I have chronic Lyme for past 6 yrs has anyone tried perfect origins liver detox- or the KETO diet??
My LLMD isn't a big fan of Keto
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- The either or - choice confuses me. Liver support is vital no matter what you do, always. I shy away from any kind of "detox" product, normally and go for solid and steady "support"
See the "Liver Support" Links in a post below.
-----------------
This has turned into what I think is a proper reference resource ( even if not concisely organized).
I hope this helps as you explore what this approach may provide to your enjoyment of life:
KETOGENIC & LOW CARB / HIGH FAT Lifestyle
LINKS - REFERENCE SET
For ketogenic / LCHF there's a wonderful documentary at
Netfllix, Amazon & Vudu and on DVD, efen at many libraries to loan out - or buy from various sites.
I've been on a well formulated ketogenic diet for 10 months. My aim is for seizure management so I do adhere strictly to no more than 20 grams total carbohydrates per day. Every Day.
There are no days off if you want to go ketogenic - there is science to this and that's good. A few slips ups at the beginning won't harm you but it will not allow for the body to be in ketosis. Still, we are all human.
Once simple sugars are out of the way, there really is no craving if the plan is well formulated. And that's one aspect that makes it so workable.
It's easy for me. The food you choose can be delicious and filling. There is a lot of variety when one plans well.
Best if you cook your own food, though I find far less cooking & cleanup since my food is focused. . Eating out is very tricky to know what's really in the food though it is possible with forethought.
It is not a treatment for lyme, however, it can certainly help in - oh - so very many ways, in my experience.
You might ask your LLMD why he's not keen on a ketogenic approach. There are many reasons but often, they just don't have the training in it and it can seem extreme when it's not done with enough education (for either doctor or patient).
Your LLMD might not be "allowed" to recommend this, either. There is great push-back with some of the doctors who do this, though I hope when those who do come out in the open, it will allow freedom for more doctors.
The key govt and medical assoc. are generally against this due to the big money in food industry and pharmaceuticals.
Not sure what draws you to a ketogenic diet. Usually, it's a good choice for those with insulin resistance or Type 2 Diabetes, pre-diabetes or other health issues.
If you take any diabetes medication, or blood pressure meds, it's important to have these monitored by a doctor who knows all about this as, often, those on either LCHF or ketogenic diet will require changes in these meds, even from day one.
The Virta Health website has more detail on this and the film, The Magic Pill, also shows patients going through the Rx changes (often able to lower or stop over time).
As you mention concern for your liver, one aspect of a ketogenic diet that really helps is avoiding all sugar, and also fruit. Fruit is very hard on the liver. Avoidance, therefore, helpful.
The state of ketosis, if done on a proper and well-formulated plan, can also help the liver in various ways. And it helps the brain, too.
Occasionally, 1/3 cup of dark berries might be okay at the end of meal but they still have to be figured in and will take the place of a lower carb green veg.
First, off, it takes a lot of education before embarking on such a plan. A lot. And it's worth it but just know that it's not just something anyone can just jump into without first doing some homework.
It's probably best to first go "LCHF" that's low carb / high fat / moderate protein with REAL FOODS, not processed products or even trying to create any kind of desserts or snack. There is no snacking, usually.
Do not attempt to go low carb & low fat. That can be dangerous. Fat is an essential part of the LCHF or Ketogenic plans.
Nina Teicholz' book: The Big FAT Surprise is excellent in explaining "why meat, butter & cheese" are healthy. Cheese is limited on a ketogenic diet, though it can certainly be a nice element.
Generally, no grains, legumes or any processed foods. Again, do not drop to low carb unless you also have the right proportion of fat & protein.
Ketogenic limits one to 20 grams of total - total - carbohydrates per day, confined to one or two meals.
That's about 3 cups of certain, mostly green or crucifererous *sp?). veggies with meat, eggs, & fats set at a certain percentage.
Both LCHF and Ketogenic is moderate protein, not high.
LCHF can include more carbs, still count at total - perhaps starting out with 50, 40, or even 30. Going higher than 50 grams of carbs would no longer be considered low carb, though.
If you want to achieve ketosis, though, for most, 20 grams total carbs per day is the limit.
As fats are high, hunger really is not an issue. And,. for me, the good meats, eggs, also help me feel satisfied.
Being sure exactly what kind of fats is vital. For instance, no corn oil, no canola oil, no seed or vegetable oils (other than for olive oil . . . and animal fats re good, best if grass fed and from ruminants. . . some nuts okay and nice, but not all and not much as they can be high carb).
Fortunately, there are good & proper websites and professional lectures to learn more. Books, too.
