Hi, We were visiting in VA for a month and while doing my routine tick checks (I have lyme so I am diligent about checking the kids) I found a tiny tick on m 7 year old. We had been outside earlier in the day so he could have gotten it anywhere. From the beginning of the time we were outside to the time that I found the tick was at most 7 hours. The tick was attached bit not engorged at all. It was very flat, I at first thought it was a speck of dirt. I took him to the urgent care to make sure the head was out, the tick was so tiny I couldn't even see it was a tick without a magnifying glass. They determined the head was out and they put him on two days of amoxicillin (he's to young for doxy) and told me to have him tested in 25 days. I have already made the appt to have him tested next week. He has shown no signs of any symptoms. Should I push for the month course of antibiotics anyway regardless? I have read that sometimes you show no symptoms and then they show up later. Does the tick really need to be attached for a long time to transmit disease? I have a hard time believing that any other thing that bites ie a mosquito or a black fly can transmit it right away bit a tick cannot? Should I push for antibiotics anyway? I know I am scared bc of what I have been through, but I don't want to cause any kind of unnecessary harm by overtreating...yet I don't at all want to not treat if there is a chance he was exposed. As I said he's had no symptoms as of yet. I found your tick on June 28th. Thank you in advance for taking the time to read this and reply.
Posted by t9im (Member # 25489) on :
Hi Resaz:
I won't be able to give a specific answer to your question but:
Tick duration - Studies are mixed on the duration time but the IDSA uses 36 hours. In the case of our daughter we believe it was less than 24 hours but really don't know. Her tick transmitted borrelia, bartonella and babesia (it too was not engorged).
There is some evidence for both borrelia and babesis that transmission takes time but there are exceptions. One study showed the borrelia taking more than 36+ hours to penetrate the tick mid gut to escape to the glands with subsequent transmission to the host.
The 48 hours is better than nothing but our pediatric LLMD would probably due 2 months to be on the safe side. Of course he mainly only sees the complicated cases.
The 48 hours is a Gary Wormser IDSA MD (and lead Lyme committee member of the IDSA) practice study and he never followed up with the patients after 6 weeks so the findings are suspect.
I have not read any research references on Bartonella or Erlichiosis transmission but remember casual reading Erlichiosis can be transmitted in 15 minutes.
As for the testing;
It took our daughter over 2 years to be positive via culture and she never tested positive via the western blot (positive bands but not enough at the same time).
It took 4 years to test positive for Bart and one lab was positive the other negative and the next blood draw the original positive lab came back negative and the other lab positive.
Since we are now approaching 4 years and 10 months of this hellish situation I personally would try for 2 months of the medication. You don't want your child to go through what our daughter has gone through.
Sadly in the past 5 years I've helped at least 15 other family's with children with circumstances similar to my daughters.
It takes time for most of the parents to understand the controversy. They will rely on their MD who by and large is doing their best.
Of course most of the MD's follow their practice guidelines (which follow the IDSA) not realizing the original Lyme committee of the IDSA to have unanimous consent booted Sam Donata off the Lyme committee. Sam disagreed with the short course treatment.
They also follow the CDC preaching for strict adherence to the diagnosis of either having a rash or a positive elisa followed up by a positive WB.
I won't go into my rant on the two tier testing standard as regards Barbara Johnson, Alan Steere and Gary Wormser.
Good luck.
P.S. - If he comes down with any flu like symptoms don't wait as this is a tell tale sigh of the Lyme borrelia.
A High fever probably indicates Babesia.
PPS - as for the study let you MD know the study cited by the IDSA to Piesman's mouse findings (where 0 of 14 under 24 hours, 5 of 14 at 48 hours and 13 of 14 at 72 hours) he wrote "May" take 48 hours. He used "May" because he did an earlier rodent study (mice and hamsters) where 1 in 14 became infected at the 24 hour mark or a 7% chance.
