I am a person with lyme, someone managing lyme, or someone faced with lyme,
I am dealing with lyme.
And, yes, I suppose I am even a person who has chronic lyme (and much more which would be included in "Lyme Complex" as some LLMDs now say).
It really should be called borreliosis or neuroborreliosis, though, to be accurate. It never should have been called "Lyme disease" to begin with as it is just the name of the town where it was first "noticed" but that's another matter, really, aside from this since the nickname for the infection is likely to stick for a while. But the nick names for those with it, I find insulting. And we can stand up to put-down that so often goes with it.
But - I am not a "Lymie" and it makes me so very sad to be called that or see it as the nickname that automatically comes with the infection. "Ick," is how I feel about it all.
I do not say: lyme PATIENT as others have pointed out before that this makes them sad as they are so much more than a patient. So I stopped using that term as a reference.
Personally, I do not want to be called a lyme "Sufferer" or even "Victim" either but those terms may be used sparingly and appropriately in certain context. But, depending upon the audience, these terms can also backfire.
Back to why I'm so saddened to be called "Lymie"
Since I've noticed more posters using the term "Lymies" lately, I just had to speak up.
I know I cannot say the words as eloquently as I'd like and tend to repeat in different ways ill-worded attempts about this matter that is so very close to my heart, literally.
But if we want the world to take this illness and those who have been dealt this hand seriously, nicknames ending in "ie" can have the opposite effect.
Would we call those with cancer "Cancies" or those with Parkinson's "Parkies" - etc.? Of course not.
I do not want to kick off a fight but, please just consider that it can seriously undermine the serious nature of lyme and those who deal with it.
I don't "do" Facebook (just too overwhelming) but have noticed references lately to more and more Facebook pages with a headline of "Lymie" and it makes me very sad to think this is for the world to see us, as club with a cute name.
I think it undermines the integrity of a person with lyme in the eyes of others who do not understand.
I literally recoil when I see that term as a nickname for myself. I want nothing to do with any nickname for this dreadful situation.
Others see it as a term of endearment and I know. Others see it as bringing together others, lovingly. And it may well do that - INSIDE a sealed room. But not for the world to see. They think we WANT to be in this cute little club.
I'm not wanting to clobber anyone over the use of that term but thought maybe those who use it don't know that it can carry great sadness and embarrassment for many - and greatly jeopardize the way others in the world see us.
Anytime anything is posted anywhere on the web, it's public. All eyes can see it. I just hope they see people who are retaining their dignity against tremendous odds. -
[ 11-21-2014, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by Pony (Member # 32559) on :
completely agree
Posted by Tricky Tickey (Member # 26546) on :
I'm wondering what label name would be appropriate when addressing members of our subculture (which is what we are). What would you like to be called? I've often thought of the term 'Lymie' as a bit lame.
Those who have been through cancer are called 'cancer survivor'.
So perhaps the best term to describe us, meaning those who have had Lyme & tick borne diseases and overcome it or are still fighting it, would be:
Lyme advocate.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Lyme Advocate certainly works for many who speak the truth about this (and most who post here). I see that more for those leading events or speaking out, though.
I've never liked labels but will say "advocate" is a good term that usually holds dignity.
But to say every person with lyme is an advocate puts them directly in the center of political fight.
Maybe they want to avoid that part (as best they can) and just get better without having to become a political figure in the fight. They are not intending to fight - they just want treatment to get better. They may feel "advocate" to be a job forced on them.
I'm not calling for agreement on a particular term at all. There are many different ways to refer to those who have lyme, while keeping dignity.
I've not yet survived lyme, at all. I am not a survivor. I am still ill.
In my mind, a survivor would not feel as ill as I do every minute of every day. That's not yet a survivor.
I am just a person who has this and am fighting to learn more to save my life (since an expert doctor and treatment is out of reach, as it the case for thousands). I've come far and am better in some ways, so, yes . . . I've survived a lot.
Of course, technically, being a survivor can refer to anyone still standing during an on-going struggle (another word I shy away from when I can).
If "Survivor" works for others in some situations, that's seems fair.
But I would not want it as a label for those who have lyme. I think "survivor" glosses over the chronic aspects of this disease complex.
"Survivor" sounds to the world like all is well and good - it's all behind us. Even if we know it's not that simple.
To me the term "survivor" is one who has succeeded. Success is a ways off still.
I suppose, "those struggling with lyme" could be used in the right context but not as a label or a brand. That could make some feel disenfranchised.
I have no perfect words, ever, but usually word it something like this:
I am a person with lyme; someone managing lyme; or someone faced with lyme,
I am dealing with lyme. And, yes, I suppose I am even a person who has chronic lyme (the term "chronic" not one the IDSA likes, of course).
or - to refer to others here are my attempts:
those who have lyme; those with lyme; those dealing with or those managing lyme.
I may use "lyme complex" or "lyme & co." In the right context, lyme "patient" - but not as a nickname or moniker, more for when discussing medical matters and the term "patient" just fits.
I just think it's best to avoid nicknames or labels. Lyme is not a brand. We are individuals who just happen to be dealing with a tough situation.
In communication with each other, there are still other ways to establish a caring atmosphere. -
Posted by gigimac (Member # 33353) on :
When I first saw people referring to themselves as lymies it really bugged me.
At times it almost sounded like some people were proud of it and I thought, I am not a lymie, I am not going to be labeled by this horrible disease. Giving myself the name lymie was like saying this is who I am and I accept it.
Over time I became more numb to this term and I have even used it.
But I am glad I saw your post. I think I have gotten too comfortable in thinking this is my life and this what I am.
I have got to get back to that mindset of "I will beat this."
Posted by TxCoord (Member # 9204) on :
I am going to give this some thought and see if I can come up with something.
It is now acceptable to say "I have cancer" without seeing people react like they did 40 years ago and I think that is part of our battle - acceptance.
(Not saying acceptance as in resignation, but acceptance meaning people understand the implication of an illness)
Therefore, I will assign some brain space to this. Good topic Keebler.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
I used to say "Lymies" here on LN... but changed many years ago to "lyme patients."
Posted by Dogsandcats (Member # 28544) on :
I am busted for "Lymie" use
Mostly cause it was a shortcut for me. Slacker that I am.
I will ponder a new name..
Posted by gigimac (Member # 33353) on :
dogs and cats, yes I have used the term too after hearing it so much. I began to use it cause it was an easier and shorter way to refer to myself and others with lyme disease.
Keebler, I agree that it does make lyme sound much less serious.
Posted by AlanaSuzanne (Member # 25882) on :
Keebler, thanks for posting. I agree with everything you've said.
I absolutely hate the term "lymie" and refuse to use it. As you mentioned, it connotes membership in some cutesy club. And really, who would dare call a cancer patient a cancie?
I think Lyme patient, Lyme survivor, Lyme advocate, person with tick-borne disease/illnesses, person with chronic persistent infection(s) are far superior terms and more accurately reflect the reality that is Lyme Disease.
Posted by Pony (Member # 32559) on :
quote:Originally posted by gigimac:
At times it almost sounded like some people were proud of it and I thought, I am not a lymie, I am not going to be labeled by this horrible disease. Giving myself the name lymie was like saying this is who I am and I accept it.
[/QB]
That's why it always bothered me as well. It's like a cute name for a horrible disease. I feel that we lose credibility when people use it... As they write "I'm a lymie" in bright green font Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
Keebler,
Yes, I agree. I don't believe I have ever used that word in all these years. As you said...
"Would we call those with cancer "Cancies" or those with Parkinson's "Parkies" - etc.? Of course not."
I use various terms to describe folks here. Some nice and now that I think about it, some not so nice. HA!
But I often call the people here our "members". We are ALL members of Lyme Net- some with Lyme, some not.
I also use the word "patients" if they have Lyme at the time. Rarely, if ever do I say "victims" as it doesn't suit me at all.
If it wasn't so LONG, I'd say folks here are the "best bunch of warm-hearted, smart and kind people that anyone with Lyme could hope for."
Good topic Keebler. Thanks for pointing that out.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
It bothered me when I saw posters on a Sjogren's board refer to themselves as Sjoggies. Same deal. Sounds stupid.
Posted by MADDOG (Member # 18) on :
Hi Gang I have called myself a Lymie a lot,doesen't bother me at all.
I think the term was kind of funny as people from England were called Limeies,I don't know why.
Mabe they put Lime in their tea.
Seems natural to me.
Put the Lyme in the Maddog and he will be a lymie,put the lyme in the Maddog they will be together.
Remember that old song??
MADDOG
Posted by MADDOG (Member # 18) on :
Now I remember !!
Doctor aint there nothing I can take,I say Doctor to relieve this Lyme ach.
Put the Lyme in the MADDOG and he will be a Lymie.
Put the Lyme in the Maddog and they will be together.
WEll mabe that was not the way the song went.
MADDOG
Posted by riverspirit (Member # 19435) on :
Thank you Keebler ~
i think what is important for all of us, no matter what our circumstance, is to realize who we really are. And none of us are our symptoms.
May we each have honor and respect for ourselves.