If you are up for learning more (or if you have already) . . . find a doctor who has completed the training set by one or more of these doctors:
Virta Health website: Dr. Sarah Hallberg or Dr. Stephen Phinney
Duke - Dr. Eric Westman & HEAL clinics -- see his lectures at YouTube (as for all those I list here, too)
Dr. Timothy Noakes - the Noakes Foundation has certified classes for doctors who want to guide either Ketogenic or Low Carb / High Fat approaches.
Dr. Jeff Gerber
Dr. Jason Fung also explores two meals a day and other kinds of fasting to help reset.
The "Diet Doctor" and "the Diet Doctor Podcasts" - two different doctors with different kinds of videos.
Organizations that have lectures from conferences posted at YouTube:
Low Carb Down Under
LowCarbUSA - their site has a listing for doctors who are training in this approach.
KetoFest (with some city names after it for different seasons) . . . by 2 Keto Dudes -- excellent interviews on their podcast and the KetoFest events have great speakers, though, some presentations can go ga-ga on how to create desserts, be very, very careful with anything sweet for the first many months, even if stevia. It can trigger the brain's addictive center, just like sugar can.
& the wonderful Dr. David Unwin has excellent - just excellent - presentations you can find at YouTube as well.
For seizure management: The Charlie Foundation website - they have various ways children or adults can organize their food plans with percentage of fats, protein, to carbs. -
[ 03-19-2019, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
Green Tea Extract is potentially a problem for anyone with neuro-excitability issues or adrenal fatigue. It can be far too stimulating.
The approach to have a "fat burning" ingredient really bothers me.
There are several other things stated at this site that I just don't agree with but I don't want to get into that. Even the name, though, bothers me with LivLean.
The liver support thread above has lots of good detail, though. -
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Some links for you:
Re: Virta Health's findings on Reversing Diabetes with
Low Carb High Fat / Nutritional Ketogenic Diet
It's rare that a media article gets it so right. They do have a couple misconceptions here but those would be cleared up a someone learns more from the experts in the field.
The Real Meal Revolution: The Radical, Sustainable Approach to Healthy Eating – May 17, 2016
By Dr. Timothy Noakes, & Jonno Proudfoot
& companion book with over 300 recipes, more detail::
The Real Meal Revolution 2.0: The upgrade to the radical, sustainable approach to healthy eating that has taken the world by storm – September 26, 2017
Diet Doctor Podcasts - excellent interviews with the real experts in this field
Detail regarding CARDIAC & LIPIDS:
Dr. /Bret Scher from link just above this,
& see the websites and YouTube presentations of
Dr. Dave Feldman (Cholesterol Code)
&
Ivor Cummins (The Fat Emperor) - especially find his talks on the CALCIUM CARDIAC SCAN
--
My note: do not listen / watch the Dr. Oz segment on "keto" - it's not only presented in a terrible fashion, it's wrong about some things and misleading about others. It's a sad circus act and that kind of presentation opens the door for all kinds of other circus acts and tricks.
Dr. Oz is absolutely not educated about the full scope of this. He treats it like a fad, something you can just go "do" today. It requires some hours of study first, though it can be easy once the basics are learned.
The LCHF / Ketogenic approach is a serious field of study and I suggest not watching popular TV docs or personalities at all.
Get information from the doctors listed in all the posts above & below and then from those who also present alongside them at conferences by organizations also listed in posts above. -
[ 03-24-2019, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- While the links in all the posts above may be a bit overwhelming, I'm concerned that anyone interested get the correct information from the top experts.
I invite others to post good links, too, just not the run-of-the-mill "fad" stuff, please.
There are a few good names I've left off of this but you will likely find more good ones as you proceed.
I find this kind of learning very stimulating and rewarding. but then I am looking to save my life - and avoid diabetes, maybe alzheimer's and a nursing home, too.
While there may be a time I transition from ketogenic up a few carbs to LCHF, I cannot imagine a time when I would ever go back. This is a life style that has wiggle room and that I am sure can fit me for a life time.
This thread can serve as your study-guide & reference page as you explore whether this might be right for you. The Virta Health & also Duke's Dr. Eric Westman are the first places to look at.
As for all the interviews / lectures, I am glad I can stream YouTube on my TV with ROKU . . . I could tip back in my ergonomic recliner with a notebook and watch about two lectures a day.
Note that once you start watching "keto" videos, all kinds of others with that name will pop up. Be very focused not to click onto just any. Some have major errors and treat "keto" like some fad or a way for the poster to make millions selling junk food under the "keto" name.
Now, especially for kids with diabetes, there are some good snack or dessert products that can be figured in.
