TSH 2.33 range .40-4.0 Free T3 2.5 range 1.8-4.2 Free T4 1.10 range .89-1.76
note Dr did not believe in running Rt3 --------------------------------
July
Thyroid Results off of all Thyroid medication (3 )
TSH 3rd gen- 1.83 range .40-4.50
T3 Free 240 range 230-420
T4 free 1.2 (.8-1.8)
T 3 Reverse 46 range 11-32
Posted by canefan17 (Member # 22149) on :
cant,
When you say you tried cytomel in May and felt like death...
could that not be associated with flushing rT3 out of your system? You're going to get some resistance from rT3 until you up your dosage enough.
Then most like you'll know the day it clears and T3 takes over the sites. So you promptly lower the cytomel to a comfortable level.
How long were you on cytomel?
Posted by cantgiveupyet (Member # 8165) on :
why was this post moved to general!!! No one reads here!!!
Cane- I was on it for about a month at various doses trying to find a way to tolerate it.
hmm, Im not sure about having increased symptoms...could be...some on the thyroid group on yahoo said that it could have been from my body having stores of the armour in my body as well.
It is just odd that my temps are OK now..
how are your temps?
Posted by canefan17 (Member # 22149) on :
Mine are low
Posted by cantgiveupyet (Member # 8165) on :
Does it seem odd to you that my temps are normal with the high rT3?
I found one Dr that thinks they may be able to take a look at results...they dont take insurance and are HOURS from me :/
I have to say I am very fearful to add any thyroid med because what if my thyroid is doing this to fight the infections.
Posted by cantgiveupyet (Member # 8165) on :
I most likely am going to stop posting here...due to a private email I just recieved from a mod.
I really need help with my thyroid...quite a few had thyroid posts in medical that got a lot of helpful replies.
and mine was moved almost immediately here.
I know when I am not welcome here...and it is beyond obvious now.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
I wish I could help you. I know nothing about the thyroid.
Posted by JR (Member # 16898) on :
Can't- your first post is so medically technical I don't even understand the lingo. Sorry I can't help you.
Is there a doctor in the house?
Posted by Anna Lee (Member # 22992) on :
Since your question is so complex, can you ask the doctor that offered to help you with the problem for a referral closer to you? AL
Posted by cantgiveupyet (Member # 8165) on :
the problem is very similar to what Canefane posted earlier and what massman posted today
in that thread you will see that I noted I would be posting my results later tonite..for opinions.
Canefane has similar thyroid results as I do.
AL- I have been all over lookin for a dr ...none are closer to me. I only posted this because Cane was able to get a lot of good opinions :-(
AL- as you know I cannot mention thyroid again.
Posted by cantgiveupyet (Member # 8165) on :
Im so stressed now over all of this...I am on verge of tears :-(
Posted by JR (Member # 16898) on :
Hmmm- Hats off to Can't for getting a copy of your tests. I go to an endocrinologist-and have never even seen a detailed test result like that. I just do what the doc tells me to do.
Posted by canefan17 (Member # 22149) on :
cant,
The issue here is high rT3. nothing else matters i the blood results (with exception to those adrenal figures)
Get on some adrenal support/supplements before you do anything. that morning cortisol is way too low.
But the thyroid is not functioning because of high rT3.
Basiclly your body (which is stressed from lyme) isn't converting T4 to T3... rather T4 to rT3. It does this in an attempt to relax and take a break.
You were just under attack from a bacterial infection. If you were to begin supplementation it might make those, already skeptical cortisol numbers, WORSE!
Support the adrenals and treat Lyme.
Posted by cantgiveupyet (Member # 8165) on :
JR- the members here on LN taught me long ago to request copies of everything, so that is what I do...
Posted by canefan17 (Member # 22149) on :
cant,
that's good. keep everything.
And if you'll notice all your numbers fluctuated a little each time you took the tests....
BUT rT3 stayed high. and again, that's all you need to know.
Do you have an LLMD? Ask him/her if you should go on synthroid/cytomel for a lil bit to get the thyroid back up and running.