Always grateful for the wisdom and kindness that are present here in this group ~
Posted by Dogsandcats (Member # 28544) on :
Coconut maybe Maddog?
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- I think Maddog may be referring to a bar song about those with SCURVY, a vitamin C deficiency that affected sailors dreadfully (could even be fatal) until a cure was discovered: limes &
packing plenty of limes on the ship for crewmen to eat throughout the journey.
"Lymie" also rhymes with a British slang term, "Blimey" used for surprise, alarm, shock or annoyance. Oh, Goodie.
Limey is an old slang nickname, often pejorative, for the British, originally referring to their sailors.
It has since been used as a derogatory term that relates to English people.
The term is believed to derive from Lime (fruit), referring to the Royal Navy and Merchant Navy practice of supplying lime juice to British sailors to prevent scurvy.[1] -
Posted by Silverwolf (Member # 9196) on :
<<<<< Keebler, and The Various Repliers >>>>>,
I Tho't about maybe Lyme-rs, but that didn't seem right either.
Generally I say Lyme Folk or Lyme Family here on LymeNet. Not sure what the best answer would be.
You are quite correct,there is nothing cute about this disease /disease complex.
I've been known to try to explain that I felt 'Slimed by Lyme'... like having to slog thru swampy slick gunk.
I am a Lyme Fighter, tho' weary more often than not.
When I was Dx'ed w/ CFIDs/CEBV in 1992 they used that 'Persons With' terminology.
Not sure the best answer?!?
Jus' Silverwolfi
Posted by MADDOG (Member # 18) on :
When I was finally diagnosed with lyme 6 months ago, I was relieved, not because I had lyme, but because I finally knew after 20 years of searching....
But, after spending an exhausting 3 months to find a doctor, an LLMD, that knew enough to start to help me.... Trying to come up with the cash or credit to pay for the treatments, cause we are not noticed as a real disease.... Worried about how bad it will get before it hopefully gets better.... Having people roll their eyes, or just say oh you only have lyme.
I think to be taken seriously, a cutesy name for a seriously chronic infection, a disease so painful that people take there own lives, is not the way to go.
If I wanted to belong to a club with a fun name...I don' t think I would join the lyme club... Its not a fun club...its an exhausting, painful club that should be taken seriously....
So the name lymies is like a slap in the face, making fun of something we have that is terrible, like its not a big deal!
To each his own...but I will not be a lymie..I am a person with a debilitating disease and I want to be taken seriously.
Thank you Keebler for bringing this subject to the open....
Posted by MADDOG (Member # 18) on :
I am now sitting here trying to figure out if I should stop using the term.I am trying to decide if I mabe dont like the name Lymie.
I mean Aidsie,cancerie,MSie,Lou Garigsie,all sound really derogatory.
HHMMM!!!
MADDOG
Posted by MannaMe (Member # 33330) on :
I prefer to say "my husband is being treated for Lyme" rather than "My husband has Lyme".
Somehow saying he has Lyme seems to claim it and make it part of him.... I don't like that thought at all.
I hadn't really thought how "Lymies" sounds......Don't know that I used that term very much.
Posted by Dogsandcats (Member # 28544) on :
MADDOG
I thought you were talking about the Harry Nilsson song...ha ha
Posted by In19944 (Member # 34272) on :
Lymie sounds way too fun, let's just add an S in front of the L.
Posted by jblral (Member # 8836) on :
As someone who writes a lot about Lyme disease and the people who have it, I also ponder the best way to refer to them. Depending on context, I often choose among "Lyme survivor," "Lyme advocate," "Lyme patient," "one who struggles with Lyme," "one who is being treated for Lyme," "member of the Lyme community." I avoid "victim" and "Lymie."
Posted by Tricky Tickey (Member # 26546) on :
Another would be "fighting tick borne diseases".
"with borreliosis"
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Excellent points, Tricky, Tricky.
It's important to shine the light on the set of "Tick Borne diseases" and it also helps to call lyme what is really is: Borreliosis.
The residents of Lyme, CT have been wanting that since 1977.
Neuroborreliosis is also helpful (as a term, that is - it's sure not helpful to have it :-).
BTW, if anyone wonders why TBI is not used for "Tick-Borne Infections" -- that's been taken by those with Traumatic Brain Injury.
So TBD was the next likely initial set, switching out "infection" for "disease" - I think that's the reason, or at least part of it. I just learned early on not to use TBI but, instead, TBD.
TBD can also mean "to be determined." Also fits. -
Posted by FuzzySlippers (Member # 13658) on :
How about Lyme Warrior?
Posted by sbh93 (Member # 30429) on :
Oh my gosh--"to be determined," ain't that the darndest truth.
I like saying I have neuroborelliosis. No skeptical looks, often confusion and even concern, but no dumb questions.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- FuzzySlippers,
You ask: Warrior?
Just my thoughts here.
Does that then put someone right in the middle of this political battle?
Sadly, it seems the IDSA is in full combat mode, blocking the truth, but I do not want to ever consider myself a warrior.
I did not enlist in this army. I do not want to fight this fight. I just want the information and the sources to get my life back.
However, since that's been so hard to work out, I do my bit to try to help others with details that helped me. But "warrior" does not suit me.
I am glad for those who can take up a torch and light the way in this dark fight. And, yes, some could be called "warrior" but the average person who stumbles into lyme does not want to be in a war.
They just want to get better; they are not looking for labels or titles. -
Posted by In19944 (Member # 34272) on :
I like warrior. Someone, someday is going to have to fight, even the wounded.
Posted by FuzzySlippers (Member # 13658) on :
None of us wants to be labeled. Is there anyone here who does not want to find healing?
I'm a Lymie, a Lyme Patient, a Person with a life derailed, and nearly lost, from late-stage, fully disseminated neuroborelliosis and associated vector borne infections.
Am I a Lyme Warrior? You bet I am.
Is my personal health situation more difficult then any of the other "Lyme Warriors" here? I think probably not.
Just like nearly everyone else with this illness, I have had to fight tooth and nail each step of the way.
For example, I've had to fight to raise myself from the bed, fight to get my legs to finally work again, fight to use arms which were paralyzed from infection, fight to see through blinded eyes . . .
fight to find good LLMD's, fight to survive 7 major surgeries within 2 years, fight to survive having cancer in the midst of it all the Lyme illness, fight to find decent home health care, fight to be heard -- the list is endless.
If I hadn't fought with determination and persistence, I wouldn't have survived this long. If I hadn't had an army of angels from above, friends, and family, I would not be here.
I'm a Lyme Warrior. And it's not a position I ever wanted to be in. I was drafted into this!
I'm not posting this to get into an issue of semantics. Lymie, Lyme Patient, Person with Lyme, Person with or without a label, Person whose status is yet-to-be-determined, Lyme Warrior -- whatever.
I think everyone with this dreaded affliction can agree that it's not something any of us has signed up for.
And however we choose to describe ourselves or the manner in which we deal with this unimaginably devastating illness is up to the individual.
And it's perhaps kinder not to expect one to censor the way one deals with it, including, but not limited to, names that one uses to describe oneself.
Having said all that, I will honor requests to refrain from calling those on this board who have indicated that they don't like it, what I traditionally considered the affectionate nickname of "Lymie," if they ask me too. No worries, friends.
Hugs from Fuzzy, The Lyme Warrior who is quite curmudgeonly today :-)
Posted by FuzzySlippers (Member # 13658) on :
Keeb,
My husband just walked in the room wile I was posting here, asked what I was doing, so I told him.
He has suggested that perhaps in lieu of Lyme Warrior, I could be viewed as a Borreliad ....
or a Borreliac .....
*rolling my eyes* LOL!!!
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
i'm just too tired and sick to care what people call me. doesn't bother me.
lyme patient, yeah, got that, survivor, no, because i have not survived this. i am enduring not surviving...
surviving means to live and the way i live is not "living" in the normal sense of the word. i am barely making it lately and that is not "surviving" to me.
lyme advocate. hell no i don't "advocate" for lyme. that sounds like i'm out there promoting it or something.
lyme witch maybe. since i feel like that alot.
but if someone call me something, please call me for dinner or lunch...
Posted by FuzzySlippers (Member # 13658) on :
quote:Originally posted by randibear:
lyme witch maybe. since i feel like that alot.
but if someone call me something, please call me for dinner or lunch...
randibear, oh my .... rofl! and I'm still laughing. That was cute.
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
Wait until you read what happened to me on them cruise -- you'll croak!!
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
yes! borreliac!!
welcome back, randi!
Posted by FuzzySlippers (Member # 13658) on :
How about Vectorian?
I mean . . . in order to understand all this, we've had to earn Google Medical Degrees and become familiar with many different medical disciplines. Then we had to learn about entomology, nutrition, alternative and complementary applications, pharmacology, vector borne this and that, and Lord knows what else.
A well known LLMD remarked recently at a Lyme Conference that sooner or later there will be a medical specialty dedicated solely to treating Lyme Disease Complexes, including co-infections.
He wondered if those doctors might be called "Borreliologists." lol
Posted by Robin123 (Member # 9197) on :
Well, For Dinner Or Lunch..., nice to see you back - so what happened on the cruise?