For those with weight loss mindfulness, I really suggest avoiding all sweet tastes. But for kids who just want to fit in at a Birthday Party - there are some options. But the products out there can be a mine-field.
The Charlie Foundation, though geared more toward seizure management, has some great ideas for a little something sweet for kids and teens no matter why they might be LCHF or Ketogenic.
I always used the term "ketogenic" and not "keto" when talking with anyone, especially doctors. And even add "nutritional ketosis" as a clarifying term.
Realize that doctors, dietitians and some nutritionists are still geared to the terribly dangerous FDA Food Pyramid. some are required to follow the erroneous thinking about saturated fats and cholesterol, even though proven wrong now.
Nina Teicholz & Gary Taubes have been key in this organization
NUTRITION COALITION - For Dietary Policy Based on Rigorous Science . . . working to change the food pyramid as schools, nursing homes, hospitals generally are forced to comply.
there is one hospital in either VA or W. VA that has LCHF meal plans. They've had amazing success. Dr. Robb Wolf, Google search: Robb Wolf, LCHF hospital
&
If you can obtain a glucose test kit, that is great. It really helped me see how certain foods affected my blood glucose 60, 90 + 120 minutes AFTER ingesting.
When starting out, this really helps keep one on the "straight & narrow" when you can see with your own eyes where your BG readings are. If high after a meal, that will prevent ketosis, big time.
I don't have a doctor, haven't for years. But since I'm not on any medication, after about ten hours of lectures and reading, I was able to start.
Having been gluten free for decades really helped.
What hurt: thinking that the "glycemic index" provided me with correct facts. That is very bad and I wish I had known years ago it's a trap.
(sorry, editing in some thoughts and that throws off the flow)
A keto tester in combo would be nice but I've not been able to afford that. I borrowed the tester I used for a couple months.
You can buy these things without a prescription, though if you have pre-diabetes, some doctors will write a script to help if insurance might cover the cost.
[ 03-19-2019, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Other conversational video bloggers whom are first, "correct" in this area and also just excellent and experienced:
* "Keto Christina"
- she has training in this approach, is certified, very personable. She has both a website full of great detail and also YouTube short clips.
the only caution is that, if you see her "shopping hauls" now, after she's lost a hundred pounds, she does include a 90% dark chocolate, a little bit.
yet, some of her earlier blogs stress avoiding sweets, and "fake" desserts so as not to trigger cravings. Starting out, this seems best for most. Though each person is different in the ways they formulate their plan a bit.
Good: she points out that some people can't do many veggies at all. She is not the only one and I find this true as well.
* "Dr. Eric Berg"
Really good detail, very valuable short clips
- though his push for 7 cups of veggies a day can be misinterpreted and that much of some veggies can prevent ketosis if it goes over 20 grams a day.
He means at least 4 of those cups to be loose leafy salad greens which have very few carbs. Mostly to get necessary magnesium & potassium in diet.
Mg & K must be carefully included in any LCHF / Keto plan.
But some people simply cannot do that many veggies. Some find they can do barely any.
I do better with Spirulina & Chlorella for my green nutrients.
[And - even for those who are finding they might need to eliminate all but meat for a while.
See the presentation of L. Amber O'Hearn at KetoFest 2018 for her excellent charts on nutrients in meat and other considerations. She has many presentations but this is her best:
Even for those who get all their veggies, it's good to see her research charts & hear her journey.
As for the Fiber question / gut health
* Dr. Paul Mason
addresses this in excellent fashion at the Low Carb Down Under YouTube presentations. Actually, his study review show that very often, cutting out all produce has helped many eliminate bowel issues . . . and the microbiome still does just fine:
I'm not pushing an all meat approach (and most certainly never, ever suggest excessive amounts), yet, it's good to keep open eyes for a percent of the population who may have trouble with veggies.
* Dr. Georgia Eades - also top in her looks at the science of why some suffer with plants as she certainly did.
Google search: Dr. Georgia Eades, plants
The matter of oxalates & lectins are just part of what to consider if one has digestive issues.
Bone broth also helps with the minerals and electrolytes.
. And at least 5 grams of sea salt a day, spread out, is vital, too, though good to have an educated doctor for individuals' questions on this if on certain meds or have certain conditions.
(Shock) all that media medical advice to be low salt is not correct for most.
With produce, be careful to check an OXALATE list first. Some are very high oxalates and can cause pain and damage anywhere in the body for some.
more about oxalates, search: "Sally K. Norton" oxalates
Excellent short clips. I've all his videos to be spot on, always.
Dr. Berry also often comments on what's in the news regarding the bad headlines and corrects it for the viewer.
