Hi. First of all let me say how incredibly comforting it is to know that I'm amongst company as a sick Christian! Of coarse I'd rather you be well, but I'll take your company sick or well. I need you! I was going to ask my question in the God Thought thread, but I didn't want that thread to go off onto a tangent.
I'm curious. How do all of you reconcile the fact that we're sick, with the truth that "By His wounds we are healed."(Isa 53:5)? I firmly believe that part of what Jesus did on the cross was to heal our bodies. It's OK if you disagree.
I'm also sure that most of you have heard and know the frustration of people saying that if you only had enough faith you'd be healed. I personally don't believe in degrees of faith. We either have faith or we don't. It's OK if you disagree with that as well.
What I'm wanting to know is: 1)How do each of you Christians reconcile the Biblical promises for healing with the fact that you're still sick and 2)How do you handle others' judgement that you're sick due to lack of faith. What do you say in return to these people? How do you not feel condemned? How do you reconcile the fact that you're sick with the truth that by Jesus' death and resurrection you were healed?
Thank you for your input, and God bless you!
Posted by Ellen (Member # 42834) on :
bump
Posted by lax mom (Member # 38743) on :
It's hard. I pray and pray.
I have been prayed for and have been to healing services.
Most recently, I have even been treated like I must be doing something wrong to still be sick after all of those prayers... like my faith must be weak or I must be cursed. This is all by fellow Christians.
Posted by lax mom (Member # 38743) on :
I have found myself staying away from those who have condemned me.
It still hurts though.
What helps me is the verse that talks about when I was in the valley of dry bones, the hand of the Lord was upon me, leading me.
Posted by hiker53 (Member # 6046) on :
Fortunately, I have not run across those who think that I am not healed due to lack of faith.
I am so much better than I was a few years ago and I know that God is healing me, but it may take a long time.
I also believe that what we think is healing is not what God thinks. He heals our wounds on the inside, but maybe not all of the physical ones (until heaven).
I just will never give up hope that one day I will be totally physically healed, but I have to be content with where I am at (and that is really hard).
Just keep surrounding yourself with positive Christians and keep immersed in God's Word.
Blessings.
Hiker53
Posted by GretaM (Member # 40917) on :
I believe God has a plan.
I don't know what it is, or how I fit into it, but God has a plan.
I think I appreciate the little things more, now that I am sick.
Before it was rush rush rush. Quantity quantity quantity.
Now I can appreciate the little things.
Like the smell of coffee brewing, a chickadee on my window sill, the sound of rain.
Before I didn't notice that.
Being sick has also weeded out the non-genuine people from my life. The ones here now are here for the longhaul.
Also, I forgive myself if I can't do something now. Before I would berate myself for something not being perfect. Now I congratulate myself for doing my best.
I also think lyme has made me a better person. I am more patient with folks and see the sunny side of them now.
Don't get me wrong. I am in a lot of pain, and pray to die quite often, but I do appreciate the little things.
God has a plan, and I am game with whatever God needs me to do.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
I agree that being "healed" may not be what WE think it means. Perhaps it means being spiritually healed. Or it could mean that as long as we "accept" the healing in our hearts and bodies, the REAL healing will happen.
It's all a mystery that one day we will understand completely.
I do believe in miraculous healings. I've heard enough stories that I do believe it happens. Also, we don't always receive instant healing. It may take place over many months or many years.