Someday, I'd like to be called SuperCalifragilisticEXBorreliosist...
Posted by lymeinhell (Member # 4622) on :
Just as long as I don't hear 'Lyme's', call me what you will.
Posted by MADDOG (Member # 18) on :
I got it, PLUMBER .
Since this came from Plum Island.
MADDOG
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by lymeinhell: Just as long as I don't hear 'Lyme's', call me what you will.
- AMEN .. that is the annoying one!
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- It can be fun to think of alternative nick names but, really,
I don't want ANY nickname. I don't want to be branded with ANY label.
Most of those who have lyme (or any illness) don't want to be reduced to any nickname in the eyes of the public. And the web is public.
All that aside, while I've never wanted to be caught up in such a horrific ordeal, the learning process has brought some riches of discovery &/or appreciation (which I'm too tired to concisely & adequately describe).
. . . and it's been heartwarming to see others who are determined to come together and shine the light to set things right again. I am thankful for all those who have the energy to help improve this situation - while keeping each person's dignity in mind.
Rather than nicknames, this has me thinking about the
QUALITIES that help along the way. What helps us navigate the waters?
That's a list I'd be interested in. -
Posted by desertwind (Member # 25256) on :
I try hard not to over-identify with my "illness" or condition.
Don't particularly like the term lymie myself but to each his own.
Many "Chiarians" who have had Posterior Decompression surgery like to call themselves "Zipperheads". I hate the term and will not refer to myself as that even though the back of my head does look like a zipper!
I am a person who, amoung many other things, happens to have lyme.
I find a way each and every day to find that sacred connection within myself that reminds me I am much more then my illness.
Posted by seekhelp (Member # 15067) on :
Call us broke because that's what this damn illness does to most. Posted by Robin123 (Member # 9197) on :
Keebler: re qualities to get through, LOTS of patience and flexibility! Being informed, willing to communicate.
Posted by kam (Member # 3410) on :
Keebler....wondering if I did?? I rarely use the word but think I did a while back.
sorry if I did. I'll go back to not using it at all.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Is this dead yet? Posted by Atta (Member # 30786) on :
Broke Syndrome. Very nice. That's definitely what I have.
It also drives me crazy when people say Lymes.
Posted by Dogsandcats (Member # 28544) on :
When I used to work and a meeting went on too long I would say:
The horse is dead - dismount.
I don't know who originated it, some say Teddy Roosevelt?
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- It's still a valid consideration, so if people want to comment, they can go ahead. For new folks, this might be good to see . . . still, it's fine to let this just settle into the background.
Kam,
this was not about any one person using the term but there had been several threads here with the term and a few posts about various new FaceBook pages just for "Lymies"
- I was simply suggesting that may not be the best description for the whole web world to see (on any site) or even how to think our ourselves.
I was just making a general statement about not using ANY nickname for those with such a devastating illness. It poses a risk to credibility.
Here, and on other discussion boards, the elements of friendliness and support can certainly still be rich without nicknames which can be spun around opposite from good intent. -
[ 05-07-2012, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by Lauralyme (Member # 15021) on :
I am guilty and you are absolutley right Keebler it does make it sound like some fun club which it certainly is not.
The reason I did it was mainly laziness, as it seemed like a mouthful to say "the guy with lyme" when I could convey that to my friends with just one word.
I definitely won't be using the word anymore, thanks Keebler for bringing this to light. You are right other serious diseases don't have cute nicknames.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Bringing this up to the top for those who may be new to lyme.
It's especially important to consider this before the holiday family dinners and reunions with old friends. No new nick names are needed. -
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Keebler .. not everyone is offended by it.
Posted by beaches (Member # 38251) on :
I personally am very offended by the word "Lymies."
Are breast cancer survivors referred to as Breasties? Are leukemia patients referred to as Leukies? Are men who suffer from prostate cancer referred to as "prosties?"
HELL NO!
I had a dx of Lupus back in the day. A nurse once referred to me as one of her "Lupies." I took extreme offense to that term and let her know it. I was a young woman with a certain diagnosis. I was not at all willing to confine my illness to her cute nickname.
People with medical diagnoses need to be described as having a xyz disease, period. There is no room for cutie-pie nicknames for very serious and debilitating diseases.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
True.. but it's still an opinion.
Posted by beaches (Member # 38251) on :
I guess so, but I do wonder what others think of that term.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
I understand it. I am on a board for Sjogren's and I thought it sounded so stupid for people to call the patients shoggies... not sure how they spell it.
Posted by beaches (Member # 38251) on :
Shoggies? Really? Are we in 3rd grade??
UGH, UGH, UGH.
I HATE cutesie nicknames for sufferers of diseases.
Seems like the diseases women suffer from are more vulnerable to this type of nomenclature. IMO, it's completely unacceptable.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- I certainly understand that some see it as an endearment in a closed circle. But, even here, this is not a closed cafe but, really the world wide web. And terms move from here to outside circles, too.
It's not just about how we (who deal with lyme) think or feel about the term.
It's how we are presented to our families, and the world, with the use of such a nick-name & label.
It undermines the truth and sets us up for disregard in the world at large. How would anyone who knows nothing about lyme take anyone who has a sing-song nickname about this illness? Probably not very seriously.
Then think of how those who are dead-set against the idea of chronic lyme, itself. They are all to happy to call us names. And that causes damage. -
Posted by Dove7 (Member # 39546) on :
And maybe, some such as myself, used the term due to being new to the site and, momentarily until this reading, felt that there were others...oops, maybe others is an offensive term, too...who understood the quirks, foibles, faults, and frustration of this syndrome.
See, we could argue that it's a mutliplier of symptoms and transmutations depending on each person's health, reactions, etc., or we could take umbrage over a term that I personally never felt or thought was cute, but more community.
C'mon, this sounds more like a thread twinges with rising feelings than one of support and education.
Perhaps a note within a post that states your preference would be better than the tones I inferred from some of the responses would be more helpful, or even a note that this is a frustration or a venting would warn readers.
There are so many ups and downs with this condition that I haven't come here to be kicked when I'm down already.
Our paths are definitely different, but we are all human--unless we someday find out that the Bb (autocorrect just put in BBQ for me) were injected by aliens or a country out to destroy people. (Humor, though weak, is my go to for trying to leaven a situation.)
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
again, i don't care what the hell they call me. i just want my life back...
i am myself. i'm not any different. and i've been called redneck, hick, and let's not forget fat, obese, and on and on.
names don't bother me anymore. my self image is so bad it can't get any lower so what's words???
Posted by lax mom (Member # 38743) on :
I agree with randibear. I don't care what anyone calls me, I just want my life back.
We are dealing with life and death here on a daily basis. So, if you want to call me lymie, lyme infested, person with lyme's, and on and on...I have bigger problems to deal with, so I don't care.
Actually, you can call me anything, just not "psychosomatic"
Everyone has their own pet peeves. I understand that the word "lymie" and "lyme's" gets under some people's skin like nails on a chalkboard.
I truly understand Keebler. I have a very sensitive, inflamed nervous system too. But the problem lies in our own reaction, not in other's word choice.
We cannot control anyone but ourselves. When others call Lyme disease, Lyme's, in error...I can't afford the adrenaline burst to get angry. I know what disease they are talking about. We are here to support each other.
We are all suffering from this terrible disease. Can't we allow fellow lyme sufferers, lyme victims, lymies, lyme patients, etc, etc to call themselves whatever they choose?
Let's give each other some grace.
Posted by twicebitten (Member # 5412) on :
I haven't read all the posts here, but I don't even like being associated with the word "lyme". Why? because the physicians associate that word with the short term, easy to fix disease they think it is.
My 1st llmd referred to the disease as "borreliosis" (sp?) That would work, but as I have often told people who have asked me what my illness is, "multiple infections, that are chronic". That seems to cover it for me. No stigma from the L word. I guess Tick Borne disease might work but I don't particularly like that either.
I've also said just multiple viral and bacterial infections. People seem to not be so weird about this.
Borreliosis Complex? Not sure. This is just my experience.
Posted by lax mom (Member # 38743) on :
twicebitten: I told the ER Dr I had multiple tick-borne infections.
When I got a copy of my records, I noticed he wrote down "tic" borne infections and put it as a mental health issue.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
That's why we should get copies of our hospital stays!! That's awful!
Posted by Robin123 (Member # 9197) on :
Well, I don't accept medical records turning this into mental, when it's physical. Even when it's in our brains too, it's physical. I go back and tell them to update my records and bring them brochures. Or I write a letter and have them put it in my file.
I also educate the entire staff, telling them it's here, they could get it, and how to protect. I have educated a couple ERs here - we can do it.
Posted by beaches (Member # 38251) on :
Keebler,
EXACTLY!
Posted by desertwind (Member # 25256) on :
I hate that too. I am much more then a disease and refuse to identify myself as such.
In the Chiair Malformation world there are those who have have corrective surgery and like to call themselve "Zipperheads" because of the large scar left from the surgery. I had the surgery and would NEVER call myself a "Zipperhead".