Dr. Berg also usually addresses the "bad news" releases and corrects it. It's good to see both Dr. Berg & Dr. Berry's segments. They are short and to the point with so many questions answered.
AVOID, IMO:
Keto Connect - for as very nice as these two are, with very few exceptions about how to maybe cook a meal of meat and veggie . . . most of their videos are about the flawed notion of having dessert - lots and lots of desserts in great quantities they cook and present the final version.
Whereas, if they showed one serving - the reality of it - and explain that if that is consume, then one must then omit a key vegetable to make the carbs fit, that might be tolerable.
They use a ton of artificial sweeteners in their desserts, too.
They do offer lots - and lots - of reviews & comparison of processed packaged "keto" products.
With few exceptions of kids or travel, best to avoid these kinds of things.
It's best to not even look at sweets - don't let the brain "go there" so as to not trigger cravings. After a few weeks, any cravings should diminish greatly.
Do not be tempted. Later on, you might be able to include just a little bit of 90% or 93% Dark Chocolate. Right now, those carbs need to be taken up with good veggies that are low oxalate and low lectin.
or a 1/3 cup of berries with unsweetened real organic whipping cream (zero carbs, no added stuff) for a treat.
Cravings will stop after the food is avoided for a while. And magnesium can also help decrease cravings.
I did best when finally saying goodbye to sweet tastes, though. Blue Cheese became my Christmas and Birthday treats after a meal. Better for my brain chemistry.
Improvements of note, early on:
One thing from nearly day 2 o 3: the tips of my fingers were not like needles when I typed. This amazed me. Now, even typing all this, my arrth. joints aren't happy but my finger tips are working with me.
So, I knew right away, something great was taking place for my very low start.
My brain seems better - though there will still be typos here that I may be too tired to correct and my endurance is still marginal. But noise around my apt. is my biggest stress and just exhausting so I'm not the best measure.
What seemed worse, but then corrected when I got on board with sea salt, minerals & electrolytes. At first, my vision was blurry. I was dehydrated - as happens for just about all in the first few weeks / months. Being dehydrated can cause blurry vision.
Salted bone broth helped correct that.
"Keto Christina" website / video blogs will address many common questions and concerns.
Virta Health website also has great FAQ. I'd start there.
* Nora Gedgaudas - also excellent presentations
* KetoFest & also KetoCon both good conferences with important presentations that are put on one or more times per year in different locations. -
[ 03-24-2019, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by lightfoot (Member # 2536) on :
I agree with Keebler, a ketogenic eating plan is not a liver detox. However, once the plan is implemented I believe it benefits all systems.
I have been using the ketogenic diet for about four years. No, it doesn't cure Lyme/Co but IMO diet is the first priority in treatment. That's been my experience over the years.
I would not trade the clarity of mind, energy and well being that keto provides. Cooking is made very simple unless you want to create 'dishes'. I reserve a few keto 'dishes' for special occasions.
Keebler has outlined a regular study guide in this thread! I think all bases are covered.
There are excellent resources here if your doctor has the time or interest to pursue it. As far as doctors go, I have found I am my own best doctor when it comes to a way of eating.
It's amazing what you'll learn. Good luck!
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Glad to see that Lightfoot has shone some good, - uh - light on the topic.
Again, while there is a lot of detail here to unpack, I just wanted to be sure you had the best experts listed for reference to copy & paste to your study file.
This really is very easy after the first few steps. Much less cooking and cleanup and the food really does have me feeling better and more satisfied. I never have the kinds of hypoglycemic drops like I used to have.
And, from the information received in my home blood sugar testing for a couple months - also good that my body is no longer taken for dangerous high glucose rides.
For whatever reason, whether you decide to embark on a nutrition path that is a nutritional ketogenic plan, one that is low carb with healthy fats, or one that is tailored to your needs -
- perhaps in increments of how you make changes -
I hope as spring springs, the links above offer biological and culinary guidance. I hope you can feel more comfortable in whatever ways you need.
--
WASHING UP: Do not put any kind or any amount of excess fat down the drain. Oils / fats that are good for us are not good for the cold drains. Costly clogs in the household drain or sewer lines can result.
It really needs to be enjoyed with one's meal to get the full nutrient experience - or when cooking larger portions, store with the meat in fridge / freezer. Bacon fat: cool and saved in a glass jar in the fridge to enjoy with future meals.
