Whats the deal can adults get this because its spreading like a wildfire. Anyone getting the vaccine?
Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
No way.
Posted by bigstan (Member # 11699) on :
No way too the vaccine or no way to adults getting it?
Posted by SacredHeart (Member # 44733) on :
You can go look at studies of measles outbreaks in the past. People that were vaccinated still contracted the measles. My immune system is already going nuts, I'm not going to let anyone inject me with anything else. Just my opinion. You know what they say about those.
Posted by Maia_Azure (Member # 44330) on :
I had the vaccine as a kid, hopefully still works. The outbreak at Disney really highlights what a great asset to public health vaccination has been.
I feel bad for the parents who have been scared into not giving their children measles, pertussis or mumps vaccines.
My cousin lives in Cali and won't let unvaccinated children or adults into her home as her child is too young to be vaccinated.
I guess not vaccinating your kids is that entrenched where she lives, and it has nothing to do with immune compromised individuals. I opt out of the flu shot because of my lyme issues, but I did get a DTAP booster cause I stepped on a rusty nail.
I think a lot of those parents believe MMR causes autism, despite the doctor of that study being exposed as a total fraud.
A small percentage of Vaccinated individuals can get measles, esp if they never developed a lasting immune response. I'm not sure what your point is, sacred.
Posted by poppy (Member # 5355) on :
I have the impression that people with lyme have wonky immune systems and vaccinations may not take.
Posted by susank (Member # 22150) on :
I am glad my Gamunex has - supposedly!!!! - measles antibodies in it.
Are there different strains of measles?
(Gamunex = IVIG/SCIG)
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
I'm lucky! I'm so old that I am a measles survivor!!
Posted by Looking (Member # 13600) on :
When you give consent to a vaccine, you are implying that you have done your homework and are aware of the manufacturers cautions.
The medical profession thus has no responsibility for any adverse reactions. If you have a serious reaction you must take it to the vaccine court.
According to the CDC, vaccines are usually safe and that is what you will hear on the news. But they need to go further and tell the whole story like they have to on the CDC site.
This is all from the CDC's own website:
This is the list of all ingredients in the various vaccines that you would want to check to make sure you or your children are not allergic to the ingredients.
To help prevent vaccine injuries and deaths, it is important to identify vaccine reaction symptoms because re-vaccination could result in a more severe reaction.
High fever (over 103F°) Skin (hives, rashes, swelling) High pitched screaming Collapse/shock (unresponsiveness) Excessive sleepiness Convulsions (seizures) Loss of muscle control Paralysis Joint pain Brain inflammation (encephalitis) Encephalopathy (brain damage) Physical, mental regression Sudden death
The 1986 National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act established a federal vaccine injury compensation program. Claims must be filed within two years of a death and three years of an injury following vaccination.
After doing due diligence, one can now give informed consent.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
A comforting thought:
Most Lyme patients do NOT succumb to contagious bugs.
Posted by Overwhelmed (Member # 38499) on :
To Lymetoo:
Can u explain further.??
Posted by gigimac (Member # 33353) on :
Lymetoo, are u saying lyme patients don't usually catch contagious bugs or don't usually die from them?
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Maia,
You write: " . . . think a lot of those parents believe MMR causes autism, despite the doctor of that study being exposed as a total fraud. . . . " (end quote)
Actually, that is not true at all. Well, some "experts" said they were discounting, discrediting the work and in headlines they did -- but NOT with merit. They were wrong to discount so much good information on that topic and used any little bit of fluff to cover up the truth.
The most impressive connections by those pointing out vaccine additive dangers were simply not allowed . . . they were blocked because our society just could not handle the truth & our corporations would not allow it.
It only got a brief bit of daylight.
The "final word" that won had nothing to do with science or what really happened to thousands of children who did suffer from the additives in vaccines. The real fraud is the cover up as to the ingredients in the vaccines.
It may be hard to find now but be sure to find the absolutely excellent work that Ted Kennedy, Jr. did on this. Sadly his work alongside top researchers has all but been deleted from the web.
It was excellent work and the pharmaceutical companies just pounding him and the media, being puppets of the pharmaceutical industry, just followed suit.
And no one ever really listened in that the idea of vaccines, if they could be solo agents - for a select few devastating diseases - can be important but the additives are where the danger lies.
By the way, many of those who developed measles after Disneyland did have measles vaccines. The media does not bother to report that. -
[ 01-31-2015, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
If Your Doctor Insists That Vaccines Are Safe, Then Have Them Sign This Form
[Scroll Half-way down for additives] -
Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
quote:Originally posted by bigstan: No way too the vaccine or no way to adults getting it?
To the vaccine
Posted by SacredHeart (Member # 44733) on :
Winning
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Keebler: -
By the way, many of those who developed measles after Disneyland did have measles vaccines. The media does not bother to report that. -
Wow! It's disgusting that fact is being hidden.
Posted by SacredHeart (Member # 44733) on :
For those parents that would like clean vaccines, you can use this company: http://soundchoice.org Posted by MannaMe (Member # 33330) on :
When I was in 4th grade there was a measles outbreak at school. A lot of my classmates got the measles. I had them too and several of my younger siblings.
We all came through with no adverse effects. I don't recall any fuss and worry about 'surviving' the measles.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- I am ashamed of the media for not doing their jobs here of really exploring this. They have jumped on the bully & fear brigade. -
Posted by Abxnomore (Member # 18936) on :
So what else is new? Is there any subject that they don't do that with? Maybe just one--Chronic Lyme.
Posted by SacredHeart (Member # 44733) on :
LOL for sure Abxnomore. =) There have been zero deaths from the measles n the U.S. in the last ten years, but there have been one hundred and eight deaths from the measles vaccine.
If they do get serious about Lyme, and develop a vaccine, I'll be last in line. lol I'll let other folks take the plunge first. =)
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by gigimac: Lymetoo, are u saying lyme patients don't usually catch contagious bugs or don't usually die from them?
-
HAHAHA... made me chuckle! Succumb can mean "give in to" so .. I just meant that most Lyme patients do not get the viruses or other contagious things going around, whatever it may be.
Our immune systems are wired differently.
I didn't mean that we would or would not be more likely to "die" from such bugs.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by SacredHeart:
There have been zero deaths from the measles n the U.S. in the last ten years, but there have been one hundred and eight deaths from the measles vaccine.
- Too bad they haven't learned how to make vaccines that aren't lethal.
Posted by joshzz (Member # 23526) on :
The media is hyping the measles outbreak on behalf of the vaccine makers in conjunction with our government.
The media under our government's guidance in cooperation with the vaccine makers are all attempting to make the public angry at those who decline vaccines for the purpose of creating peer pressure so that everyone will get all vaccines.
It's the kind of foul propaganda, Hitttler used to make people hate my fellow Jewish brothers and sisters.
As someone said the vaccine is far more dangerous than the disease itself.
Posted by Maia_Azure (Member # 44330) on :
quote:As someone said the vaccine is far more dangerous than the disease itself. [/QB]
That is 100% ridiculous. Far more humans have died from the diseases than have ever died from the vaccines. Obviously every vaccine has risks and injuries have occurred, but far less than disease itself. The data shows this.
For every 1,000 children who get measles, one to three of them die despite treatment and you can suffer permanent brain damage.
Rubella can cause miscarriage or the baby can be born with severe heart disorders, blindness, and deafness.
Smallpox was often a fatal infectious disease. Polio is also a crippling and potentially fatal infectious disease
Whopping cough can cause death in those under 6 months of age. Diphtheria caused death in children frequently, and the toxin permanently damaged organs in the body (heart, muscle, kidneys, and liver)
I am moving towards the idea that children should not be allowed into public school or certain public facilities without receiving a measles, mumps, rubella, diphtheria, or pertussis vaccine.
The only exceptions should be immune-compromised individuals. If you are that adamant, then home school your children and reduce the threat they cause to public health.
Take measles, the rate of infection in the US tripled in past years. Its always traced back to someone who had not been vaccinated traveling overseas then spreading it back at home due to low vaccination rates in their communities.
It's mind boggling. But perhaps, young children need to start dying again from preventable diseases for us to understand the tremendous benefits of vaccination, benefits that far outweigh the costs.
[ 02-01-2015, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: Maia_Azure ]
Posted by Maia_Azure (Member # 44330) on :
quote:Originally posted by Keebler: - You write: " . . . think a lot of those parents believe MMR causes autism, despite the doctor of that study being exposed as a total fraud. . . . " (end quote)
Actually, that is not true at all. Well, some "experts" said they were discounting, discrediting the work and in headlines they did -- but NOT with merit. They were wrong to discount so much good information on that topic and used any little bit of fluff to cover up the truth.
Dr Wakefield was found to be a fraud, there is no "covering up the truth" going on. No one could reproduce his work (only 12 'subjects', BTW), and he was found to be paid for and stood to make money on an alternative to the MMR vaccine. The real conspiracy in this case is, when you dig a bit deeper into who he was, and fine out how unethical he was. Since thimersol has been out of MMR for 15 years, and autism rates have gone up and not down, it shouldn't be so hard to see that the autism link has no merit (along with numerous studies).
quote:The most impressive connections by those pointing out vaccine additive dangers were simply not allowed . . . they were blocked because our society just could not handle the truth & our corporations would not allow it.
I am not personally concerned about *most* vaccine additives. But I agree that we should be studying them more. Making vaccines safer should be important.
I'm more worried about my mercury exposure from seafood. Formaldehyde naturally occurs in our own bodies as a part of our normal metabolism and you receive far more exposure environmentally.
If you are worried about alum (Ive seen speculation of it linked to MS), I think it's only in DTP vaccine and Hep A and B. So for me, vaccine additives are more of a case by case basis.
quote:It may be hard to find now but be sure to find the absolutely excellent work that Ted Kennedy, Jr. did on this. Sadly his work alongside top researchers has all but been deleted from the web.
You can find Kennedy's work online. He accuses scientists of fraud over thimersol, yet that link has been discounted so many times, the dead horse simply cannot be beaten anymore. I expected better from him, as I loved his work with the NRDC. He has done a lot of harm to the autism community (I am a part of it as autism has stuck my family).
quote:By the way, many of those who developed measles after Disneyland did have measles vaccines. The media does not bother to report that.
That's easy to explain though. Vaccines aren't 100% effective for each person since we all have unique immune systems. Two doses of MMR are 97 percent effective against infection, so yes, a vaccinated person could be at risk if they are the unlucky 3%.
That's the point though, if vaccination levels remain upwards of 90%, then the small minority who did not mount a sufficient immune response or those who can't be vaccinated for health reasons, are protected. Measles was eradicated from the US in 2000, but we are still at risk from international travelers.
[ 02-15-2015, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: Maia_Azure ]
Posted by Maia_Azure (Member # 44330) on :
quote:Originally posted by SacredHeart: LOL for sure Abxnomore. =) There have been zero deaths from the measles n the U.S. in the last ten years, but there have been one hundred and eight deaths from the measles vaccine.
If you search the WHO data, In 2013, there were 145 700 measles deaths globally. Which is probably why woman in developing countries walk miles and line up to receive vaccines. They still see death. I think the plan is eradication by 2020.
In the US, measles deaths declined probably due to improvements in health care and nutrition. But I think there were still ~450 measles-related deaths yearly before vaccination. The bigger concern was serious complications that were frequent and costly, making vaccination worthwhile. I know a woman who is deaf from measles. There were a lot of hospitalizations due to pneumonia from the measles.
VAERS data reports death after vaccines, regardless if the vaccine was determined to cause the death. It's a passive surveillance system. So you need to look specifically if the 108 deaths were linked conclusively to the vaccine. A lot of people don't understand this. You also would have to compare X amount of confirmed/suspected deaths to X amount of total vaccinated, which is beyond the scope of the data.
It's pretty interesting, and you can see clearly where they state cause of death and whether or not they think it was related to the vaccine. Oftentimes it has no relation. I think encephalitis is the main cause of relation. Some patients had epilepsy or diabetes and a lot going on as well.
Posted by gz (Member # 43818) on :
I really don't want to add fuel one way or another to the vaccine debate, but I think about how widespread lyme and other stealth infections are and the fact that most people are unaware they and especially their little ones are infected. How many of these are our vaccine injuries?
I am awash with relief that we didn't suffer with any obvious detrimental vaccine reactions due to vaxing with a lyme compromised immune system. Knowing what I know now, we're all probably done with getting vaccinations of any sort.
Posted by LisaK (Member # 41384) on :
my son got rotovisrus vacine and it screwed up his GI track.
my daughter got MMR vaccine around 1.5 yrs old or whatever age that is, and stopped talking and now has dyselxia and other LDs.
my son had chicken pox vacine and got chicken pox later WITH shingles at same time. ER dr confirmed it was from the vaccine.
....
i did not vaccine all my kids on schedule. there is no need to give a new born baby all that poison in its first year of life!!!
and I know people that went through measels too. gave them better immune system afterward., not saying lyme peopl should vaccinate! just saying that everyone is differrnt. but I would be picky.
polio for example, I htink we all need. and maybe tetinus, depending on your lifestyle, but other than that, most are not needed. it is all hype.
Posted by LisaK (Member # 41384) on :
and if kids have underlying conditions - like undiagnosed lyme- they will be worse off form that vaccine anyway!
maybe that is why my kids has such reactions. who knows.
you might as well play russian roulette. to me it's the same.
Posted by rowingmom (Member # 41213) on :
quote:Originally posted by Maia_Azure:
I am moving towards the idea that children should not be allowed into public school or certain public facilities without receiving a measles, mumps, rubella, diphtheria, or pertussis vaccine.
