can someone please explain to me what this coinfection is and what are the symptoms? I have terrible air hunger, anxiety, sweating, feeling like my head is in a fog all the time, forgetting things all the time. are all these due to this coinfection and what is the treatment for it? thanks for any help. Oh can I also mention panic attacks, getting lost when driving and always having that feeling of flight/fear response
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Indeed, every one of your symptoms can be explained by any of the tick borne infections. It can be hard to separate them, though.
Babesia was certainly mixed in with lyme for me and I had all of what you describe. Not just getting lost when driving but actually forgetting how to drive, how to shift gears, what a red light even meant. Be careful and you might want to take break from driving for a while.
In case you might have been prescribed certain drugs to address what you describe - and most often regular doctor use ""psychiatric" drugs since they don't know about lyme . . .
I I was also so very much worse with Rx that was supposed to calm anxiety (Zanax, all the anti depressants nearly killed me - - and steroids, too, made it all worse -- be sure to avoid steroids for they can zoom anxiety to the moon and then bounce around the galaxy from there.
The worst was before I knew I had lyme, etc. It took me years to figure out I just could not tolerate any of those kinds of drugs that were supposed to take away my "psych" symptoms - at all. Once I found out this was not "psych" but infection based, I found better ways for me body.)
Some of those drugs are ototoxic and triggered / damaged the inner / middle ear which made vertigo and sensory issues worse. That, then, triggers the panic / anxiety as a natural physiological reaction.
Lyme / Babesia also targets the inner / middle ear and leads to sensory & balance issues which, in turn, trigger the adrenal fight or flight natural built in physiological response.
Do you have a LLMD?
If not, or until you can get in to a real one, one who is ILADS educated . . .
get the books on lyme and key coinfections by Stephen H. Buhner. find his website / blogs, too. He explains SO MUCH about how these infections work in our bodies as well as what we can do about it.
Know that - yes - absolutely - what you experience goes with lyme / babesia (sweating) . . .
while you sort out direct anti-infective treatment
ADRENAL SUPPORT is required, absolutely required, IMO. Start with
The Shocking Truth About Prescription Drugs, Medications, Chemicals and Herbals That Can (and Do) Damage Our Ears
By Neil Bauman, Ph.D.
. . . detailed listings of the ear-damaging side effects of 877 drugs, 35 herbals and 148 chemicals (798 pages). -
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- The toxicity from lyme / basesia, etc. can also trigger panic / anxiety due, even just to the toxins. Give anyone a certain amount of toxins and their body will go into a degree of shock. The adrenals will speed up to fight or flight and then the brain / sensory stuff gets all disoriented.
Also in addition to ADRENAL SUPPORT, while you sort out a direct treatment plan for infections, go ahead and get started on some kind of liver support.
MILK THISTLE or DANDELION capsules are the most common approach for starters.
LIVER & KIDNEY SUPPORT & and several HERXHEIMER support (to better tolerate treatment)
LINKS SET
Take liver support herbs a couple hours away from any Rx, though. As when the liver is "fed" these nutrients that help it work better, some Rx can be moved out of the body a little quicker.
To ensure that a therapeutic dose of Rx will be relatively level at most times, just separate out most herbal and nutrient supplements by a couple hours both directions of the clock. -
[ 02-22-2018, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Separate thread of yours, I see that you have found a doctor and that you " just started mephron and zith this past week for babesia"
Azithromycin is ototoxic. That can cause a lot of vertigo / sensory odd symptoms, too, where the body just feels uncertain of space even if not quite aware.
Some of the Rx used in treatment are ototoxic. It's hard to find a full protocol that does not include ototoxic drugs at all.
But that is why LIVER SUPPORT must - MUST - be on board. It may help protect the vestibular / inner/middle ear balance system to some degree.
And, still, some might not be able to tolerate zith. It can also affect the rhythm of some hearts and contribute to panic attacks in that way. Be mindful and convey to your doctor if you think you might need a different drug.
With ADRENAL & LIVER SUPPORT, though, it might be more manageable. Sometimes, the dose needs to be taken down some.
You say you are on mepron, too. I never had access to that for my babesia but I hear that it can be a rough & tumble ride.
Take care. -
Posted by lindadanis (Member # 51204) on :
thank you so much for all this information. Yes I do have lyme doctor and she has decreased the mepron down. she never mentions liver support or anything else other than drink lemon water and do eposon salt baths. bank 34 showed up on my lyme test, not sure what that means and babesia showed up positive with igenex at 40. what is adrenal support? she never mentioned that either.
Posted by lindadanis (Member # 51204) on :
Keebler, I forgot to mentioned that I take Ativan, similar drug to Xanax, for a year now. I was taking 3mg. per day and I weaned myself down to 1 1/2 a day now. I am wondering if Ativan is making me worse than better also but don't know how to get off of it safely. any suggestions. You have been a wealth of information and I appreciate it very much.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- lindadanis,
Yes, ativan can cause or otherwise exasperate the kind of effects you describe in some people. Many with lyme are more sensitive to the mood altering drugs (and more sensitive to chemicals in general).
If you have a LLMD, ask them if they have ideas. Also ask if they know a good LL ND. In some areas, LLMDs & LL NDs do have good working relationships and it's nice to have both on one's team, if possible.
The kind of doctor who would likely be best to help you gently and gradually transition from Ativan would be a LL ND - in part because if LL they would know about lyme and coinfections as well as the adrenal issues, etc. that lyme / TBD (tick borne disease) causes
& they would have other options that could help with symptom relief.
For those considering complementary support methods / or other avenues entirely:
Herbal Safety considerations & reference books; etc.
BOOKS - Links to many articles and books by holistic-minded LL doctors of various degrees who all have this basic approach in common:
knowing which methods offer assertive & direct impact, which are only support and which are both. And when to use what, how to combine, & when to step back.
You can compare and contrast many approaches with links to articles, books, methods . . . -
Posted by lindadanis (Member # 51204) on :
Keebler, I have a question: Like I said I am on zithromycin and Mepron and not sure if this is a herx or not, but my head feels so weird on these medications. I feel like I am floating, dizzy and more spaced out. Is this normal? How did you get rid of your babesia? You seem to be a huge source of information and I appreciate any help you can give me. I just feel messed up, I am assuming its herxing while on medication.
Posted by Nula (Member # 38409) on :
lindadanis,
I have babesia duncani. I've had it for 8 years now. I've had horrible times, I've had better times, but so far I've not been able to get rid of it.
I understand everything you're going through. I've had all the symptoms you have. Some of them, I still have. I am now treating myself with herbs, using Stephen Buhner's protocol. If you haven't already, you should read his book on Babesia (his others as well).
All I can tell you is not to give up. I felt horrible on babesia meds and do better with herbs. Other people are able to handle mepron and co. just fine.
I wish you all the best!!! Don't give up!
Posted by Nula (Member # 38409) on :
And yes, a feeling of floating, being dizzy and spaced out is typical for babesia duncani.
Posted by lindadanis (Member # 51204) on :
Nula, thank you so much for commenting. Why is this so hard to get rid of? Do you have lyme also? Were you on mepron and Zithromax? I am so much worse on these meds but not sure if its herxing or what. are the herbs helping at all? Where do you get them from?
Posted by lindadanis (Member # 51204) on :
do you have a lot of anxiety with this form of babesia because I do and that was my main symptom for past year. I also feel like I am somewhat disconnected from the world, such an odd feeling and so much worse when I started these meds. I'm scared honestly, I live alone and its very hard.
Posted by foxy loxy (Member # 47053) on :
my dr. says he is seeing babesia becomimg more and more resistant to drugs...
All I know is my air hunger never improved on ANY of the anti malarials I was on... but the Buhner herbs I am taking (so far) are.
NO help for my miserable head yet... Posted by lindadanis (Member # 51204) on :
where do I purchase the buhner herbs and does it come with instructions? thanks for posting
Posted by lookup (Member # 44574) on :
Foxy loxy, have looked into trying Japanese Knotweed yet? It's been helping my brain fog ...
Posted by Nula (Member # 38409) on :
Hi Linda,
Sorry you're feeling so horrible. I know what you're going through. I'm sorry to hear you live alone. That must be very scary. Do you have family or friends you can call when necessary? You really need support.
Yes, I've had anxiety, feeling disconnected from the world. I know each and every one of your symptoms. They are horrible and scary. I wish I could help you.
Babesia duncani is the worst babesia strain and the hardest to get rid of. Stephen Buhner explains it all very well in his book. It is the most extensive explanation of Babesia (they why, how, what to do etc.) you will ever read.
The brain fog is horrible, I know. It's scary and something people who have not experienced it will struggle to understand.
I believe that part of the reason why I'm not healthy at this point may be that I haven't been able yet to take all the herbs suggested by Stephen Buhner. I'm adding things slowly, watching my body and my reactions very carefully. It takes time.
I can tell you that I feel better on the herbs than I ever felt on meds. But that's just me. I'm not suggesting you stop your meds. That is something only you and your doctor can decide.
I'm a bit of a renegade. I dumped my LLMD and went at it alone. I felt I had nothing to lose. My body felt toxic. I was taking Minocyline (I have Lyme as well), Malarone (for the Babesia, never took Mepron) and Azythromycin at the same time. My body couldn't handle it. I couldn't get out of bed.
Here's a list of places that sell herbs Stephen Buhner recommends. But if I were you, I'd really buy his Babesia book.
The herb that is helping me the most is Cryptolepis. Maybe you could ask your doctor if she knows about it/prescribes it...
I wouldn't combine these herbs with allopathic meds. Some people do and I did, at one point, but felt uncomfortable. The herbal tinctures contain alcohol and that's just never a good mix with other medications.
So, all in all, I'd suggest you read up on it (slowly, whenever your brain allows). Don't try anything on your own as long as you're new to this and don't really know what you're doing ...
Sending positive vibes!
Nula
Posted by Nula (Member # 38409) on :
PS: The herbs don't really come with instructions. The bottles will tell you how many drops to take (e.g. 20-60 twice a day), but I wouldn't take them without having read Buhner's book(s).
Posted by foxy loxy (Member # 47053) on :
Hi Nula,
Yes, I have tried knotweed in the past. But I am thinking of trying it again with everything else.
I have this constant gnawing sickening nerve sensation in my head and brain that gets so bad at times I think I may not be ok.
Nobody seems to be able to help me with this and it never goes away completely though it gets better by times...
I am glad the herbs are helping you! I wish so much they would help my head. I even added in skullcap and chinese cat's claw to no avail..
Posted by lookup (Member # 44574) on :
foxy loxy - I wonder if Black Current (Ribes nigrum) Gemmotherapy (plant stem cells) might help as it is an NON- steroidal anti-inflammatory. Just a thought. You'd have to do some reading on it to see if it fits your case.
Posted by foxy loxy (Member # 47053) on :
hey lookup, I am quite desperate and willing to try just about anything! I will look into it!!
Thanks a million! Posted by lookup (Member # 44574) on :
foxy loxy...I did a little looking around and the Black Current would not fit your case because your cortisol is probably high. So that's a no-go.
Fig (Ficus carica) and Lime (Tilia tomentosa) would fit the anxiety better. Fig has an affinity for the stomach and anxiety.
What about the herb Butterbur for your head? Maybe check into that instead of the Black Current. Buhner likes it for head pain.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- SCURVY?
Are you getting enough Citrus Fruit -- &/ or Vitamin C.
SCURVY is a risk for many who take antibiotics who do not consume citrus fruits because of the concern about candida.
Be certain your Vitamin C intake in supplement has always been consistently ample.
If it has not, if not now, you could have scurvy, a Vitamin C deficiency that has serious consequences and involved an server inability to handle stress. The physiology of the body can nearly - or literally - shut down. All systems can be affected.
Severe fatigue and inability to handle stress are key signs.
To correct the amount has to be to a certain level and often during the day. It can take a while to correct. Adrenal support is also "required" for anyone on a "Scurvy correction" protocol. -
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
Vitamin C Basics - by Suzanne Humphries, MD. Internist and Nephrologist
One-hour lecture Feb. 24, 2015
she says stay away from Calcium formulas.
she recommends: NutriBIotic Sodium Ascorbate
A few folks can have a genetic "allergy" to Vitamin C in certain forms. I had all those links saved as I've been researching scurvy for myself (and it makes SO much sense)
but I think I must have determined that the genetic issue did not affect me due to my genetic heritage and history with being okay with C in the past.
But this genetic marker is vital to know about so if you've had trouble with Vit. C, you can research just from key words and find out more - there is a test for it.
My mouth has for decades been too irritated by citrus fruits and - foolishly - thought other fruits or antioxidants might cover all the bases. Seems I was wrong about that. -
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Last night I stumbled upon this headline and immediately knew I was onto to something regarding my own severe reaction to sensory surprises - and also regarding near death feeling of fatigue going way back in time.
I never grew up with citrus fruit other than for Sunday breakfast. We had apples around but they are not the same in this regard. Citrus matters.
Still, many fresh veggies, especially sweet RED bell peppers and broccoli contain some vitamin C. But, if deficient, supplements would be necessary.
. . . By this stage in the disease, collagen synthesis has been disrupted, leading to the easy bleeding and also a drop in blood pressure, as patients cannot induce peripheral vasoconstriction in response to adrenergic stimuli.
The lack of an appropriate adrenergic response is felt to be the most common cause for sudden death in scurvy . . . .
[poster's note: this sort of adrenergic response - POTS, NMH, adrenal exhaustion, etc. - all this is seen for many with lyme. The question: is it always - just - from the infections?
In your case, indeed BABESIA is a mighty force and one to have high respect. And, yes, babesia can make red blood cells just nearly disappear, it seems. But there could be more to it. And there may be more required for success.
Might SCURVY be a big piece of the puzzle in such patients?
I clearly think so.] -
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- G6PDD
is the deficiency that makes taking vitamin C very dangerous. It's rare, yet vital to consider.
But, for anyone who even thinks scurvy might be involved, this is so urgent to move on. Something MUST be done if scurvy is in the mix.
Scurvy -
Posted by foxy loxy (Member # 47053) on :
yes lookup... I saw the same thing when I checked into it. I will look into the other things you mentioned!
Sometimes I wonder what an antidepressant would do? I know lorazepam, xanex, and valium didn't help my head symptoms.. just made me sleepy and relaxed.
Posted by lookup (Member # 44574) on :
Green Gardens Gold is also a good one I hear.
Posted by foxy loxy (Member # 47053) on :
Hmmm, thanks lookup! I have thought of CBD before. The only thing that scares me is that there is some evidence that it is hard on your memory, and mine isn't very good at all...
But, if it would stop this horrible sick pressure sensation, I wouldn't be too stubborn!
Have you ever tried it?
Posted by lookup (Member # 44574) on :
I did last night (GGG)! You know how the closet full of everything is? I forgot I bought that stuff and saw it when I was rummaging around in a pile of supps. Thought I would try a squirt.
Verrry relaxing and I could feel it calming down the insides of my veins which I did not know had any other sensation other than normal. Hmmm...
Posted by foxy loxy (Member # 47053) on :
lol...Did it make you feel fuzzy? As in brain foggy?
Posted by lookup (Member # 44574) on :
A little bit. But if it could help your suffering it might be worth a try.
What we need to figure out is - how is this CBD oil detoxed? Once we figure that out then we support that pathway and it could then be used without a fuzzy brain! I'll check it out.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Edited to add: you asked how CBD oil is "detoxed"
Just realized you might mean what metabolic pathway does it use in the body / liver?
I don't know yet since it would be such a tiny bit you'd take, just drops under the tongue or in butter . . . I'm thinking that it might not be something like a stronger Rx that uses, say one of the Cytochrome P-450 metabolic / liver pathways that can be so very stressed for those with lyme.
Good question, though, for those with liver processing issues.
== my original thought:
I don't know that you would even need to "detox" CBD oil if it falls under the nutrient category, taken as just a few drops of oil - organic, of course.
Always, only - organic and even then from certified grower to be certain of the antifungals they usually need to be used with any cannabis, well, that they fall within the safe bounds.
Mold / Fungi is a huge problem with growing marijuana. It's often indoors, and requires so much water that antifungal measures are required.
Find out exactly what chemicals they use on their plants. They are required to have that information. Even organic cannabis, even organic CBD is required to have that detail.
All such plants require some kind of treatments during growth.
Also be mindful of expiration dates and where it should be kept in the house so it does not spoil (cool place, fridge?)
Any old oils can be trouble, even our cooking oils. -
[ 03-02-2018, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Be sure to do a Google search for:
pesticides in marijuana -
Posted by lookup (Member # 44574) on :
quote:Originally posted by Keebler: -
Just realized you might mean what metabolic pathway does it use in the body / liver?
-
Yes, I should have said metabolic pathway. Thanks for clarifying. Good point about the mold and being organic! Because, maybe the fuzzy head could be from mold toxins...although I don't seem to be sensitive to mold.
Posted by Brucesmom (Member # 51314) on :
quote:Originally posted by lindadanis: can someone please explain to me what this coinfection is and what are the symptoms? I have terrible air hunger, anxiety, sweating, feeling like my head is in a fog all the time, forgetting things all the time. are all these due to this coinfection and what is the treatment for it? thanks for any help. Oh can I also mention panic attacks, getting lost when driving and always having that feeling of flight/fear response
Omg, that’s my son. He describes the feeling of dread. Like going to the principals office. He has started to forget steps and he can’t drive because he can’t remember what comes next. He really has over sensitivity to crowds and gets tired quickly. He also got lost in the mall. He didn’t remember what mall he was in. I’m sorry you’re going through this, too.
Posted by lindadanis (Member # 51204) on :
does your son have lyme or babesia and if so, what is he taking? I am so sorry, it is terrible.
Posted by BobG (Member # 39642) on :
Brucesmom, has your son always been like that? If not sure sounds related to Lyme and/or co-infections. Most have co-infections. Thank god you found this board. Most kid's end up having their lives destroyed.
Posted by BobG (Member # 39642) on :
PS. That was our kid. Thank god for antibiotics.
Posted by lindadanis (Member # 51204) on :
that is why I wrote my symptoms, they are so weird and make me so nervous, how did your son get rid of this and was it lyme or babesia? Please private message me with your daughter's name as we both live in Mass. thanks so much
Posted by lindadanis (Member # 51204) on :
sorry I meant to say doctor's name not daughter's name.
Posted by mlg (Member # 35383) on :
Babesia like organism. Motherwort herb is good for anxiety. Find a good LLMD and psychiatrist LLMD. Buhner is good.
Mepron with Zithromax was always on rotating herbs artemisinin then rotated crypto. After specifically treated for Babesia for 8 months I did Dr C antipatasitic rotation then Dr K rotating anti-parasitic rotation. You need heparin or Bolouke to thin out the biofilm. I juiced some days, probiotics, raw garlic swallowed in capsules, lemon water some days in the morning, some mornings coconut water, probiotics everyday. You need a good LLMD and combination of ND or DAN! Doctor or detox yourself with juicing castor oil packs, infrared sauna, PEMF. I also found an LLMD psychiatrist that helped with thyroid medicine. The thyroid medicine helped with fatigue. Maintenanced with oil of oregano afterwards. Believe it could be babesia like organism and other co-infections.
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