GRAMS of glucose per day and our body needs another 100 GRAMS. The brain is considered a "glucose hog".

With insufficient glucose, the cells have no choice but to switch to utilizing fats for energy to make ATP.

In go the amino acids...the building blocks of proteins.

Glutamine...(cancer cells love that amino acid)

And while "he" is at it...inhibit glutamine synthetase which

protects the neurons against excitotoxicity by

taking up excess ammonia

and glutamate and converting it into glutamine.

The REAL culprit in our typical American diet -> so many overweight is


Table sugar (sucrose) is glucose + fructose.

When we skew the balance in favor of high fructose, we are in big trouble.

It is added to a lot of things because it helps preserve shelf life.

Like adding hydrogen to oils...saturating preserve the shelf life.

Oils can go rancid due to O2 exposure...adding hydrogen helps stop that process.

[ 07-25-2012, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Marnie ]
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
for myself i'm probably doing 25-30 but then i'm not eating very much at all.

i can't. hurts my stomach.
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :

Critical that you get to a gastroenterologist to get to the root cause.
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
Randibear I thought eating fat caused gall bladder pain?

I understand that lyme patient's gallbladders easily get mucked up. My gall bladder has been hurting me lately.

I cut the fat, but I am also chelating right now. I just thought it was that and taking so many supplements.

I am so confused.
Posted by nefferdun (Member # 20157) on :
You are not cutting out all fat on this diet. It is very healthy. I do not use oils when I cook and no meat. For breakfast I usually have oatmeal. One cup (cooked) has 2.5 grams of fat.

Most beans and rice have no fat and I make a lot of meals from them. I make vegan loaves out of black beans, black rice, onion, green pepper, spices, chia (loaded with omega 3) and enough whole wheat bread crumbs (or flour) to bind. No fat to speak of.

I can make chile with pinto beans, kidney beans, soy protein, diced tomatoes, spices, onion, peppers etc. About 2 grams fat.

I eat all the fruit and vegetables I want. Egg whites have no fat but a lot of sulfur and arginine which I am not supposed to have. I have them in baked goods. You can make spongecake with egg whites, whole wheat pastry flour and maple syrup - no fat. You can also make brownies or chocolate cake substituting mashed black beans for fat. It is very good. I even make corn bread substituting mashed white beans for fat.

I am telling you guys how to survive this diet and all my cheats. Grahm crackers have very little fat. Sometimes I make pudding from low fat goat's milk (2.5 grams per cup), a little honey or maple syrup and corn starch. I pour it over fresh fruit like peaches or bananas. A couple of grams crackers adds less than 1 gram fat.

I make smoothies from low fat yogurt (2 grams), frozen blueberries and frozen bananas. I can make a sorbet using juice instead of yogurt. Sorbet has no fat.

I am at my ideal weight. My husband is also pretty much on this diet as he eats what I eat most of the time. We are both feeling well and actually look better. A friend I recently saw commented that I looked more healthy and younger.

I just can't do the vegan thing. I crave a little cheese now and then. I am very careful and measure it so I know I am not overdoing it. 1/3 cup of low fat shredded mozzarella only has 6 grams of fat.

I use even less than that on a grilled portobello mushroom or a homemade pizza. I am making my own bread and use 1 TB oil in the whole loaf. Sometimes I even sprout the grain, dehydrate it and then grind it into flour.

I have more energy. I planted 30 trees and 18 bushes this past week. Then went for a long trial ride. This morning as I went out to feed the horses, I was feeling so perky I wondered if I could jog. I surprised myself as I did make it about 100 yards without feeling I would collapse (like before).

I can think better. I play cribbage with my husband several times a day. I am very quick at counting the cards. I remember things better. I am less anxious even though there are some very stressful things going on in my life.

It is not just the diet. The methy cycle mutations help. Currently I am taking 100mg of minocycline once a day and ivermectin every other day.

What I have lingering is dry eyes and pain in one knee now and then. I hope I stay this well.

Anyway, the point of my post is to assure you guys that this will not harm you, it is healthful and may even get you well.
Posted by annxyzz (Member # 20404) on :
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
That's awesome Neff!
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
You should write a cookbook, nefferdun! Sounds delicious. I wish someone would cook like that for me.

I still think the ivermectin is a big factor, though.

Also, Catgirl - nuts often have alot of yeast.

I guess I'm kind of thinking that's it's not a big factor since I did do a very clean diet & juicing a long time ago & it didn't help. It's expensive & time consuming to do all that kitchen work. Maybe I'll have to give it more thought when it gets cooler. I hate spending more than an hour or so in the kitchen.

I don't think I would cut out fats for too long. I'm with Marnie on this. These diet ideas are experimental. You don't know what the long term effect might be.

If you got parasites eating your insides out & losing nutrients - you need to rebuild. Then, the drugs have to be factored in. I'm sure many of them are depleting.

It may be a good idea to cut out the fats while trying to get rid of this parasite but I'm not sure about long term effects. We may have to do anti-parasite protocols for life. I got to be feeling pretty good after 2 years of fighting them - but they came back when I stopped.

I'm even kind of afraid of taking the anti-parasite drugs for long. I decided to try Raintree A-P. I've been feeling worse for about a month now. It must be hitting something.

Everyone is different, though.
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
Important you all catch this:

"It is not just the diet. The methy (sic) cycle mutations help. Currently I am taking 100mg of minocycline once a day and ivermectin every other day."

Ivermecitin is an antiparasitic and used traditionally for worms. Toxicity re: GABA is of interest.
Posted by emla999/Lyme (Member # 12606) on :
I thought that some of you that are trying Dr. F's low fat diet may find this video and the articles down bellow interesting.

Are polyunsaturated fatty acids bad for your health?!

Is fish oil actually bad for your health?

For many years alot of people have claimed that the over consumption of Omega 6 polyunsaturated fats found in foods such in most grain/seed based cooking oils and highly processed foods can damage your health but the Omega 3 polunsaturated fats found in foods such as fish are good for your health.

But now, it seems as though some studies are starting indicate that eating Omega 3 fats may not be as good for your health as once thought.

I wonder if Dr. F has ever compared results of people that ate very little of all types of fats vs. people that ate normal amounts or even alot of saturated fats but ate very little to no polyunsaturated fats such as omega 3's and omega 6's?

Since the long term consumption of polyunsaturated fats appears to have the potential to cause health problems in people it would be rather interesting to see if just eliminating polyunsaturated fats from your diet would be just as effective at treating the FL1953 bug as eating a diet that consists a eating very little of any type of fat, including polyunsatured, saturated and monounsaturated fats.

Posted by Wallace (Member # 4771) on :
The important thing about this diet is to eliminate separated oils. I. e; fry in water. You get the oil from the whole food. Ground linseeds etc.

Young coconuts are only 15 per cent fat[a cornerstone now of my diet] and I also think they heal a bad digestive system. This must be tackled no matter what diet we are on. Fermented foods are another option here.

Of course the diet is safe. Bill Clinton is no fool!
Posted by Wallace (Member # 4771) on :
Posted by MichaelTampa (Member # 24868) on :
Originally posted by emla999/Lyme:
I thought that some of you that are trying Dr. F's low fat diet may find this video and the articles down bellow interesting.

Are polyunsaturated fatty acids bad for your health?!

Is fish oil actually bad for your health?