[/QB]
If you choose to vaccinate your children that is your choice. They should not be in danger of contracting the infections, so why would you require mine to be vaccinated as well? Doesn't the vaccine produce proper immunity and thus safeguard your children?
Our daughter was damaged by the MMR at 15 months. Within 24 hrs she developed a high fever and then gradually lost much of the speech and gross motor development she had gained up to that point. It took 5 years of speech therapy/OT to bring her back. The doctor said it was a coincidence. I think not.
She was diagnosed at age 10 with congenital lyme/bart. How was I to know her immune system was compromised when I allowed the vaccination? I had no way of knowing.
[ 02-02-2015, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: rowingmom ]
Posted by LisaK (Member # 41384) on :
drs know. they are just hiding it. either tucked under theier brains or right up front, but they know.
I had 3 kids all go through all kinds of testing for LDs for years. all the drs of psychology will ask you- and neuro psychs doing exams, they all asked if I ever saw changes after a vaccine.
and it is a fact that at least 15-20 yrs ago there was a huge study done in another country that showed a certain percent of kids with autism had live measels living in their GI system. once they were treated they started to show improvement.
US didnt' give credit for the study though because for some dub reason or another, I cannot remember what. but it was B.S.
Posted by rowingmom (Member # 41213) on :
quote:Originally posted by Maia_Azure: It's pretty interesting, and you can see clearly where they state cause of death and whether or not they think it was related to the vaccine. Oftentimes it has no relation. I think encephalitis is the main cause of relation. Some patients had epilepsy or diabetes and a lot going on as well. [/QB]
Encephalitis - like the lyme/bartonella/babesia- induced encephalitis that my daughter suffered from since the day she was born. Light sensitivity, sound sensitivity, touch sensitivities. Later this included headaches and neck stiffness. Congenital infections. The mainstream doesn't even believe they exist.
Diabetes = autoimmunity in young children. Just like JA.
Lyme/co = autoimmunity, and immune dysfunction.
Posted by Looking (Member # 13600) on :
Dr. Wakefield and his co-author Dr. Walker-Smith have NOT been proven frauds. In fact, the British appeal court threw out all charges in this case.
Mr Justice Mitting called for changes in the way General Medical Council fitness to practise panel hearings are conducted in the future saying: "It would be a misfortune if this were to happen again."
Justice John Mitting ruled on the appeal by Walker-Smith, saying that the GMC "panel"s determination cannot stand. I therefore quash it."
He said that its conclusions were based on "inadequate and superficial reasoning and, in a number of instances, a wrong conclusion."
The verdict restores Walker-Smith's name to the medical register and his reputation to the medical community.
This conclusion is not surprising, as the GMC trial had no actual complainants, no harm came to the children who were studied, and parents supported Walker-Smith and Wakefield through the trial, reporting that their children had medically benefited from the treatment they received at the Royal Free Hospital. -----------------------------------
However, the reporter, Brian Deer who is connected to GlaxoSmithKline spends all his time trying to perpetuate this misinformation.
Dr Wakefield recently stated:
“Now this question has been answered not by me, but by the courts, by the vaccine courts in Italy and in the United States of America where it appears that many children over the last thirty years have been awarded millions of dollars for the fact that they have been brain-damaged by MMR vaccine and other vaccines and that brain damage has led to autism. That is a fact.” --------------
And by the way, I don't believe that the pharma companies would pay vaccine damage money if they had the proof that their product was not responsible for damaging people.
Dr. Stephen J. Walker has published a new article,
Identification of unique gene expression in children with regressive autism spectrum disorder (ASD) and ileocolitis.
Dr. Wakefield's enemies love to say his research could not be replicated; well it has, several times now. Here's just the latest.
Here's the complete citation Citation: Walker SJ, Fortunato J, Gonzalez LG, Krigsman A (2013) Identification of Unique Gene Expression Profile in Children with Regressive Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) and Ileocolitis. PLoS ONE 8(3): e58058. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0058058 ------------------------
Regardless of this issue, Pharmaceutical companies will always try to downplay the damage they have done and they do employ people to push their denials -- the best defense is offense!
-----------------
"Finnish scientists ID link between GSK's swine flu vaccine and narcolepsy"
December 17, 2014 | By Amirah Al Idrus
Of the more than 30 million people in almost 50 countries who have received GlaxoSmithKline's Pandemrix, close to 800 have developed narcolepsy. And now, for the first time, a team from Finland thinks it knows why.
Comparing Pandemrix with Arepanrix, a vaccine used in Canada with the same adjuvant, the researchers found that Pandemrix had more of one structurally altered viral nucleoprotein--a disparity lead researcher Outi Vaarala attributed to the way the vaccines were prepared. --------------
Vaccines can have side effects but pharma wants to push the herd mentality that we all must jump on the vaccine bandwagon.
Always do your own credible research and realize there is an agenda here. Make your own informed decisions because you have to live with the results.
Posted by bigstan (Member # 11699) on :
All I know is today there saying the measles vaccine I got as a kid is no longer going to protect me.
Posted by beaches (Member # 38251) on :
Stan, obviously your immunity has worn off, like so many others who have gotten the vaccine.
To the moms who are posting here: Don't waste your breath. I had a back and forth dialogue re vaccines with this Maia person which has since apparently been deleted. I really wonder why some people are here. #agendas
Posted by Looking (Member # 13600) on :
Measles shots actually have a higher failure rate than you would expect, so no guarantee you will be protected.
And the flu shot often fails too when it is not a good match for the present year's flu.
This year's flu shot has been woefully ineffective, so why bother: ------------------
Flu vaccine offered Canadians little or no protection from virus this year: study
"Lead author Dr. Danuta Skowronski says the problem this year is that nearly all flu infections so far in Canada have been caused by H3N2 flu viruses, and virtually all the viruses spotted in Canada are different from the one in the vaccine.
In the United States, H3N2 is also the main strain causing illness, but about one-third of the viruses there were a match for the H3N2 component of the vaccine.
The Canadian study suggests that people who didn’t get a flu shot last year got more protection from this year’s vaccine than those who were vaccinated both years running.
The study is in Eurosurveillance, an online journal published by the European Centre for Disease Control."
This is from the US CDC site as to the effectiveness of the flu shot:
How well the flu vaccine works (or its ability to prevent flu illness) can range widely from season to season. The vaccine's effectiveness also can vary depending on who is being vaccinated.
At least two factors play an important role in determining the likelihood that flu vaccine will protect a person from flu illness:
1) characteristics of the person being vaccinated (such as their age and health), and
2) the similarity or "match" between the flu viruses the flu vaccine is designed to protect against and the flu viruses spreading in the community.
During years when the flu vaccine is not well matched to circulating viruses, it's possible that no benefit from flu vaccination may be observed. ----------------
So it's all a gamble or maybe "an educated guess". Meanwhile you are subjecting your body to a shot containing harmful ingredients possibly for nothing. Posted by lymenotlite (Member # 33166) on :
We all had the measles when I was a kid. No big deal. Wonder what they'll want to inject us with next. I've known too many people who got a flu vaccination and, shortly after, got the flu.
Posted by Samlyme (Member # 43732) on :
My hospital job told me I needed a measles mumps and rubella booster when I started working there.
I ended up getting ITP shortly thereafter and horrible lyme symptoms but I didn't figure out it was lyme for a long time.
ITP is just an name for an unknown cause for low chronically low platelets. They think it's autoimmune.
The MMR vaccine can cause it though. It's shown to cause itp with statistical significance in babies.
And they're the only major population treated with the MMR vaccine so I'm sure it's not just restricted to the baby population.
But it's obnoxious that they randomly made me get that stupid vaccine. I was relatively healthy at the time so I was unaware of all the potential dangers and just agreed to it.
Posted by Samlyme (Member # 43732) on :
& I know lyme and coinfections can cause low platelets too but so can that vaccine and I really didn't need to get it.
Posted by Maia_Azure (Member # 44330) on :
quote:Originally posted by rowingmom:
They should not be in danger of contracting the infections, so why would you require mine to be vaccinated as well? Doesn't the vaccine produce proper immunity and thus safeguard your children?
No, vaccines are not 100% effective. Say 1,000 people get MMR, 3% will not achieve proper immunity, so that is ~30 people. If vaccination rates dip below 90%, then you have a 13% rate not protected. Most adults do not check titers or often miss boosters, dropping the rate of protection more. Vaccination works at the group level, not always the individual level.
There ARE individuals who do have strong and permanently debilitating reactions to vaccinations (mitochondrial/metabolic). These conditions are rare. It is between you and your physician whether or not your illness falls under this category. Lyme might be one of these illnesses, but obviously we are decades behind in research.
I do not believe a healthy person should be 'forced' to get a vaccine. But I am not against vaccine requirements set up at by individual day care institutions, public or private schools, camps, etc. I could not travel to Ecuador without a yellow fever vaccine. So yes, institutions and governments CAN set up laws in regards to public health.
Parents have a right to know that their children are safe from the un-vaccinated (those without medical exemptions) just as parents have the "right" to opt out.
quote:She was diagnosed at age 10 with congenital lyme/bart. How was I to know her immune system was compromised when I allowed the vaccination? I had no way of knowing.
So, what you are saying is, you have no way of knowing the cause. It could have been coincidence, it could have been the congenital Lyme unrelated to vaccination, it could have been the antigen exposure from the vaccine, exacerbating the preexisting condition.
I don't have the answer, but what you need to watch out for is confirmation bias. Seeking out evidence to confirm the idea, often leading to rationalizations that may or may not be true. IE autism regression happens around the same developmental time as the MMR vaccine is given
As a Lyme sufferer, I am careful about exposure. I am now allergic to all furred animals, molds, pollens, etc. So I opt out of flu shots and others. But I WOULD still get MMR, Diphtheria, Tetanus, Pertussis if I needed it.
[ 02-08-2015, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: Maia_Azure ]
Posted by Maia_Azure (Member # 44330) on :
quote:Originally posted by beaches: I really wonder why some people are here. #agendas
Right beaches, because you are the only one allowed to have an opinion. Everyone who suffers from Lyme must conform to YOUR viewpoint. Way to be rude. #whatsyouragenda?
For the record, my agenda is science literacy. And creating arguments based on scientific evidence, not some mommy wellness blog pulling conspiracy theories off the world wide web.
As Lyme sufferers, most of us have had encounters with medical professionals that cause some level of mistrust for doctors and scientists. So I see the parallels to the anti-vaccination movement.
But that movement itself is anti-establishment driven. Anti vaxxers think there is a mysterious medical conspiracy to push vaccines and that they're part of the small group who really "sees" the truth.
So there is no way to have a rational discussion with people who feel that way. I don't believe for a second that my pediatrician was part of some conspiracy pushing dangerous vaccines on me for Big Pharma's bottom line.
Why? Because vaccines overwhelmingly work and absolutely reduced and eradicated many childhood diseases that caused a lot of harm. That doesn't mean there are not risks. But I don't believe doctors are nefarious and would willingly inject poisons into children. Their data shows that it's safe. Until it's proved otherwise, they will promote them.
I believe in alternative therapy wholeheartedly, but not the underlining assumption that getting sick is your fault and you can prevent it in ALL cases.
I find that many people eschew vaccines are highly educated and wealthy. They honestly don't think their children will be exposed, or if so, it will be a big deal. They may believe that their kombucha, and probiotics, colonic cleanses and weekly adjustments at the chiropractors will keep their immune systems so healthy that they will just fight off measles and whopping cough.
And it may be, that we need to see a return of these diseases before people get it. Which is unfortunate because, we COULD eradicate many more like smallpox.
That being said, I do think there are many unnecessary vaccines. I think the flu shot is B.S. and it doesn't work well. But Whopping cough? My best friend got it as an adult, broke 1 rib and has had asthma ever since. Just because a disease doesn't kill you doesn't mean it's healthy to get.
Posted by Maia_Azure (Member # 44330) on :
quote: Originally posted by Looking: Dr. Wakefield and his co-author Dr. Walker-Smith have NOT been proven frauds.
Dr. Wakefield's paper has been retracted. The court charges were not on the validity of their scientific findings, but on whether or not Walker-Smith thought he was doing research or actually treating autistic children using clinically appropriate interventions.
Justice John Mitting acknowledged that what Walker-Smith did *could* be reasonably viewed as research, but exonerated him because it could also be viewed as therapeutic.
Therefore, he is restored to the medical register, but the paper itself is still retracted. Wakefield never appealed. I wonder what his chances of appeal were considering:
*failure to disclose financial compensation from a lawyer representing families claiming MMR cause their children’s autism, *failure to disclose financial interests in patents for MMR alternatives *failure to include data which contradicted his conclusions *use of contaminated samples to support his conclusions.
Reminds me of the ISDA Lyme guidelines conflicts.
Even if we ignore all of that, a big part of science is replicating data. His data was never replicated. But there have been case controlled studies on the lack of association between measles-mumps-rubella vaccination and autism in children.
quote: However, the reporter, Brian Deer who is connected to GlaxoSmithKline
In what way? He was also involved in the withdrawal of the painkiller Vioxx, and the removal of Bactrim/septrim from the UK market (brand name Septra under GlaxoSmithKline). I'd hardly call him a big pharma hack.
quote:I don't believe that the pharma companies would pay vaccine damage money if they had the proof that their product was not responsible for damaging people.
Well obviously not, given that no two immune systems are the same. Seat belts and airbags can cause chest and abdominal injuries. Like vaccines, most injuries are minor, but in certain circumstances severe and fatal injuries have resulted. Overall they have significantly reduce mortality in car accidents. Same with vaccines.
quote: Dr. Wakefield's enemies love to say his research could not be replicated; well it has, several times now. Here's just the latest.