So .. continue to pray and believe! Posted by payne (Member # 26248) on :
good share Greata, Humble was never me, now it lives deep in my very way.. remembering all is in The Lord's Time, I know of plenty of sick christians.. lyme or not. short on faith and belief brings you to sickness ?, really study JOB.. I find that the closer the Lord draws me to HIM the less this flesh means.. to a point of I want so bad to be rid of this body of failing parts.. I smile at this thread Ellen, when those throw rocks, those of course being better and sin free.. kill me and send me on my way.(" most of my glory is when God is Planing my life.. most of my guilt layed in the days, I was planning MY way.. Once The Lord touches or seeds are set By the spirit... I find most folks begin to see the sparrow and the meek..humbling US. then there is US that have slept with the devil, and LOST all to darkness and wicked ways. and now we stand together and reclaim our loss, our lives.. our happiness. so I and many here, have looked the devil in the eye and he bores me.. whom better to be at the mercy and Grace of The Lord then those that know their enemy well, after all he was a angel - a well known angel. think any angel in The Kingdom don't now His capabilities. God wants US all.. the devil wants us all.. God Loves us. the devil don't care. you came onto God Thought as I was being more open and sharing of my personel struggles that I shared.. simplly to ill to go to the family big party. almost erased it when I bumped your words. I may still delete it.. but, as sick as our friends are and me too we still cling to HOPE. God has brought me from the do all guy I was to the do what I need guy.. Huge change, but, God's Will... God alone knows my life my hairs on my head.. and where I will be..and been. If LYME brought me here, which I doubt. It has given me time now to study The Word and PRAYER..learning much about love from others here. As, a strong man, and once a prison guard in the worse of the worse.. murders row. like the green mile, I was call preacher, and once was the chaplin officer over 6,000 men I now maybe able to continue to move lives for CHRIST.. through daily faith and prayers. we are servants first and obediance is key. Once Our Father trust us with the word, we move from servant to friend.. not needing to be tested no longer.. but, rather finishing my life being a Friend. of GOD's ... hence Jesus is my brother.. one in the same.. like the sparrow at my window.. is now a friend... keep it simple, God Bless. wayne
Posted by lax mom (Member # 38743) on :
payne: thank you for mentioning Job.
I have screamed "WHY????!!!!" and "PLEASE HELP ME!!!!!" at God when my world was falling down around me...but never cursed Him.
The book of Job is very fitting when you feel alone in your struggle, like your world is crumbling.
Posted by linky123 (Member # 19974) on :
Have you ever heard of a book called "Beyond Ourselves" by Catherine Marshall?
It is her story about her struggle with chronic illness and how God answered her prayer for healing.
You might want to read it. I still pick it up from time to time when I am struggling.
Take care.
Posted by Razzle (Member # 30398) on :
In 2 Corinthians 12:7b-9a (NIV throughout), Paul says:
...I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
Personally, I know I will be healed when God decides it to be time for that to happen. But I do need to keep asking as long as I get a "not yet."
It is not lack of faith, nor is it some sin I've done (after all, hasn't Jesus paid for all my sins already, making them white as snow?), that prevents healing.
Failure to ask is one reason our desires are not granted (see John 16:24), but this is not the only reason.
And I know for sure I will be given a new body in heaven.
So I hold on to the hope of a new body so that I can persevere in this broken one...though it is tough.
And I agree, staying away from those who would blame you for your illness is not helpful, nor is it uplifting. Read Job, as he experienced the same stuff.
Remember, "...our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body." (Phil. 3:20-21)
Posted by Pocono Lyme (Member # 5939) on :
Job was the first Book of the Bible I turned to when hurting so badly. God allowed satan to test Job. His wife told him to curse God already.
Job stood fast. Satan is ruling right now with God's permission. Do you think this world would be like it is now if God were ruling? No way.
I've often thought of this. Are we being tested or are others around us being tested? How are they responding to our illness?
Are they supportive? Are they condemning? Do they pull away and leave us to our suffering alone? Just something to ponder.
Like you Greta, I am grateful for the weeding out of those who really didn't care. I now know who really loves me. Firstly-----GOD!
He did bring me closer to Him.
Posted by Ellen (Member # 42834) on :
Thank you all for your encouraging words. Sounds like most of you don't regularly hear that if you had enough faith you'd be healed. I live in Alabama, the heart of the Bible belt, so it's hard to come across other Christians that believe our healing may be delayed for a good reason. I've been prayed for (for healing) more times than I can count over the past 17 years, and when I'm not healed I'm blamed. I even heard one person say that if you're sick you're not a Christian. That hurt more than any of the other comments I've heard.
I personally hold onto the hope of heaven, when I'll undoubtedly! be released from this sick and mortal body. I'm 44, so I just have to remember that in a few short decades it will all be over anyway.
I have to confess that a few times I've been angry with God for leaving me bedridden for years on end. Don't know if being angry is cursing God. I sure hope not.
I too have become a much more compassionate person and much less judgemental since I've been sick. And I too enjoy the little things in life more than I did before. I no longer NEED what others need to be happy, though it is hard looking at the busy and plentiful lives of others.
