A different way to treat adrenal insufficiency and hypothyroidism. And thus, this method may possibly be useful for other conditions such as chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, chronic Lyme Disease and etc.
In short, this protocol involves taking T3 thyroid in a specific way that is supposedly more in tune with your circadian rhythm. And apparently, some hypothyroid people that have not had much improvement in their symptoms with other hypothyroid protocols have seen improvements in their hypothyroid symptoms with the circadian T3 method.
Paul Robinson also states that even when your thyroid hormone levels appear to be within the normal range via blood testing that does not necessarily mean that you are not hypothyroid. Even when your thyroid hormone levels appear to be within the normal range via testing.
." It is impossible for a thyroid blood test to reveal the actual levels of FT4 and FT3 within the cells and whether cell function is actually being regulated correctly. A blood sample cannot reveal any of these things, no matter how much we may want it to.
In other words, thyroid blood tests can only, at best, provide an estimate of might be happening with thyroid hormones within the tissues. This approach works quite well for the majority of people on T4, T4/T3 or natural desiccated thyroid, as long as some of the limitations and mathematics of the reference ranges are remembered."
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Posted by n.northernlights (Member # 17934) on :
I am on a thyroid group where several have tried this, and it does work. They use it for weakish adrenals when taking thyroid hormones.
Posted by poppy (Member # 5355) on :
So how do I know if my adrenal glands are exhausted? Don't think my current doc does cortisol testing.
What does it mean when I am awakened at 4 am with dry mouth and heart beating me up?
Am already on armour.
Posted by emla999/Lyme (Member # 12606) on :
Poppy said,
quote: What does it mean when I am awakened at 4 am with dry mouth and heart beating me up?
FWIW,
It seems as though between the hours of 2 - 4 AM some people will experience an adrenal gland reaction due to nocturnal hypoglycemia and this will cause you to wake up with a rapid heart rate. And sometimes this is also accompanied with being sweaty and panicky.
And in my personal experience with this type of reaction, eating more sugar/carbs and salt and drinking less fluids is helpful at preventing and treating this reaction.
And when I say sugar, I mean white table sugar (sucrose). Although, something like honey or dried fruit may also be helpful.
So, you might want to try eating a sugary, salty snack prior to going to bed. And if you wake up at 4 am with that reaction then you could try eating a sugary, salty snack at that time to see if it helps you to feel better.
"A key symptom of hypoglycemia is quite often disturbed sleep, typically occurring between 2am and 3am, when the blood sugar drops too low and the adrenal reaction to bring the blood sugar level back to normal causes the person to wake ."
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[ 01-27-2013, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: emla999/Lyme ]
Posted by poppy (Member # 5355) on :
Thanks for your reply.
When I was on IV for lyme and my symptoms were well controlled, this did not happen. Now on pills, my symptoms are less controlled and the 4 am thing has come back again. So, there is something about lyme that makes this hypoglycemia happen and wake me up. It is the heart pounding that is so unpleasant. How to start the day out wrong.
Posted by emla999/Lyme (Member # 12606) on :
Intravenous (IV) antibiotics usually contain or are mixed with either a solution of dextrose (a form of glucose/sugar) or sodium chloride or a mixture of both. So, the added dextrose and sodium that you were getting intavenously may have also possibly been helping to control your 4am thing.
Just a thought.
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Posted by Pocono Lyme (Member # 5939) on :
I mentioned this to my BHRT doc. He is aware of it and stated that it works if the adrenal insufficiency is a milder case.
I don't know if he meant milder than mine or in general.
Anyone have an idea why when I stress dose hydrocortisone, I get super tired? Doesn't make sense to me but then again...
Posted by emla999/Lyme (Member # 12606) on :
Paul Robinson says that the Circadian T3 method will NOT work for the severe forms of of adrenal insufficiency such as Addison's Disease or hypopituitarism.
But you can determine whether or not you have a severe form of adrenal insuffiency via a test such as the ACTH stimulation test and other tests.