I am someone who has lyme disease and someone who had decompression surgery to correct a Chiari Malformation - period. It is not the totality of who I am.
Posted by Ann-OH (Member # 2020) on :
No disease sufferer should be called by any cutesy name ! I have been stressing that for over 20 years.
Even LdP's for Lyme disease patients doesn't quite work.
Ann - OH
Posted by twicebitten (Member # 5412) on :
I hear you lax mom. I found out the ID doc wrote all sorts of crap in his notes, things he said I said which were all WRONG. Now, other docs have these "notes" and they make me look crazy. He claims I had "been on the internet", "looking up junk medicine articles" and writes the wrong name of my llmd, as well as misspells my sisters "morgellons".
I don't think most docs even remotely catch about 1/4 of what we say anyway. At least that's been my experience.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by lax mom:
Everyone has their own pet peeves. I understand that the word "lymie" and "lyme's" gets under some people's skin like nails on a chalkboard.
I truly understand Keebler. I have a very sensitive, inflamed nervous system too. But the problem lies in our own reaction, not in other's word choice.
We cannot control anyone but ourselves.
-Amen to all of the above-
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- How are those with lyme seen to the world? Not in a good light, apparently.
Professional Paper calls those with lyme "Lymies"
Authors seem to think that all those with lyme wish to indentified as "lymies" --
not helpful at all for understanding and I take this as a demeaning insult - but it matches with what most IDSA doctors think so it should have been no surprise.
No one would call cancer patients "cancies" just because they seek out more information about their illness or form a support group.
Pointing out the "negative feedback" those with lyme get from the medical world also makes them sound lacking in character and intelligence, like the "negative feedback" is deserved, somehow so then patients storm off and form a little club.
They could have drawn upon Lorraine Johnson and Pamela Weintraub's work to shed some light but the goal here did not seem to be finding the truth, just petpetuating misperceptions about those with lyme.
Competing online viewpoints and models of chronic illness.
by Jennifer Mankoff, Kateryna Kuksenok, Jennifer A. Rode, Sara Kiesler, Kelly Waldman
Excerpt: Page 8; column 1; paragraph 2:
. . . Over time, participants began to take on what Castells characterizes as a “defensive identity” that can lead to the formation of a community designed to resist, and ultimately change, the current cultural norm [9].
Thus the negative feedback participants received
led them to identify with a new community of people, “Lymies,” as they developed a new understanding of their disease. . . . (end excerpt).
Topic: CALL FOR PARTICIPANTS: study of individuals managing Lyme disease -
Posted by lax mom (Member # 38743) on :
I didn't "get" it until I went on dinet looking for info on Pots due to my recent diagnosis. They were calling each other "Potsies". It truly did diminish the severity of the syndrome that is pure hell.
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
advocate -- to promote...
i definitely don't promote lyme so i'm not a lyme advocate at all.
frankly, i don't care what the heck you call me. i'm "sick"...period..
call me lymie, call me diseased, call me a patient (well sometimes not really cause if you don't see a doctor how can you be a patient. that means you're under a doctor's treatment.)
i just flat out don't care...sorry but i have so many other things to worry about that this is small change to me.
i've given up trying to educate opinionated stubborn willfull ignorant people. they're blind by choice so i don't have time for them any more. i just don't mention it, not worth my time and me being upset.
ya'll on here know i have lyme, so what?? call me anything you want.
i'm easy...just sick...
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- If we put ourselves down, we allow others to do so, too. Any nickname that demeans one, demeans all in that population. And then the general world just picks it up.
Not the first time in history when demeaning nicknames for any group of people has caused deep pain. But I thought we were beyond that by now.
The thing is that when academic papers call any group of persons who are ill by a nickname, in the manner below, that is a terrible insult to all and impedes progress.
No one would call cancer patients "cancies" just because they seek out more information about their illness or form a support group.
Pointing out the "negative feedback" those with lyme get from the medical world also makes them sound lacking in character and intelligence, like the "negative feedback" is deserved, somehow so then patients storm off and form a little club.
They could have drawn upon Lorraine Johnson and Pamela Weintraub's work to shed some light but the goal here did not seem to be finding the truth, just petpetuating misperceptions about those with lyme.
This entire paper was more about looking at how those on line behave, not so much about WHY we need to look elsewhere.
Why they negleted that is beyond me and very sad. Were Johnson, Weintraub and others of similar cailber to have been consulted, this could have had some kind of purpose.
Competing online viewpoints and models of chronic illness.
by Jennifer Mankoff, Kateryna Kuksenok, Jennifer A. Rode, Sara Kiesler, Kelly Waldman
Excerpt: Page 8; column 1; paragraph 2:
. . . Over time, participants began to take on what Castells characterizes as a “defensive identity” that can lead to the formation of a community designed to resist, and ultimately change, the current cultural norm [9].
Thus the negative feedback participants received
led them to identify with a new community of people, “Lymies,” as they developed a new understanding of their disease. . . . (end excerpt). -
Posted by beaches (Member # 38251) on :
Keebler you are 100% correct.
And thanks for continually reminding us that the term "lymie" is degrading and insulting to people suffering from Lyme Disease.
It is rather disturbing to me that so-called medical articles have described "us" in this manner.
We most certainly are not "a new community of people, "Lymies," as they developed a new understanding of their disease..."
There's nothing "new" to understand. Thanks to IDSA guidelines, Lyme Disease is STILL considered hard to get and easy to cure once you have it. What BS.
We collectively are patients who are sick with a chronic, persistent infection that is difficult to detect and even more difficult to cure.
And let's not even mention co-infections which obviously complicate matters much more so.
It is absurd that so-called scientists do not consider the works of Weintraub, Johnson, McDonald.
At the end of the day, justice will prevail as it always does.
Until then, do not refer to me or my family members as "lymies."
Posted by Shiela (Member # 28681) on :
I hadn't really given it any thought. When I was diagnosed with MS and joined an MS forum, it was common practice there to call ourselves 'MSers', so it never even occurred to me that someone would object to the term 'Lymies'. I don't think anyone would think of people with MS in an insulting way even though the term MSer was used. In this age of fast communication and shortcuts, it's easier to say 'MSer' than 'people or persons with Multiple Sclerosis'. Similarly, the terms 'dx' and 'sx' are used instead of 'diagnosis' or 'symptoms'. It doesn't really bother me to be called a Lymie unless it was done intentionally derogatively and I'm not aware of anyone who has done that to me or anyone else.
However, I'm glad you brought this our attention because I don't want to offend anyone here so I will refrain from using it.
It does seem more medically correct to say one has 'Lyme Complex' since it affects so many systems and carries co-infections. Not everyone with 'Lyme Complex' is a 'Lyme advocate' however.
Posted by healthywealthywise (Member # 8595) on :
It's true....lymies makes it sound like a fun party group. I have the same ugh reaction when I hear lymes, lyme community (I didn't buy real estate or sign up for this!)....
I don't have only lyme, but an added bonus of a fistful of other TBD's who signed up for the ride too.
I think that's why people don't get it under the "LYME" moniker. They think well you took the abx they says 'cures' it, so you should be better.
ARGGHHHH! They treated the original octopus head but never addressed all of the poisonous tentacles hanging beneath the surface. That's why the usual cure didn't work...plus the jerks who misdiagnosed me from the beginning, 20+ years ago allowed my body to become toxic even to itself. (tell me again why we can't sue these arrogant flucks?)
I even cringe from moving from lyme disease to tickborne illness b/c we all know it's not just ticks that carry and transfer these diseases.
I believe we have to use STRONG WORDS to name this life altering total systemic crisis! WE NEED FIGHTING/DESCRIPTIVE WORDS TO GET THE SEVERITY OF IT UNDERSTOOD.
So let's get our creative juices together and give it a new name that will not garner sympathy (god I hate faux sympathy the worst) but make people see it's not just a limping or soreness creating condition. WE KNOW IT IS DEADLY and LIFE ALTERING HELL.
Some words that come to me top of mind?
-plague -pathosis -epidemic -system collapse -pandemic -contagion -hydra (see octopus example above) -pestilence -scourge -legal murder at the hands of bad doctors and testing methods, insurance denials for treatment, pharma disregard, etc???????????
and the list could go on and on.....but to us, WE HAVE ALL OF IT.
Posted by GretaM (Member # 40917) on :
Legal Medical Negligence and Intended Medical Neglect
Pandemic
Life Threatening Infection
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- As this thread has gone to p. 2, here's the link again (that may not be seen back on p. 1):
When I responded, I thought they wanted to know more about the educational side of patient self-research via the web. Seems I was unclear as to what they wanted to prove. The reasons why were not of concern, just behavior that deviated from the norm.
Topic: CALL FOR PARTICIPANTS: study of individuals managing Lyme disease -
Posted by Robin123 (Member # 9197) on :
Good question, healthywealthy - it's a challenge to come up with brief phrases that say what's going on.
First idea: pathogenic pandemic, since it's a mix of pathogens and it's pandemic.
Posted by lax mom (Member # 38743) on :
If it were called a pandemic, Lyme would get the respect and fear it deserves.