Dr. Wakefiled has several papers that are peer-reviewed and still valid. I am not sure what the paper you posted has to do with vaccines or MMR. Autistic children do have GI issues and Wakefield did study that. The other research you posted on flu shots and narcolepsy, has nothing to do with MMR and autism either (which is the whole reason people are not vaccinating, flu shots are entirely different subject).
quote:Regardless of this issue, Pharmaceutical companies will always try to downplay the damage they have done
You'd have to specific on "damage." Which vaccine, which injury, etc.
If over 1,000 people died from polio before vaccination and 25-30% got post polio syndrome, then to zero deaths after, then as long as the injury from the vaccine was low, then its still positive.
I think everyone can agree vaccines have risks. Some more than others. If the risk outweighs the benefit, they should be pulled. I do agree that big pharma will be reluctant to do so. But I haven't seen evidence the MMR or Tdap are particularly dangerous.
I would be interested in data on that, definitely.
Posted by rowingmom (Member # 41213) on :
Confirmation bias works in both directions.
I have experienced the negative impacts of vaccination on our daughter, which our doctor put down to "coincidence". Running a high fever within 24 hours and significant loss of function immediately thereafter and continuing for months was not coincidence.
I continued vaccinating on schedule, and she is now fully vaccinated for everything except HPV. I am not an "anti-vaxxer", but am starting to realize that there are significant implications to the now over-blown vaccine schedule that are not being considered by most physicians.
Infection with wild-type measles produces long-term immunity to the infection. Vaccination produces only short term, which is why boosters are needed. If the last booster is given at 8 years of age, how many antibodies will be left by the time the female gives birth to offspring. None. The baby is left defenceless. Adults, in which infection is more problematic, are left defenceless as well.
If the infections are allowed to circulate naturally, there will be periodic re-exposure which boosts circulating immunity in the adult population. This helps decrease re-emergence as shingles, the incidence of which is increasing as well.
Present day science/medicine likes to believe that it is all knowing. But is it really? At every point in history, the prevailing beliefs have been held as "truths", but during the evolution of understanding have been proven incorrect or incomplete. Gaining knowledge is an evolution of theory. It is not an absolute "right" or "wrong" at any one point in time.
Truth is only a widely held set of beliefs. At one point "the world is flat" was a truth, "illness is caused by evil spirits" was a truth. Naysayers were ridiculed and persecuted.
If you believe science has reached a pinnacle of understanding that is your belief only. "Science is a process of inquiry that constantly questions itself, refines itself, and reaches new understanding. Science is never fixed and unilateral. Something unquestionable and that cannot be challenged is called dogma, not "science."
Open your mind just a little. Chronic lyme and vaccine damage are not widely accepted. This doesn't mean they don't exist, only that they are not recognized by mainstream medicine or reported by the media. People will not consider the possibility of an alternative paradigm until they are forced to, by way of infection or adverse reaction. You, at least recognize lyme.
Although they like to contend that research is unbiased, it seems unlikely that the pharmaceutical companies will support studies that prove vaccination to be ineffective or even harmful. There is no incentive to generate studies that produce no funding, so if you require solid research to back up an alternative paradigm, you won't likely find it.
[ 02-08-2015, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: rowingmom ]
Posted by Maia_Azure (Member # 44330) on :
quote:Originally posted by rowingmom: there are significant implications to the now over-blown vaccine schedule that are not being considered by most physicians.
That is exactly why VAERS reporting happens, its passive so any negative reaction to vaccination is reported, even if the doctor thinks it's coincidence or determined non-related. And they do continuously study this data.
I'm not opposed to the idea that our vaccine schedule is a bit intense. But a lot of these vaccines are well studied, in animals and in case controlled studies. It's possible some of the right questions haven't been asked yet, but it would be a very low percentage of the population that would be a concern. With proper vaccination, you can eradicate the disease and remove the vaccine from the schedule (like polio and smallpox).
quote:Infection with wild-type measles produces long-term immunity to the infection. Vaccination produces only short term, which is why boosters are needed.
I'd rather get a booster later in life, then get the measles. My great aunt is deaf from the measles. My mother got it and her mother made her sit in a dark room for days so she "wouldn't go blind." Measles isn't the common cold. It has serious complications even in the developed world. Certain vaccinations do produce lifelong immunity, Rubella is one of those.
Also, there is no such thing as 'natural immunity." Its called, getting the disease.
quote:The baby is left defenseless. Adults, in which infection is more problematic, are left defenseless as well.
Which is a moot point if we have eradicated the disease. The baby is only defenseless if people allow the measles to come back into the country. Adults are only defenseless if vaccination levels drop below 90%.
What you are saying is, a child should get measles, so 30 years down the road, their child could receive temporary maternal antibodies and cross fingers that they don't get exposed till they are a bit older and risk complications? Really??
quote:If the infections are allowed to circulate naturally, there will be periodic re-exposure which boosts circulating immunity in the adult population.
Why would we want polio, smallpox, measles, mumps and whopping cough to circulate naturally? Is this the plan? UGH. SERIOUSLY???I can't think of a reason why ANYONE would want this. The WHO has a goal of eradicating measles by 2020. Polio is almost gone, only in Afghanistan, Nigeria, and Pakistan and the horn of Africa.
quote:This helps decrease re-emergence as shingles, the incidence of which is increasing as well.
I got shingles BECAUSE I had chicken pox. Not because of a vaccine wearing off (didn't exist when i was kid). The vaccine is preferable to me than the nerve pain I received from shingles. Immunity to chicken pox lasts at least 20 years and is expected to be lifelong at this point, so it's up to a parent if they want their child exposed or not, but booster shots would be likely unnecessary.Which is why that fear is not rational.
quote: Open your mind just a little. Chronic lyme and vaccine damage are not widely accepted.
So, are you inferring that the MMR vaccine cases damage? The only reason people think that is Dr Wakefield fraudulent study (and they reinforce that belief by believing he is 'persecuted.").
I believe vaccines come with risks. Just in the same way that wearing a seat belt or driving a car with an airbag does. 99% of the time, it saves your life. I am supportive of eradicating debilitating childhood illness that has the potential to cause death or complications.
[ 02-08-2015, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: Maia_Azure ]
Posted by Maia_Azure (Member # 44330) on :
Since this post is about measles, do a lot of people here honestly believe in the Autism/MMR link?
If someone here is so supportive of Dr Wakefield, where are the peer-reviewed studies that confirms his hypothesis? Why are there so many studies that disprove the link? Why is everyone silent when they are asked to come up with evidence? Calling me a troll is a pretty lame cop-out.
Autism rates have gone up since they MMR vaccines has changed, not down. Even if vaccines caused problems in <0.1% of children, I am more concerned with toxins and chemicals.
1 in 5 children has a neurodevelopmental disability these days like speech delays, autism, ADHD. Pregnant woman and children are exposed to neurotoxants such as pesticides, PBDEs, PCBs, PFOAs, PAH, phalates, even food additives.
Instead of fingering the most obvious culprit, we are distracted by the LEAST likely culprit. I think that any vaccine 'damage' PALES in comparison to our environmental exposures. And you can test for this chemicals in our bodies and read numerous lab animal studies showing damage.
You have mothers absolutely in a conniption over 'toxins in the vaccines.' Well, take Formaldehyde, you get 10-20mg of formaldehyde from things like apples. A child likely has over 500μg of formaldehyde circulating in their blood naturally, whereas something like HepB vaccine has 7.5ug/dose and DtaP only 1007ug/dose.
There seems to be a cultural disconnect going on. Maybe its easier to blame vaccines for EVERYTHING then change our behaviors and how we treat our environment.I suggest these articles:
quote: Truth is only a widely held set of beliefs. At one point "the world is flat" was a truth, "illness is caused by evil spirits" was a truth. Naysayers were ridiculed and persecuted.
Chemicals in our vaccines, how about the great threat of chemicals in the environment? The "world is flat" was not based on science, neither was illness being caused by evil spirits. Those topics have more in common with "vaccines caused my child's autism" but I have nothing that proves this, than what you are suggesting.
Posted by TNT (Member # 42349) on :
The FACT of the matter is that these diseases were in significant decline before vaccines were introduced en mass.
Notice Andrew Weil's statement at the bottom.
The LYMErix vaccine is a good analogy of why vaccinations are developed and strongly pushed. And of what can and does happen as a result. It seems like the main push for the development and introduction of LYMErix was for profits. And, it was admittedly pulled for that reason.
I will agree that perhaps in some cases there is immunological protection from diseases (such as rabies and tetanus). The current measles outbreak would suggest otherwise since it is those who have been vaccinated that are catching it.
But the overarching motive and design for vaccines is profit. And that always trumps what should be the ultimate concern....the good & safety of patients. And, unfortunately, it tends to cover up the real inherent dangers and risks of vaccines and their ingredients.
As for environmental toxins, nobody is mandating that people have to eat chemically-laced foods. Everyone has a choice to eat organic if they so desire. And the foods and dermatological toxins encounter the immune and elimination systems before getting introduced into the blood stream.
Posted by SacredHeart (Member # 44733) on :
http://www.cogforlife.org/autism/ This is a good site that has some research on vaccines, aborted fetal cells, and autism for those interested.
There is also a link to Dr. THERESA DEISHER. She is developing clean vaccines for those parents that are interested. “Sound Choice Pharmaceutical Institute, (SCPI) is the only non-profit biomedical institute I can think of that does not use embryonic cell lines, fetal tissue, or any other illicit materials in their research,” noted Fr. Tad Pacholczyk of the National Catholic Bioethics Center.
Founded by world renowned adult stem cell scientist Dr. Theresa Deisher, the organization’s mission is “dedicated to providing scientific research, education and resources to encourage safe, moral, pro-life medicines and therapeutics”. The organization is also investigating the health consequences of aborted human DNA and cellular contaminants in medicines.
And that includes the “hot button” issue of childhood vaccines. According to their website, www.soundchoice.org, 90% of children vaccinated in the last 10 years were most likely injected with aborted fetal DNA components. More ominously, these fetal DNA contaminants could lead to serious health consequences and may be contributing to the rise in childhood leukemia, autism and other autoimmune disorders.
“SCPI has done the research to show it”, stated Dr Deisher. “We measured the level of fetal DNA in vaccines and are now researching the consequences. Even the FDA has acknowledged the dangers of having fetal DNA contaminants present in our vaccines. Just how dangerous remains to be seen, but it’s unconscionable not to do the research and find out.”
“The equipment and research material needed is very costly,” says Vinnedge. “But not nearly as costly as it would be to society and to families affected by autism if they can’t continue their research due to lack of funds”.
Judie Brown, President of American Life League, a group that exposes the morally objectionable research done by some of the nation’s largest medical research charities, agrees. “We frequently get inquiries from pro-life donors about this or that medical research organization, including some of the largest and most popular charities in the country. Donors become disillusioned as they learn that aborted fetal or embryonic cell lines are used by their favorite charity for medical research. But not anymore thanks to SCPI.”
Brown sums it up this way: “If you support Sound Choice Pharmaceutical Institute, you will be supporting a charity worthy of your donations. They are doing fantastic work.”
Posted by Maia_Azure (Member # 44330) on :
quote:Originally posted by TNT: The FACT of the matter is that these diseases were in significant decline before vaccines were introduced en mass.
There is no doubt medicine was improving. More importantly, supportive care was improving. I could spend days on the intellectual dishonesty of what you are linking in those graphs, but suffice it to say, the best way to look at it is to study disease incidence, not deaths:
The trick in the source you are using is to show abridged graphs selected to begin at one of the cyclical low points of incidence of a disease to attempt to demonstrate that the disease was on the way out before vaccination.
quote:I will agree that perhaps in some cases there is immunological protection from diseases (such as rabies and tetanus).
Is there a reason you are only including those two? Should we catch whopping cough, mumps, rubella? Are you only including death in your metrics, as in, you don't care about complications? What about vaccines for HIV/Aids, malaria, etc.
quote:The current measles outbreak would suggest otherwise since it is those who have been vaccinated that are catching it.
Have you read the news? The outbreak occurred from an unvaccinated international traveler. A woman in her 20s took two plane trips and spread it to Seattle. An unvaccinated man from Colorado picked up measles there and spread it. 3% of the vaccinated don't develop immunity, so yes, vaccinated individuals can pick it up.
Claiming it is being spread by vaccinated individuals is a straight out fabrication. What is your source on that?
quote:But the overarching motive and design for vaccines is profit.
That's a bit a a reach. Are you saying that a company that spends money on R&D to create a product, should give it away for free?
Vaccines in general have a lower net profit than other pharmaceuticals. You know whats more profitable? Letting people get sick and charging for supplies, drugs, treatments for secondary infections and hospitalizations.
quote:it tends to cover up the real inherent dangers and risks of vaccines and their ingredients.
What risks? Examples? Which specific vaccines are you referring to? What ingredients? This is a very vague statement.
quote:As for environmental toxins, nobody is mandating that people have to eat chemically-laced foods. Everyone has a choice to eat organic
WOW. Just WOW. You do know that pesticides and industrial chemicals are ubiquitous? That our furniture contains it? Our rugs? Our water?
Also, poor people barely have access to fresh vegetables, let alone organic ones. Google "food desert" to see what I mean.
quote:foods and dermatological toxins encounter the immune and elimination systems before getting introduced into the blood stream.
What on Earth are you talking about?
Posted by yanivnaced (Member # 13212) on :
All I know is that my son was doing fine before his schedule of vaccines.
The first round clearly demarcated a decline. The second round resulted in full blown JRA. Not planning to see what the next round brings.
My theory is that the vaccines do no harm in healthy kids. But they can wreak havoc on children who are immune compromised and have dormant infections systemically like my son who probably was infected in utero.