Posted by resaz (Member # 31131) on :
I have been on the phone with my dr today and I feel like I will have a hard time getting antibiotics from her as he doesn't fall into "all" the criteria for treatment. He has no rash or flu like symptoms as of yet. Did your daughter have any symptoms in the first month? I'm so sorry you have gone through so much. I know my anxiety is kicked up bc of what I have been through and I don't want my child to suffer. The dr said too that bc he couldn't take doxy that it was another reason not to as it's the first line of treatment. So did your daughter have symptoms at first?
Posted by canadianmama (Member # 36298) on :
I would get your daughter treated.
Tell your doctor that she is feeling unwell. I know it's wrong to tell untruths, but there are exceptions.
If no antibiotic option consider colloidal silver.
Trust your intuition. Get her treated.
All the best to your family!
Posted by Judie (Member # 38323) on :
" Does the tick really need to be attached for a long time to transmit disease?"
Not in my experience. I've been infected and reinfected. Both times the tick was only attached a few minutes.
If the tick has just fed elsewhere, the infection could be ready to go.
I had an EM rash both times. The first time I time I was infected, I tested CDC positive.
With the reinfection, my symptoms were waaaaaaaay worse. I've done two Lyme tests this time around (one with a challenge dose). Both are CDC negative, but I definitely have Lyme and co-infections. I have several specific Lyme bands. Testing sucks.
Posted by GretaM (Member # 40917) on :
Agree with all of the above.
"Does the tick really need to be attached for a long time to transmit disease? I have a hard time believing that any other thing that bites ie a mosquito or a black fly can transmit it right away bit a tick cannot?"
That is a really really great point! I have not looked at it like that before, but what you said makes perfect sense.
The last tick that bit me was not engorged, and was barely attached. It was on my forearm so was easy to spot. Even then, with that short time, I got really sick with neuro lyme and also quite a few coinfections. It was a pacific ixodes.
Posted by canadianmama (Member # 36298) on :
Sorry just reread your post get you SON treated! : )
Posted by t9im (Member # 25489) on :
Hi Resaz:
We removed the tick but our MD would not prescribe medications as there was no rash.
3 weeks later flu like symptoms and we were told it was something going around (at the time I was not educated on Lyme). This lasted 5 or so days. Still never a rash.
Then fine for a week.
Then high fever (up to 104) for 5 days. Fever broke and seemed fine for 1 day.
Then woke up with extreme fatigue (couldn't get out of bed).
IDSA MD (CT Children Hosipital expert on Lyme and TBD) diagnosed this as a strep infection leading to the fatigue. He told us she would get better but it would take 6 months.
We didn't know better and trusted the guy. 6 months later we started seeing Dr. J.
Posted by KH111 (Member # 25829) on :
I was in the same situation as you. I had got lyme right after giving birth to our son and was always so worried about him being bit. That happened to us last summer while we were in vacation in Norway. I found a tick on his neck. It was not attached for more than 3 hours and was not engorged. We removed it and watched. He developed a small EM rash, but had no symptoms. It took us 10 more days to get back home and I went to his regular doc and they gave him Amox and then I went to an urgent care clinic and got more Amox. I found a Dr here in Houston who tested him and gave us more abx. I did this while trying to find a real LLMD, we got lucky and were able to find a cancellation appt with Dr H. This was with the help of TF here on this board. Thank you to TF!!! He ended up having lyme and bartonella.
I would get Amox, as much as you can until you can find an LLMD. Get on every wait list, travel if you have to.
I wish you all the best. Your son will be fine because you know what to do.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Ticks can transmit disease within a few hours, maybe less. (But did this tick have any diseases?)
Not much point in taking two days of amoxy. No point AT ALL in getting him tested next week. Nothing will show up.
I hope you are able to get treatment if that is what you decide to do. We sure don't need another %$#$ to go through, do we?
Posted by LisaK (Member # 41384) on :
I would treat if possible
Posted by resaz (Member # 31131) on :
I'm going to call Dr F in Arizona today and see if I can get my son into see him or his partner. I feel like I have a better chance of them prescribing meds over his pediatrician who is not at all familiar with Lyme and co. They would just be going by what they read from CDC. Is is possible for him to get something and have no symptoms within the early stage time frame?