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
I still say if some very high ranking politician or say angelina jolie or somebody got a serious case of lyme then maybe just maybe somebody might pay attention. But they would sweep it under the rug and ignore it.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
We've had lots of celebrities get Lyme .. nothing has changed.
Posted by lax mom (Member # 38743) on :
Yep, celebrities, even a president had Lyme. What's it truly gonna take to change things?
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
One of them dying.....
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- There have been many deaths from tick-borne infection. They are just not attributed to TBD (but to other causes, that can certainly result from TBD) in the final certificates. [TBD = Tick-Borne Disease]
One's fame, social, political or financial stature can help those in such positions to obtain better care - and also better "whitewash" explanations in the press. With better care, of course, they stand a better chance. But that is not always the case, either.
Still, I can think of some who have not made it and some who are chronically ill who could certainly be dealing with TBD.
To honor those whose lives have been cut short by tick-borne disease: ------------
Success & Progress posts -
Posted by LisaK (Member # 41384) on :
wow! I jsut ran across this post.
SORRY to Keebler! for all the times I said it , and to anyonw else it offends, but
I never menat it as a bad or negative thing! I actually came up with the word myself when I first started reading about lyme and the people that suffer with it.
I must say, though, that I find it extremely endearing of a name! and I will continue to use it as saying "sufferer, patient, advocate, etc." are all so formal and rigid and non familiar.
when I use the word Lymie I use it ONLY for those I know of or acquainted with who have tick borne disease.
If I didn't have it myself I don't think I would call anyone that name since it would be then a negative slang term.....
so now that I have said that, I can see how this kind of relates to THE N WORD.... Hmmmmmm.... I know people that call themselves and their friends (the N word). I really hate that. maybe this is kind of how you feel Keebler et al.?
I might be upset if I read it used in a professional journal entry or something.
Sheila, that is interesting- MSers. So "Lymers" anyone?????? is that bad too?
I am in the habit of shortening things I can because I am like the person above- like things fast and easy to say.
the other word I use to describe almost everyone with any disease - for the sake of shortening and ease- is "___" person. cancer person, lyme person, MS person.....
that's all I got.
feel free to call me a lymie. there are much worse things I have been called! haha
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Lisa,
I appreciate that you "when I use the word Lymie I use it ONLY for those I know of or acquainted with who have tick borne disease." (end quote)
and are wondering what other term might be an endearment or descriptive term.
The thing is that this is a public web and when it's used even here, or especially on world-wide-facebook type of sites, everyone thinks that's okay then. And it grows. Those dealing with lyme have enough of a hard time as it is to be taken seriously (as not having the "yuppie flu") . . . .
As for other terms, when posting about certain symptoms or stuff that tends to affect "those with lyme" (that works) --- "those dealing with lyme" --- juggling all this -- managing -- facing --
Yet in more information conversation when not talking medical stuff but just life stuff, you can address the particular person you are replying to with "sweetie" (IF that fits for those you already "know" of course and they don't feel that to be condescending - the web can be very tricky in that way).
You "dear hearts" (or "dear hearts and gentle people") . . . "you fabulous folks" . . . I wish I could think of more. It's a talent to really punctuate our speech and I'm more of one who can identify that talent in others but must not have been in that line the day it was being handed out.
I always like "Happy Campers" or (not) happy camper. Wish I were smarter than the average bear to come up with a few nice endearments for our time. -
Posted by Ann-OH (Member # 2020) on :
YAY Keebler! I pointed out how cutsie terms for disease sufferers was inappropriate to a couple of people who were using "lymies" in newsletters in the early 1990's, before even Lymenet was invented.
I still cringe when I hear or see it.
You are a sweetie! Ann - OH
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Ann,
I appreciate your comment and emphasis on how it's such a kick in the gut in so many ways.
I'll certainly take "sweetie" (in this context). Thanks, Cowgirl in Ohio! (Bet you'd like to ride a horse into a cool sunset?) -
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
well, y'all, it's been awhile and guess what? still don't care.
it's ok for doctors to say we're nuts, psychosomatic, or whatever, but, hey, we all know their gods right? and no one questions what they are allowed to call us. now that makes me mad.
otherwise, y'all know I speak to you with great affection. however, you do know when a southerner says something about you and then says "bless your heart" then you're in trouble!!!!
I'm waiting to see who understands that one....lol
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- When we put ourselves down with (what some say to them is) an insulting nickname, it then gives permission to others to do the same thing right back at us, and they won't usually stop with just that insulting nickname that says this is all just "child's play"
If we (as an individual person) don't care, that's one thing. But when many do & voice that, and there is a professional matter of integrity at stake - this is about serious disease that has terribly altered our lives in devastating ways -- it does matter for others. It's about respect. -
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
and how do we get doctors to respect us if they think we're crazy?
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Not in answer to the question but any doctor who actually uses "crazy" is insulting everyone who has any kind of mental health issue. Most may not use that term but other terms and innuendos can be just as insulting and show their lack of education in such an important area of medicine.
But I know what you mean. Even if they don't use a "trigger word" they can imply it. And we can identify when that occurs.
So, back to your question.
Q: "and how do we get doctors to respect us if they think we're crazy?"
Why would we WANT to try? And why would we keep trying once they declare themselves, so to speak?
It's never going to happen. It's a waste of time, energy & money.
Don't go to those. Vet them first with all available resources (support group experiences, their affiliations, the writings, etc.).
Get educated about what we can do for ourselves for certain symptoms. There is so much we can do for ourselves in many aspects.
Especially, don't go back if you first walked into a mistake. If we return, we signal loud & clear that we agree with them. They've already shown their colors. It's co-dependent to the max to say we "neeeeeeddd" them when they've already discounted us and there is no way they even want to learn enough to help.
As you leave (or arrive) somehow, see if you can quietly and without attention, look a the inside first page of your medical file with that office.
If "difficult patient" is marked there. Turn around and never go back. You will never get proper care.
Don't talk ourselves down in any way or with any term at all. Don't defend yourself and say "I'm not 'crazy'" because all they hear is "crazy" - they will not hear the "not" - ever . . .
. . . never, ever (should we utter that or similar terms- or go back to those doctors who are of that vein to so easily believe that. It speaks of their character and their lack of abilities & education).
Don't defend yourself when put down by a doctor (it's never a situation that is going to have a good outcome when we are in such a position with a doctor).
Standing up for yourself, though, is a very different thing. Keep it short & simple - a statement, not a beg for acceptance. Keep the tone solid and stay centered inside your head and heart. And move on out in a composed manner (as much as possible, even if limping or dizzy . . . stay centered).
The difference between "defending" yourself and "standing up" for yourself can be nuanced. Mostly, defending means we are trying to convince them. Forget that.
Standing up for yourself: . . . state your position briefly, do express yourself yet stay centered and keep dignity. Do not beg or try to convince.
And, aside from lyme / TBD issues . . . there are still some good doctors out there for routine or other care. Find them. I still have a great deal of respect for those who deserve it (even if the numbers dwindle once lyme enters even by a whisper and is not about the appointment, per se).
There are doctors who can still consider that a patient dealing with lyme has a complex case they are not primary doctor to, but they are working only on one basic aspect of care at that time. -
[ 07-30-2014, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by LisaK (Member # 41384) on :
I DID see some "lymie" words on some Lyme clothing for sale on the web today when searching for a T-shirt.
I would never buy something that says lymie on it.
I do stick to it though, that you all here are my lymie friends. and that is my term of endearment for this great crowd from my perspective.
I usually only use the word when I am talking to my best friend about what you all say here or do and the great advice I get.
I will try not to type it here in reference to people again. Again, sorry for that in the past as I never thought about it.
Posted by MichaelTampa (Member # 24868) on :
quote:Originally posted by randibear: I still say if some very high ranking politician or say angelina jolie or somebody got a serious case of lyme then maybe just maybe somebody might pay attention. But they would sweep it under the rug and ignore it.
how about "w"? high-ranking enough? doesn't change anything, just gets ridiculed for being stupid.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Lisa,
It's hard to know how to explain the pain that term brings. If someone dealing with lyme cannot hear that from someone else dealing with lyme, how will doctors ever treat anyone with lyme with the respect they deserve?
I am not your lymie friend. I am no one's lymie friend. It's an insult for me (as someone here, addressed in this group) to be called that, again, when it's been discussed how that makes me feel.
You're not just posting to feel good yourself about certain terms when they address others. How the others feel, too, is imperative.
Please reconsider holding onto that term. If a feeling of connectedness brings you pleasure, that's great.
But by calling others insulting nicknames, now matter how cute it may sound to some ears, it just tears through the hearts of others. There must be a term that will not do that.
And imagine those who are not able to voice this for themselves, bedbound, unable to move, misdiagnosed, close to death. Imagine those whose lives have been lost to lyme. Do we want to reduce them to a nickname that some have used as in insult in certain circles? That's what "lymie" does.
It does not translate for everyone the way it does in your ears. There is danger in that word, danger of continued hurt. This illness brings tremendous hurt and disrespect. It's brought many close to the end; it has taken some past it.
And hearing, seeing "lymie" can just push all those buttons. Big time. It brings home the harsh reality, the depth of it all.
