Since tick borne co-infections ehrlichiosis & tularemia are known to cause anaphylactic shock after eating red meat. Isn't it logical that lyme, bartonella, or babesiosis being beaten by the immune system initially but setting off a hystamine cascade through the gut?
If so there's a giant difference between groups of chronically infected lyme patients & patients with an allergic reaction because of a short term lyme/co's infection.
I ask because there seems to be a subset of patients who bloat after basically eating anything. The bloat could be an allergic swelling. Triggering genetically mutations like MTHFR. Maybe an anaphylactic reaction going down through the gut, not up through the esophagus..
I ask because I'm seeing quite a few getting better on a simple low hystamine diet & antihistamines after yrs of regular lyme treatment failure.
Posted by spinning122 (Member # 42223) on :
Hi droid,
I definitely have chronic Lyme, as I was bitten by a tick when I was four years old, and wasn't treated until a couple years ago (29 now).
I realized about two years ago that I had become severely intolerant to an ever-growing list of foods, and more recently narrowed it down to all salicylates (read plants and herbs) which give me severe migraines, and of course foods high in histamines make me feel...less than optimal.
I know that whenever I am feeling extremely sick/toxic/whatever it is, I can lessen about 50% of that malaise by taking Benadryl.
I used to tell my llmd that I would take it to calm down my herx, and he would just shrug.
There's actually a whole subset of lyme sufferers who are completely zero carb because of food intolerances. Have you heard of The Anderson family who have eaten nothing but meat for 17+yrs? They started because the wife/mom Charlene was very ill with Lyme, and eating this way put her in remission.
You mentioned the bloat after eating anything, and I'm one of those people. It's gotten a lot better with careful diet, but it still happens from time to time. I was under the impression that this was some sort of SIBO/yeast problem?
Posted by Jordana (Member # 45305) on :
Since all I do all day is ciimb all over the internet asking it endless questions about this stuff I'd say it's totally logical.
I think it's Dr. H who added histamine intolerance to his MSIDS model. It's definitely a real thing and considering that a person with TBI has both massive changes in the immune system and then usually a longterm course of abx, it makes sense that the histamine system gets skewed as well.
it could just be a type of autoimmune disorder like so many others that can show up.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
I think Lyme can cause it, that is for sure. It can also cause Mast Cell Activation Disorder, which is closely related to salicylate sensitivity and histamine intolerance.
I am being tested for MCAD and I am sals sensitive and histamine intolerant, plus I have to eat foods low in oxalates.
Nothing left to eat .. so the Andersons have a good plan.
FODMAPS and SIBO (and yeast) are more likely to cause bloating than the sals and histamine... at least in my experience.
Posted by droid1226 (Member # 34930) on :
I'll look up that family. 50% better from a benadryl is pretty good.
I guess I've never eaten a lot of carbs to know I'm allergic to them but I know what to do now.
I'm sure it's a combo of histamine/yeast since carbs add to yeast.
Yes, Dr. H has allergy in MSIDS. Idk if it's specific to food.
I just wish I knew what biologically changes in the body that triggers the the excess histamine.
Missing enzyme? Genetics?
People develop a peanut allergy because of proteins in the peanut. There has to be a mechanism of action that changes with carbs relating to histamine.
Oxalates too? Do you get sick from spinach Lymetoo?
Posted by droid1226 (Member # 34930) on :
Got it. Sort of. It lowers levels of diamine oxidase which breaks down histamine in foods. There's all sorts of DAO enzyme supplements for sale.
It just so happens that there's a lot of the same high carb foods that are also high in histamine.
Posted by spinning122 (Member # 42223) on :
Yea I've tried those supplements but they didn't seem to make a difference for me.
Agreed about the high carb food high histamines thing, but these zero carbers literally are carnivores. What some of them start noticing is a huge sensitivity to even normal meat since the meat is usually aged before it hits store shelves, then it continues to form histamines if it sits in the fridge.
Honestly, I feel best when I'm fasting. Eating anything makes me react and its such a headache. I hate whatever Lyme&co triggered in me.
Posted by Jordana (Member # 45305) on :
Couple thoughts.
Starch is a pretty "dangerous" substance, because even in healthy people some percentage of it can leak through the gut wall and be persorbed into the bloodstream, causing a kind of low level sepsis. If the immune system is already confused then this is a good way to ramp up autoimmunity.
The same does not hold true for plain sugar, especially fruit sugar, since it's the fastest way anyone can get energy into the body to make ATP. Sugar free diets are antithyroid and can cause a lowering of metabolism -- if you're sick that's never good. However if the brain is damaged eating a ketogenic diet is one way to turn off the excitatory pathways connected to brain glucose metabolism.
Like you're saying, I don't think excess histamine is triggered necessarily; i just think that an overactive immune system is going to be worse at handling it.
But also - there is such a thing as tick borne meat allergy. I have no idea how that works at all but it probably has to do with the same kind of cytokine activation/molecular mimicry that happens when starches are persorbed; only this time with one of the amino acids.
spinning: It might not be an allergy -- it could be your pancreas or gallbladder if you have one or even your liver.
If antihistamines or DAO don't help there could be some other reason it's happening. Maybe revisit a gastro doc. Those guys really do their best.
Posted by Blymey919 (Member # 47424) on :
Last year a study conducted by Stanford School of Medicine researchers that loratadine, a common antihistamine, may kill Borrelia burgdorferi.