For many years alot of people have claimed that the over consumption of Omega 6 polyunsaturated fats found in foods such in most grain/seed based cooking oils and highly processed foods can damage your health but the Omega 3 polunsaturated fats found in foods such as fish are good for your health.

But now, it seems as though some studies are starting indicate that eating Omega 3 fats may not be as good for your health as once thought.

I wonder if Dr. F has ever compared results of people that ate very little of all types of fats vs. people that ate normal amounts or even alot of saturated fats but ate very little to no polyunsaturated fats such as omega 3's and omega 6's?

Since the long term consumption of polyunsaturated fats appears to have the potential to cause health problems in people it would be rather interesting to see if just eliminating polyunsaturated fats from your diet would be just as effective at treating the FL1953 bug as eating a diet that consists a eating very little of any type of fat, including polyunsatured, saturated and monounsaturated fats.


Dr. F. in speeches has said the type of fat does not matter, that the FL1953 thrives on fat, regardless of the kind.

I am eating about 28-30 grams of fat a day (about twice the 15 grams/day Dr. F. recommends for those with FL1953). I am pendulum testing how much fat/day and also the type of fat at each meal. Sometimes it has come from coconuts or coconut oil and thus been saturated fat, and sometimes it has come from unsaturated fat, so my experience is the type of fat does not affect the appropriate total for the day. I should point out, I don't know if I have the FL1953 bug. I took the test and am awaiting results.

It would be convenient if things that were true for the rest of the population made sense for us, but that is not the case in many ways.
Posted by nefferdun (Member # 20157) on :
The stromectol has done a lot. I quit the mino because it makes me dizzy and gives me a headache. I just can't tolerate the abx any more so I haven't got too many options left. I don't know the long term effects of ivermectin.

If it is not to be give to animals intended for human consumption, then you wonder how safe it is. I don't have another option right now. I hope I can eventually control the protomyxzoa with just diet and supplements.

That was a great video with Bill Clinton. It was funny that Esselstyl "fudges" on New Year's Eve, eating a bit of chocolate.

After Clinton explains he is looking and feeling so much better because he is on a near vegan diet, I think Letterman sums it up for everyone when he says, "you see, I don't want to do that".

That is what people who object to this diet are really saying. They just don't want to try it because they don't want to give up their food addictions. When you are addicted to something you believe you can't live without it. That is what people are saying when they say it must be unhealthy.

Funny, it must be unhealthy but I feel so good.

I would like to have nuts, avocado, butter and more cheese but I am not going to say not having it is going to make me sick. Not frying my food is not going to make me sick either. Think of how many more nutrients you get from your food when it is not covered in grease so it is easier to digest.

I have noticed I can eat a lot more, as much as I want. That means I am eating a lot more vegetables and fruits - food that is loaded with antioxidants and vitamins. The fat is a filler. It has very little food value.

How much fat do you think is in a fish oil capsule? About 1 to 1.75 grams! Why in the world are you ranting about omega 3's. Good grief, you could take 8-10 fish oil capsules and still not exceed your fat requirements for the day.
Posted by Wallace (Member # 4771) on :
yep people are in denial bigtime!!
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
Sorry...but I'm pro "fish" (symbol).

Hillary sure doesn't look like SHE'S on that diet!

Fruit is loaded with fructose!

Bb is phosphofructokinase dependent (= PFK).

Phosphofructokinase (PFK)catalyses the phosphorylation of fructose-6-phosphate to fructose-1,6- bisphosphate.

Yes...not eating a lot of proteins and fats IS easier on the digestive system. This is WHY we use glucose FIRST and it is a key nutrient needed by our body. 100 Grams per day for our brain, another 100 Grams per day for our body.

Unfortunately Bb likes it (and amino acids) do cancer cells.

Cancer cells function on AEROBIC (normally anaerobic) glycolysis in the cell cytoplasm AND glutamine = amino acid - (in the mitochondria).

Bb ferments glucose aerobically (in the cytoplasm) and triggers also the import of amino acids to build "his" cell walls and to make "his" RNA and DNA.

This is a very delicate balance.

NORMALLY we use EITHER glucose OR Ketones (amino acids from the breakdown of fats or proteins)to supply energy to our cells.

Bb and cancer cells use both.

Dr. F finds a new pathogen that is not confirmed by other microbiologists and now he is an expert at recommending what diet one should be on? When did he get a 5 year degree in nutrition?
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
Fascinating links Emla. I feel compelled to try this (eliminate polyunsaturated fats first and see what happens).
Posted by FL1953 (Member # 38132) on :
I've been lurking on this subject for the past few months and thought I'd finally comment.

I've had Lyme and "some other" coinfection for at least 4 years now. Been in treatment for 2.5 years. Mostly orals, and most of them in different combinations.

While I've had some improvement, weakness, and post exertional malaise and exaserbation of symptoms has never resolved. I've been unable to walk more than 50 yards

Until now...

I've been following Dr. Fry's research for a few years now. Mostly through the Lyme Doc Blog. I remember him mentioning some strange things on blood slides.

Well, when FL1953 was finally isolated and had it's geonone sequenced I thought perhaps he was one to something. Reading his interview convinced me to try his recommendations.

I have not been tested because my LLMD is in a state where the test can not be ordered.

But back in the middle of April I started the low fat, low argenine diet. I keep my fat grams down to 10-15 a day. I eat no wheat. Basically I live on beans, lentils, brown or black rice, fruits and vegetables.

I find the diet hard at times, and I've been ordered by my LLMD to eat some meat once a week. Too many days of low fat starts to make me depressed and hard to deal with.

So, I do the diet fairly strictly 6 days a week, and loosen up a bit on Sundays. I do supplementn with methylcobolamin each day.

I am not on any antiparasitic meds. Just Plaquenil, Cednifir and Biaxin. Lot's of probiotics. Oh, and I take Cryptolepis.

My improvement has been dramatic. I'm working 60 hours a week again, cutting my own grass, doing chores around the house and my brain fog has almost been eliminated.

For the past two years I couldn't stand to have my legs hang down, like in a car. Last week I drove for 4 hours without issue. A few weeks ago I dug out my yard for a pool with a pick ax and shovel. Wheelbarrowed 1 ton of sand from my driveway to the pool.

Also, I've regained the ability to sweat. A few years ago I bought a really nice, and too expensive FIR sauna. I could sit in it for 30 minutes at 130 degrees and never break a sweat. Now if I work at something hard, I have sweat dripping off me - like I always did before Lyme.

I almost forgot to mention I also take Lumbrokinise. I take 2 capsules, twice a day. I take Allergy Research brand, as I just can't afford Boluke with everything else.

I'm getting veins back in my hands and feet.

So, this is just my two cents on the subject. I understand this is not a healthy diet and can not stay on it for life. But since it's the first thing that's worked, I'm sticking with it for probably a year.

I know this is a little disjointed, but it's mostly a brain dump. Just wanted to get my thoughts out there.
Posted by FL1953 (Member # 38132) on :
Marnie, what other microbiologists have failed to find to this organism? I'm not aware of other microbioligists being involved at all.

He recommended the low fat diet because he found the organism grew exponentially faster in the presence of lipids, argenine and magnesium.

I've never seen him to profess to be an expert in nutrition.

He is however an expert in this organism. I know dozens of people who have been helped by this diet, where nothing else has ever helped.