Posted by cantgiveupyet (Member # 8165) on :
new llmd does not deal with thyroid issues :/
thanks canefan for your observations about the numbers changing but Rt3 remaining high.
I asked the Dr about the low morning adrenal reading...but he said overal the cortisol burden wasnt bad so all was OK.
I also asked if it mattered that I set my alarm to wake up to take the first reading...I normally dont wake up that early. he said it did not matter as the body should be waking up at that time and cortisol should be higher to wake up.
oddly enough the nite I took that test I was able to stay up until 5AM. He said that didnt matter ...and the cortisol was low at midnite like it should be. that even if I could stay awake didnt mean that my cortisol wasnt low.
I fear cytomel- It really was very scary for me while on it.
Cane- if I support the adrenals will that make the Rt3 better?
As you probably know most Dr dont even test Rt3 so very difficult to find one that can treat it properly.
Thanks for your help, much appreciated.
Posted by canefan17 (Member # 22149) on :
can't,
My naturopath says absolutely supporting the adrenals can make the rT3 better.
Adrenal support can aid in conversion of T4 to T3.
I'm just not sure if it's enough to clear rT3.
I'm in the process of doing this with natural supplements (I'm in week 10)... so when I test again... in 2 weeks... I'll let you know if it's improving.
rT3 that is
Posted by cantgiveupyet (Member # 8165) on :
thanks Canefan- I have some adrenal supplements here , so I will ask my Dr if they think they would be useful. My former LLMD thought they would be, but I never did get a chance to try them.
do you think rT3 can cause things like tight muscles and trigger points?
Posted by WildCondor (Member # 434) on :
What is wrong with this question? It should be in medical, and I don't understand why Cant is being attacked? What's going on here!
Posted by JR (Member # 16898) on :
quote:Originally posted by WildCondor: What is wrong with this question? It should be in medical, and I don't understand why Cant is being attacked? What's going on here!
I'd duck and run if I were you. I think the Mods are tired of repeating themselves.
Posted by massman (Member # 18116) on :
What school did your ND graduate from ?
How long ago ? Posted by WildCondor (Member # 434) on :
I think I will....best idea yet, thanks! Posted by seekhelp (Member # 15067) on :
WC, it's something like if you mention Lyme once and another condition 2x, it moves to General. if you mention thyroid and type Lyme in caps and be sure to include that word at least 3 times every 2 paragraphs, you go into a drawing where your post has a 50/50% chance of remaining in medical. If you just say all is Lyme, you're good to go.
Or the other novel idea, people just review both forums.
Since this post has nothing to do with the topic, it may just get moved to Off-Topic even. lol.
Posted by cantgiveupyet (Member # 8165) on :
maybe I should post about the olympics and lyme
I am just thankful that when I first came to LN...Lymetoo was kind enough to answer my questions about my bladder in the medical forum... and suggest I might have interstitial cystitis. (she was right)
and if not for her- I might not have the diagnosis today and the treatment and diet that have helped me to have somewhat better quality of life...so thanks Lymetoo Posted by JR (Member # 16898) on :
Good thing you're not looking in medical anymore for answers- they're discussing Apple Cider Vinegar-which might be okay to take a bath in- but is murder for the IC patient.
Posted by cantgiveupyet (Member # 8165) on :
I took a peek and saw that JR- yikes! I did drink some Apple Cider Vinegar prior to IC when first sick and someone suggested it on here.. and it did help with stomach issues.
I do miss salt N vinegar chips...sigh
I wonder if Apple cider vinegar could be good for my thyroid.
Posted by massman (Member # 18116) on :
Blumping / bumping / harumphing this thread UP.
We can now continue our discussion on this confusing subject.
In general here we can post about once every 2 weeks Posted by lightparfait (Member # 22022) on :
This should be in medical!
Posted by massman (Member # 18116) on :
Oh Nooooooo light !