I know that my reaction may be felt more deeply than some others may. Lyme brings enough pain and torture. We don't need to be demeaned any further. We can find words that convey the desired intent that the receiver can also feel good about. -
[ 07-31-2014, 02:10 AM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
Competing online viewpoints and models of chronic illness.
by Jennifer Mankoff, Kateryna Kuksenok, Jennifer A. Rode, Sara Kiesler, Kelly Waldman
Excerpt: Page 8; column 1; paragraph 2:
. . . Over time, participants began to take on what Castells characterizes as a “defensive identity” that can lead to the formation of a community designed to resist, and ultimately change, the current cultural norm [9].
Thus the negative feedback participants received
led them to identify with a new community of people, “Lymies,” as they developed a new understanding of their disease. . . . (end excerpt).
-------------
To that I say: Like Hell. -
Posted by Dogsandcats (Member # 28544) on :
Ha ha Randi- I totally get it. I had lunch with friends who are moving to Missouri next week.
I gave them the same advice- you can say anything you want to someone- and it will be ok- as long as you follow it with "Bless their heart" or "Bless your heart"
This is written with a light heart and smile. As I am from a "Bless your heart" family, I hope I do not offend.
Lymie does not offend me, but we all have our opinions and feelings. To each his own......
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- There are other word-labels that offend some but not others, too.
If something diminishes one, it diminishes all. The ways just may not be apparent at first glance. -
Posted by beaches (Member # 38251) on :
Keebler is 1000% correct on this issue.
Do not refer to me as as a "Lymie," bless your heart!
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
I guess keebler we have to disagree on this one. but I will refrain from using the term.
but I will remain the querulous virago that I am.
Posted by LisaK (Member # 41384) on :
well I don't find lymie insulting- dindn't even think about it until I came across this old post.
I HATE when people call me "sweetie" or "honey" or anything else that sounds like maple syrup unless they are my grandmother or someone else EXTREMELY close to me and even then I may CRINGE a little about it!
but... I dont tell people this when it happens as there are bigger fish to fry as far as I am concerned.
I already said I won't use the L word here any more as long as I can remember. that is the BEST I can do.
as far as people feeling good here and others helping them acheive that, well, isn't that the whole idea of on line forums? to feel good? be connected to something? share? ?????? if I didn't feel good about posting here why would I bother to do so?
I happen to be one of those people that goes on with their unmerry little lives without having to point out to every person that offends me that they are doing so.
If I did, and if everyone else did this, it sure would be one bitter sobby place to be, in my opinion. People ruffle my feathers and insult me and actually down right hurt me almost every day of my life.
I have, more than once, had my feelings hurt here by a number of people. too bad, that is what I say.
it is the price for being human and going on line to share my life here with strangers.
I just want to be me.
I walk on enough eggshells. the thought of typing on them makes me sad.
maybe this shouldn't be a public forum. does anyone know of any private ones?
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by LisaK:
I happen to be one of those people that goes on with their unmerry little lives without having to point out to every person that offends me that they are doing so.
- Exactly.
Bless your little pea-picking heart! Posted by Thyme2heal726 (Member # 45908) on :
I changed it to "Lyme Initiate"
I DO feel that it is an initiation into the deepest parts of yourself in many ways
Thanks for the tip Family Posted by Lymieloo (Member # 45753) on :
quote:Originally posted by randibear: however, you do know when a southerner says something about you and then says "bless your heart" then you're in trouble!!!!
I'm waiting to see who understands that one....lol
Heheh...I have an aunt from Texas, so yeah, I know about the "Bless your heart" stuff!
And I don't care about being called "Lymie", heck it's part of username here! In fact I purposefully made it worse by spelling the second part of it "loo" (as in the British slang for bathroom) instead of "lou", like the name.
And no, my name isn't Lou, Louise, Louisa, or anything close. But I thought "loo" was appropriate because, thanks to what I now know to be Lyme, I'm ALWAYS in the loo, even if I go for a long time without drinking anything! lol
But then, I have a goofy sense of humor and laugh at myself a lot, because I really do believe the old saying about how, "If you can't laugh at yourself...." I was once reading something about Aspberger's Syndrome and they were saying how people who have it call themselves "aspies" (even though they've changed the medical name now).
But I think I can somewhat understand where the rest of you are coming from as far as the world not taking this seriously enough. And I must admit I found it a bit disturbing that the docs, researchers, and others in the medical community are referring to us as Lymies. I may personally have a goofy sense of humor, but a goofy sense of humor is definitely NOT needed in medical journals, articles, etc. I agree that this was disrespectful.
Now I know this is going to sound hypocritical, but I think for me it comes down to a sort of "It's o.k. for me and certain others to call myself/each other that, but the rest of you had better not" kind of thing.
For instance, it's perfectly o.k. for me to tell one of my girlfriends something like, "I feel so bad about last night, I was being such a b**** to my husband," but let my husband (or any other man, and most women, unless they're close friends and I know they're joking) call me that and watch it hit the fan! lol
And some people even use racial slurs that way, it's o.k. for them but no one else and you know, I get that. It doesn't bother me at all. And I think it's not so much that people are trying to be hypocrites in doing that, I think it's just that when we use terms like that like between ourselves -- whoever "ourselves" might be -- we feel safe doing that because within our group, whether it's something that sounds like a racial slur,
or the b-word between girlfriends, or "Lymies", "MSers" or "Aspies" or whatever, we KNOW that these words are either terms of endearment or if not that (I wouldn't call "b****" a term of endearment!) then at worst, a joke. We're only joking with each other, and WE know that, but if someone else comes along and says the same thing, we don't know if they're joking around or not. And it usually seems that they're not!
So, I don't care about being called a "Lymie", except perhaps by the medical community. And the world in general -- meaning those who are clueless about Lyme and don't give a hoot about us anyway. Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- It's hard to explain when it is used in a nice way in closed circles that those circles are open view - & nicknames have a way of being kicked about.
The tendency is that if someone says their name is "Al" others will call them "Al" - everywhere.
Why this matters:
If we want the world to take this illness and those who have been dealt this hand seriously, nicknames ending in "ie" can have the opposite effect. The sing-song sound in some ears sounds like playful song.
Would we call those with cancer "Cancies" or those with Parkinson's "Parkies" - etc.? Of course not.
Such school yard nicknames can seriously undermine the serious nature of lyme and those who deal with it, in all its very grown up complexities.
[When I first posted this, I wrote that] I don't "do" Facebook (just too overwhelming) but have noticed references lately to more and more Facebook pages with a headline of "Lymie" and it makes me very sad to think this is for the world to see us, as club with a cute name.
I think it undermines the integrity of a person with lyme in the eyes of others who do not understand.
Again, Would we call those with cancer "Cancies" or those with Parkinson's "Parkies" - etc.? No. It would be seen as an insult and demeaning. -
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Pulling from page one, as those who click on at this point won't see this:
How are those who deal with lyme seen to the world?
Not in a good light, apparently when some professional Paper calls those with lyme "Lymies" - petpetuating misperceptions about those with lyme.
Competing online viewpoints and models of chronic illness.
by Jennifer Mankoff, Kateryna Kuksenok, Jennifer A. Rode, Sara Kiesler, Kelly Waldman
Excerpt: Page 8; column 1; paragraph 2:
. . . Over time, participants began to take on what Castells characterizes as a “defensive identity” that can lead to the formation of a community designed to resist, and ultimately change, the current cultural norm [9].
Thus the negative feedback participants received
led them to identify with a new community of people, “Lymies,” as they developed a new understanding of their disease. . . .
. . . Participants worked to increase their new model’s legitimacy by engaging in activist behaviors. . . .
(end excerpt).
Very insulting to those with lyme. Be sure to go to the place of the excerpt for fuller explanation of how authors insist "Lymies" are just wrong.
Again, serious doubt as to if they would refer to those with cancer as "Cancies" etc. You can bet they would not. Would those with cancer refer to themselves as such, either? -
[ 05-28-2015, 08:15 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by beaches (Member # 38251) on :
Totally agree with Keebler on this. Do not call me or my kids a "lymie."
Posted by Abxnomore (Member # 18936) on :
I don't see the problem with it. That's what we called ourselves for years until it became politically incorrect. At least we had a label at a time when many didn't even have a diagnosis.
Posted by LisaK (Member # 41384) on :
I call us "lyme people" now. I used to use lymie because I actually thought I made it up! now it has lost it's novelty with me and I don't like it any more., but....
if I do read it in a published article it does get me uptight! I , when used it, used it only ONLY in personal settings to include those near and dear to me as in a special club or something.
Keebler, I understand and appreciate your thoughts here on this. but, no matter how hard anyone tries to get rid of something- anything!- there will always forever be someone that doesn't care what other people think, b) always be that person that does it for spite! , c) always be some one new (like I was) that thinks they invented it!
iin other words, please don't lose sleep over this! you are worth way more than that!!! Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- We do not need nicknames. We do not need labels. Especially when used out of spite to hurt others.
"lyme people" can be used in a very demeaning fashion, too. This is about how the world see us, what they think by the cute nicknames some choose, even if well meaning and wanting to be inclusive of all.