[ 07-31-2012, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: FL1953 ]
Posted by bigdreams87 (Member # 20493) on :
You should be looking at fat calories vs. total calories. Try to keep fat calories under 15% of total calories.
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
A new microorganism has to be confirmed by others (microbiologists) before it is "accepted" as such and

not just a mutation of some already known organism.

Bb needs tryptophan. It cannot grow in ANY nutrient combinations that don't have tryptophan. is very hard to grow Bb.

I am glad you are feeling better on this diet AND all of your Rxs and supplements.

My son would go into extreme depression on low fat as genetically he HAS to have fats.

His cholesterol is TOO LOW...way too low and this has just been linked to (his) autism.

What works for one may not work for all. For some who have genetic differences, this diet MIGHT make matters WORSE.


Our liver uses lactate + H -> lactic acid + glutamine -> glucose...preferentially. This is called gluconeogenesis and it can happen here too:

Our KIDNEYS use lactate + H -> lactic acid + arginine -> glucose.

Theoretically lowering the levels of arginine (2nd most abundant amino acid).

Halt liver gluconeogenesis...upregulate kidney gluconeogenesis.

Bb uses Mn for most of "his" enzymes - esp. MnSOD. We use Mg for most of ours.

It would not be logical for Bb to use Mg because Mg is anti-inflammatory, anti-histamine and most importantly, it inhibits HMG CoA reductase (like statins and berberine). Bb follows the cholesterol pathway to build "his" cell walls.

Bb's toxin exists and it does this:

Mg-ATP -> Mg (out) and ATP -> ADP + cAMP (way up).

cAMP levels prevent cell death...the cell is crying out for help.

Meanwhile ADP + ribose (if not stolen by Bb to make "his" RNA) -> DNA REPAIR...ours.

And yes, our DNA is damaged...undermethylated and the impact of ROS also.

FL1953...given your location listed in your profile, you might be interested in how Bb impacts (negatively) RHO via "his" ADP-ribosyltransferase and look at the Greek translation for RHO.

As in Chi RHO.

[ 07-29-2012, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: Marnie ]
Posted by FL1953 (Member # 38132) on :
I was on all those ABX and supplements before I tried adding the diet. Nothing else has ever worked.

It's my understanding that others will attempt to replicate Dr. F's findings once he's published them. I've read that the publication is in the works.

All I care about is I've found something that works. I have my life back again, where I used to have no hope.

Everyone has their own path to wellness, this is mine.

To be honest Marnie, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
Posted by surprise (Member # 34987) on :
I, for one, am grateful when folks write they are having improvement-

(especially in energy!)
Posted by riverspirit (Member # 19435) on :
To FL1953 ~ thanks for sharing what is helping you. Just one thing ~ you said that you are not taking any anti-parasitics. The cryptolepis is an anti-protozoal herb. And a very strong one!

We are each so different and i'm enjoying reading what is helping some people. There are people who have healed themselves of all sorts of "incurable" illnesses by doing all sorts of things.

Ultimately we each have to feel into what helps us and what doesn't help. There is no "right" or "wrong" here.

I appreciate how people brought to the conversation many factors, including the links to Matt Stone's blog.

Thank you ~
Posted by FL1953 (Member # 38132) on :
Riverspirit, you're right I did forget Crypto was a anti-protozoal drug. I probably started the diet about a month beore starting the Crypto and the Lumbrokinese. I'll tell you, even a small dose makes me so sleepy.

I've tried other anti-parasitic protocols in the past with no improvement. Done heavy metal detox, with no improvement. Done IV ABX with no improvement.

My improvement came when I started the diet.

Marni, thank you for pointing out all my mispellings and other points that you think are in error.

I came here to share my story to help others.

But same old LymeNet. Just takes one member to **** on someone's parade enough to make them stop posting.

This certainly will be my last post.

As far as Hades goes as a location. It was a whim. You analyse things to a fault.

Later Lymenet.
Posted by nefferdun (Member # 20157) on :
Fl1953, please do come back and post again. Your experience is very helpful to everyone. We are all in this together.

Marnie, your arrogant response was very put downish and rude. So what if he misspells something. We all make typos and misspell words. I won't bother reading your posts any more.

Dr. Fr did not recommend a low fat diet until some of his patients who tried it reported it helped them recover. He then did some research and found protomyxzoa multiplies 150 times faster with lipids.

If you just eat whole foods and eliminate frying your foods in fat, drenching vegetables in fat and eating animals, you can do this diet. Processed vegetable oils are not healthy so I can't figure out why people think they would be missing important nutrients not to use them.

One of the most healthy forms of fat is chia seed. Half an oz has 4.5 grams of fat and 2,500 mg of omega 3's. You can substitute chia for eggs and fat in many baked goods. You just have to educate yourself to use this diet correctly. 3 oz of wild Atlantic salmon has about 2,200 mg of omega 3's and 7 grams of fat, so the chia seed is superior to salmon in terms of amounts of omega 3 fat oz per oz.

It is also highly energizing. The Aztec Indians used them for long distance running and it is believed to be one of the reasons they were so successful in their conquests. They carried chia seeds and did not have to stop to eat.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
There are some very interesting observations here. I like to read the threads & see what people are posting & how they do with the various ideas about how to get well.

I believe that we as humans are very adaptable in diet. I've read of people who eat alot of fats like the Eskimo but I don't know about any cultures that ate a very low fat diet. I'm going to study it further. I'm also going to look at the videos posted when I get a chance.

Also, I think Dr. Fs findings are very interesting! I was a bit skeptical at first but it's pretty big news about his observations. I'm going to keep an open mind. Especially in light of how many people here are discovering that they can't get well & they have improvements when treating parasites in general.

It's very possible that this FL1953 can live on fats. I'm not a scientist but I do like to study these things. I'm going to give it some further thought.

Some people do well with the Marshall protocol but it's a bit too out there for me. So, everyone is different in what they may respond to.

I love chia in those kombucha beverages you can get at the healthfood store. I was getting really addicted to them.

Thanks for the info. I think it's best to keep an open mind about things. You never know... I think this protomyxzoa may be a hugely important discovery. Especially if it's spread via mosquito. The more times one is bitten as they get older - the more likely that they can have it. That really blew my mind.

I can see why Dr. F is holding his cards close to his chest about all of this. There are a lot of new discoveries about diet these days - especially a callory restricted diet, etc. There's alot of bad foods with dangerous rancid fats - genetically modified, gene spliced weird "franken" foods about to be marketed to us. It's probably not a bad idea at all to do some dramatic rethinking of diet in light of all of this.

I was just reading the other day that apples are now being genetically modified... Strange days, indeed.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Wow... I see a lot of yeast coming on with a diet like that. It would do me in for sure.
Posted by nefferdun (Member # 20157) on :
I have no yeast issues at all and I eat a LOT of fruit. I do not need antibiotics any more. Stromectol does not cause yeast. But if you are taking abx, then you would have to limit your fruit.

My son is diabetic so I have studied the glycemic index which is how quickly food is converted into glucose in the blood. This would affect yeast as well. The basics of this diet are low to medium on the Glycemic Index.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Originally posted by nefferdun:
I have no yeast issues at all and I eat a LOT of fruit. I do not need antibiotics any more. Stromectol does not cause yeast. But if you are taking abx, then you would have to limit your fruit.

My son is diabetic so I have studied the glycemic index which is how quickly food is converted into glucose in the blood. This would affect yeast as well. The basics of this diet are low to medium on the Glycemic Index.

I'm not even on antibiotics. STill have trouble. I do eat an apple once in awhile. I love them.
Posted by NJFitnessGuy (Member # 30886) on :
I have tried almost every single type nutritional program under the sun over the last 12 years without cheating more than a couple times on each.

The low fat diet, vegan diet, atkins diet, etc., etc.

There is definitely NOT a one size fits all diet for lyme or any other disease or ailment, IMO.

Through my experience alone, I believe it all comes down to individualized genetics, blood type, etc.

I have done best on Dr. Peter D`Adamo`s Genotype Swami diet. I am a O+ Explorer and I eat a lot of animal products.

I eat all organic/grass fed and I do try to keep my fruit intake to a minimal, although sweet fruits such as pineapple and grapes are a superfood for my type and never seemed to have a negative effect on me.

My diet mostly consists of beef, cod, eggs, turkey, egg white protein powder, carob, kale, spinach, broccoli, onions, olive oil, Curry, Brown Rice(4x week post weight training), pineapple(4 x week), mozzerella chesse(1x per week) and some pecans or macadamia nuts from time to time.

I eliminate all wheat, gluten, corn, soy and dairy(except mozzerella cheese). Just drink water, so no artificial sweetners, etc..

It`s great to hear that the low fat diet has worked well for a few individuals. I know it never worked for me.
Posted by MichaelTampa (Member # 24868) on :
I did something like this diet about a year ago for about 6 weeks and needed to go extra on the Sacch Boulardi and probiotics during this time.

Nowadays, my yeast issue is much better controlled, and that is not an issue for me, although I still am eating fruit on an extremely limited basis (0-1-2 small portions a week). I did run into some blood sugar issues when I started a diet like this back up again recently, but have added back some minerals (zinc, chromium, vanadium) in supplement form and that is back under control.

This diet is definitely a potential challenge for those with the candida/yeast/fungus type issues. Almost need to have that under a certain level of control before trying it, I would think.
Posted by hadlyme (Member # 6364) on :
Thank you FL1953 for your words! Please do not let one person stop you from sharing your story!

You had wisdom and knowledge in your post! And speaking from experience and heart is the BEST thing possible!

For the 'wanttabee' know it alls in here... please? what really really really seriously is your point you are trying to make?

Good grief... if you don't want to do a way of eating that makes you feel better, then don't knock what others are doing.

If you don't like what we are doing and that we are feeling better doing it.. then Move On. Go to another thread please.

Peace People!!
Posted by FL1953 (Member # 38132) on :
Working on getting an FL1953 group going over on MDJunction if anyone is interested. The group is not active yet, but probably will be in a day or so.

To address the yeast concerns; they are valid.

It's the one thing I worried about when starting this diet. So far I've had no yeast issues at all. Perhaps because I don't eat bread, or anything with wheat in it.

I don't eat any sugar, not even honey. I do eat plenty of fruit, but no bananas or grapes.
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
FL1953, did you ever have yeast prior to this? It is the one thing holding me back from embracing this diet full on. :(

I have eliminated nuts from my diet though. It has been really hard, but that alone has knocked off 25g that I was eating per day.

Now I eat 50-64gm/day (was 80-100gm), but that is no where near the 15grams Dr. F. recommends. I do feel better though.

Still waiting to take the test.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
I'm curious to see how people are doing with this diet. I'll probably wait for a few months before considering it - just to see how people are doing. I think the most gain is from the anti-parasite protocol rather than the diet but I don't know for sure.

There's alot we don't know so I'm still skeptical. I heard that diet accounts for 60% of illness in women & 40% in men. I don't know if this is just for cancer or other illnesses or how this number was obtained. It was on a radio show with Dr. Simone -

I don't like being to persnicketty about diet. It's just my personality... Some people are very good about keeping track of everything. I just try to survive & eat what's available. Not that I eat alot of junk food but it's hard for me to spend all day shopping, doing kitchen work, & cooking.

Good quality food is getting harder & harder to find & it's really expensive.
Posted by FL1953 (Member # 38132) on :
Catgirl, no I've never really had problems with yeast during treatment. I was fortunate to have a good LLMD who prescribed a lot of probiotics from the beginning.

I've been in treatment for over 2.5 years, different oral combos, some IV, Cowden, BWF's, but through it all I've taken UltraFlora, Saccaymycin (yes, I know I mispelled that), and Theralac. When I was on the most ABX I also took VSL#3.

I know what you mean about eliminating nuts. I was a peanut butter junky, probably a jar a week just myself, natural kind. And I munched on other nuts all the time. I do miss them.

I am at 10-15 grams of fat per day now, sometimes less, sometimes a little more. I cheat once a week and eat some meat.

The only anti parasitic I'm on is Crytpolepis, but I was on the diet for a few months before starting that, and I was already starting to improve.

I won't lie, sometimes the diet is really hard. You've got to like beans, lentils, brown rice, fruits and vegetables. That's not a lot of variety and I get tired of eating the same old thing.

The only advice I would give to someone considering the diet is to prepare. I really didn't and it made it much more difficult. Find some really good low fat recipes until you have enough to choose from.

If you don't, one of two things will happen. You'll either give up on the diet very quickly, or it will become a control issue and you won't eat.

Unfortunately, that's what I've done a few times. I've gone a few days at a time without eating because I could figure out what to eat.

That's not healthy at all, but in my mind it was the first control I've had over my condition since it all began.
Posted by hadlyme (Member # 6364) on :
I have found that in the beginning, I kept a notebook by my fridge and would write down all the fat grams of things I ate. This alone made me aware of what numbers I was eating.

After a few weeks, I quite writing them down after I got a handle on what I was doing.

I do eat a little chicken and grass fed beef. Dr. F does know that I do this. So, lower fat, no oils, no nuts, whole foods, veggies, fruits. I find that I really can eat quite a bit.

I might stay at about 20-25 a day.... and I'm doing great on that.

Find what works, start out slow. Don't go from normal eating to 15 grams a day. I think that's too drastic and hard to do.

I do not worry about yeast, but I pulse one week a month with Diflucan. I've never had 'problems' with it that I know of. [Smile]
Posted by nefferdun (Member # 20157) on :
You have to build up favorite recipes which takes time. Lots of experimentation. Here is a site with a lot of low fat recipes.

I am not strictly adhering to vegan but I do count fat grams and try to stay around 15 grams. I feel it is important to adhere to the diet as closely as possible. When I overdo my cheats I feel it.

I have been off the ivermectin for three days and have almost no symptoms. I just hope I don' relapse in the winter. That is the real test. I will restart the ivermectin soon and pulse it.
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
Michael, I know you mentioned you had to deal with yeast before. How are you doing this? What are you eating?
Posted by MichaelTampa (Member # 24868) on :
Breakfast is either oatmeal or quinoa. Occasionally 1/2 of a walnut or 1 tsp of hemp seeds mixed in. Other than that, nothing added.

Lunch is often lentils or beans with veggies in there, no oil added.

Dinner is where I get most of my fat for the day. Corn/quinoa pasta or bread; plus some form of veggie burgers would end a pretty typical day. There is one brand now that has coconut in there, 6-7 grams each total. Another brand is more soy and sprouted grains style.