Powers that be - their decision stands Posted by lilacs48 (Member # 20025) on :
I don't care where it's located as long as you all talk about it. I'm still trying to learn & do pretty well on the days that my brain is engaged. It is confusing to someone who has never had to worry about all this! Wish it could be easy & the answer was the same for all of us. Sometimes I do a search when something is happening with myself that I don't understand. Usually when I come here I just look to see what the latest topics are in hopes of helping to find answers. Everybody keep hanging around as lots of us need you & your input....Thank you.
Posted by Melanie Reber (Member # 3707) on :
Thinking of you sweetheart and hoping things improve soon! M
Posted by massman (Member # 18116) on :
Buuuuump up. Or is that a burp ?
Posted by Allie (Member # 10778) on :
I'm following this too.
I'm just learning about rT3 and its connection to LD. Just had mine tested and it is high. LLMD prescribed cytomel but PCP didn't think it was a good idea since all other tyroid tests were normal.
so, I'm in limbo, and I'm not starting it until I understand more....
Allie
Posted by cantgiveupyet (Member # 8165) on :
For those still following this- I received this from a friend last nite regarding Rt3 -thank you to that friend for presenting another view on Rt3
The thyroid gland secretes mostly T4 and very little T3. Most of the T3 that drives cell metabolism is produced by action of the enzyme named 5'-deiodinase, which converts T4 to T3. (We pronounce the "5'-" as "five-prime.") Without this conversion of T4 to T3, cells have too little T3 to maintain normal metabolism; metabolism then slows down. T3, therefore, is the metabolically active thyroid hormone. For the most part, T4 is metabolically inactive. T4 "drives" metabolism only after the deiodinase enzyme converts it to T3.
Another enzyme called 5-deiodinase continually converts some T4 to reverse-T3. Reverse-T3 does not stimulate metabolism. It is produced as a way to help clear some T4 from the body. Under normal conditions, cells continually convert about 40% of T4 to T3. They convert about 60% of T4 to reverse-T3. Hour-by-hour, conversion of T4 continues with slight shifts in the percentage of T4 converted to T3 and reverse-T3.
Under normal conditions, the body eliminates reverse-T3 rapidly. Other enzymes quickly convert reverse-T3 to T2 and T2 to T1, and the body eliminates these molecules within roughly 24-hours. (The process of deiodination in the body is a bit more complicated than I can explain in this short summary.) The point is that the process of deiodination is dynamic and constantly changing, depending on the body's needs.
Under certain conditions, the conversion of T4 to T3 decreases, and more reverse T3 is produced from T4. Three of these conditions are food deprivation (as during fasting or starvation), illness (such as liver disease), and stresses that increase the blood level of the stress hormone called cortisol.
We assume that reduced conversion of T4 to T3 under such conditions slows metabolism and aids survival. Thus, during fasting, disease, or stress, the conversion of T4 to reverse-T3 increases. At these times, conversion of T4 to T3 decreases about 50%, and conversion of T4 to reverse-T3 increases about 50%.
Under normal, non-stressful conditions, different enzymes convert some T4 to T3 and some to reverse-T3. The same is true during fasting, illness, or stress; only the percentages change--less T4 is converted to T3 and more is converted to reverse-T3.
The reduced T3 level that occurs during illness, fasting, or stress slows the metabolism of many tissues. Because of the slowed metabolism, the body does not eliminate reverse-T3 as rapidly as usual. The slowed elimination from the body allows the reverse-T3 level in the blood to increase considerably.
In addition, during stressful experiences such as surgery and combat, the amount of the stress hormone cortisol increases. The increase inhibits conversion of T4 to T3; conversion of T4 to reverse-T3 increases. The same inhibition occurs when a patient has Cushing's syndrome, a disease in which the adrenal glands produce too much cortisol.
Inhibition also occurs when a patient begins taking cortisol as a medication such as prednisone. However, whether the increased circulating cortisol occurs from stress, Cushing's syndrome, or taking prednisone, the inhibition of T4 to T3 conversion is temporary. It seldom lasts for more than one-to-three weeks, even if the circulating cortisol level continues to be high. Studies have documented that the inhibition is temporary.