This measles fiasco is going to make it a lot harder for parents like me trying to stave off disaster. I don't give a damn about herd immunity and all that. I just care about my son.
Posted by Looking (Member # 13600) on :
Maia as you said:
"If someone here is so supportive of Dr Wakefield, where are the peer-reviewed studies that confirms his hypothesis?"
You have not defended your statement that Dr. Wakefield has been proven a Fraud as the media hype would have us all believe.
Where is that proof that you would spread a defamatory statement like that?
There is tons of opinion and innuendo but I have not seen proof.
Please provide actual data. I'm not for or against any doctor -- but I don't believe the media hysteria either.
They lose me when they say measles vaccines or any others are proven safe -- why don't they tell the truth that there is always some risk with vaccines which everyone can read if you look in the manufacturers insert in the vaccine box which the medical professionals don't even give you unless you ask.
Brian Deer is the reporter hired by Rupert Murdoch’s son James Murdoch who is on the board of GlaxoSmithKline which makes the MMR.
Both the BMJ and Lancet journals serve as advertising forums for Merck and GlaxoSmithKline. So not too hard to get a paper removed questioning vaccine schedule. Accepting ad revenue from them would amount to conflict of interest would it not?
Anyway, all of us need to do our own research and make our own decisions as to vaccines.
You might like to read the court settlement admitting mmr damage to young Ryan here:
28 studies from around the world that support Dr. Wakefield’s controversial findings:
1. The Journal of Pediatrics November 1999; 135(5):559-63
2. The Journal of Pediatrics 2000; 138(3): 366-372
3. Journal of Clinical Immunology November 2003; 23(6): 504-517
4. Journal of Neuroimmunology 2005
5. Brain, Behavior and Immunity 1993; 7: 97-103
6. Pediatric Neurology 2003; 28(4): 1-3
7. Neuropsychobiology 2005; 51:77-85
8. The Journal of Pediatrics May 2005;146(5):605-10
9. Autism Insights 2009; 1: 1-11
10. Canadian Journal of Gastroenterology February 2009; 23(2): 95-98
11. Annals of Clinical Psychiatry 2009:21(3): 148-161
12. Journal of Child Neurology June 29, 2009; 000:1-6
13. Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders March 2009;39(3):405-13
14. Medical Hypotheses August 1998;51:133-144.
15. Journal of Child Neurology July 2000; ;15(7):429-35
16. Lancet. 1972;2:883–884.
17. Journal of Autism and Childhood Schizophrenia January-March 1971;1:48-62
18. Journal of Pediatrics March 2001;138:366-372.
19. Molecular Psychiatry 2002;7:375-382.
20. American Journal of Gastroenterolgy April 2004;598-605.
21. Journal of Clinical Immunology November 2003;23:504-517.
22. Neuroimmunology April 2006;173(1-2):126-34.
23. Prog. Neuropsychopharmacol Biol. Psychiatry December 30 2006;30:1472-1477.
24. Clinical Infectious Diseases September 1 2002;35(Suppl 1):S6-S16
25. Applied and Environmental Microbiology, 2004;70(11):6459-6465
26. Journal of Medical Microbiology October 2005;54:987-991
27. Archivos venezolanos de puericultura y pediatría 2006; Vol 69 (1): 19-25.
28. Gastroenterology. 2005:128 (Suppl 2);Abstract-303
Posted by Maia_Azure (Member # 44330) on :
quote: There is also a link to Dr. THERESA DEISHER. She is developing clean vaccines for those parents that are interested. “Sound Choice Pharmaceutical Institute
It looks like Sound Choice's motivation is Pro-Life emphasis. Meaning, they are concerned about the ethical use of fetal stem cells that are left over in some viral lines. So they are motivated by other factors.
If people can produce purer vaccines that are just as effective, I think that is a win-win.
But the interesting thing about her study is that they didn’t do PCR on the DNA to prove that it was fetal DNA. So, we don't know if they are looking at fetal DNA or viral DNA.
Looking at the journal article, they did not show any gels demonstrating the claimed size of the DNA fragments either.
They used an ELISA for single and double stranded DNA. Ive run ELISA's before, its not enough to prove that they are measuring fetal DNA.
Human cells that can take up bits of DNA at very low rates do not integrate that DNA into their genome. So I am interested into how this researcher would pursue the link she is creating.
Especially since we have to assume that DNA could cross the blood-brain barrier (not proven) and get into neurons THEN actually recombine with host DNA sufficiently to cause neuroinflammation. And we haven't proved that chronic brain inflammation is even a cause of autism. This is a lot of Ifs.
The problem is they haven't demonstrated that there is a correlation..just some linear regression models. I will tip my hat off to her if she can design and implement more studies that corroborate her hypothesis.
I also wonder, if autism was on the rise before the fetal stem cells were detect in certain vaccines, then what is the relationship then?
I will definitely follow her work, but she needs to get more data that shows an actual link instead of a theoretical one.
Posted by SacredHeart (Member # 44733) on :
Maia, Some of the viruses used in some of the vaccines were also taken from aborted fetuses. I'm not sure if that is a variable that matters, or not.
Regarding her hypothesis, I know there is one lady out there now that is retired and says she has the proof. She used to work for a big vaccine company, and after retirement decided she wouldn't keep quiet about it anymore.
I'll have to find her name and the article. I'm not sure if she ever published her evidence, or what took place because I just didn't keep up with it.
I find some of the evidence related to different populations interesting. In populations without the vaccines there were zero cases of autism, but when vaccines were introduced suddenly autism shows up. I think those were the ones specifically with aborted fetal cell material.
I know that information is up on the site, but I'm not going to wade through it. =) Also, you can get one of the dvd's free if you call up COGFL and ask them to send it out to you. She goes through a detailed history of how each vaccine was made.
Posted by TNT (Member # 42349) on :
I'm too tired to reply to your "questions," Maia, but here are a couple links for you to consider:
I have more, but too tired to find. I know I saw it in the news about vaccinated kids getting measles and the unvaccinated ones not, but too tired to look further. It was in a New England state somewhere, I think Connecticut or Massachusetts.
I think you have your work cut out for you with Looking's citations.
Posted by Maia_Azure (Member # 44330) on :
quote:Brian Deer is the reporter hired by Rupert Murdoch’s son James Murdoch..
That is a very loose associated. Newscorp owns 132 papers worldwide. Working for one of Newscorps papers is not a link to GlaxoSmithKline, even if James Murdoch was a board member. Brian Deer was also working for Channel 4, a public-service television broadcaster. He also is responsible for pulling Septra off the market in the UK, a profitable drug of GlaxoSmithKline. I thought you had something legitimate, like being a paid consultant for a drug company
That being said, Brian Deer's work is based off of undisputed FOIA requests in the public record, even if you don't like him. I can link to some of those records he obtained below.
quote:Originally posted by Looking: You have not defended your statement that Dr. Wakefield has been proven a Fraud as the media hype would have us all believe.
I'm under the impression in the only one here who studied and works in the biological sciences.
First, no scientist not associated with Andrew Wakefield has ever been able to replicate his work . This is important, independent verification that duplicates the results. None of the studies you posted do that. I can go into them in more detail later.
Secondly, there are Conflicts of interest that make the ISDAs guidelines controversy look like child's play
1. Paid $400,000 UK Pounds by lawyers trying to prove that the vaccine was unsafe. Thus he had a direct personal & undeclared financial interest in his research totaling more than 8x times his reported annual salary. Incentive to keep the gravy train going, no?
2. The MMR findings in the Lancet were paid for through a law firm suing MMR manufacturers (confirmed by lawyer Richard Barr himself) He was paid $55,000. The school's dean, Professor Arie Zuckerman, questioned the arrangement on ethical grounds and the school rejected it. It had to be picked up by the hospital's chief executive, Martin Else, offering to pay it back to Wakefield as a "grant." This is an ethical breach never declared to the Lancet.
3. The children in the study used as evidence against the vaccine were also claimants in the lawsuit. They were not a series of kids with developmental disorders and digestive symptoms who came to the Hospital for care. There were 1,600 British families, recruited through media expecting to get a payout. This is public record as well. This is not good form in medical research.
4. In 1997~ 9 months before the press conference at which Wakefield called for single vaccines, he had filed a patent of his own supposedly "safer" single measles vaccine, which only stood a prospect of success if confidence in MMR was damaged. FOIA 4
A big problem is contaminated samples. Molecular tests carried out in Wakefields own lab had found no trace of measles in the children's guts and blood. That information came directly from Nick Chadwick, who worked under Wakefield. He checked Wakefields work at his request and did a PCR test which was negative. His tests were negative for measles as well. The results were printed in his thesis paper and a separate study of which the results contradicted Wakefields "findings":
This contamination was also independently verified by Stephen Bustin, known as top PCR expert. He examined the lab findings and procedures. He testified to his findings and determined that they were contaminated as no RNA was detected (measles is an RNA virus). Testimony is found in the Autism omnibus trial.
The last problematic aspect of the paper are mismatches between the lancet paper and the NHS medical records. There is a lot of documentation of some children have problems before given MMR, Wakefield reported as "previously normal" in the study. The BMJ cites examples from the parents own documentation and discharge papers:
quote: why don't they tell the truth that there is always some risk with vaccines
My doctors always hand me a paper listing the known complications from the particular vaccine they are talking to me about. I can only assume that the complications are so rare, that some doctors don't go into too much detail. That is wrong, but I have never encountered it.
Almost everything people claim about problems with their children after vaccination is anecdotal. Ive heard 12 hours, a few weeks, a few months after. It's pretty unconvincing. I suspect issues are higher here if we all suffer form Lyme. I can say my brother showed autistic symptoms before MMR, but I can see some parents not picking up on it till weeks or months after MMR vaccine and trying to blame that. It sounds better I guess?
It's also totally possible, but, not statistically significant if a study has never picked it up.
Posted by Maia_Azure (Member # 44330) on :
quote:Originally posted by TNT: I'm too tired to reply to your "questions," Maia, but here are a couple links for you to consider:
I can wait if you have answers at some point. I am always looking for more information.
quote:I think you have your work cut out for you with Looking's citations.
Not really, they are mostly a copy and pasted smokescreen created by someone. I am only interested in #6, 11 and 14 which I will respond to when I am not sleepy
I am ruling these as unrelated outright:
1. This study did not look for measles virus. Instead it looks at gastrointestinal (GI) malabsoption as an underlying mechanism for autism.
2. Wakefield is a co-author and 7 of the authors are also authors on the retracted paper in The Lancet. Not independent.
3. Wakefield (and Anthony) is a co-author, No independent support here as Wakefield et al. are the only researchers who have "found" the association.
4. Doesn't mention MMR, Wakefield is senior author, not independent findings.
5. Study did not look for measles virus, mumps or rubella virus or administration of the MMR. Predates Lancet study as well (meaning not testing the hypothesis as it didn't exist before).
6. Will read more later
7. This study did not look for measles virus but evaluated inflammatory response to specific dietary proteins.
8. Same as #7
9. Author was a colleague of Andrew Wakefield, and Wakefield is an editor of Autism Insights.
10. This is a case report, featuring two adult patients with gastrointestinal problems and ASD diagnoses. The authors call for more investigations in the paper itself, but I fail to see what this has to do with MMR.
11. Will read later.
12. No MMR mentioned. Mentions Celiacs disease. Not related in any way.
13. Did not look for measles virus, mumps or rubella virus. Study evaluated children previously diagnosed with developmental disorders for GI symptoms.
14. Will read later
15. This study did not look for measles virus. It evaluated 11 children’s response to a specific antibiotic. They are studying the disruption of indigenous gut flora, promoting colonization of neurotoxin-producing bacteria. They found that stopping the antibiotic looses the gains..thus there may be a gut flora-brain connection, which exacerbates autism symptoms. No connection to MMR here.
16. Predates the introduction of the MMR, Dr. Walker-Smith is a co-author of the retracted study in The Lancet, thus not independent even if it was about MMR.
17. Predates the introduction of the MMR, about childhood autism and adult schizophrenia.
18. Wakefield and 6 others from the Lancet paper are co-authors, not independent.
19. Wakefield et al AGAIN
20. This study did not look for measles virus, also previous co-authors with Wakefield. Not independent.
21. Previous co-authors with Wakefield (again, you can't confirm your own results).
22. Wakefield as senior author, therefore no independent replication of his results.
23. Study did not look for measles virus,mumps or rubella virus or anything connected with the gut.
24: Study did not look for measles virus,mumps or rubella virus. Its a study of adults with autism on blood levels of amino acids, to assess whether altered glutamatergic neurotransmission was likely in autism. Nothing to do with MMR.
25.Study did not look for measles virus,mumps or rubella virus or anything connected with the gut. Describes how to do PCR for specific bacteria on stool samples of autistic and non autistic children. So...???
26. Study did not look for measles virus,mumps or rubella virus or anything connected with the gut.
27. Published by colleagues of Wakefield. I had to find a translation, but the summary is that the authors did not replicate Wakefields paper, though they do report a higher incidence of gastrointestinal problems in their autistic group. Not sure what this has to do with MMR.
28. Study did not look for measles virus, mumps or rubella virus. Study did not evaluate changes in gut structure.
If you have to ask why a paper authored by Wakefield is not ok, its because you can't confirm your own results. Co-authors and colleagues who worked with you are not independent either, especially if they are working with the same data or financially tied with you.
You need researchers not affiliated with Wakefield to independently collaborate the results. This doesn't exist, though there are plenty of studies that do not find a link ( I know of 5 offhand)
Also, many of those studies are about GI symptoms and autism. No one has ever said that autistic kids don't have GI complaints, including inflammation. Thus I am wondering what this has to do with MMR.