I was challenged a little more with blood sugar than yeast, it seems. I am now taking GlycoCinn product bought at (same site that sells TriQuench iodine). I have been monthly doing parasites during full moons, and continue to take lyme nosodes with an occasional GcMAF boost. I have also increased the amount of protein pills I am taking each day, as my higher fat diet also was higher in protein.

All of this challenges with metals and yeast. I seem to be coping fairly well, though, hanging in there decently. Last year when I did this for 6 weeks it was a lot worse. My yeast is much better now, thought still an issue requiring regular attention. Metagenics CandiBactin BR and Seagate OLE and Custom Probiotics (6-strain and 11-strain versions) and SacchBoulardi and DigestaLac probiotics from Natrens are keeping things in check. Occasional oil pulling as well. Last time I was taking 3-4 of the CandiBactin per meal. This time, some days I have to take one, some days I don't. Yet when I tried adding a small amount of fruit in with the oatmeal (1/4 blueberries or raspberries, or 1 kiwi), after a few days the yeast was getting seriously out of control. Perhaps it was timed bad with other treatments and I'd manage it now. I'm amazed to read about neff and others handling so much fruits, I'm sure that wouldn't work for me these days. It seems there is quite a continuum we are all on different parts of regarding how much we can handle with regard to carbs and fruits.
Posted by RC1 (Member # 31923) on :
I had done the diet for a couple of months. My LLMD told me he didn't like it that I wasn't eating enough protein. I was also getting very light headed and my liver function was a little low.

I decided to go off the diet and see how I felt. I didn't really feel any different. I am also not eating much chicken or eating nuts like I was before.

I think for me I might have been dealing with an allergy situation because I felt immediately better when I didn't eat meat that first night. By meat, I mean chicken, I ate chicken and nuts every day.

I will still continue to eat lower protein and lower fat than I was before the diet. I don't know for sure that I have the Fry bug, I was never tested. I think eating more veg and less meat and fat is probably healthier, Fry Bug or no Fry Bug.

I am not lightheaded anymore, and I just had some blood work the other day and my liver function has come up. (I googled the markers that were low for me, and it said it can come from starvation) I never had that before the diet.

I guess what I am saying is that if you do do the diet make sure you get enough protein. I had tried soy, but didn't do well on it, I think that could be another allergy for me.
Posted by MichaelTampa (Member # 24868) on :
Just wanted to report, for those interested, I got back my Fry Lab results today. Those results said that their PCR test did find evidence/genes of the FL1953.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
Thanks for the info everyone. My feeling today is that the diet is too severe. I'm going to continue to look in to see how people are doing.

I can see someone older or overweight doing this for a bit but I can't see a young person doing this. I think people need balance in the diet & we do need protein. I don't think tofu, beans or veggie burgers cut it.

From what Dr. F said - I would be surprised if people didn't have the FL1953... He seems to think it can be spread via mosquito.
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
Thank you for your diet info Michael. :)

I had a feeling about the FL1953. I'm sorry to hear you have it, but happy to hear you know. I think it's better to know than to guess. I'm going to get tested so I will know for sure. I don't want to make things worse by adding more fat. My diet is already 38% fat (and that was after I pared it down).

I'm going to try some grains this weekend. I have been doing something similar to one of the things you do, except that instead of the candibactin, I upped my probiotic to 75 billion cultures per meal. It really seems to help.

I take so many supplements, I wasn't sure if I could mix candibactin with everything, including malarone, so I take it at night, or sometimes I take plant enzymes.

Micahel, have you figured out how much total protein you are getting per day? I read that you are taking a protein pill (is it soy based?). I need to stay away from soy.

RZR, thanks for sharing about the protein too. Are you eating or did you eat very many beans prior to your blood test?
Posted by MichaelTampa (Member # 24868) on :
I always test for the CandiBactin BR during meals (with food). I believe I'm taking it primarily for yeast.

Following the test, I am adding malarone as well.

I really haven't counted protein in the diet. I am taking 25 grams a day in high quality supplement, "MAP Protein" is it's name. I take it in 3 doses (10/5/10). This is pure protein, nothing else in it. It needs to be taken 25 minutes before meals to be properly utilized. Unfortunately, it is a bit on the expensive side.

I also just energy tested to add in some hemp seed protein, 7.5 grams a day, which will also add in about 2 grams of fat a day. So, it has been 25 grams/day plus whatever is in the oats / quinoa / lentils / quinoa/corn or rice pasta / various veggie burgers. But looks like it's headed toward 32-33 grams/day plus the food.

My protein supplementing needs have absolutely increased as I've continued to move away from foods that had been high fat and high protein. In the end, the body needs the protein, whether from foods or supplements. As a vegan, I have fewer choices on the protein, and this is what I've come up with. For those not restricting themselves in that way, there are at least a couple/few more options ... egg whites (I think neff is doing that), I know there is 1 or 2 types of fish that are very low fat (look out for mercury and hormones and other chemicals, but perhaps it could be achieved).

Hilary's is a brand of veggie burger I am using a lot. Most of it's fat comes from coconut, a "good" saturated fat. There are other brands with good ingredients and decent protein. I sometimes test for more "junky" ingredient veggie burgers too, they are higher in protein from soy, so I believe my body is saying it wants that protein, even if it comes with phytoestrogens and other chemicals/junk. Perhaps after the hemp seed protein is added in, that will change.

Most soy and/or rice based protein supplements are LOADED with mercury. At least, that was the case 5 years ago, perhaps things have changed. I believe it probably comes from the equipment it is processed on, as those metals often have mercury in them. When I take hemp protein powder, I use Nutiva brand, which I consider much better than Manitoba Farms brand.

Over the last 1-2 weeks, I have started testing and eating something more like 18 grams of fat/day, rather than the 28 grams that I had been steady on for at least a couple weeks. I had mainly eaten just plain grains for breakfast and plain lentils/beans for lunch, and then taken about 12-14 grams of fat at dinner, just energy testing what to take at dinner. After testing today the amount per day, it occurred to me that is what I had been doing for at least a week, without knowing it. So, I am way down to almost what Dr. F. recommends (18 and 15 are both VERY low, and pretty close in the grand scheme of things).

Editing to add I have also increased my DHA intake to 750mg/day, with EPA holding at 600mg/day. Sparkle has a post with "low-fat" in the tagline talking about the essential fatty acids and how they may help kill some parasites. So, not only just generally essential for a lot of activities, despite being fat, they may well help fight the FL1953.
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
I thought I'd give an update here. I have been chelating heavy metals all summer. I finally tried some anti parasitic herbs, added some stuff that's in "the Core" (KPU), discovered enzymes for yeast, and my yeast got better. I can even eat a little fruit now (yay)! So, because I've reduced my yeast issues, I am now able to embrace a low fat diet.

I discovered a few weeks ago that I can no longer eat nuts or avocados (been eating them my whole life) without feeling like crap (babs symptoms). I never really made the connection before, even though I kept a journal (sometimes I'm clueless). So I quit eating nuts, avocados, eggs and drastically reduced my fat intake. What a difference this made! I feel much better when I do this. I am still eating a little bit of meat though (working through it).

I'm still working on getting my fat levels down even more. The more I do, the better I feel. I know it sounds weird, but it's working. I struggle with the fish oil and tried not taking it a week. I noticed that I feel better on it even if it is every few days. I'm thinking if I eliminate meat completely, then I can take the fish oil again. I like your suggestions, Michael. Maybe I should incorporate protein powder too. I just can't take any soy (allergic to it).