"The results of this new laboratory study show that loratadine (trade name: Claritin®) and specifically its metabolite, desloratadine, are able to prevent manganese (Mn) from entering the cell wall of the bacteria that causes Lyme disease, starving the bacteria and causing it to die in test tubes.
The antihistamine accomplishes this by inhibiting the bacteria’s transport system, BmtA (Borrelia metal transporter A).
Manganese is required for certain metabolic processes of Borrelia burgdorferi and also plays an important role in numerous biological processes in the human body.
Previous research shows that in general, bacteria scavenge the body for trace metals that circulate in the blood and have developed special adaptations on their cell walls to internalize these metals. These adaptations are called transport proteins, and BmtA is the specialized transport protein for Borrelia burgdorferi.
BmtA binds with manganese to bring it into the bacteria, and studies have shown that BmtA and manganese are required to make the bacteria harmful to the human body[i]"
Posted by bluelyme (Member # 47170) on :
Droid did you try the large amounts of clariten.?.any success with that? Also theory of gut flora making histamines and tbi causes all of the mast cells to drop therebye causing mcs and allergies to everything.. read there was thread on fmt but that takes a whole lotta love.lol
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Oh yes .. spinach is really bad for me. Very high in salicylates and extremely high in oxalates.
Nearly everyone would benefit from keeping an eye on the intake of oxalates. Much more damaging than you would think.
Carbs are not really the problem... it's the salicylates in vegetables and the high histamine levels in certain foods.
Yes, I'm sure I'm deficient in the enzymes needed to process the salicylates.
I supplement DAO for my histamine intolerance. I also take quercetin twice daily. Benadryl can be counter-productive in histamine intolerance. I don't think Lyme was the cause of mine, I am genetically pre-disposed.
I also supplement bifidus bacteria only for probiotics. It's good for people with high histamine.
Actually, most grains are not high histamine.
High histamine foods are anything fermented, spinach, avocado, chocolate, leftovers, pork, processed meat (even "healthy"), shellfish, wine, champagne, tomatoes, and a bunch of other seemingly random foods.
I ate a low histamine elimination diet, now I can have a high histamine food if it's paired up with anti-inflammatory or antihistamine foods.
I have a genetic DAO insufficiency. I also am homozygous for MTHFR. I think these two things made me more susceptible to getting so sick from Lyme and mold.
I do not have a candida problem, but certain foods do make me bloated, and if stress causes my histamine to get high, I will get bloated. I lost 6 pounds my first 36 hours on a low histamine diet. Clearly all bloat.
I do not do well at all on a low carb or paleo type diet.
As mentioned, you have to be careful with meat because it increases in histamine content (even cooked leftovers) as it ages. Even more so with fish. I only eat frozen fish up north, or very fresh caught when I'm in Florida (I spend 30% of my time there).
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- can't formulate thoughts but in case anyone might want to refer to this:
Topic: Meat Allergy from tick bite - reference links
Immune specifics & specific tick-meat allergy testing detailed here. -
Posted by droid1226 (Member # 34930) on :
Spinning, I joined that FB group & read all through stories. The health benefits for autoimmune diseases are endless. I've done low carb for yrs but never meat only. I've always included veggies which I would gladly eliminate.
Blue/blymey, Yes I did the claritin protocol I was up to 4/day before my liver enzymes shot up. I'd need over 20/day based on my weight.
Six, why can benadryl be counter productive? Good info.
Jordana, Can u explain what u mean about ketogenic brain damage? I ask cause I've only read good things about ketosis as it relates to the brain. I've also felt better neurologically when in ketosis, but I'd prefer to not do any brain damage.
Keebler, good links. Thanks.
Posted by spinning122 (Member # 42223) on :
Awesome droid There's another group within that group... search "Principia Borrelia"
I've also always felt best in ketosis. The only thing I worry about is kidney function...
Six & Tutu, thanks so much for your input. This is such a maze to work my way through.
Jordana, the last time I went to the gastro doc I was treated so poorly it left a bad taste in my mouth :/ The lady was there giving me the iBS (emphasis mine) diagnosis while rudely smacking her lips eating chocolate. Offered me some, then took it back quickly, sneering, "Oh you shouldn't"
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Antihistamines in general suppress the DAO enzyme...so I try my best to NOT take any.
Posted by Jordana (Member # 45305) on :
Oh, gross, spinning.
Find another doc. There are a lot of therapies for IBS under a doctor's care. For example Rifaxamin ( outrageously pricey without insurance), medical foods, drugs to coat the stomach, cyproheptadine, etc etc.
Honestly of all the specialists I've worked with these guys are the most "functional" when I've asked for help. I tried to fix my stomach using all kinds of internet advice for a year; finally ended up on one single drug -- cholestyramine! Stomach is miraculously better.
Posted by LisaK (Member # 41384) on :
this is interesting droid.
I can't read al lthe feedback here, but i agree with you.
I think there is so much more than 'take this and get better'.
I truly think having all this stuff made me allergic to so much food. pork especialy. I went to ER last time I ate bacon.
there is so much we just don't even know or realize about what and how this all does. amazing
Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
This being said, I carry antihistamine in my purse, both Benadryl and Pepcid because they work on different histamine receptors. But that is in case of a true allergy. I have food allergies. I'm pretty careful, so I haven't taken them in a while.
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There's another group within that group... search "Principia Borrelia"