First you would have to repeat Wakefields study, find a link, then you would study whether or not all these papers on GI issues and Autism are relevant. Without Wakefield hypotheses confirmed, most of these papers are not relevant.
Posted by Looking (Member # 13600) on :
Wow, Maia:
You keep referring to discredited info Brian Deer was associated with. Paid hitman is what he is considered in Britain.
I cannot take anything he says as credible. He disgraced himself with the way he talked to the parents of disabled children and he is no doctor and he doesn't know what he is talking about.
Using your reasoning I would have to dismiss all your citations as coming from people against Wakefield, what a waste of time -- your mind is closed.
Those citations I gave you are credible even if you don't like it.
I for one do not find you a credible researcher.
Not wasting anymore time on this.
Posted by rowingmom (Member # 41213) on :
Comparison of virus shedding after lived attenuated and pentavalent reassortant rotavirus vaccine. Vaccine. 2014 Feb 26;32(10):1199-204
"We document here the occurrence of vaccine-derived rotavirus (RotaTeq [Merck and Co, Whitehouse Station, NJ]) transmission from a vaccinated infant to an older, unvaccinated sibling, resulting in symptomatic rotavirus gastroenteritis that required emergency department care."
"Results of our investigation suggest that reassortment between vaccine component strains of genotypes P7[5]G1 and P1A[8]G6 occurred during replication either in the vaccinated infant or in the older sibling, raising the possibility that this reassortment may have increased the virulence of the vaccine-derived virus."
"Additionally, A Nicaraguan study published in 2012 found "the widespread use of the RotaTeq vaccine has led to the introduction of vaccine genes into circulating human RVs.," revealing that the widespread introduction of the vaccine strain has altered the genetic makeup of wild-type rotavirus that now infects exposed populations.[3]"
I would imagine all of this applies to other live attenuated vaccines as well.
An interesting statement from Immunologist, Dr Tetyana Obukhanych
I am very concerned that “immunologic memory” of adjuvant-containing vaccines is actually the basis of sensitization rather than the basis of immunity.
Furthermore, I am very concerned that “successful” prevention of childhood diseases by means of short-term protective effects of live attenuated viral vaccines during childhood has led to the loss of maternal ability to transfer immuno-protection to their young, thereby leaving infants vulnerable to those diseases, should the exposure occur.
I am also very concerned that vaccination campaigns work by disrupting disease transmission, which reduces the chances of exposure, rather than by establishing a population’s immunity. By doing so, vaccination campaigns wipe out population’s immunity to childhood diseases rather than help to maintain it.
If in prior decades there was naturally established herd immunity to childhood diseases among the adult population, then I am afraid that vaccination campaigns have ensured that it is long gone."
Posted by Maia_Azure (Member # 44330) on :
quote:Originally posted by Looking: [QB] Wow, Maia:
You keep referring to discredited info Brian Deer was associated with. Paid hitman is what he is considered in Britain.
His links are to Freedom of information act documents. They have nothing to do with Brian Deer. They are 100% real and in the public record. His website hosts the documents for retrieval only, so your thoughts on him are irrelevant.
Provide documentation for why you think he is discredited?
You have not proven that he is a hitman. He worked for a public TV station and a newspaper that was owned by Newscorp. He also did a hitpiece on the company you purport he is a "stooge" for. He can't work for a company than turn around and work against it. Also, if he worked for a company, he would be paid by them. Come back at me with something that actually makes sense, because I sincerely cannot follow your logic.
quote: He disgraced himself with the way he talked to the parents
You do know that those parents were expecting to get a settlement from a lawsuit? Of course they might not like the person who they believe kept them from their millions. DUH. Usually, when you run a study, you don't fill it with people expecting a financial windfall, its supposed to be a random sample. And it also doesn't explain why NHS documents and study documents do not have the same information. This was collaborated with the Hospitals own discharge papers. You can't support a study that has conflicting information like that.
It looks like your mind is the one that is closed here. I don't think you even understand the controversy.
A huge percentage of those links you gave, have nothing to do with MMR. So I wonder what YOU think they are collaborating?
A portion of them are references to Wakefields own work and that of his colleagues:
1. You CAN'T confirm your own results. Why you would think this is legit shows you don't have a grasp of medical literature and what peer reviewed independent research is. A lab cannot create its own studies that confirm themselves. An obvious reason is contamination of samples, which is something that was actually found to be a problem by Wakefield own grad student and an independent analysis by a top PCR expert. Thus you have to have ANOTHER lab perform the same study and repeat it. This has not happened.
2. Co-authors and colleagues who worked with you are not independent because they are working with the same data and/or financially tied with you. This should be completely obvious. I can't help you if you don't understand.
There is no Wakefield conspiracy. If he was on to something, it will be found. He f-ed up with contaminated samples (which he knowingly used according to his own lab) and was paid huge sums of money to come up with his results. HUGE conflict of interest. If you are giving him a pass, then I hope to never see you here comment on the ISDA guidelines and conflicts of interest, because you will be outing yourself as the worlds biggest hypocrite.
Posted by Maia_Azure (Member # 44330) on :
quote:Originally posted by Looking: Wow, Maia: Using your reasoning I would have to dismiss all your citations as coming from people against Wakefield, what a waste of time -- your mind is closed.
That is not how science works. I didn't dismiss citations because it was "FOR" or I didn't 'like it.' It was because as I stated above, you can't confirm your own data. Period. Think about it. If we only allowed ONE lab to provide a definitive answer, we would be in a ****load of trouble if it turned out they had sample contamination or error in process or researcher.
There is also not a pile of citations for the express purpose of being "against." Scientists don't sit around coming up with work that deliberately goes against someone they don't like. The data does the talking.
If the data showed that Wakefield was right, it would. When no one could reproduce his work, it likely made people wonder what exactly had happened. An investigation highlighted all the issues, but if you want to pretend it was all some elaborate hitjob, fine. How are those aliens in roswell, BTW?
We have multiple studies combing a decades worth of data that can't reproduce his work, thus there is no significant association.
quote:I for one do not find you a credible researcher. Not wasting anymore time on this.
If you don't understand how science works, insulting me isn't going to help. How old are you? Maybe tone down the emotion.
As a promised, here are the only studies in your list worth mentioning:
The study does not reinforce Wakefield findings, but says: "The antibody to this antigen was found in 83% of autistic children but not in normal children or siblings of autistic children. Thus autistic children have a hyperimmune response to measles virus, which in the absence of a wild type of measles infection might be a sign of an abnormal immune reaction to the vaccine strain or virus reactivation."
What the study is finding is that there may be a hyperimmune response to measles in children with autism versus controls, not that the vaccine causes autism.
The study itself sources data from Wakefield study (problematic) but states " Initial attempts were made to isolate measles virus from peripheral blood mononuclear cells and gut biopsies; however, the results are quite controversial and nonconclusive."
This paper is actually a summary. The assertions are not supported by the evidence in the paper. They state in the conclusions, Based on our laboratory data on virus and vaccine serology, we suggest that AAD is likely triggered by a virus, and that measles virus (MV and/or MMR vaccine) might be a very good candidate; however, more experimental research is needed to firmly establish the pathogenic link of measles virus with this brain disorder "
They also say we need to look into other infectious agents as well. This study does not support Wakefields hypothesis, so on its own it needs to be independently reproduced.
Someone actually took this idea further and could not find the link they were speculating on:
14: This is not even looking at the link between MMR and autism. It is a speculative paper presenting the hypothesis that autism symptoms are caused by a subacute, chronic tetanus infection. So not related in any way.
It says,
quote: "A significant percentage of individuals with autism have a history of extensive antibiotic use. Oral antibiotics significantly disrupt protective intestinal microbiota, creating a favorable environment for colonization by opportunistic pathogens."
It might be relevant if you have a child with extensive antibiotic usage from a young age and you are worrying about a viral or bacterial induced disruption.
Looking, if you think one of those papers prove something, you should state it. I assume you just copy and pasted it from somewhere and don't actually know what they say, since you included papers that have nothing to do with MMR. Looks like the Anti-vax movement doesn't have to try very hard to get people to promulgate their 'facts.' They get people to pass it on without even reading them! Talk about "stooge."
Lastly, I am open to a small subset of patients having viral or antigen induce autoimmunity. I have read studies that support this theory in utero, I haven't seen studies that support it after birth.
If it is a thing, it's likely such a small subset of the population, it is near impossible so far to ferret out. And we don't know if those people had a pre-existing condition or were genetically predisposed to have autism. What is clear so far is, the MMR vaccine is safe for healthy people as far as we know.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Quote: "What is clear so far is, the MMR vaccine is safe for healthy people as far as we know." (end quote)
Not good enough. That is just leaving the "small subset" of the population who have trouble to suffer.
Any vaccine on the market should be safe for all - not just for "healthy people." Actually, I'd say they may also be just "lucky people" too.
Some may do just fine. Others have not.
The list of additives is just staggering. So this is not so much about the vaccine theory in general as the additives.
If some can't metabolize those as well as others, or some have variations of any kind in how they may react, they still really must be considered.
That most do okay is just not good enough.
And, we just can't know all the way the additives may be affecting those who don't show immediate and acute reactions.
My body and brain have been very much damaged - several times - from vaccines over the decades. At least 4 times (various vaccines), it was very clearly the cause, with severe neurological symptoms within one hour of a tetanus shot, and damage that has lasted since 1987.
And, I've seen it happen in a little boy of a friend, too.
Now, they have removed the mercury for some vaccines and that's a good move. Yet aluminum and other neurotoxic agents remain.
Formaldehyde in in many vaccines.
Full disclosure is not happening. Instead, it takes a great deal of work to find out just what is in each one. And most people won't / can't do that. They don't have time, energy, money to take the time.
Media is not going to do that, either. Sadly.
There has simply, absolutely, got to be a safer way for all.
Not just for most people, not just for the lucky ones. For everyone to know beforehand that there are no toxic ingredients and that it will be safe.
An absolute guarantee for whatever is put in anyone's body - from independent 3rd, 4th & 5th parties of a consumer's choice - not just from the government, the government media puppets or the manufacturers.
I certainly cannot stand for anything less.
The work that Robert Kennedy, Jr. did with & to highlight many who documented concerns and issues was stellar. There is such a large body of work that is simply being discounted and, instead, an out and out bully war for those who have given this good consideration and want to have a choice. -
Posted by Rhiagel (Member # 21880) on :
My son had the mmr at 1-year-old and it sent him off into La-La Land. Our home movies clearly show his reaction to that gd vaccine. The next scene in the videos, a few days after the jab, shows him perseverating over opening and closing doors. At 2, he officially received the ASD label. At 5, he had his first solid stool when his DAN! doctor gave him diflucan. At 6, he tested positive for lyme, babesia, and bartonella. It was congenital as his mother had a deer tick on her in the '80s and never treated it. She subsequently tested positive for borrelia.
How the hell is an infant with a developing immune system suppose to fight off live injected viruses and bacteria when they are already trying to fight off lyme and co-infections? It's immoral and should be criminal for doctors to do this without first testing babies for latent infections.
Vaccines are so 20th century anyway. What we need are effective antivirals and better abx to kill off these intruders inside of us without causing us harm.
Here's a link to an experimental antiviral for measles:
[ 02-09-2015, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: Rhiagel ]
Posted by Looking (Member # 13600) on :
Maia, keep cherry picking your info if it makes you happy-- you don't even comment on the fact that vaccine courts have admitted that vaccines have caused harm.
Re Ryans case I linked to above (he's not the only one):
"On June 9, 2011, respondent (secretary of health and human services) filed a supplemental report pursuant to Vaccine Rule 4(c) stating it was respondent’s view that Ryan suffered a Table injury under the Vaccine Act – namely, an encephalitis within five to fifteen days following receipt of the December 19, 2003 MMR vaccine.
A lump sum payment of $969,474.91, in the form of a check payable to petitioners guardian(s)/conservator(s) of Ryan"
excerpt from actual court documents. --------------------
A recent court case was in Italy but you won't see media over here covering it.
MMR vaccine (Italy)
Valentino developed autism and, in a landmark judgment, a judge has ruled that his devastating disability was provoked by the inoculation against measles, mumps and rubella (MMR).
Judge Lucio Ardigo, awarding compensation to the family said it was ‘conclusively established’ that Valentino had suffered from an ‘autistic disorder associated with medium cognitive delay’ and his illness, as Dr Barboni stated, was linked to receiving MMR.
Are you now going to say these court decisions do not exist.
Since Wakefield wanted single shots not combined, how he has become anti-vaccine is absurd. ------------------------
You are now making up future conversations about IDSA that has nothing to do with this -- don't know how your mind went there -- sorry, that doesn't make sense to me.
As always people need to do their own research and make up their own minds in caring for themselves.
Have fun with your "research".
If you want an actual scientists point of view, you could read Dr. Hooker's experience dealing with FOIA requests to the CDC and how they were less than forthcoming:
Dr. Hooker has submitted over 100 FOIA requests to the CDC over the past 10 years and has amassed thousands of pages of documents showing malfeasance in the CDC's vaccine safety program.
Hooker revealed that one CDC document quoted a top official instructing CDC employees to "Review all correspondences and documents to see if there is 'foreseeable harm' to the agency if they were released" so the documents could be redacted by CDC attorneys prior to release.
Here's his article:
Methodological Issues and Evidence of Malfeasance in Research Purporting to Show Thimerosal in Vaccines Is Safe
quote:Originally posted by beaches: I really wonder why some people are here. #agendas
Right beaches, because you are the only one allowed to have an opinion. Everyone who suffers from Lyme must conform to YOUR viewpoint. Way to be rude. #whatsyouragenda?
For the record, my agenda is science literacy. And creating arguments based on scientific evidence, not some mommy wellness blog pulling conspiracy theories off the world wide web.
As Lyme sufferers, most of us have had encounters with medical professionals that cause some level of mistrust for doctors and scientists. So I see the parallels to the anti-vaccination movement.
But that movement itself is anti-establishment driven. Anti vaxxers think there is a mysterious medical conspiracy to push vaccines and that they're part of the small group who really "sees" the truth.
So there is no way to have a rational discussion with people who feel that way. I don't believe for a second that my pediatrician was part of some conspiracy pushing dangerous vaccines on me for Big Pharma's bottom line.
Why? Because vaccines overwhelmingly work and absolutely reduced and eradicated many childhood diseases that caused a lot of harm. That doesn't mean there are not risks. But I don't believe doctors are nefarious and would willingly inject poisons into children. Their data shows that it's safe. Until it's proved otherwise, they will promote them.
I believe in alternative therapy wholeheartedly, but not the underlining assumption that getting sick is your fault and you can prevent it in ALL cases.
I find that many people eschew vaccines are highly educated and wealthy. They honestly don't think their children will be exposed, or if so, it will be a big deal. They may believe that their kombucha, and probiotics, colonic cleanses and weekly adjustments at the chiropractors will keep their immune systems so healthy that they will just fight off measles and whopping cough.
And it may be, that we need to see a return of these diseases before people get it. Which is unfortunate because, we COULD eradicate many more like smallpox.
That being said, I do think there are many unnecessary vaccines. I think the flu shot is B.S. and it doesn't work well. But Whopping cough? My best friend got it as an adult, broke 1 rib and has had asthma ever since. Just because a disease doesn't kill you doesn't mean it's healthy to get.
---------------------------------------------
Oh yes Maia, absolutely! I am the ONLY one allowed to have an opinion and everyone here must conform to MY viewpoint! Where'd you pull THAT one from?
Mommy wellness blog? Really? Anti-establishment? Anti-vaxxer? You are quite something with your assertions!
Has ANYONE here claimed that kombucha, probiotics and chiropractic fight off measles?
Oh and about your friend coming down with asthma after whooping cough, do you have scientific evidence to prove that? I would say that could be simply coincidence. Afterall, we all know people who develop adult-onset asthma.
Oh and back to agendas and what-not. I am sure if you do a statistical analysis of my posts vs. yours, you would easily determine that the vast majority of yours are about vaccines. #agenda
Again to the parents, don't waste your time arguing with this person. You know your children better than anyone.
Posted by gz (Member # 43818) on :
I find it a little odd that this kind of argument perpetuates in a forum where most members' and/or their loved ones' lives have been tragically altered by lyme disease.
I would not consider us a subset of the general well population that needs a convincing argument in support of vaccination. Many of us, especially those with children, have experienced first hand how vaccines can harm.
While it may be true that vaccines are seemingly benign for the majority, people with TBD's are a pretty specific immunocompromised group. We still don't understand everything about TBD's, much less how their effect on the immune system interplays with vaccinations.
It's hard enough to find a doctor that knows how to treat lyme properly, so I'm not really comfortable trusting most docs' opinions on whether or not I should get that shot.
Posted by Looking (Member # 13600) on :
Anyone seen the documentary film just released called Trace Amounts
“This is a must see film,” says Congressman Dan Burton (R-Ind. 1983-2013), who was the Chairman of the Government Reform and Oversight Committee that led a four year investigation into vaccines and autism. “There is no doubt in my mind that mercury is a major contributing factor in the autism epidemic.”
[ 02-10-2015, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Looking ]
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
jus curious. it was considered "extinct" almost and now it ain't. seems odd..
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- It was never "extinct" - it seemed nearly eliminated for a couple of years, though there could be many variable involved there.
This explains a lot about the current situation.
Numbers behind some excerpts are for the citation, you can to right to the end of the article to see the source.
Be especially mindful of the text jumps indicated by each ellipsis [. . .] - because much has been omitted reposted snippets, and I may have overstepped on how much has been reposted so be sure to go to the link and read the full article. A few key points:
Measles in Disneyland: Third MMR Shot and Vaccine Exemption Ban
Measles Vaccine Failing
- By Barbara Loe Fisher - February 10, 2015
Excerpts -
. . . The CDC says that 12 percent of the measles cases associated with Disneyland were vaccinated, some of them with at least two doses of MMR vaccine.50 . . .
. . . Inconvenient Scientific Truths About Measles Vaccine
The inconvenient scientific truth about measles in Disneyland and around the world is that public health doctors do not know how many vaccinated people can be infected with measles, show few or no symptoms and transmit measles to other people.63
Government health officials do not conduct routine active surveillance of vaccinated people to find out if they are experiencing asymptomatic or atypical measles and transmitting it to others.
In addition, there are published studies demonstrating that people given live virus measles vaccine can be infected with vaccine strain measles virus and shed vaccine strain measles virus.64,65,66
Health officials do not conduct routine active surveillance of people getting live MMR vaccine to monitor for vaccine strain measles virus infection, shedding and the potential for transmission.
Is It Measles or Something Else?
. . . Yes, MMR vaccine can cause vaccine strain measles infection that looks just like measles.68
Plus, other common viral infections – like adenovirus infections – can look just like measles with rash, fever and conjunctivitis symptoms69,70
and be misdiagnosed as measles UNLESS there is expensive RNA lab testing done to confirm that what looks like measles really is wild type measles.71 . . .
. . . Using Disneyland to Move the Goalposts . . .
. . . That third MMR shot is coming to America and so is a massive Pharma-led lobby attempt to demonize and punish76,77 all Americans who defend the human right to exercise informed consent to medical risk-taking, including vaccine risk-taking.78
The calls to strike down those who do not use every dose of the growing list of government-mandated vaccines, is on a fast track.79,80
It will include banning the unvaccinated from exercising the right to get a public education, medical care,81 employment, and many other human and civil rights. . . .
. . . Go to NVICAdvocacy.org and learn how you can take action to protect vaccine exemptions in your state. Learn more about the risks and complications of measles and measles vaccine on NVIC.org.
And if you or your child has been vaccinated and the vaccine failed to protect you or caused harm, you can make a report to NVIC and share your experience with others on NVIC.org.
It's your health. Your family. Your choice.
Protect Your Right to Informed Consent and Defend Vaccine Exemptions . . . .
. . . Internet Resources Where You Can Learn More . . . . [What you can do]
Links 2/3 of the way down -
Again, remember that this is not necessarily about vaccine theory as about all the ingredients combined. But it is about freedom to know.
To complement this article, he excellent link "Looking" posted above:
[ 02-10-2015, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- I was in about 5th grade when the measles vaccine came out. And, you know what. Up until that time, measles was NOT nearly as contagious as the media / gov't is saying.
Sure, there were a couple kids in a classroom, or within families that got it around the same time as others but not at all a large percentage even within families. Mine included. Same for mumps & chicken pox.
Preventing potentially serious disease is a good thing. Absolutely. And I'm not saying it's not.
And there are many ways to work on that (giving someone neurotoxins is not one, though so that stuff does not belong in there) -
- and there some good ways to also address viruses that regular doctors don't even consider but naturopathic doctors do. The old "oh, there is no treatment for a virus" is just a lazy lie.
And to add acetaminophen just complicates a person's health, possibly very seriously.
But the full on panic in the press right now is just thick with manipulation. They are not reaching out for a full research method.
Another concern:
Elders and disabled are also at risk regarding their right to be informed and the right of choice on this issue if they are receiving service / care / lodging in any formal setting.
While many have received a full round of vaccines by the time they reach this point, now that the government is looking to make sure everyone who's breathing take a new round (beyond the yearly flu shots), all bets are off as to exact plans.
And many of them have serious immune system reasons for not receiving vaccines yet also of concern is the matter of the neurotoxic additives. Aluminum & formaldehyde are just two of many. -
[ 02-10-2015, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by Looking (Member # 13600) on :
So since the MMR shot is not effective in a number of people, we should subject them to this poor performing vaccine a third time now.
And if the ineffectiveness continues should we up that to 4 or 5 shots?
That should make a lot more money for the vaccine sellers.
Posted by beaches (Member # 38251) on :
Good points Keebler and Looking.
One of my kids had 2 MMRs per vaccine schedule only to be left without immunity by senior year in HS. Got another shot.
Thankfully (?) at least at that time one could get just the measles shot without the Mumps or Rubella portion. Now there is no longer a stand alone measles shot.
So even if you decide to get a measles booster, those other shots are coming along for the ride, whether you need them or not.
Posted by Looking (Member # 13600) on :
Shocker: Why don't we see this on the news?
Allegedly, the mumps vaccine may have been a fraud for the last 10 years due to not being very effective and it is now before the courts due to whistleblower complaints.
Merck tried to have it dismissed but lost on 1 count so that part is apparently going ahead.
They are accused of knowingly fabricating it's efficacy at 95% in order to get contracts with the gov't.
The court document is long so here is the relevant part:
The Court is unmoved by Defendant’s (Merck) argument. Here, Plaintiffs allege that “as a direct and proximate result” of Defendant’s “misrepresentations and omissions” they were deceived into purchasing Defendant’s product. (Dkt. No. 26 ¶ 168.)
They allege that they “would not have purchased or used Mumps Vaccine had they known the truth” about its efficacy. (Dkt. No. 26 ¶ 167.)
Courts have found that this direct causation argument is sufficient to survive a motion to dismiss. --------
Apparently Merck falsified test results and sold millions of doses of "questionable efficacy," flooding and monopolizing the market, a primary caregiver claims in a federal antitrust class action.
I'm no lawyer, but that's my understanding of it.
Here is the synopsis in plain english, short and easy to read:
PARENTS on this forum have always had the best of intentions, considering their posts involve their kids one way or another.
What I don't understand are the misogynistic comments directed at mothers here by a particular member.
This particular subject isn't the first time this person has disparaged mothers of sick children.
To any and all reading, think twice or three times before you attack mothers who take care of very sick children.
Unless and until you have walked in my shoes, or the shoes of so many here, keep quiet.
You might learn a thing or two by keeping your mind open and your mouth shut.
Posted by Maia_Azure (Member # 44330) on :
quote:Originally posted by Maia_Azure: [QUOTE]Originally posted by rowingmom: I am very concerned that “successful” prevention of childhood diseases by means of short-term protective effects of live attenuated viral vaccines during childhood has led to the loss of maternal ability to transfer immuno-protection to their young, thereby leaving infants vulnerable to those diseases, should the exposure occur.
Passive immunity from the mother only lasts a few weeks. You could get a booster while pregnant or right after birth to stimulate the response. They do that with pertussis.
quote:By doing so, vaccination campaigns wipe out population’s immunity to childhood diseases rather than help to maintain it.
Before vaccines, the only way to become immune to a disease was to actually get it and, with luck, survive. A vaccine is either a live, weak virus, attenuated, or dead. Or it can be viral proteins, etc.
Vaccines are in effect simulating the humoral antibody response. The macrophages find the vaccine, display the antigens to lymphocytes (B and T cells) that secrete the antigens. When this "disease" is fought off, B cells and T cells convert into memory cells. These cells will circulate through your body for the rest of your life. To restimulate a waning response, you get a booster (Some people who aquire the disease can lose immunity as well, its not just a vaccine thing).
There isn't a natural immunity to whopping cough or smallpox, once your maternal antibodies wore off, you have no immunity. You were just as susceptible to contracting it.
Even if over time a population of people who survived a disease had a better chance of passing on recovery to their progeny, I'm perplexed at why you think we need immunity to a disease that we have eradicated.
Diseases are fighting for survival. Remove their reservoir, and they die out. If somehow, smallpox appeared, all you would need to do would be to revaccinate to maintain immunity.
The whole point of vaccination is to build up kids immunity in a controlled and less medically risky way. It's the same humoral antibody response as when you get the disease, without the same risk as the disease itself.
Posted by Maia_Azure (Member # 44330) on :
quote:Originally posted by randibear: yes but where did itcome from??? why california??? something doesnt add up..
It was eradicated in the US in the early 2000s. It still exists in other parts of the world and causes death in the 3rd world. It re-appeared in California because an unvaccinated international traveler brought it into the country.
CA is a good spreading zone because there are pretty high pockets of unvaccinated individuals, especially in Orange County.
Posted by rowingmom (Member # 41213) on :
Maia - can you address this please, and explain why the same mode of transmission would not apply to other live attenuated vaccines, ie. MMR
quote:Originally posted by Looking: Maia, keep cherry picking your info if it makes you happy-- you don't even comment on the fact that vaccine courts have admitted that vaccines have caused harm.
I am not cherry picking data, Ive actually read the data. You haven't found an independent study that back's up Wakefields hypothesis. 75 studies and counting have not found the link he hypothesized.
The other point you fail to acknowledge is that Wakfield was paid over half a million dollars to do the 'study' by people looking to sue the manufacturer of the vaccines. He was paid over 50,000 by lawyers representing families, and also filled his study with these plaintiffs. He also stood to make money with a single dose vaccine. If we changed the circumstances to Lyme, people here would consider him a pariah. Thats the link to the ISDA.
Yes, he wasn't anti-vaccination. But he never proved his link between gastroenteritis and MMR and autism. So there is no medical need as of yet for a single dose shot. Having a one shot reduces the amount of visits to the doctor and shots you need AND exposure to additives.
quote:you don't even comment on the fact that vaccine courts have admitted that vaccines have caused harm.
Because it's not relevant. I don't know kind of doctor you go to, but every time I have been vaccinated I received information on the benefits and risks. Its not a conspiracy, its well known that vaccines have side effects. That's why VAERS exists, and the vaccine court.
quote:Ryan suffered a Table injury under the Vaccine Act – namely, an encephalitis within five to fifteen days following receipt of the December 19, 2003 MMR vaccine.
It is documented that in incredibly rare cases, encephalopathy can occur after vaccination. This is a known risk. Awarding parents money if a court determines this happened, is not proof that it caused autism.
Children who develop encephalitis have been shown to have a genetic mutation. Mitochondrial disorders are rare, predominantly genetic diseases. Measles causes encephalitis as well, thus you have higher risk of it from measles vs the vaccine hands down.
quote:A recent court case was in Italy but you won't see media over here covering it. Are you now going to say these court decisions do not exist.
No, but a Court case is not proof of an autism link, especially because they used the retracted Wakefield paper as a basis of their ruling. Courts decide on the law, not on deciding the value of scientific evidence. Science doesn't rely on a panel of non-experts (a jury) to determine which side's evidence is better. That would be scary, indeed.
Its also worth noting that Luca Ventaloro is a well known Italian anti-vaccine advocate and his "expert medical witness" was Massimo Montinari, who has not authored any biomedical research papers on autism, MMR or vaccines. He does sell his own autism "cure" protocol, if you are wondering.
quote:If you want an actual scientists point of view, you could read Dr. Hooker's experience dealing with FOIA requests to the CDC and how they were less than forthcoming:
Dr. Hooker is an engineer with no background in any of the key areas of study regarding vaccines: immunology, virology, microbiology, epidemiology, or even public health. So how he is an 'actual scientist' is anyone's guess. His paper based on the CDC data was also retracted due to issues in the peer review process and concerns about the validity of the methods and statistical analysis:
He reanalyzed a Destefano case-control studythat had found no statistically significant correlations between MMR and autism. Hooker took the data and created a cohort study. He then performed multiple subset analyses, a method prone to false negatives and positives. Pretty slippery, eh?
quote: Methodological Issues and Evidence of Malfeasance in Research Purporting to Show Thimerosal in Vaccines Is Safe
This paper (not a study) presents no original data and critiques other epidemiological studies in an effort to create a conspiracy at the CDC. Two of the authors have legal trouble for pushing a dangerous and harmful "cure" for autism.
Mark Geier chairs the Institute of Chronic Illnesses, where he approves his own "studies." They also purport to cure autism with heavy metal chelation. Mr. Geier had his license to practice medicine suspended due his "Lupron protocol" and the way he misdiagnosed children in order to prescribe Lupron. Thus they treated disabled children with a drug for which there was no clinical need.
Brian Hooker was a board member of Focus Autism, so if you follow the money trail, they all stand to make it peddling their claims. Lisa Sykes is a pastor so I am unsure what her medical credentials are.
Even if we ignore their financial incentives and lack of medical qualifications, I'd like to see real data from them. Otherwise their claims of a CDC conspiracy are just rantings on the internet to line their pockets.
Posted by Maia_Azure (Member # 44330) on :
quote:Originally posted by Keebler: - I was in about 5th grade when the measles vaccine came out. And, you know what. Up until that time, measles was NOT nearly as contagious as the media / gov't is saying.
My mother had the measles before the vaccine came out. Also whopping cough. Back then, it was highly contagious and very common. I'm not sure why you would claim it "wasn't contagious." A claim you've created as a 5th grade witness?
quote:- and there some good ways to also address viruses that regular doctors don't even consider but naturopathic doctors do. The old "oh, there is no treatment for a virus" is just a lazy lie.
I see a naturalpath doctor. However, they don't have the power to protect you from contagious virulent diseases upon exposure. A naturalpath who claims that is being disingenuous.
quote: While many have received a full round of vaccines by the time they reach this point, now that the government is looking to make sure everyone who's breathing take a new round
Why would they do that? The measles vaccine is 97% effective, despite someone claiming below the shot is not effective. No one is going to force you to get a booster.
quote:And many of them have serious immune system reasons for not receiving vaccines yet also of concern is the matter of the neurotoxic additives.
People with immune complications should not receive vaccinations and would get an medical exemption.
quote:Also of concern is the matter of the neurotoxic additives. Aluminum & formaldehyde are just two of many.
My problem with the debate is that first, it was vaccines and autism. Since that link has never been found, the goal posts were moved. Then it became, the overwhelming schedule! Well, despite more vaccines in the schedule today, there are less antigens overall than in the 1990s.
Then we want single shots! Why do you want a single dose shot? The human body has the power to repsond to a million antigens at any given time, what is a 3 dose vaccine going to do?
Finally, why do people want a single dose vaccine, then turn around and complain about toxins? More shots = more toxins?
Also, you mentioned formaldehyde. You have more naturally circulating in your body from metabolism on any given day than the shot would give you.
I am 100% for removing an additive if it is found to cause problems. Which specific ones are you concerned about?
Posted by Maia_Azure (Member # 44330) on :
quote:Originally posted by Looking: Shocker: Why don't we see this on the news?
Ive read about it. Apparently the vaccine to the mumps wears off over time. The effectiveness is approximately 85-88%, Merck’s data for mumps is on the upper end of the statistical errors for independent research.
If the vaccine is not as effective as thought, it would mean that booster shots would be in order. Also, the course and severity of the mumps infection is less than those who were never vaccinated. So it does impart protection, even as it wanes. So I don't see it as some sort of scam.
The good news is, Merk isn't by themselves the only authority on vaccine effectiveness. Because we all know how trustworthy Big Pharma is.
Posted by Looking (Member # 13600) on :
Maia, you do go on and on. Is that 20 posts you've made on this thread -- I've kind of lost count.
No wonder people think you might have an agenda.
I know people get paid to post support on certain subjects, I sure hope you are not one of them.
Don't waste your time posting to me, I actually gave up reading your replies several posts ago.
You seem to think your opinion is more valuable than any professionals quoted here, I don't share that view.
Posted by Maia_Azure (Member # 44330) on :
quote:Originally posted by rowingmom: Maia - can you address this please, and explain why the same mode of transmission would not apply to other live attenuated vaccines, ie. MMR
Viral shedding has been observed with two vaccines, the live nasal spray flu vaccine and the rotavirus vaccine. Weakened viruses in live attenuated vaccines can shed, but in weakened amounts. I used to get a mild illness from the flu shot for this reason
A live, attenated vaccine causes a harmless infection. There is no proof that the MMR vaccine sheds the measles virus, spreading the disease prevented by the vaccine. Wouldn't that mean it is mutating back to a virulent state, and wouldn't parent notice the rash upon giving the shot?
Are you asking if the vaccine is spreading the virus? Since measles was eradicated here, I would say that doesn't seem likely. If people are catching a "mild" form of the disease from the shot, for the sake of argument..then, so? What would that mean? That we are getting a mild and benign virus instead of full blown measles and its complications?
I'm not saying all vaccines are created equal, but you need evidence to claim they are causing more harm then they prevent. Finding a handful of people with apparent harm out of millions that suffered no ill effects and were saved FROM harm is not really significant.
Mothers wanting to make informed decisions for their families does not mean you have to entertain the conspiracy theories they pull from the internet. Perhaps they feel attacked because they can't defend their assertions, or are highly suggestible to those theories so no, you will never convince them with facts. Some people just are a bit nutty.
Healhty skepticism is good, I have it for the flu shot. However, I don't use discredited studies and false facts to rationalize my beliefs, then imagine scenarios where the CDC and the Gov is out to get me. Not partaking in that is not rude, or misogynistic, as one member thinks.
And looking, its ok. I know you gave up reading because you don't have any responses to basic questions about your assertions. Your idea of a professional is, well, absurd. Two persons (hooker and Wakefield) who have had papers retracted due to issues with their credibility, both of whom either made or stand to make money off of their claims. And neither of which actually have any data supporting their claims. People who are peddling autism "cure" protocols. I mean, really!
I don't have an agenda, I just am home sick with a lot of free time, and get tired of misinformation. If it makes you feel better, you can believe all the ridiculous theories you want. I've just asked you for documentation, or an actual study with results. That kind of thing.
Posted by 'Kete-tracker (Member # 17189) on :
You get the measles vaccine & you MIGHT develop problems. OR- You MIGHT get measles, & then you MIGHT develop problems (or not).
So *why* risk complications from getting vaccinated, especially if getting the vaccine doesn't Guarantee not contracting measles later!??
I mean... D-U-H!!
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Maia,
I was there! That's how I can say that measles did not infect everyone at the same time (even at time before the vaccine was on the market). It was just a comment and one could go on to wonder about all the variables around that.
Not saying measles are not contagious (it is) just - even before vaccine - I was there and saw it sort of went in smaller groupings in families and school.
Yes, by 5th grade, age 11, memory forming does work by then. Talking with a sibling the other night confirmed the year as she was the one with the measles that year. Not the rest of us or the younger kids, though. We had those 2 years or so prior - and she did not catch it then though we shared a bedroom. Just a little puzzling. That's all.
And you say that you see a "A naturalpath" - and use that spelling several times.
There is no such kind of doctor. Don't know who you've been seeing or their credentials but if it were a naturopathic doctor, likely the spelling would be clear.
And, the point was not that I said they had some miracle at all. The point of what I was saying is that there are some anti-viral herbals that can help the body be strong and, if a virus is contracted, help as it manages through. That's all. -
Posted by TNT (Member # 42349) on :
quote:Originally posted by Keebler: And you say that you see a "A naturalpath" - and use that spelling several times.
There is no such kind of doctor. Don't know who you've been seeing or their credentials but if it were a naturopathic doctor, likely the spelling would be clear.
Can't get IDSA correct, either.
Posted by docluddite (Member # 36032) on :
Merck's package insert included with the MMR vaccine states that viral shedding has been noted after vaccination, of one or two of the constituent viruses, not measles. Merck has that disclosure on their website. If you exclude those too young for Measles vaccination from the total of those who contracted Measles linked to the Disney outbreak, close to 50% had at least one of the "recommended" doses. What that says to me is, vaccinated or not, if you are exposed to measles, there is a 50-50, or EVEN odds that you will get the illness. Doesn't inspire me to try to use vaccination to build up my immune system. There seems to be a media bias encouraging people to get vaccination. They are claiming that someone from abroad was patient zero, but nothing definitive has been stated on this regard. Related news stories are about parents of immune compromised children urging people to get vaccinated so protect their immune compromised child from being exposed. If their child is immune compromised, it is their responsibility to keep the child in a sterile environment until the compromised immune system has been restored to normal function. Other news stories seem to equate non-vaccinated individuals with carriers of all manner of "vaccine preventable" illnesses. Truth is, recently vaccinated children are more likely to be shedding virus than non-vaccinated, and since the vaccine manufacturers themselves claim that immunity wanes with time, most of the adult component of the general public is likely not immune to anything they were ever vaccinated for.
Posted by SacredHeart (Member # 44733) on :
Is this thread still going? Wow. =)
Posted by rowingmom (Member # 41213) on :
quote:Originally posted by docluddite: Merck's package insert included with the MMR vaccine states that viral shedding has been noted after vaccination, of one or two of the constituent viruses, not measles. Merck has that disclosure on their website. If you exclude those too young for Measles vaccination from the total of those who contracted Measles linked to the Disney outbreak, close to 50% had at least one of the "recommended" doses. What that says to me is, vaccinated or not, if you are exposed to measles, there is a 50-50, or EVEN odds that you will get the illness. Doesn't inspire me to try to use vaccination to build up my immune system. There seems to be a media bias encouraging people to get vaccination. They are claiming that someone from abroad was patient zero, but nothing definitive has been stated on this regard. Related news stories are about parents of immune compromised children urging people to get vaccinated so protect their immune compromised child from being exposed. If their child is immune compromised, it is their responsibility to keep the child in a sterile environment until the compromised immune system has been restored to normal function. Other news stories seem to equate non-vaccinated individuals with carriers of all manner of "vaccine preventable" illnesses. Truth is, recently vaccinated children are more likely to be shedding virus than non-vaccinated, and since the vaccine manufacturers themselves claim that immunity wanes with time, most of the adult component of the general public is likely not immune to anything they were ever vaccinated for.
Thank you.
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
I had it all -- measles. mumps. chicken pox and even mono...
because dad was military and we travelled worldwide I was vaccinated out the yingyang or I didn't go to school. I had to have those shot records.
no wonder I'm half crazy...
but the worst was a flu shot I got a couple of years ago. started a spiral downward of which I've never recovered.
doc wanted to give me a tetanus recently and I said hell no.
I'm not a mom but I don't see how y'all do it. I was bad enough with my dog. she sneezed and off to the vet! and she was not spoiled!!!
moms deserve all the help they can get. I miss mine every single minute.
Posted by Maia_Azure (Member # 44330) on :
quote:Originally posted by TNT:
quote:Originally posted by Keebler: There is no such kind of doctor. Don't know who you've been seeing or their credentials but if it were a naturopathic doctor, likely the spelling would be clear.
Can't get IDSA correct, either.
That would be my neurolyme. But I appreciate being made fun of for having Lyme.
Because I employ a healthy dose a skepticism to claims that don't have a strong scientific basis, I am a troll, have a #agenda, not a "credible researcher," that i must be paid(please let me know where the gov can send checks to, as i am currently unemployed and would love to get paid)
I also cherry pick my data (despite having read all links given to me and written out my reasoning), that people shouldn't "waste their breath" just because I expect them to support their claims.
The cake is a am misogynist because I don't think blog posts written by random internet health guru's and moms is appropriate scientific evidence.
As I have maintained, I am open to a small subset of patients having viral or antigen induce autoimmunity. I completely agree that immune compromised individuals should be careful.
But, using retracted studies and posting ones that have nothing to do with MMR, and making unsubstantiated claims (that have been disproven any times over), I don't do. I worked in academia, I read pubmed for a living. 90% of the anti vaccination information is disingenuous, or shows a complete lack of understanding.
Today's immunization schedule calls for kids to get 55 doses of vaccines by age 6. Sounds scary until you realized that in the 1960s-1990s, kids were exposed to over 3,000 antigens and now its ~315.
The believed safety of vaccines is well studied, it's not nefarious. Some scientists are asking great questions. The fetal cells is interesting, so is certain additives like alum. I don't trust Big Pharma, or Big Herbal, or always the CDC. That's why we have researchers who extensively study this, ones that aren't affiliated with Big Pharma.
Every medical intervention has risks. Even antibiotics and aspirin. Just like vaccines, there are warnings on the labels. A young infant recently died from a contaminated probiotic supplement.
We eradicated diseases because of these vaccines along with improvements in public health. If you want to pretend that getting polio or smallpox or measles was no big deal, that's fine. But statistics don't lie, more people have been saved from death and serious complications than have been harmed, as far as we know.
If that's not good enough for you, then opt out and be glad its good enough for most other people, of whom protect yourselves and your children. The recent whopping cough and measles outbreaks confirm that once vaccination rates drop, it just takes an unvaccinated traveler or person with waning immunity to bring back an eradicated disease.
No amount of herbal drops and organic food protected me from Lyme once I contracted it. Upon exposure, measles is contagious. We know this, despite some of you claiming otherwise. Severity of disease is genetic and environmental.
A vaccine protects you from a disease better than any herbal remedies, because it mimics a natural response. Proving harm requires evidence, not anecdotal stories about autistic regression that occurred at completely varying time frames (days, weeks, months..) and ignoral of the purported genetic basis of some autism.
If there is a risk of exacerbating autistic symptoms in those who are predisposed, then that is important and would be grounds for testing to find out who should opt out. If vaccines can trigger autism in a small subset, we need to tease that out so we know what the risk factors are. We haven't found that link yet.
Unfortunately I think there is a strong bias against credible links because people are afraid of being tarred like Andrew Wakefield, even though he deserved it. The Pandemrix story comes to mind.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- It's not just about repeated misspelling, though as in the posts the concept of naturopathy does not seem to be fully understood in regards to the scope, the range, the various elements involved.
Most who have worked with a naturopathic physician come to understand the fuller scope in approach (and also where different kinds of medicine - allopathic & naturopathic - may work together).
It's not as easy as just taking this herb or that supplement after a certain infection has taken hold.
Mostly, it's about the individual, knowing them beforehand, and then if the get an acute infection, knowing what would work best for THEIR body. A more comprehensive approach.
Again, it's not so much about the vaccine theory (yet there are other approaches to support immune function, too) as much as the concern about additives and the risk they pose not just in one vaccine but in the dozens that that so many receive -- and how each individual person can or cannot manage, process those. Some just cannot.
There is no one-size-fits all approach to anything about medical care. We are fools to ever think there is and when we do - when we reduce all humans to pegs - it can really harm a lot of people who just don't fit into the perfectly round holes or neat squares. -
Posted by beaches (Member # 38251) on :
Really Maia? Your supposed neuro-lyme is the reason for your use of the term "naturalpath" several times?
I know all about neuro-lyme and your story just doesn't ring true.
You are new here and yet you opted to malign a broad group of people who happen to be mothers with your generalizations/assertions/assumptions about "mommy blogs" and the like.
Just for your information, typically the brain matter of mothers is not pushed out along with the baby.
In fact, women who become mothers often acquire knowledge through experience and real life. Go figure!
You have NO idea of anyone's education or professional affiliations here, yet you continue to assume yours are superior to others.
Perhaps it's time you lifted your head up and looked around.
Posted by Looking (Member # 13600) on :
I feel bad for anyone with neuro-lyme. Could be why much info posted is taken from inaccurate sites.
I just want to note that "Brian Hooker" has a phd in biochemical engineering. Biochemical engineers can work for biomedical firms, environmental companies etc.
And indeed a valid "scientist" with many papers on pubmed easily found, especially if one had once worked for them:
It goes without saying that taking down Hooker’s paper, Methodological Issues and Evidence of Malfeasance in Research Purporting to Show Thimerosal in Vaccines Is Safe, doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with the paper. It could simply mean the publishers are being antagonized by industry supporters to the point they don't want to deal with it.
Something like the pressure CDC applies to deny that lyme disease can be chronic. It's all gone after a few weeks of antibiotics -- Right??? Anyone resisting that viewpoint risks their medical practice.
That's how I see it anyway. Just IMHO.
Posted by rowingmom (Member # 41213) on :
As this seemed the place to do it, I am posting a link to "200 evidence based reasons not to vaccinate" from GreenMedInfo.
"...over 300 pages of study abstracts culled directly from the National Library of Medicine's pubmed.gov bibliographic database on the wide-ranging adverse health effects linked to vaccines in the today's schedule (over 200 distinct adverse effects, including death), as well as numerous studies related to vaccine contamination, and vaccine failure in highly vaccine compliant populations."
Thanks for posting it, from one ignorant "mommy blogger" to another.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Suggestion for articles (or lists) with good detailed information.
Create your own file pages so if these disappear from the web, all is not lost.
Copy & paste those with the authors' names, dates, journal issue numbers, etc.
And the link, of course, on that page. But, sometimes these kinds of links will just disappear or some of the detail will be deleted.
This happened with some of the links that I had saved with Robert Kennedy, Jr.'s work on this topic. Just gone.
And it's happened with various links for herbal education articles that were very detailed. Just gone.
Also if you use "Tiny URL's" they often expire so be sure to save the full original link - exact title, author, etc. so that information might be searched in other ways if you ever need it.
When printing out detail, it can also help to be sure some of this identifying detail is with an article. Often the link will be printed on the page but not always. -
Posted by Maia_Azure (Member # 44330) on :
quote:Originally posted by Looking: I just want to note that "Brian Hooker" has a phd in biochemical engineering.
Having over 50 science and engineering papers published in internationally recognized, peer-reviewed journals doesn't mean you are an expert in immunology, infection disease, virology, etc.
He may be a capable and smart guy in his chosen field, however, he needs to produce data that supports his current hypothesis. Not just critiquing other epidemiological studies. And that data needs to be reproduced, it's that simple.
quote:It goes without saying that taking down Hooker's paper, Methodological Issues and Evidence of Malfeasance in Research Purporting to Show Thimerosal in Vaccines Is Safe, doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with the paper.
Except for the fact that we DO know why the paper was retracted.
Medical studies can be retracted by the authors, if they feel some of their work won't stand up to scrutiny or want to re-work it. Wakefield's was retracted because he didn't disclose financial ties,falsified study data, and failed to disclose that his samples were contaminated. It also was never reproduced.
Brian Hooker's was retracted because upon review, he used poor methodology. He used a subset analysis that is prone to false positives, and it was incorrect for the type of data anyway. There is no "conspiracy" there. If he can re-work it and fix those errors, it could be published. My guess is he won't, cause he's been had.
Even IF it was true he only found "statistical significance" among African American males. That makes no sense unless you know he used poor methodology. He was able to rework the data till he found a positive, but only in one random subset of the population.
I think the problem with science currently is how hard it is to understand. Scientific findings cannot prove negatives. The layman also doesn't understand that abstracts get written and presented all the time. Sometimes, it looks like a researcher has found something amazing or alarming, a link might be associated with an event..but then subsequent studies fail to show a correlation.
Positive correlations becomes easier and easier to find the more ways the data is cut. There also can be selection bias, or difficulty in obtaining proper case controls. So you could find a study that purports to show a significant link to Hep B vaccine and MS, but upon multiple comparisons you find no link. Thus it did not stand up to statistical rigor. That doesn't mean the CDC is hiding the nefarious truth.
It also doesn't mean that HepB vaccine NEVER made someone more susceptible to MS, or that vaccine induced autism has NEVER occurred. Or that immunocompromosed individuals have no issues with vaccinations.
What it does mean is that for healthy people, vaccines are known to be overwhelmingly safe. Safer than many of the drugs we use to treat for medical conditions. And safer than getting the diseases them self.The problem is, we accept the side effects when we are treating for a problem we have, but it's much harder to accept them for something we MIGHT have, and something that we haven't seen kill people for decades. Its too abstract.
quote: Something like the pressure CDC applies to deny that lyme disease can be chronic. It's all gone after a few weeks of antibiotics -- Right???
The difference is, you can produce studies, and MANY of them that counter this thought process. Lyme disease sufferers do have evidence to back up their claims. The vaccine issue is prime terrain for biased and motivated reasoning. There is no evidence of wide scale harm, yet it doesn't stop the internet. And it harms actual people who have autism and how the medical community takes seriously links that do show causality.
Posted by Maia_Azure (Member # 44330) on :
quote:Originally posted by beaches: I know all about neuro-lyme and your story just doesn't ring true.
I take a break from the internet for some shoveling the past week, and I come back and you are still making fun of my neurolyme symptoms. How old are you guys?
If my story 'doesn't ring true" then why are there numerous sources of Lyme symptoms that list cognitive issues like:Confusion, difficulty thinking, difficulty with concentration, reading, spelling
quote:you opted to malign a broad group of people who happen to be mothers with your generalizations/assertions/assumptions about "mommy blogs" and the like.
I'm not maligning people. If you procure sources from the bowel of the internet (+ points if the website replaces "S" with $) and places like "natural news" or "greenmed" I am less likely to take it seriously. Why? Because #agenda. Especially if many of those sources are known to take information out of context and make money catering to a specific crowd prone to that type of thinking. I am a multiple sources kind of person.
And yes, I don't take information from blog posts (unless claims are backed up) or personal anecdotes of your friends mother's child as fact. That doesn't mean I am mean to 'mommies" trying to care for their children. Perhaps you wouldn't be so up in arms about my reference to "mommy blogs" if it wasn't true.
Believe me, my cousin gets all her vaccine info from websites she read on the internet (VACTRUTH!!) and talks to people like they just don't get it. It's refreshing to know that Modern AlternativeMoma is considered an expert in all things medical. Which isn't to say I don't agree with some of what she says, but she not a vaccine expert, that's for sure.
quote: You have NO idea of anyone's education or professional affiliations here, yet you continue to assume yours are superior to others.
No, that is how YOU feel. It is obvious that the problem here is how threatened you feel by other opinions that don't align with your worldview. I am the one here who has been continually insulted as a deflection so that the people I asked questions to don't actually have to respond.
It is true that I have worked in a biological research lab and taken statistical analysis courses, so yes my background would make me more qualified to understand things. That doesn't mean I think i am RIGHT all the time.
If you can procure a study that proves MMR causes autism, by all means. What I have only seen posted is a list of 28 links, most of which were not independent, did not even mention MMR or autism, and only one stated "more research needed." Getting mad at me isn't going to change those facts, and involving me in some sort of elaborate conspiracy isn't either.
[ 03-24-2015, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Maia_Azure ]
Posted by Looking (Member # 13600) on :
Answer to your quote, is that what you meant to say? ---- thought you would know this already.
========================================== "If you can procure a study that proves MMR causes measles, by all means" ==========================================
Case of vaccine-associated measles five weeks post-immunisation, British Columbia, Canada, October 2013
We describe a case of vaccine-associated measles in a two-year-old patient from British Columbia, Canada, in October 2013, who received her first dose of measles-containing vaccine 37 days prior to onset of prodromal symptoms.
Identification of this delayed vaccine-associated case occurred in the context of an outbreak investigation of a measles cluster.
Therefore, the combination of classic measles symptoms, detection of measles vaccine virus and reactive measles IgM, and lack of evidence of an alternative illness explanation, were highly suggestive of measles vaccine-associated illness.
Millson D. Brother-to-sister transmission of measles after measles, mumps, and rubella immunisation. Lancet. 1989; 1(8632):271.
----------------- And how would the public even know if it is vaccine strain and not wild measles in an outbreak since they rarely test to see and would they even let the public know if it was?
Posted by Brussels (Member # 13480) on :
Whatever you guys want to do, just read lymenet in the last 10 years.
SO MANY people swear they fell sick AFTER a shot, either with lyme symptoms (appearing exactly after a vaccine), or with worsening of lyme symptoms to the point of no return (to many) that I wonder...
Gigi was an old lymenet member: she lost a baby 3 days after a vaccine shot: sudden infant death.
Too many parents SWEAR their babies died after a shot. Medical doctors always deny the relation, so you won't find any clue to vaccines in their reports of death.
Who shall we believe? Medical doctors or thousands of parents??
Would you really trust medical publications?
Most medical doctors deny we are sick with chronic lyme either!
Well, go figure who you trust: parents or doctors?
Papers will never say children die from vaccines. The doctors who write about such deaths do not admit any relation whatsoever, from start!
I'd rather have my child get measles than the vaccine of measles. Measles is just one more infection, among thousands. We had fought so much in the last decade. Infections are treatable, in my opinion, with different methods.
Vaccine damage is hardly treatable. You got to live the rest of your life with it. That is my opinion.
If I could come back in time, I wouldn't have given A SINGLE shot to my daughter. Possibly one shot after the age of 5. But nothing else.
Dr K is not for vaccines either. I'm pretty sure his daughter is not vaccinated (even though he can't say that publicly). But you can 'get' his view by his discourse.
Being a parent and deciding for our kids is very hard. Only parents of a chronically sick child know how much in on our shoulders.
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