One struggle that I'm having right now is that I'm not ALLOWING myself to be sick without berating myself. Perhaps I've become my own worst enemy. I just believe so strongly that Jesus died for our healing that I'm constantly analyzing what I've done wrong to still be sick.
It would be fair to say that I'm a charismatic, and charismatics believe that God's will and promise is to heal ALL who are sick. Jesus didn't turn anyone away, and He even healed unbelievers, so lack of faith can't be the reason why some aren't healed today. I don't judge others, but I do indeed judge myself, which of course God doesn't want us to do.
Sure do wish I could find a church that both accepts sick people AND believe God's will is to heal, but in my experience no such church exists. Guess I'm a lone soldier in both accepting the sick and believing God wants healing for them/us.
Would love to hear from more people too, if there are more out there who are both sick and Christian. Thank you all for your input! Have a blessed day.
Posted by payne (Member # 26248) on :
•The plowman usually steered the plow with his left hand and goaded (a goad was a pointed stick) the oxen with his right hand, all the while keeping his eyes straight ahead to make a straight furrow. Jesus Christ used this as an analogy
**for not looking back to a sinful life after conversion:)
"No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in The Kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62 NIV)
this brought me to rise and go forward.. never needing to look back. as, I surely won't want to miss "THE KINGDOM" so, Proud of those that shared here.. All, Praises to The LORD.. razzle - fuel the lamp at our feet for the path to The Lord can be filled with thorns and roses.. many folks good folks and ones that LOVE the Lord.. have falling deep with blind judgement. The Lord Loves ALL, but, may not like their way.. there will be much knawing of teeth when the river divids US. shame..., lead US away from the temptations and onto your WOrd lord.. Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Ellen said, "Jesus didn't turn anyone away, and He even healed unbelievers, so lack of faith can't be the reason why some aren't healed today."
Exactly. Keep that thought in your head.
I read Job when I had to retire from teaching (due to illness). It was comforting in a strange sort of way.
Posted by linky123 (Member # 19974) on :
Isaiah 55:8-9
New International Version (NIV)
8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. 9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
I'm in the Southeast too. I hear that all the time. I have family (in-laws) who are preachers and it's especially hard to hear them judge me for freaking out about my situation. Judging my response, rather than reaching out a helping hand.
They feel that if my faith was stronger, I wouldn't freak out and stress...easier said than done. Especially, when it's my husband and baby that I'm talking about.
There is a WONDERFUL set of movies that made me cry my eyes out:
Sad to say, but Christians have not been known for their furious, overwhelming love...rather their harsh judgements. As a Christian, I hope to change that.
Posted by MADDOG (Member # 18) on :
If everyone got healed no one would ever die.
There are lots of people with faith that died.
So everyone has a lack of faith sometime.
That is not to be used to judge a good Christian.
When we got kicked out of the garden of eden all bets were off.
MADDOG
Posted by lax mom (Member # 38743) on :
Ellen: can you look around at all the good, faith filled people who are still sick? There are plenty of them. The next time you are at the hospital having labs drawn, look around.
Those people aren't sick because it's their fault. So, you are not sick because it's your fault. Adversity comes upon evryone. Every last person on this Earth has some sort of burden to bear. EVERYONE.
I have to keep telling myself that there's something better on the other side of this.
What the enemy has stolen, God will give you back double.
I love this story. I have it printed out and hung on my fridge:
MADDOG: your post reminds me of the movie "Tuck Everlasting". If everyone lived forever, no one would appreciate life...it wouldn't be so special.
Posted by linky123 (Member # 19974) on :
Ellen, I live in your neck of the woods too, but have been blessed enough to be in a church that doesn't judge sick people.
They don't always understand it, but they don't judge.
I will send up a prayer that the Lord will lead you to a place where you can get the support you need.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
MADDOG said.. "When we got kicked out of the garden of eden all bets were off."
Yep!
Linky.. I am fortunate also. My church has been very good to me. They don't judge me or anyone else who struggles.
Posted by lpkayak (Member # 5230) on :
Ellen, i hope you keep coming here for support. Lymenet is a very special place.
I believe hard stuff happens to us in life in order to give us a chance to grow spiritually.