While not about ketogenic diets, this reminds me to caution also against flushing any kind of "wipe" down the toilet. Even if they say they are flushable, they are not. These are causing terrible clogs, costly to everyone and damaging to some pipes down the line. -
[ 03-26-2019, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Finding a provider
While LCHF and Ketogenic plans can be easy for some, especially if they are not on any medications for blood glucose or blood pressure -- for those who are, how to a provider of some kind:
One of the links in this group is posted way above. There are a few more organizations listed here that list doctors, too:
How to find a low-carb and keto-friendly doctor - several good links
Update March 19, 2019
By Dr. Andreas Eenfeldt is a Swedish medical doctor specialized in family medicine. He is the founder and CEO of Diet Doctor.
- Also read through the reader comments as some other names are added in the comment section by impressed patients. Of course, call the provider's office to confirm and kindly ask about their level of knowledge & their training, etc. to help improve chances of a good fit. -
Posted by lightfoot (Member # 2536) on :
Hi Keebler!
Yes and I'd also like to shine light on the grease/oil/fat issue. I will try not to put my foot in my mouth!!!
NOT down the drain! We wipe it out thoroughly with a paper towel before washing. We use cast iron so we just add water, eat our meal and by the time we wash it, it's easy as pie, water only.
Ditto to the The flushing of so called flushable wipes!!
If one isn't thinking about the municipal system that's one thing BUT these issues can and will affect our own personal plumbing!!
Posted by Puterputz (Member # 11522) on :
quote:Originally posted by Keebler: - The either or - choice confuses me. Liver support is vital no matter what you do, always. I shy away from any kind of "detox" product, normally and go for solid and steady "support"
See the "Liver Support" Links in a post below.
-----------------
This has turned into what I think is a proper reference resource ( even if not concisely organized).
I hope this helps as you explore what this approach may provide to your enjoyment of life:
KETOGENIC & LOW CARB / HIGH FAT Lifestyle
LINKS - REFERENCE SET
For ketogenic / LCHF there's a wonderful documentary at
Netfllix, Amazon & Vudu and on DVD, efen at many libraries to loan out - or buy from various sites.
- Thanks, Peterputz, for bringing up this thread. I hope it is serving as a nice set of references for anyone interested.
Affordable testing strips - and glucometer.
Why I think every home should have a glucometer:
To see where - anyone - is & how certain foods affect glucose levels. The idea is to keep glucose fairly level. Spikes can cause damage not just from the glucose but, actually, also by excessive insulin surges. Too much insulin can be toxic.
Wanted to share news about a good home glucose meter / glucometer - VERY affordable - as are the test strips.
And from the "tests" of foods like I did several months ago when a friend loaned me / gave me some strips, this is coming right in line to my findings then. I do find them reputable.
I got one about 2 weeks ago and find it easy to use. No prescription required. One can also find this at Amazon.com
While they offer a free "membership" and mailings every 3 months, that is more for the customer's convenience.
It is possible to buy supplies not on the 3-month delivery plan.
will share more notes later on.
DELETING my suggestion for a specific meter.
UPDATE on 5-14-19:
Sorry - I no longer recommend the Diathrive glucose meter. I have found it to be terribly inaccurate. Just borrowed a friend's One Touch Ultra 2 for comparison.
The numbers differ an average of 16 points with same time, side-by-side comparison. Sometimes 5 points different, twice about 25 points different.
The OneTouch Ultra2 is one I would trust (but can't afford to get one of my own).
It's the Diathrive meter that I can't trust. Even repeat tests in the same minute on my meter are sometimes wildly off.
I had not been testing that much so I did not notice it so much but did question how my glucose would often be.
After my series of 5 comparison tests with the two different meters yesterday, I tried calling Diathrive today. Can't get through. Even their online chat is not "on" right now.
I will contact them but - after also going to Amazon and seeing some new reviews for this kit others have bought since my purchase, some are having the same experience with inaccuracies.
The thing is, that unless someone has another brand meter to compare, they won't know. And, well, if we could afford a top brand meter, we would not have found this deep discount one.
Now, all meters can be a few points off, there is even "allowed" a range of 15% points to be "off" but what I've found is not suitable.
Sorry I recommended Diathrive and hope no one got one upon my recommendation. -
-
[ 05-14-2019, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by MattH (Member # 30846) on :
I started my second round of the Keto diet about 10 days ago. Dr R formally of Seattle likes Paleo but I need to go a little further to get the benefits of this type of diet. I am doing intermittent fasting from 8pm to 12noon 5 days a week.
I lost 14 lbs the first time and then gained 4 pounds back due to work and travel. So I started again and am below where I ended up during last November's keto. I will do another two or three weeks and reassess.
I also started Live 02 sessions twice a week and will see if this also helps with inflammation. Felt great after the first session and a bit more tired after the second but the second was a bit harder.