We are all different, and have to do whatever is good for each of us, individually. I just wanted to share that anyone who has babs symptoms, IMO, should definitely give this diet a try.

I am no longer living to eat, I'm eating to live. And the best part is, my knee pain is gone, baby gone!

Thank you Nefferdun, Hadlyme, Michael and everyone else who provided all the great info here. [Smile]
Posted by hadlyme (Member # 6364) on :
Great News Catgirl!

It is really pretty simple huh.... lower fat grams makes us feel better. It's weird huh!

Glad that Knee pain is gone!!!!
Posted by nefferdun (Member # 20157) on :
That is wonderful Catgirl. My knee pain is gone too. Be careful of protein powder because the biofilm thrives on arginine. We do not need as much protein as we have been lead to believe.

In fact, protein produces ammonia. Getting rid of the ammonia uses up molecules necessary for generating neurotransmitters and glutathione.

You are allowed 15 grams of fat per day. There are 14 grams of fat in 1 TB of oil so your little fish oil capsule is not a problem. Look at how much is in it and add that to your daily total to try to keep your grams to less than 20, and hopefully around 15.

One avocado has about 24 grams of fat and nuts are loaded. I was eating a lot of nuts and cheese and butter because I thought I needed it to properly absorb that very expensive mepron (how could you possibly waste it!). It turns out I was feeding the protomyxzoa and sure enough it took over.

I also gained 10 pounds. Now I have lost 20 pounds. It feels great and I eat all that I want.

Cooking interesting meals is a challenge. The new protomyxzoa site is sharing recipes which is very helpful. You may want to visit.
Posted by MichaelTampa (Member # 24868) on :
Great to hear your news, Catgirl. I continue on this very low fat diet as well, although I am really making zero progress symptomwise and am extremely fatigued.

As I have continued on this diet longer (related or not), I am testing for more pills, including those that do have fat. With all of them, I just added them up, and it ranges from 12-15 grams a day of fat that is in the pills I am eating (energy testing as very helpful). The food I eat is very low-fat.

These pills include phosphatidyl-choline / serine / etc., EPA, DHA, vitamin E, artemisinin suppository, EDTA suppository, vitamin K2, mila, and hemp protein powder. The mila and hemp have the linolenic and linoleic acids that someone on here found can be good to help treat another protozoa.

I am also taking malarone.

I do feel some progress has been made with regard to circulation, and some funny brown spots on the bottom of my legs have decreased substantially in quantity (yet there are still plenty).

I am getting close to starting on hydrocortisone and maybe thyroid meds.

I am eating lots of pasta with spaghetti sauce, a childhood favorite that my body is tolerating well these days. No problems here with the same thing over and over, I've been that way much of the time, even with plenty of choices. I am looking forward to the season changing where winter squash with flavor becomes available.
Posted by Cass A (Member # 11134) on :
Dear Friends,

I've been very interested to read through this entire thread! Haven't been reading or posting to LymeNet for many months, as I'm currently doing dental/chiropractic treatment for Chronic Cerebral-Spinal Venous Insufficiency (CCSVI)structrual issues.

Some time ago, I also was doing research on the Fry bug (FL1953), named protomyxzoa, and decided that, due to earlier hypercoagulation issues that were successfully treated with Rechts Regulat, I most probably have it. I've not gotten the test done yet.

The worst symptomatic effects of Lyme and co-infections for me are seizures, followed by brain fog, memory loss, and chronic fatigue.

Dr. K's regime of chlorella followed 30 minutes later with cilantro tincture has definitely helped with the brain fog!

The chiropractor I'm seeing as part of the structural handling of CCSVI recommended a ketogenic, high-fat diet to me, as it is a successful treatment for epilepsy. Not recalling the cautions from Dr. F regarding fats, I increased my fats. Seemed to help. Until yesterday......

Another factor in my diet, is that I KNOW I am a Type O, which needs animal protein. The basic blood type of a person does have a great impact on what diet will work for them.

Too much fruit and/or grains, and I start to get insulin reactions and need to sleep even more!!

A naturopathic doctor I know recommends that no grains or seeds or nuts be eaten unless they are sprouted, as otherwise they contain substances that block the digestive enzymes----this is how seeds can stay "alive" in the soil (or in Egyptian tombs!) for so long.

Much has recently been brought up about fermented foods (not here) and how these improve the immune system in the gut, and how that system of beneficial bacteria can be harmed with antibiotics. Well, I was taking Zithromax with Mepron for 10 months a while back, and had really done nothing to regenerate these beneficial guys, so I started making and eating my own cultured vegetables, kombucha, and water kefir.

Additional info relates to Genetically Modified Organisms in foods (GMOs), which are more and more being exposed as harmful to anyone's health!! At the top of the "harmful" list are soy and corn, which are now found in just about every processed food under many names (natural flavors, high fructose corn syrup, just to get started on looking at this issue).

I'd love for this conversation to be updated and continued. Long-term results are what we are all looking for.


Cass A
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
I'm bumping this thread up for people who have tried everything, as well as for people with unrelenting babs (symptoms are similar).
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
I was reading another person's thread last night and recognized some protomxzoa (proto) symptoms. I had an "ah ha" moment that hit me like a ton of bricks. I tested negative for this bug but came to the conclusion last night that I definitely have it. I feel good about the fact that I finally figured it out, as well as that I'm accepting it now. You'd think I would have figured it out the first time with my success when trying a low diet (above). Lol!

I remember going low fat last year and feeling better. I also believed I kicked my bart then too (bart is back now). Then I tried some fats again since deep down I didn't think I had proto (negative test, and thought getting rid of bart was why I felt better). I didn't have a problem for many months. I didn't go crazy with the fats, I just cut some fats down, just in case. I felt like I balanced my diet, and had it down (maybe I did).

I can now see that eating more fat helped proto grow again (slowly). It was so subtle, and easy for me to miss even though I kept a journal. My journal is helping me now though to confirm all of this. I am thrilled with the fact that I almost kicked bart just by going low fat, and eating much less meat. Doing so allowed the herbs I took to kill it (knock it back) because the biofilm wall was down, so the herbs got through.

I know other people with proto have kicked some of their co infections, so now I'm on a quest to achieve similar results. I'm back to cutting the fat and animal products, TODAY! This gives me hope, because if I can knock out my co infections, I will be one happy camper. I've already knocked some seriously obvious babs symptoms out the door, even with the proto. It's been slow though, probably slower than it is for people without proto.

So I'm feeling like I can still improve now (YAY!). My progress with bart was faster last year when I cut the fat/meat. I just didn't keep it up long enough to kill it. Imagine how fast we can do this by lowering our fat and cutting out and/or eliminating arginine (animal products, nuts)!

I know we are all different, and proto shows up and reacts differently with everyone which is probably why people miss it. It's stealthly hidden, yet makes enough biofilm to make all my symptoms wax a wane. Parasite treatment has helped kick it down some too, IMO.

As far as diet goes, I'm going back to eating a lower fat/meat diet, lots of veggies and gluten free grains, and cooking without oils. I can handle a few soaked nuts, but cannot tolerate nut butters (feel worse). Beef makes me feel bad too (even low fat). No issues with avocados (thank god). I don't know why since they are loaded with fat though. Perhaps balance is key.