But I would suspect that alot, if not most of people that are diagnosed as having adrenal fatigue or low cortisol levels here on Lymenet will pass the ACTH stimulation test and hypopituitarism testing. And therefore alot of people here on Lymenet that have been diagnosed as having adrenal fatigue or low cortisol would probably have a milder form of adrenal insufficiency.
It seems as though alot people that are diagnosed with adrenal fatigue and low cortisol will actually pass an ACTH stimulation test and therefore alot of people do not have a severe form of adrenal insufficiency. And their adrenal glands are actually capable of producing normal amounts of cortisol and other adrenal hormones.
Paul Robinson has also found that alot of people diagnosed with adrenal fatigue do not seem to produce enough T3 thyroid hormone in the very early moring hours to allow the adrenal glands to function properly. And after those people started to take T3 thyroid medicine (Cytomel) in the correct dosage and on the correct schedule those people's adrenal glands started to produce normal amounts of cortisol. An the adrenal fatigue symptoms and hypothyroid symptoms went away completely or improved.
And many of the people that have been diagnosed here on Lymenet with adrenal fatigue will probably have a mild form of adrenal insufficiency that could be due to insufficent levels of T3 hormone. And therefore many people with adrenal fatigue may experience benefits from doing the Circadian T3 method because their low cortisol production is due to something besides low early morning T3 thyroid levels.
And again, severe forms of adrenal insufficiency seen in conditions such as Addison's Disease can be proven via an ACTH stimulation test or auto antibody testing. And hypopituitarism can be detected via insulin tolerance test. And the circadian T3 method will not help those people.
But the Circadian T3 method does seem to help alot of people that have adrenal insufficiency due to insufficient T3 production.
And the only way to determine whether or not the circadian T3 protocol will help you is to try it.
I haven't had those other tests done. Back in 2005 I had the saliva stress test which showed low levels the two middle times of the day.
Nothing was done about it then and I was too cognitively impaired to pursue anything.
Due to using HC cream no test this time. When I did 15 mg of Armour Thyroid I went downhill. I couldn't increase it the next week.
When I did increase it, I was too weak to eat a finger food, freezing cold...I felt like I was going to slip into a coma.
I think I heard on Paul Robinson's one youtube that this could work with Armour. I'm not 100% sure though. I only listened 3 times.
Posted by emla999/Lyme (Member # 12606) on :
In Paul Robinson's book he said that he had tried taking Armour desiccated thyroid for his hypothyroidism and adrenal insufficiency/low cortisol levels but taking the Armour made his symptoms worse. Taking Synthroid (T4) made him feel worse as well.
Armour contains both T4 and T3 thyroid hormones and some people don't seem to tolerate T4 well. And taking a T4 containing thyroid medication seems to make some hypothyroid and adrenal insuffiency patients feel worse. But taking Cytomel (T3 only) can potentially make those same people feel better.
And Paul doesn't seem to be alone. From what I have read, many other people with adrenal insufficiency and hypothyroidism do not improve while taking Armour but they will improve when they take Cytomel. Especially so, if they take T3 via the Circadian method.
However, Paul has stated that some people that are doing the Circadian T3 method are using Armour and are having success.
But apparently, some people have a difficult time converting T4 into the active T3 thyroid hormone. T3 is what the body uses and needs. But if your body can't convert enough T4 into T3 then you will probably have to take something such as Cytomel. There is just no way around it.
"Symptoms like: extreme tiredness, weight gain, slow thinking, poor memory, feeling cold, poor hair condition and many other classic symptoms of low thyroid function are often still present on treatment with T4 and for some people these persist even with T4/T3 medications (Armour)."
Thank you for the links. I think I'm catching on! yay!
I watched Suzy Cohen's presentation and that really helped.
I looked at my lab request from my BHRT doc and there is no reverse T3 ordered. hmm He is very supportive and I think open to suggestions though it is early in my relationship with him.
Am I correct with this thought? Since our bodies need the T3, wouldn't it be wise to just skip the T4 or T3 T4 combination drugs and just do a T3?
I thought of the analogy of Vit D. Some docs will order Vit D2 prescription expecting our bodies to convert to D3 when we could just go right for the D3.
Would adding selenium be kind of futile to help convert the T4 or just ask the doc for Cytomel?