Important reference, the "oh, YOU people" or "your people" remarks have been used for many years out of hate toward certain groups. What works around a café table with no ill intent does not work for entire groups.
This is about dignity. If the use of labels or nicknames demeans, it strips dignity. When a nickname is used by one in a public setting as a discussion board, others in the wider world think that is okay. Nicknames, labels, do not instill dignity.
When someone says they are insulted by something, they are insulted by something. This is about all who have lyme, not just a few who don't mind or even like a cute name because it makes them feel closer to others. There are many ways to achieve that connection without causing pain to others.
When continuing use of cute nick names out of spite, that is not thinking about what is best for others. It's making them wear the same team jackets with the team letter on it, a brand not of their choosing and one that can set them up to be made less in the eyes of others elsewhere.
And when authors of professional articles start using nicknames against a group of those who have an illness, it would seem time to stop use of such nicknames and labels - of ANY nicknames or labels - and try to move forward in a better stance. -
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
don't forget that many many doctors do not believe in lyme. I've been labelld hypochondriac, depressed, suicidal, anti-social, etc. and this by so-called professionals.
so how can people believe in lyme when we are called these names by people who should know better.
fibro is the same. we dont have flu, a bug, or anything else.
until the medical profession starts accepting it, it's an uphill battle.
I get more upset with the doctors putting false info in my records than I do over this term.
everything about lyme is upsetting.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
I say "Lyme patients" but have no problem with "Lymies" amongst "Lymies."
There are bigger fish to fry than this.
Posted by Abxnomore (Member # 18936) on :
And that is how the term was always used since it's inception many, many years ago, among and between those who have or had Lyme Disease. There's nothing wrong with that.
As already mentioned above, in the scheme of things considering all the things we "Lymies" face it's not worth getting worked up about. We certainly have bigger fish to fry, especially over in the Activism and Medical section.
Posted by LisaK (Member # 41384) on :
ok. well. I call everyone here "lymenet" so I am sure that is acceptable. outside of this place no one is really interested in hearing about the lyme populous, so I just will call us nothing I suppose.
Posted by Lymieloo (Member # 45753) on :
So here's a question -- does my username bother some of you a lot? Like I said before, I have learned to laugh at myself, and when that silly name popped into my head as I was registering here, that's what I was doing -- laughing at myself. NOT laughing about having Lyme....I dunno, it seemed to flow with "loo".
Having Lyme is hell. Bit by bit over the years, my life has been ripped away...a bit here, a bit there. I can no longer travel, and I used to be a person who loved to travel, even if it involved a long road trip.
Now I can't even make the hour drive to see my daughter and granddaughter -- haven't been able to since my granddaughter was born in '13. I have a 7 year old granddaughter who lives a bit closer and loves to come stay here, but I haven't been able to have her for months.
As for a weekend away somewhere, well, we talk about it a lot but never do it. My husband absolutely hates driving, so he's really only willing to drive one-way, and that's if it's only a two or three hour drive to wherever.
He expects me to drive the other half, but I never sleep well enough before these trips to be safe behind the wheel. And while we're away, I don't sleep, so I'm no good driving home. Not to mention how getting only a few hours of crummy sleep the entire weekend makes the whole mini "vacation" a LOT less fun. So why bother?
I can never commit to anything, because I never know how I'll feel, if I'll even be able to do whatever is was someone asked me to do. I know this makes me look like a weasel and I feel terrible about it, but I figure it's better than making promises or commitments I may well not be able to keep.
I've always been slim -- not a toothpick, but a slender hourglass shape that turned into something more like a whiskey barrel when I got hypothyroidism.
No amount or type of meds, workouts, supplements (including for adrenals), or diets has worked, even years ago when I was still able to work out 6 days a week. Hard. In fact I was doing very intense workouts up until Feb. of this year, if only 4 days a week.
I saw my doc a week ago and she said that now she knows that I have Lyme, that totally explains it because, as she said, "Your entire endocrine system has been messed up. So don't even try to lose weight, at least not for now." In other words, nothing is going to help. Lovely. Just lovely.
And on and on it goes, with more bizarre sx and pain than most people can imagine, as you all well know, because you're going through the same type of c***.
All this to say that even though I'm something of a clown, a goofball, who's number one requirement for a husband was a great sense of humor, and even though I have no problem laughing at myself, I DO NOT take Lyme itself lightly. In fact, I've seen posts where someone laughingly calls themselves a "lymebrain", and I've probably done that myself. I know I have in my life away from the computer!
But I understand the worry about the pinheads in the medical field, and the world in general, not taking Lyme seriously, and I understand why it may be irritating when "outsiders" who either don't know or don't care about Lyme and what it does to us, breezily refer to us as "Lymies". I think it's a valid concern.
So if a bunch of you are really upset by my username, I'm willing to change it. I know, no one ever pointed a finger at my username -- thank you for that, you all have been really nice, and I love this board! That's why I don't want to offend people, so if my username is a big problem, I'll change it.
If I can. Not sure how that works here, if someone even can change their name. But after reading the posts, I can see how "Lymieloo" might be like fingernails on a chalkboard, and I can already be annoying enough without adding insult to injury! Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
I would not worry one bit over your user name. Just go with the flow!
It's not that easy to change it either .. so just go with it!
Posted by Abxnomore (Member # 18936) on :
I totally agree. You're user name is fine and not a problem at all. I have been well for a very long time and if have a brain blip I still refer to it as "lyme brain". Posted by Robin123 (Member # 9197) on :
Reading through this thread, I'd like to remind everyone that Lymenet Terms and Conditions Number 4 says that everyone gets to enjoy use of the Lymenet board.
To this end, everyone has a right to express their opinion, but does not have a right to tell others how they should think, because that is infringing on others' rights to have and express their opinions!
Some people here do not like the term "Lymie" and some are ok with it. All opinions need to be free to be expressed.
In having this dialogue, people may end up convincing others that indeed, they hadn't thought about another point of view, and now they will consider it. So some people will change their minds here. And some won't, and they have that right too.
I think people on all sides of the question have made themselves clear at this point in time! We are a plural community, not a single-minded community. No one way of looking at things is going to prevail.
Please respect everyone's experience here, even as you discuss different ways of looking at things.
Posted by Lymieloo (Member # 45753) on :
Well, the points about not being taken seriously by others really did get me thinking and looking at things from different point of view, and that's a good thing.
But on the othw hand Robin and Lymetoo, you've convinced me to not bother with trying to change it. Sounds like a pain anyway! Thanks for your input.
Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
Your name bothers me. That is why I am calling you wild child and look the other way when your posts come up.
Kind of like a doctor once said when I asked if he took Medicare. He said he doesn't take it, he tolerates it.
Like the Confederate flag. Some see it as a hate symbol. It was never made to be one, but some still think hate when they see it and are uncomfortable.
I tend to not wave it in the face of those folks who don't like it for whatever reason, just to be respectful. I also try to not take it with me to their homes or drape it across myself when riding my horse through town at night.
When in Rome, do what the Romans do.
Posted by LisaK (Member # 41384) on :
hmmmmm, there are many names on here that bother me, and not because of what they say, but the fact they are hard to type out for a reply.
I find them sort of interesting to see what people consider a lyme name and or it , to me, is a window into their current, or for some long past, relationship with lyme.
'tincup' or ' keebler' my imagination goes on its own.... tincup could actually be a person that begs on the street or maybe it is the name of the cup on a golf green, and keebler is a cookie or maybe a nick name . most people think my real name is lisa, but the site clearly states not to use our real name so I use the name I always wanted as a child.
and not to single anyone out Tincup or Keebler- but I play this game of mine with every name here. that's just the creative in me. some I don't like at all and some make me chuckle, some make me sad and some make me mad. but to quote one of the most famous lines in all of history:
"What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
ha. eevrything, it seems.... everything.
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
I think your name is cute. you probably are too.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Lymieloo... Tincup is KIDDING!!! She is famous for that!!
Posted by linky123 (Member # 19974) on :
quote:
I say "Lyme patients" but have no problem with "Lymies" amongst "Lymies."
There are bigger fish to fry than this.
Couldn't agree more.
Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lymetoo: Lymieloo... Tincup is KIDDING!!! She is famous for that!!
Yeah, don't believe a word she says!
I always used the word "Lymies" and never thought anything of it. Now that I'm better, I don't refer to myself that way anymore, so it wasn't like I was giving myself a label that stuck.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Posted by Lymieloo (Member # 45753) on :
Ohmygosh, thanks Lymetoo and Sixgoofykids! I really thought she was mad at me! Whew!
And Abxnomore, I meant to thank you as well in my last post for the encouragement. I didn't see your post, probably because hubby was on the computer so I was using my Kindle, and when the keyboard is visible it's kind of a pain to read anything above it.
As for YOU Tincup -- this is for you. And you can call me Wild Child, or whatever floats your boat, as long as it's not TOO mean! Although I'm really not so wild anymore....more like a freespirit. Maybe that should have been my username. Dang! I just remembered what my mom sometimes called me when I was little -- Loudmouth Lime! I am not kidding.