A popular belief nowadays (proposed by Dr. Dennis Wilson) has not been proven to be true, and much scientific evidence tips the scales in the "false" direction with regard to this idea.
The belief is that the process involving impaired T4 to T3 conversion--with increases in reverse-T3--becomes stuck. The "stuck" conversion is supposed to cause chronic low T3 levels and chronically slowed metabolism.
Some have speculated that the elevated reverse-T3 is the culprit, continually blocking the conversion of T4 to T3 as a competitive substrate for the 5'-deiodinase enzyme.
However, this belief is contradicted by studies of the dynamics of T4 to T3 conversion and T4 to reverse-T3 conversion. Laboratory studies have shown that when factors such as increased cortisol levels cause a decrease in T4 to T3 conversion and an increase in T4 to reverse-T3 conversion, the shift in the percentages of T3 and reverse-T3 produced is only temporary.
Posted by cantgiveupyet (Member # 8165) on :
Here is a site that many with thyroid problems turn to.. anyone know if the info on this site is scientifically proven, or is it just based on patient results?
snip Why does my body produce RT3 (Reverse T3)? In any situation where your body needs to conserve energy, such as emotional, physical, or biological stress, your thyroid will properly convert any excess T4 to the inactive Reverse T3 (RT3) as a way to clear out the extra T4. This can happen when you are chronically or acutely sick (such as having the flu, pneumonia, etc), after surgery, after a car accident, etc. It's normal.
Can I as a thyroid patient make too much RT3? Definitely yes. Understand that this is not a problem for all thyroid patients. But for many, you can find yourself with excessive RT3 from three common conditions, which are either undiagnosed or undertreated and thus, are ongoing: low ferritin, and/or high or low cortisol, and is exacerbated by your private life stresses. This RT3 problem is sometimes referred to as Wilson's Syndrome, though thyroid patients found information that went beyond what Dr. Wilson discovered (and named after himself), as explained below, i.e. it's not a unique, unrelated condition. It's explained by the below.
What specifically are the reasons I, as a thyroid patient, make too much RT3? On top of the common stresses of your lifes, there are three common biological reasons, with the first two related to your adrenals, and the third related to your storage iron levels.
Posted by lightparfait (Member # 22022) on :
cantgiveup...interesting info from your friend!
So does she believe the problem is producing the "enzymes", and getting proper nutrition and absorbing our food? (illnes, fasting,or unintentional fasting, stress halt enzyme production?)
I know my body is not producing digestive enzymes...so it is probably not producing other enzymes for the natural reactions to occur.
How can we support enzyme production without adding enzymes so the body can produce these naturally?
lp
Quote: "Most of the T3 that drives cell metabolism is produced by action of the enzyme named 5'-deiodinase, which converts T4 to T3.
Without this conversion of T4 to T3, cells have too little T3 to maintain normal metabolism; metabolism then slows down. T3, therefore, is the metabolically active thyroid hormone.
For the most part, T4 is metabolically inactive. T4 "drives" metabolism only after the deiodinase enzyme converts it to T3."
Under normal conditions, the body eliminates reverse-T3 rapidly.
Other enzymes quickly convert reverse-T3 to T2 and T2 to T1, and the body eliminates these molecules within roughly 24-hours.
The reduced T3 level that occurs during illness, fasting, or stress slows the metabolism of many tissues. Because of the slowed metabolism, the body does not eliminate reverse-T3 as rapidly as usual. The slowed elimination from the body allows the reverse-T3 level in the blood to increase considerably."
Posted by lightparfait (Member # 22022) on :
ok...just got my results left on my phone...they are mailing them to me.
But I don;t have any reference ranges...they were done at labcorp...can anyone help me understand these?
THS: 1.99 T4: 8.2 T3: 108
and an out of range ANA (they left no numbers on the phone.)
If anyone understands the numbers...please chime in!
Thanks,lp
Posted by massman (Member # 18116) on :
blomp
Posted by cantgiveupyet (Member # 8165) on :
lp- without the ranges it is difficult to give an opinion on the results- hopefully they will come in the mail tomorrow.