You've been an enormous help to me with all of this and I sincerely thank you.
I saw one of the success stories under the link you provided. Will read the rest but the first one mentioned treating herself. Is there a source for Cytomel or is it too risky?
Posted by emla999/Lyme (Member # 12606) on :
If your doctor did not order a Reverse T3 blood test then he or she may not be as familiar with the Circadian T3 method as they told you that they were.
I say that because RT3 is one of Paul Robinson's recommended lab tests that you get when you are originally assessing the status of your thyroid. Some people, will convert T4 into RT3 instead of T3. But if you only take Cytomel (T3) this won't be a problem.
And yes, T3 is the active form of thyroid hormone and it is what your body must have. But it is more complicated to take just Cytomel (T3) than it is to taking T4 or a thyroid medicine that contains both T4 and T3 such as Armour.
If your body can convert T4 into to T3 effectively then your body will convert the correct amount of T4 into T3 and since T4 has a very long "half-life" within in the body you will usually only have to take T4 only once per day. Where as T3 only last for a few hours within the body and therefore you will have to take Cytomel (T3) multiple times per day everyday.
So, you only have to take T4 once per day but you will have to take T3 several times per day and probably during the very early morning hours.
And it is also easier to take too much Cytomel (T3) than it is T4 because if your body is converting T4 to T3 properly your body will convert the correct amount of T4 into to T3. But with Cytomel (T3) you will have to do a bit of trial and error to see what the required amount of T3 is for your body. So, there is less of a chance that you will "overdose" or experience symptoms of hyperthyroidism from taking T4 than it would be if you were taking T3.
So, if you start taking Cytomel (T3) you must start out with a very low dosage and gradually increase your dosage over many months. And it seems as though most people tolerate Cytomel (T3) very well as long as they start out on a low dose and then gradually increase their Cytomel (T3) dose and dosage frequency over many months.
But since T3 has a very short half life within your body even if you do take to much your hyperthyroid symptoms should go away within a few hours.
In his book, Paul Robinson, describes how to correctly take Cytomel (T3) in great detail.
***And thyroid blood tests may no longer be useful when you take T3 only because if you take T3 only then your TSH will probably drop to near zero or be very low and your T4 will drop to near zero or be very low and your T3 level will probably be slightly high and therefore your doctor will incorrectly think that you are hyperthyroid while on T3 but you won't be.
So, it is more complicated to take T3 than it is T4. But for some people with hypothyroidism and adrenal insufficiency they may have to take Cytomel (T3) via the circadian T3 method if they ever want to feel well again.
And yes, some people that are doing the circadian T3 method are having to self treat themselves because they can't find a doctor that is willing to prescribe them Cytomel in the correct way or dosage that they may need to do the circadian T3 method. ****Paul Robinson's method can require that you take T3 multiple times throughout the day. The actual T3 dosage and the T3 dosage frequency will depend upon the individual.
And therefore some people are having to buy their Cytomel from a foreign pharmacy such as
I have heard from several people on different thyroid groups/forums that they have bought Cytomel without a doctor's prescription through that mexican pharmacy. And that pharmacy appears to be legit and not a scam. But it can take anywhere from a couple of weeks to a month or more to recieve your order from them.
But there are probably other foreign labs that you could also order Cytomel from without a prescription. But you should ask around first to see if anybody has had any experience with that pharmacy first.
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Posted by Pocono Lyme (Member # 5939) on :
I just looked at my initial blood work and there was no Reverse T3. I'm thinking of being brave and send him your link to Suzy's presentation.
I'm due for blood work in about 3 weeks. Maybe he will order the Reverse T3. If not, but I think he would, I will ask my PCP.
My PCP doesn't believe in the hypothyroid diagnosis but I think I can twist his arm.
I did take the Armour T at 2:30 am today and will continue. It's worth a shot in the meantime. I'm always awake in the middle of the night anyways.
My husband is out now for groceries and will be picking up Selenium for me so I'll add that also.
One of your links said that Selenium is even more crucial with a compromised immune system which I also have.
If none of the above comes through, I'll be another one self medicating.
