ARTEMISININ QUESTION: I have begun Dr. Zhang's Artemisiae capsules 3x per day as instructed by my LLMD. I try not to look at side effect profiles prior to starting a med, but I am on day 5 and every night since starting have had trouble falling asleep and nightmares, which I never have. I looked up side effects and they were on top of the list. Just wondering if others experience this and will it subside? I experience a high level of suffering 24/7, so sleep is my only solace. I know this is an important part of the babesia protocol.
Posted by TJ_Fitz (Member # 34396) on :
"[SB] no longer recommends artemisinin or artemisia for babesia infections. It can work, but whatever you are treating, Sida acuta will work better, especially for babesia or bartonella." Sida acuta may not have the same side effects, either, but it seems harder to find. The same site recommends http://www.woodlandessence.com/herbal.htm as a source.
Posted by lymelisa (Member # 39743) on :
Thx Hmmm interesting. My LLMD is leader in field. Would think he would kmow if artem doesn't work. Anyone else aware of the above ?
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- First, read the detail about Porphyria. It may be that you should not be taking this, as it can be very rough on the Cytochrome P-450 liver detox pathway.
Usually, with the other ingredients in the overall protocol, this base is "covered" but be sure you other support is on board.
Otherwise,
I would back way down on the dose.
Always start with just ONE A DAY for any new supplement. Maybe even half. (Or just one drop for liquids). For anything new.
Take your time working up to the suggested dose. It could take a weeks.
Also be sure that, when taking artemisinin, that you have adequate calorie intact and a balanced blood glucose supply. As it requires the liver detox pathway, Cytochrome P-450, it can stress that pathway and result in elevated porphyrins, causing all kind of symptoms.
Be sure you are not "fasting" when taking artemisinin - just have a good supply of healthful food in your body, especially good carbohydrates as that can help keep the porphyrin level safer. See the "Secondary porphyria" link below.
Also, as TJ_Fitz points out, there are other ways to address Babesia.
I had a hard time with Artemesinin. Cryptolepis was fabulous for me, however. I've not trid the Sida acuta but that's also an option.
Remember, if one thing is just too hard, there are likely reasons for that. Sometimes the addition of a certain supplement or the way it's taken can help. But there are usually other ways to approach it, too.
Good luck. -
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
Search LymeNet -
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Also, to be clear, with any new item added, start VERY LOW and process slowly to work up to desired amount.
Herxheimer support also needs to be in place. With some protocols, that is built in, so to speak, especially if the particular supplement might also have liver protective properties.
LIVER & KIDNEY SUPPORT & and several HERXHEIMER support links, too. -
Posted by lymelisa (Member # 39743) on :
Thanks. But if I stopped every pill that made me sicker I would never get well. I thought that the nature of all this is feeling worse first within reason of course
Posted by lymelisa (Member # 39743) on :
Oops sorry that posted so many times. It told me it wasn't posting. I guess it did. And I did start on just one pill.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Then, be sure to read the Porphryia detail. I think that could explain a lot. You likely need more support for the C P-450 pathway.
Insomnia, followed by restless sleep or nightmares can mean liver stress - and are all symptoms of elevated porphyrins. Any substance that stress the C P-450 pathway can elevate porphyrins. Attention to that (and key support) can make a world of difference.
It can be very dangerous to push too hard if the liver is taxed, especially if porphyrins get too high. More or different support - or another approach might be required. Not everyone can "do" everything.
While a rough & tumble time just goes along with lyme & co. (even during treatment), do listen to your body if it's telling you that something is just too rough - and if it interferes with sleep, that is never a good thing. Hope you find some relief.
Duplicate posts can be deleted by clicking onto the paper & pencil icon just above your post. They to the right of the edit page that takes you is a "delete" box to check. -
[ 04-01-2013, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by lymelisa (Member # 39743) on :
Thank you
Posted by TJ_Fitz (Member # 34396) on :
Lymelisa, I guess I'm safe sharing my source. What I shared is from the Buhner protocol site: http://buhnerhealinglyme.com/the-protocols/ . He isn't an MD. He's a master herbalist, he doesn't treat individual patients, and he's made no secret of his work, so I don't suppose I'd be selling him out to mention him here!
In his book, he originally recommended artemisinin but has revised his protocol in light of newer information. He also has a place in his protocols for Alchornea cordifolia and Cryptolepis sanguinolenta.
Posted by Jessiep (Member # 35399) on :
I too am on Art. I think it can still work. It's helped me. Question, can you take art with your probiotics? And should you take on empty stomach??
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- It's not so much (or only) about whether artemisinin can work. It can. Just not for everyone, all the time. And there are other things that seem to work better for some.
Always, though with ANY babesia approach, it must be more than just one thing. "Mono" therapy has a high failure rate. Combination approaches are more successful. Such combinations can be rotated or otherwise adjusted over time.
And while support supplements are always necessary IMO, support is not just the issue here. ALL babesia treatment parts must have anti-babesia action.
It can be really hard to tell just what is the infection, the expected load of treatment (none of this is a picnic) or other factors.
I've been absolutely baffled time after time when others (lots and lots of others) do just fine with something that is just like Kryptonite to my inner SuperWoman.
I still don't really get it, or just still feel left out or a wimp. But, with liver issues, this is the advice that come around - finally - and does seem to make sense for me, and others with tolerance issues:
If the liver is not fully functioning, things often can't work the same as for others.
So much about anything we take depends upon our own individual liver and its ability to metabobize the ingredients. Just as each person has differences in appearance and skill, each liver (and set of kidneys) can also have differences that can interfere.
Some of the differences can be due to genetics while others may have to do with the total toxic load, or (seemingly) just which way the wind blows that day.
It can take some time to find what works -- and what can help the Cytochrome P-450 liver detox pathway so that we can tolerate a wider range of treatments -- OR know which to avoid.
If rough, always go for what is easiest on the body, as long as it good thought behind it and has equal chance for success.
Detail in the Porphyria thread can help guide us. In addition: