Any Lyme doctors bringing this up? It seems to be the only one of its kind in the country so far..
I'm wondering if it could prove chronic Lyme infection??
Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
It appears they were invited speakers at the 2014 ILADS conference. Otherwise I've heard nothing about it that I can recall.
Posted by t9im (Member # 25489) on :
Hi mamalicious:
We used this lab back in July / August time frame. It did show borrelia burgdorferi dna in our daughters blood.
I met Dr. Lee back in October 14 at ILAD's and he is smart but I had a hard time understanding him, too technical for me to follow, I think one has to have a medical background to follow him).
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- "I'm wondering if it could prove chronic Lyme infection?? "
Well, the ice man - from 5,000 years ago had Bb in his body and they never considered that he was ill just that he had "had" lyme at some time.
Those who believe lyme cannot cause ongoing illness never will come around, even if one shows it in their body. There's that erroneous argument they'll use to say that it just means you were exposed and still discount your reports of ongoing illness.
I've given up the day where I used to try to convince anyone - to show them the truth even when shows on a test result. The "Post Lyme" camp will never be convinced of chronic infection. I don't think a DNA test will phase them at all.
If I have to convince someone, they are not well enough educated to be working with me on any level.
If someone has not previously been diagnosed with lyme by a LLMD or with other testing, it might be worth exploring the DNA test. I'd see what ILADS and also LymeDisease.org think of it.
Maybe get the DVD of the presentation that Tincup mentions. That ILADS invited the presenter says a great deal.
And, I do think any clarification in testing is good. It's just that "to convince" those who engineer even the current testing methods to ignore facts and are so against the very possibility of chronic infection is a very different matter. -
[ 02-26-2016, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- I've read all I can on this guy and not one author has really gotten into the effects that lyme likely had on his life. They focus on so many other things but not the lyme. This is the most mention of it.
- by Stephen S. Hall - National Geographic - November 2011
5,300 years
Ötzi
the Iceman the earliest known human infected by the bug that causes Lyme disease
he had been found . . . on the Italian side of the border with Austria
He grew up northeast of Bolzano, possibly in the Isarco River Valley, and spent his adulthood in the Venosta Valley.
Perhaps most surprising, researchers found the genetic footprint of bacteria known as Borrelia burgdorferi in his DNA—making the Iceman the earliest known human infected by the bug that causes Lyme disease.
Maybe get the DVD from the presentation Tincup mentions: 2014 ILADS conference
That ILADS invited them seems a big deal.
Still, my main question is if any test at all will convince those who don't want to admit that chronic lyme exists.
For those who do know it, a DNA test would not be required. Though, any improvement in testing is just going to be a good thing overall. -
Posted by Blymey919 (Member # 47424) on :
So well said Keebler!
I too have given up trying to convince those who are ignorant of Lyme & other tick-borne infections of the chronic & complicated nature of it all.
My husband tested negative for Lyme for decades, told his symptoms were 'stress related', MS, menangitis, arthritis and other things by a bunch of different physicians. He finally had cultures done proving he had Lyme in addition to some other tick-borne infections. This STILL didn't convince some doctors.
My husband & I took an interest in this story and watched a National Geographic special on the Iceman. Remember thinking WOW... the analysis of plant and pollen remnants on his person had much more interest paid than the curiously high percentage of foreign DNA which turned out to be Bb...
But then my whole world revolves around this highly evolved bacteria so maybe I'm just shortsighted.
It was even brought up that there was evidence of joint damage & significant tissue deteriation, plus he appears to have been ill some months before before he died.
When it was theorized that the Iceman had been murdered, my husband made the comment that perhaps the odd decisions and erratic path this guy took was due to Lyme brain...
Isn't it just as much of a valid conclusion to think that the Iceman was killed due to some actions of a perceived madman (with bugs in his brain)...?
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Yeah, the coverage of this has been very disappointing, indeed. Thanks for your and your husband's thoughts on this.
My theory is that his illness weakened him and he could not longer pull his own weight required of being one of the tribe.
I worry that "madman" is too often tied to some with lyme (I've never had any rage issues, etc. and most do not - the more we talk about that possible aspect the more others will categorize "insanity") however, yeah, erratic behavior due to various Bb processes could also have been involved.
I think he just became too weak, too ill and they decided he had to go. Even then he may have been perceived as lazy, eh? -
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
The "Iceman" had the "footprint" of Borrelia burgdorferi. It may have been a different variety of borrelia. There are many.
I think the wording of the article about the "Iceman" is vague. - Just my 2 cents...
Also, I don't know if Borrelia burgdorferi in ones blood means that one has the symptoms of Lyme Disease. I think there may be people with Borrelia burgdorferi DNA in their blood who may not develop illness from it. I'm not saying that chronic Lyme doesn't exist but I don't know if everyone who's DNA tests positive for Borrelia burgdorferi is ill. I would really like to know that.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
Relapsing fever borreliosis often occurs with severe bacteremia.[7] B. recurrentis is transmitted by the human body louse; no other animal reservoir of B. recurrentis is known. Lice that feed on infected humans acquire the Borrelia organisms that then multiply in the gut of the louse. When an infected louse feeds on an uninfected human, the organism gains access when the victim crushes the louse or scratches the area where the louse is feeding. B. recurrentis infects the person via mucous membranes and then invades the bloodstream.
Other tick-borne relapsing infections are acquired from other species, such as B. hermsii, B. parkeri, or B. miyamotoi,[8] which can be spread from rodents, and serve as a reservoir for the infection, via a tick vector. B. hermsii and B. recurrentis cause very similar diseases, although the disease associated with B. hermsii has more relapses and is responsible for more fatalities, while the disease caused by B. recurrentis has longer febrile and afebrile intervals and a longer incubation period.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
Not trying to be arguementitive... Just wanted to point out that the reference in the Iceman article is vague to me.
If I can't get a decent diagnosis - I don't see how they can diagnose someone who has been dead for 5000 years.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- sparkle,
They did a different kind of test on Ötzi - and likely weren't even looking for it but were smart enough to know it when they saw it.
Most labs today do all they can to obscure the facts with inferior tests and the IDSA's odd requirements further raise the odds for "not finding" lyme.
Even the best tests that the government allows are not as good as the test the Iceman got. The IDSA / CDC government liasons have gone out of way to make testing for lyme harder than anyone could ever dream possible.
Still, there are so many strains of Borellia and they test only for one. -
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
That's why I think it's misleading to say it was the "footprint" of Borrelia burgdorferi. What exactly does that mean?
The reason I bring this up is that I lived in a time when people didn't have Lyme Disease. It wasn't 5000 years ago, either. I think Lyme is more recent. I don't think it existed in the same way pre Plum Island Research Facility.
I think they toss these articles out to confuse the issue.
Does this matter? I don't know... People are still ill almost 50 years later.