I just want to tell everyone who has unrelenting symptoms that come and go (with lyme and all the co infections), to try low fat, and low to no arginine. And as far as tests go, tests are just tests. They are fallible. You can just try eating the Dr. F way and if you notice some things start to improve, bingo, you've figured it out!

[ 07-20-2013, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: Catgirl ]
Posted by GretaM (Member # 40917) on :
Hi all,
Very interesting thread! Thanks for all the brainstorming-awesome ideas and tips!

Just a question regarding coconut oil...

Does anyone know if, because it is metabolised differently and goes directly to energy, without being processed like other fats, does in necessarily contribute to overall "fat" amount each day?

Also, I am type O, and have a hard time digesting grains and beans.
On the rare occasion I eat them, I soak them for 24 hours in an acidic medium before cooking... I think nuts can be soaked in this way also.
Has anyone tried this with nuts?

I'm not doing particularily low fat.. My fat comes from an avocado daily, tablespoon of pumpkin seed butter (blast those parasites), coconut oil and
Whole milk in my coffee. (a dirty habit, haha-just can't drink it black)

And I agree with the fruit... Any fruit besides cherries and pomegranates make my stomach boil and bloat instantly. Fruit affects me so much, I sometimes imagine making the sign of a cross towards it... Haha

Thanks for sharing your experiences, all. [Smile]
Posted by hadlyme (Member # 6364) on :
No oils, nuts or avocado's on the low fat. That includes coconut oil.
The arginine thing isn't as big of an issue anymore per dr.
I don't do a super low fat diet anymore, but do watch that I stay away from high fat meals and foods.
Yes, we can feel better from eating lower fat. And, Catgirl, thanks for revisiting this thread and the low fat! Great news!
There are many protozoans being found, so if you don't have this one, you might have another one.
Hopefully more news on this will be out in the months to come.
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
Thanks Hadlyme and my pleasure (revisiting thread)! That is great to know about the arginine too!

When I cut back last year, my diet wasn't super low fat, I just cut back, and it helped. I re read Dr. F's interview last night. He said that he's pretty sure people have different strains of this organism. I guess that would explain the different symptoms and varying degrees of tolerable amounts of fat that people can handle (balance).

If only people could wrap their heads around this. Maybe they don't want to admit it because they don't want to change their diets (that was me originally). The diet I did last year was not that restrictive. I slacked the past few months and had bacon on the weekends, chips, pizza, oils, nut butters. This is where proto grew.

I guess for some it's similar to diabetics who won't change their diets. Maybe some fear in there too. People are too addicted to food, IMO. Yeast can also make them do this. I didn't think I could do this diet a year ago. I just convinced myself of that until I read your and Nefferdun's posts--Michael's too. I also thought I couldn't do it because I had MASSIVE yeast, and I'm thin thanks to lyme and company. It wasn't the case though. I just ate more of the right kinds of food.

This is not a death sentence, it's freedom to know the answers. Knowledge is power. Lyme and all of my co infections, parasites and heavy metals are the issues at hand for me. Eating low fat so I actually have the opportunity to kill them off/knock them back is so obvious to me now. I've found the key to unlock the door and it's a major step in the right direction.

Best wishes to everyone, and cut the fat!
Posted by GretaM (Member # 40917) on :
Catgirl you're right... trial and error is the best way. Try something at 100% and see how one feels.

I do want to feel better, so ditching avocados should be a worthy trade for feeling good. [Smile]

Coconut oil will be easy. Whole milk and coffee can both go. Pumpkin seed butter can stay-1 TBSP=9 grams of fat and is anti-parasitic.

OK, I'll jump into the pool... [Smile]
Posted by nefferdun (Member # 20157) on :
It was interesting reading through this thread again. It has been16 months since I began the low fat diet and I am doing well. I am glad there are other, like you Catgirl, that are willing to give it a try.

I was off stromectol (ivermectin) for about 6 months. I took it every now and then when I felt symptoms emerging again but overall I was not using any drugs except LDN.

I became slack with the diet and taking my methyl cycle supplements and started getting some symptoms back. It wasn't serious but it could become serious, so I am trying to be more consistent.

I am still not taking the supplements twice a day. I can't believe how forgetful I am - or maybe I am just tired of pill popping. I am doing fairly well with the diet except I have developed a mania for homemade low fat frozen yogurt. One cup has 3 grams of fat but I often eat the whole thing with the puppy's help!

So I had to re-start the stromectol but I only take it 2-3 times a week. I am doing very poorly as far as having a schedule or plan for anything. I just take it when I think about it. If I feel fine, I don't think about it.

The symptoms I have are mild stiffness in the morning. Most of the symptoms I had before I don't have now - they were extreme fatigue, inability to concentrate, stabbing nerve pain, nasal congestion. . . I am getting some headaches too.

When I noticed it was coming back I was getting a hoarse voice and having some anxiety when I rode my horse. These things would be so easy to dismiss especially at my age. What 66 year old person does not have morning stiffness? Well, I didn't a month ago so I am not allowing it to become my new normal.

If I just stuck to the plan, I could probably live to a ripe old age and not be taking drugs to stay alive.
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
I'm sorry Greta, my response really wasn't meant for you, as I saw you were new on this board. It was primarily meant for people who haven't made much progress and/or people who haven't given the low fat diet a shot. You may not even have proto.

Although Dr. F. said he has found it profoundly in everyone with auto immune diseases, which includes CFS patients. CFS is a nice name for lyme, IMO. That tells me a lot of people have it. And if they don't have it, they could still get it in the future. He found it in mosquitoes, although he's not sure it's transmissible from them, yet.

That is awesome you are giving the diet a try! It's easy to do, and the best way to find out, IMO.

I am type O too. I take lots of digestive enzymes to help with digestion. I also soak beans for 48 hrs (much better, less gas).

Best wishes to you!
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
Nefferdun, I am happy to hear that you are doing well. :) I noticed it too the other night with a hoarse voice. I just forgot it was a symptom.

Have you tried humaworm yet? I've noticed that it makes me feel better just like iver does. I take it and salt/c the same day.
Posted by hadlyme (Member # 6364) on :
Love what you said Catgirl! (It's not a death sentence thing!)

I don't do that extra low fat anymore.. and Neff... I think you deserve the yogurt! You've been so faithful with all the other aspects!

I'm still on zith, malarone, diflucan, b12. I'll be traveling back to AZ in a few weeks.... keeping tabs on anything new from Dr F!

This way of eating doesn't cost anything extra. I don't know why people don't want to try it. It's not like it's costing thousands in travel or seeing llmds out of pocket. It's just eating whole foods.

Some people do herx on the diet at first... so anyone trying it, please be aware that you might feel worse before better.
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
Thanks Hadlyme! I'm glad to hear you no longer have to do the extra low fat anymore. And I agree, Neff deserves the yogurt. [Smile]

I forgot to ask you about arginine not being that big of a deal anymore. So do people who have an issue with it just up their lysine?

That's great you're going to see the man. Please let us know if there is any new info, and have a great trip!
Posted by faithful777 (Member # 22872) on :
Eating low fat foods means you are eating lots of fake foods and additives. If you need to cut back calories, then figure out what you should be eating daily and cut back 2-300 calories below that number.