Thank you so much for your help. And your patience with me and my heavy brain fog. You are very good at explaing things without me feeling overwhelmed. Posted by emla999/Lyme (Member # 12606) on :
Yes, Suzy Cohen did a good job of describing the relationship between TSH, T4, T3 and Reverse T3 (RT3).
Having a full thyroid panel that includes the measurement of RT3, Free T3, Free T4, TT4, TT3, TSH and thyroid antibodies can be very helpful in alot of cases. But having normal blood levels of all of those hormones and antibodies does not 100% rule out that you are not hypothyroid and would not benefit from taking something like Cytomel(T3).
And if your blood levels of Free T3 are consistently low then you are most definetly hypothyroid.
But even if your Free T3, Free T4, TSH and RT3 are "normal" that still does not indicate how much Free T3 your body requires for cell regulation. Some people seem to require more T3 than others. And the required blood levels of T3 seem to vary from person to person. So, there isn't exactly a "normal" level of Free T3 that is the same for everybody.
In Paul Robinson's book he said that his blood Free T3 levels were elevated above what is considered normal so most doctors would say that he is hyperthyroid but Paul has to maintain that "above normal" Free T3 blood level to prevent his hypothyroid symptoms from occuring.
So, Paul and many others have found out that their "normal" Free T3 blood level is higher than what most lab tests would consider to be normal.
So, all of your thyroid blood tests could possibly look "normal" but your may still not be getting enough T3 for proper cell regulation and therefore you could still have hypothyroidism even though your thyroid blood tests look perfectly normal.
So, there is no blood test that can with a 100% accuracy determine whether or not you are hypothroid or indicate whether or not you would benefit from taking Cytomel (T3).
So, a trial of Cytomel (T3) using the circadian T3 method may be the only way that some people can determine if they are actually hypothyroid.
And some people such as Dr. Broda Barnes consider going by your symptoms to be better a way to determine whether you are hypothyroid or not.
Do you frequently have cold hands and feet? Do you have a low basal body temperature? Do you have weight problems? Do you have chronic fatigue? Do you have brain fog? Do you have joint and muscle pain? Do you have daily headaches and etc.?
Those are all symptoms that can be caused by hypothyroidism...... particularly a consistently low body temperature and chronic fatigue.
A taking selenium may help with the conversion of T4 to T3 but if your body just already has a very difficult time converting T4 into T3 then taking selenium will probably not help you all that much. And your only other option to get adequate T3 may be having to take Cytomel (T3) or something similar to it.
Some more about the unreliabilty of blood thyroid hormone testing.
"There is no test for the actual level of cell regulation by thyroid hormone, relative to a healthy rate for us as individuals. Putting this more simply, there is no blood test that can indicate how well our bodies are actually responding to thyroid hormone. Let no one ever tell you otherwise."
"Simply looking at a blood artifact like FT3 or RT3 will not reveal a problem for some people. Since we have no useful laboratory tests to measure the actual level of regulation of cell function by thyroid hormone, then we can't know for sure what is really occurring within the tissues of the body"
"This research suggest that the current thyroid hormone blood tests of TSH, FT4 and FT3 fail to reflect actual levels of T3 in the body and that patients can continue to experience hypothyroidism even when thyroid hormone blood tests are normal. "
Also, your thyroid hormone levels can fluctuate every 30 minutes throughout the day and thus that can make diagnosing hypothyroidism with blood tests more difficult in some cases. One minute your blood thyroid hormone levels could look normal and thirty minutes latter your thyroid hormones can be low.
So, if you already have hypothyroidism your blood Free T3 thyroid level could possibly be in the low end of the normal range one hour and then a few hours later your blood Free T3 thyroid level could be extremely low. So, you may feel better or worse at certain times of the day depending upon what your blood Free T3 level is at that particular time of the day.
Or if you are a perfectly health person your blood Free T3 thyroid level could be in the high end of the normal range one hour and then a few hours later your blood Free T3 thyroid level could be in the low end of the normal range but still within the normal range and therefore a perfectly healthy person would probably still feel fine all day long because their body is getting enough Free T3 all day long.
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