Does anyone have and real world experience or familiar with any research that would explain why the timing of the Herx reaction would change when starting a different protocol?
For the past several years, any protocol change that was effective, had a herx about 3-5 days into the the new protocol.
After considerable improvement, recently started a new protocol to get rid of persisters, with three weeks off from the old protocol. After starting the new protocol, just had a significant herx 10 days in. Have not had a hard herx like that in a long time, and never had one anywhere near that long after starting.
Experiences and insights appreciated.
Posted by willbeatthis (Member # 31111) on :
Bob, This is only my two cents but after having lyme for years and the ability for it to morph into the different forms, it is my belief we can have many different life cycles going at one time- thus, the herx hits when you are able to kill what is available to be killed- not hidden in biofilm, morphed into cysts or persisters. That is the only thing that makes sense to me. To simply say after years of infection with pleomorphic bacteria it should be simple... I'm afraid I don't think we got that lucky. Depending how well the bacteria can evade the immune system and drugs well- that is the goal of the bacteria- and the result would be the entrenchment of multiple life-cycles going at once. Any thoughts?
Posted by willbeatthis (Member # 31111) on :
I actually was two plus years in when Dr. H could tell by herxing and symptoms(was on bicillin injections at the time)- there were many life-cycles going. Hang in there! Glad your making progress!
Posted by willbeatthis (Member # 31111) on :
I would love to hear others thoughts on this. I was never able to pulse- I wonder if this is why- the multiple life cycles of lyme. I understand with Co infecs- they multiply more rapidly. Thanks Bob for raising this question!
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- While, of course, whichever "bad" microbes in all their various forms and generations are being clobbered and how much the spew forth their toxic disapproval of said clobbering process, well, that can "color" a herxheimer in intensity or schedule.
Yet, totally unrelated to that, also a factor:
I think that the condition of the liver at that particular point in time, how the liver "receives" reacts or otherwise "greets" any new Rx also matter greatly. Your body's ability to make GLUTATHIONE is key.
Be sure acetaminophen is not a factor as that blocks glutathione in the liver and all cells of the body so the cells cannot expel their metabolic waste (or waste from infections).
Some Rx [and some combinations] are just harder on the liver than others, and even from one person to another. All these variables will affect how a herxheimer is experienced.
You might need an adjustment in the specific liver & kidney support supplements at various times along the way. And sometimes, certain "event" detox methods can be too much so more gentle support measures can bring relief.
LIVER & KIDNEY SUPPORT & and several HERXHEIMER support links, too.
in this set, somewhere is also detail about PORPHYRIA. It's a liver dysfunction and it can make some meds absolutely miserable to endure. -
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- When infections are clobbered and spew forth their toxic waste in displeasure, the CYTOKINE STORM is what makes one feel so bad.
And, yes, that's related to the liver health and its ability to manufacture glutathione. As well, in addition to liver herbs that can help the liver make glutathione, etc. . . . another approach to helping is
The herb, STINGING NETTLE may serve to compensate for the reaction by calming the the cytokine storm that is often part of a herx reaction. -
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Third key of the top considerations: your MAGNESIUM levels or the types of magnesium in your body might need some adjustment.
Many Rx deplete magnesium. Lyme and some other infections can deplete magn. too.
Magnesium is vital in helping the body move out toxic byproducts of infection. It can be life saving in that regard, actually.
Topic: MAGNESIUM - Informational Links set -
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- And the LYMPH system / pathway. That's another whole aspect. -
Posted by BobG (Member # 39642) on :
I think the difference may be between spirochete, round body, and biofilm forms.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- yeah. For sure. When biofilm agents are added that "melt" away at the biofilm coating around Bb
& / or
when anti-cystic Bb form measures are added (Flagyl . . . Grapefruit Seed Extract, etc.)
then more spirochetes can spew forth and they are never really happy campers when they are pushed like this. It is necessary, of course, yet - well - you know.
I hope whatever changes you can make to make it easier to tolerate will help.
Some things that also help - in addition to notes above about supporting glutathione: a massage but only to the degree that is comfortable (no deep pressure Swedish massage if it hurts), a cozy warm bath (never hot or never too long), low heat infrared sauna -- anything to gently ease along circulation and comfort.
Also to consider that when a protocol is changed, even if the Rx is mostly to address Bb spirochetes, the change might be more effective and therefore, a more pronounced herx.
I'm sending Glenda, the good witch with her magic wand to just cover you with some fairy dust (oh, wait, that's Tinkerbell!). Just don't let the flying monkeys carry you away, eh? -
Posted by willbeatthis (Member # 31111) on :