Eat whole good fats but just watch your consumption. Your body will thank you for not eating all those things you can't pronounce.
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
Originally posted by faithful777:
Eating low fat foods means you are eating lots of fake foods and additives. If you need to cut back calories, then figure out what you should be eating daily and cut back 2-300 calories below that number.

?? Faithful, this thread is about lowering fat for protomyxzoa, not weight.
Posted by nefferdun (Member # 20157) on :
Yes, it has nothing to do with weight and it sure isn't fake food we are tailing about. This is the most healthy diet I have ever been on. I look and feel like my old self.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words. So before you question the health aspect of not eating fat, here is a picture of me I took a few days ago. I am 66 years old. I have more wrinkles than you can see in this shot but I don't dye my hair or wear make up.

Even my husband who smoked for 30 years looks younger and his cholesterol is normal for the first time in years. We are both down to our ideal weight without trying. In fact, I eat all I want and I eat a LOT!

We are getting enormous amounts of good food instead of fat. Fat is empty calories. We supplement phosphytidylcholine every day and that is the most essential fatty acid. The processed oil you use for frying is highly inflammatory, not good for you at all.
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
Nice pic Nefferdun (you definitely don't look 66)!

Phosphytidylcholine is a good idea.
Posted by surprise (Member # 34987) on :
Neff, you look GREAT!!
And beautiful flowers :-)
Posted by hadlyme (Member # 6364) on :
Great Pic Neff! glad to put a face to you after all these years! Looking great!

And yes, this has nothing to do with losing weight! I wish I COULD lose weight. And low fat is the healthiest thing I've ever done! Whole foods.... how can they be fake? Give me fresh veggies and fruits any day.

Again, it's a 'free' treatment for the protozoan and other protozoan's out there. It was the missing link for me all those years of treatment.

Yes, I'll always treat with drugs too... but if I can call that my 'normal' and live ok, why not.

I've been seeing dr. F for over 7 yrs now. He really was my missing link too. As my name says, back in 1999 when I was first treated for lyme and babs I thought, 'ok... this sort of makes sense, but not completely'. Then when I relapsed and was living in Scottsdale, I found through our lyme support group this dr. He made sense. Wasn't 'selling' anything but wanting to figure it out.
Posted by birdie67 (Member # 35994) on :
Neff, you look great!! Beautiful hair too [Smile]
Posted by CD57 (Member # 11749) on :
Wow, what a knockout you are!
Posted by CD57 (Member # 11749) on :
The only thing I (and my docs) don't like about it i(low fat) s that the brain is mostly made up of fat, and the myelin stuff too. Is there a way to get the brain the good fat it needs -- ie; phosphotidlcholine or omegas, what is the best brain fat? while trying this diet?
Posted by nefferdun (Member # 20157) on :
Thanks for the compliments you guys. I took stromectol yesterday and knocked myself out. I am still on the couch trying to recover. I don't know why it hit me so hard.

I went from feeling close to fine yesterday to a night with hot flashes, sweating, headache, dizziness, nausea and stomach cramps. Now I am exhausted. I could attribute it all to side effects but my voice was very hoarse this morning.

Anyway, I have to re-commit to the diet all the time because I just can't tolerate drugs like most people. Dr. F said when people water fasted for two weeks the PR disappeared but within days of starting a typical American diet again, it could be found. Rarely, but today is an exception, I feel like fasting.

I have an appointment to get my blood drawn for more testing the middle of August. This time I am going to get pictures.
Posted by canga (Member # 37571) on :
Hm, quite interesting this fat issue. There is also this Swank/Jelinek diet for arresting MS - it restricts _saturated_ fat < 15g/day. Works for some people.

Posted by hadlyme (Member # 6364) on :
The whole idea of lower fat in our diet/eating, is that fat help makes the biofilm thicker, thus the little microscopic protozoan can hide better. Antibiotics have a hard time getting to it.

When we lower the fat intake, the biofilm thins out, and then drugs can get to the little buggers better.

It's not a diet to lose weight or anything like that. And, yes, the dr. that has found this, under a microscope, does a lot of things with MS too. He studies how this can affect MS, ALS and the rest of the autoimmune diseases.

Neff... I've never heard doc talk about the water fasting? Was that from a talk of his sometime? He's never said anything about that to me in any visit... ? Do you mean lower fat eating and then back to an American diet? I know he's talked about that from time to time. I'll have to look into the water thing. I wish you could come on down and see him sometime, I know you'd like what you hear and see.
Posted by GretaM (Member # 40917) on :
Neff-You look great! Very vibrant!

Stromectol herx-maybe related to increased die off from the full moon?

Is there a brand name to this phospytidycholine? Something I can get from my health food store, or is it a specialty thing?
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
Just a safety note for anyone with porphyria: fasting can be very dangerous, even fatal because it allows the porphyrin levels to rise and that becomes very toxic. Just good to know that. More detail:

Topic: what type of M.D. tests for PORPHYRIA
Posted by canga (Member # 37571) on :
Hadlyme, yes I understand the meaning of lowering fats in our diet in the context of this topic.

What I wanted to say is that - surprisingly - different approaches to chronic inflammation address fat issue. Even Marshall's dietary guidelines (yes, the anti-vitD guy) just happen to by the way reduce intake of some fats.

In other words, I see a pattern that is helping people, me included. The pattern is "Let's reduce fat intake and take some antiinflammatories/antibiotics".

Posted by nefferdun (Member # 20157) on :
Hadlyme, I found the infor about fasting twice in a condensed version of one of F's interviews. I couldn't fast two weeks (or two days at this point) but I guess that was for a very sick person.

I am seriously thinking about seeing him. Enough of this fooling around on my own - but it is just such a long exhausting trip. . . . When I get my blood work done I will decide what to do.

You can find phosphytidlycholine online - just write it in the search on I was getting phosphytidyleserene from hoistic heal but I decided they charge too much. I also notice (after a year of being on their vitamins) that their mulit has some very cheap junk in them like magnesium oxide and cyanocobalamin (SP?). Good grief.
Posted by nefferdun (Member # 20157) on :
One of my friends said she was sick yesterday with the same symptoms I had, so I guess it was not the stromectol - thank goodness!
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
I was going to post this on another thread but though it might be more helpful here.

Prior to me figuring out that I had proto, I ate tons of fats. Coconut oil by the tablespoons. Avocados, meat, cheese, butter sandwiches, nuts too. I thought all was great.

I thought my babs symptoms were babs, and my bart symptoms were bart, and my lyme symptoms were lyme. Little did I know that some of the symptoms that are normally considered to be lyme, bart and babs actually turned out to be proto. Because of this, I never thought to mention them to my doc. Most lyme patients wouldn't have a clue either. It takes time and backsliding in order to figure it out.

I feel stronger, and better when I eat meat. But I can only eat a little or the herxing comes back and I start to feel like crap again (joint pain, sweats, hot flashes, headaches behind eyes, etc). It wasn't always this way for me though. I guess I ate enough fat and eventually grew this bug to the point where I can no longer eat the fat without feeling horrible.

I've had proto for years. It has only now progressed to this point where I have to focus on limiting fats. I don't really know what made it progress to this point. Maybe it was lyme (just speculating). Had I not been aware of proto or the symptoms, I would have thought it was just babs, bart or lyme. I don't have to eat as low as 15 grams of fat to feel good though. It's different for each of us--all about balance.
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
Bumping this thread for newbies to proto.

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