Oh well, too late now. But if any new people want that name, I'd love to give it away (thanks a lot Mom).
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
y'all do know that the english were at one time. called lymies.
honest..
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Lymieloo.. Glad we headed you off at the pass!! That Tincup can get pretty wild herself!!
At least now you know her true colors!
Very true, randi! Too many limes on those ocean voyages!
(limeys)
Posted by Robin123 (Member # 9197) on :
That's what someone said when I asked them if they knew anything about Lyme - "Isn't that what sailors get?" Someone ought to make a name related to that sometime...NotASailorLymie?
Lymieloo, we'll call you LooLooBelle here...
How about this name - LooLooTickToMyLoo. It's singable...
Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
Drats!
You guys aren't much fun you know. I really wanted her to think I ride through town at night wearing a Confederate flag draped over me and my horse, especially after calling HER a wild child.
Hey! That`s better than Six does, I mean Lady Godiva, at least I`d be wearing something!
Oh well, another day, another member to mess with. And NO chocolate for TuTu or Six. Silly girls!
Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
As for you Loudmouth Lime. HA!
Need I say more?
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
shame on y'all. bless your hearts....
Posted by LisaK (Member # 41384) on :
OMGolly gee Tincup- you got me. I was really confused about that flag! haha.
o boy.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
I want chocolate now .. or NOW!!!
Posted by LisaK (Member # 41384) on :
Keebler quote: "No one would call cancer patients "cancies" just because they seek out more information about their illness or form a support group."
I always HATED that "save the tatas" slogan. to me that is just wrong all around. there have been other just as tasteless and notsofunny funnies associated with cancer. and millions of people thought they were all the rage- and including cancer people.
anyway.....
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Rather doubt a twelve year old, new to all this, would want to be called "lymie" by their GP, their family members, teachers or classmates.
Would you want "lymies" bantered around congress as they decide the fate of this group. Historically, "limey's" use for sailors from England was used as INSULT.
The point here is the that the context of "lymie" is that for the wider world to think it's okay when those with lyme are insulted by the medical world, and others.
This is not about if on this board some like things cute, cutsie or light. This is the bigger picture.
The schoolgirl, the grandfather that no one believes. Think they want to be called "lymie"? This is about their dignity. -
Posted by LisaK (Member # 41384) on :
I have never seen nor heard anyone proffessional call us lyme people lymies. where did this happen??? can you send me links?
or is there just a fear it will happen??
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
Competing online viewpoints and models of chronic illness.
by Jennifer Mankoff, Kateryna Kuksenok, Jennifer A. Rode, Sara Kiesler, Kelly Waldman
Excerpt: Page 8; column 1; paragraph 2:
. . . Over time, participants began to take on what Castells characterizes as a “defensive identity” that can lead to the formation of a community designed to resist, and ultimately change, the current cultural norm [9].
Thus the negative feedback participants received
led them to identify with a new community of people, “Lymies,” as they developed a new understanding of their disease. . . . (end excerpt). -------------
As one reads further, it's very clear that the authors do not understand lyme nor do they think well of anyone who has "chronic" lyme. Those with lyme are not being spoken here in a good way.
The point is that we - here on this board - when we perpetuate that term, we hand over permission to anyone - anywhere - anytime - to also use it and as above that is more likely to an insult and serves to infantilize those with chronic lyme. The paper above is just one example of that. -
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
many may disagree with it but it won't change things. some people are still going to use it. you'd have to battle the entire country.
we don't have the resources to do that.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- We can act by not using the term , not perpetuating it. Don't need resources to just not be a part of it oneself, just the will to extend dignity and hope it sends a good message. -
Posted by LisaK (Member # 41384) on :
I mean, is there somewhere that actually shows a dr or other professional using that word to label us?
I am trying to figure it out if you are just upset that ANYONE uses it, or you are afraid it will become the norm for everyone to use?
I have never heard it used or seen it written , except on one blog (and here) to actually describe a large populous of lyme infected peoples.
I need proof. that's how I roll.
not saying I think it's right or wrong, just wanna know. for my own sake.
randibear, yes, and to use the parallel of blacks calling themselves the N word..... it will probably never stop in our lifetime.
Posted by LisaK (Member # 41384) on :
how about "LII" for lyme inflicted individual? no, then they might call us all Liiers.
or let's really get the ball rolling with bringing out the real issue of all tick disease. I think "lyme" is on the way out already, in my opinion and the new improved honor would include any and all tick diseases! right? I mean if we want to do this rigth, we ourselves have to stop painting this picture with only one single "bad guy"- lyme. when there are many other things out there from ticks.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Lisa,
Four professors from these universities participated in that professional paper posted above where the term is "defined" so to speak (in their error, I do think, but still, they banter it about as it's a new word for the dictionary with the intent to infantilize & demean a population):
1. Carnegie Mellon Pittsburgh, PA 15213
2. University of Washington, Seattle, WA 98195
3. Drexel University Philadelphia, PA 19104
4. Duke University Durham, NC 27708
-- Just last week, a new blog about lyme incorporated the term as a matter of fact definition as that's what she had seen somewhere else.
I contacted the author with the request to consider how the use of that term could affect others.
Home page of Blog: Chapter 2, Part VII
"Lymie (an individual with Lyme disease)"
She replied back that, after such consideration, the term had be changed to "lyme initiate".
She posted here - in this thread - as well. and that's what brought it up to the top again. -
Posted by LisaK (Member # 41384) on :
ok. I thought people were hearing their drs call them "lymies". so if you stopped it there hopefullly it will end the proliferation of this vexing homage.
Posted by Lymieloo (Member # 45753) on :
quote:Originally posted by Robin123: Lymieloo, we'll call you LooLooBelle here...
How about this name - LooLooTickToMyLoo. It's singable...
NOOOOOOOOO, please! Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
Lisa... you said.. "I mean, is there somewhere that actually shows a dr or other professional using that word to label us? ... I need proof. that's how I roll."
Here is an entire article by a NIH toad that once led the Lyme program and continues to spend his miserable energy blasting Lyme patients.
More mentions by so called professionals... and they are talking about LymeNet and its members here.
"So why the interest in Flagyl among the Lymees? Quackery and incompetence, of course. That is, quackery and incompetence among the so-called “Lyme Literate” docs who prey on—I mean treat—these unfortunate people."
"It’s been a busy week in LymeLand. There must have been some kind of nuthouse furlough recently because three Lymee wackjobs have just dumped a load of nonsense into the Internet, which in all fairness is basically what the 90% Internet is—a digital landfill for the mentally ill, the conspiracy-minded, the juvenile, and the criminal."
"I continue to marvel at the ability of these people to withstand so many simultaneous infectious agents—some of which have significant mortality rates. In the real world, most of us would be under a doctor’s care or in a hospital for any one of the above agents, but these online Lymees are tough, able to sit at home chatting on the Internet, and basking in the admiration and envy of their fellow LymeNuts. One such admirer writes:
…I wish I could get positives on some coinfections. They keep comin[g] up neg and I am constantly second guessing every treatment I get.
Well, with the right quack doctor and diagnostics company, I’m sure you will. Best of luck with your hypochondria."
"…the negative feedback participants received led them to identify with a new community of people, “Lymies,” as they developed a new understanding of their disease. Defense (hiding doctors) and resistance (advocacy, activism) are defining parts of this community. "
"The tea drinkers don’t seem to be having much success overthrowing reality. Neither do the anti-vaccination nuts. Or the AIDS denialists. Or the Lymees. Maybe they all should sit back, relax, and have a cup of decaf coffee. My treat."
As all can see, it has been used as a negative label by the IDSA supporters for a long time.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Gee, they can't even spell it.
Posted by Lymieloo (Member # 45753) on :
Wow, gotta love the moronic irony in that quote about AIDS deniers, while he's doing the exact same thing regarding Lyme.
Arrogant, ignorant hypocrite.
Posted by LisaK (Member # 41384) on :
who is this Edward McSweegan? I cna't read I am in so much pain... sorry.
he sounds like a real winner if he is writing all these things. I get the point and I see the damage, I just guess that keebler an dothers that agree lymie is wrong want to stop it before it gets bigger.
it just isn't main stream yet, and that is what I thought was happening, that's all.
Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
Seeing a lot of "Lymie" references, even in the media. Not nice. Bringing this up as a reminder.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Thanks for the reminder, Tincup. Each time I hear this or see it in a supposed information article - it's just a sharp stake to the heart compounding the fractures from years of doctors' insults & dismissals. -
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
what? did I miss something? save the tatas?
um aren't tatas boobs? what are tatas?
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Randibear,
The disparaging slang, whether posed in a question or not, is certainly language often used as insults to demean women (and also men, if calling them a "boob"). It seems that is the intent of the post, otherwise it serves no purpose other than to insult the posters here regarding a very tender issue. -
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And you can call me Wild Child, or whatever floats your boat, as long as it's not TOO mean! Although I'm really not so wild anymore....more like a freespirit. Maybe that should have been my username. Dang! I just remembered what my mom sometimes called me when I was little -- Loudmouth Lime! I am not kidding. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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