Hope everyone is hanging in there
Posted by lightparfait (Member # 22022) on :
Test results finally came...
Could anyone give me some insight, or some questions to ask, or other tests to request...
Is there any correlation to these out of range results:
ANA Positive A...(no numbers or ranges)
My antithyroglobuoin Ab is: high 923 (High) ref. range: 0-40 IU/ml
Thyroid Peroxidase (TPO) Ab: normal 27 ref.range: 0-34 IU/ml
TSH normal 1.990 ref. range: 0.450 - 4.500 uIU/ml
Also out of range ...low...is my MCHC 31.6 low ref. range 32.0 - 66.0 g/dl indicting possible iron deficiency anemia...
Cholesterol total high 215 ref. range: 100-199 mg/dl
LDL Cholesterol high 120 ref range: 0 - 99 mg/dl
LDL: 120 high ref range: 0-99 mg/dl
My md is not available to explain this to me this week.
I have always had a very low and good cholesterol numbers...even during lyme treatment...this out or range is new for me now.
Is this an autoimmune attack of my thyroid?
an autoimmune attack of my hormones or pituitary or hypothalamus...?
trying to know what direction to take and appreciate advice from all of you who have gone before me!
lp
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
i don't have a clue.
aren't thyroid and adrenal issues considered a physical therefore, medical issue?
huh???
Posted by lightparfait (Member # 22022) on :
yes...but this post was moved because the moderators said it was not related to lyme...its subjective?
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
i still don't get it.
Posted by cantgiveupyet (Member # 8165) on :
Randi- dont even get me started on why this one was moved... and others discussing thyroid were left in Medical.
ask Massman!!
lp- it appears that your body is attacking your thyroid based on the high Ab result.
I am not familiar with that aspect of the thyroid of how to treat, but it would explain why your ANA is also positive.
Where you tested for any other autoimmune stuff like sojgrens etc?
I cant comment on the cholesterol numbers- mine were once high and are now normal..one LLMD said they sometimes will go high to protect us from infection (dont have any scientific support for this though)
Posted by lightparfait (Member # 22022) on :
Thanks CGUY! they haven't tested me for other issues ;yet...I think that is coming.
My GP said he could only test certain things first so insurance would cover them, then test other issues later after getting positive results...so Insurance would cover. So I agreed...to keep cost low!
Just wanted to know which tests others here think I need to get to get to the bottom of this...I could request them.
Posted by lightparfait (Member # 22022) on :
ok..just received the more in depth results.
All auto immune conditions are negetive ncluding slogrens...
Also...after this two week thyroid issue I have been having...all my symptoms are gone today!!!
This is wacky...its definatly an immune reonse going on. An immune system attack that somes and goes.
Posted by cantgiveupyet (Member # 8165) on :
lp that is good that the Dr tested you for the other autoimmune conditions...and they were negative. Now you can focus on the thyroid since you showed antibodies for that.
Do you notice if your symptoms follow a pattern at all? I forget if you mentioned before , but what are some of your symptoms?
Posted by cantgiveupyet (Member # 8165) on :
I was told today my rT3 is a sign of autoimmunity..
the way it was described to me is in some patients the TH1 side is overactive compared to the TH2 and this drives the body into a state of autoimmunity.
For me this makes some sense as I never get a cold or the flu etc...
they feel my supplementing with low dose slow release Cytomel this can help to rebalance tis...
they also suggested using a supplement guna-flam to help with inflamation which in turn will help rebalance the TH1/TH2
Also based on my hormone panel(saliva) the dr at the lab said my pattern was that of someone with PCOS- but I dont have those symptoms.
Any thoughts on any of the above would be appreciated....
and massman if you read this do you think the Guna-flam would help heal some of the organs?
Posted by massman (Member # 18116) on :
I will google it
I wonder what a name like that will bring up Posted by massman (Member # 18116) on :
Homeopathics primarily to reduce inflammation.
Since in some types of medicine inflammation is regarded as a second stage it may help with some rebuilding - not sure how much.
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