I think payne and greta described that happening to them. Maybe others did too...i couldnt read everything here
So chances are if your cross to bear isnt lyme...it would be something else. I have seen others struggling with things worse than lyme
I also believe coming to accept a chronic illness requires you to go thru stages...like the stages of grief...anger, disbelief , bargainiing etc
And im pretty sure we arent given what we cant handle. It may be those of us who are sickest are the strongest and grow the most
Just know there is comfort and support for you here ellen
Posted by momindeep (Member # 7618) on :
In the book of James, it is stated that we are to count it ALL joy...all of it...and the Bible tells us that we have a Great High Priest who is not a stranger to suffering Himself...that is what reassures me...He knows more about suffering than I do.
I am not ill myself...but I had to watch my daughter struggle for many years...and that brought me to my knees.
Posted by GretaM (Member # 40917) on :
this is a great thread!
I am so grateful to have read your words.
They fortified me.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- People of all faiths struggle with health issues and their thought process around that.
It's truly a spiritual, as well as physical, journey, regardless of one's faith. No matter one's faith, we live in a physical world.
the law of physics apply. Among other things, no two things can take up the same space. Some bacteria, viruses, fungi, protozoa and prions just want to take over our space. And then we have it: Ka-Pow!
How I (try to) reconcile with that takes the best available information of science (even if I can't afford it), the best nature has to offer to which I can avail myself - and a true dedication to a spiritual process & evolution.
Or dark chocolate and a bubble bath, some days!
Nurturing my self has been a valuable tool. Regardless of my faith or views on any of this, in the end it comes down to my being able to nourish and nurture myself as best possible. That's love, in any language, in any faith - whatever the outcome.
And, as I understand it, all faiths teach love toward others - and a little bit extra understanding to those who are ill or different in any way from us. Rarely do two humans have the exact same physical chemistry or skill set.
So compassion has to be on board for others, as well as for ourselves.
It may not be so much about results as the process (I'm guessing!).
But I'd rather have the desired results and not have to put a deep spin in it to just get through the day, of course! That's pretty much modern human nature to be concerned with results - and, of course, pain would be banished if I were in charge!
Oh, but pain is supplied to us as a message that something is wrong. In the case of so many with lyme, we've been let down by the very (non LL) doctors who we THOUGHT were supposed to help us.
I am much more disillusioned with the medical system than with my God. -
[ 12-09-2013, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by TF (Member # 14183) on :
You ask how we can reconcile Is.53:5 with the fact that we are sick.
Read Is.53:5-6 carefully, and you will see that:
"He was wounded for our transgressions"
Are transgressions sicknesses? No, they are our sins.
"He was bruised for our iniquities"
Are iniquities sicknesses? No, they are our sins.
So far, Jesus was punished for our sins. This has been said twice. Then:
"The chastisement of our peace was upon him"
Is this talking about sickness? No.
So then when it says:
And by his stripes we are healed" it is also still not talking about sicknessees. In context it is still talking about our sins. We are healed of our sins by the suffering of Christ. This is stated throughout the Bible. This verse is not saying anything but that.
Then, it goes on:
"All we like sheep have gone astray, We have turned every one to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all."
So, again, this entire passage is repeating that Jesus suffered to pay the penalty for our sins. See verse 10 where it is said again.
Many passages in the Bible say the same thing over but in slightly different ways. This is what is known as parallelism. It is a form of Hebrew poetry.
In English, poetry often rhymes. In Hebrew, poetry says the same thing but in different ways. So, that is why this verse says the same thing in 4 different ways.
Look it up using Google and you will see it discussed. (type in "Bible parallelism Hebrew poetry")
Only certain Christian groups (including some Charismatics) interpret this verse to mean that physical healing is promised here.
Certain Charismatics are often the group that looks down on sick people for this very reason. Some even refuse to wear eyeglasses because that would be admitting that their eyes are not healed of nearsightedness or farsightedness, thus exhibiting a lack of faith.
These people put a heavy burden on others, requiring them to have enough faith that no germ can hurt them. I like hearing them explain why the apostle Paul had a physical affliction! I heard one guy say it was his lack of faith. Or, that Paul did not have the knowledge we have today!
These people are often known as "the hyperfaith movement."
So, you see, they are the ones with a problem, not you. They are totally entrenched in a misinterpretation of a verse and reality is being ignored. So sad. Especially when their child is sick.
One man I knew stopped going to church when his family let his mother die rather than get her medical care because they were believing that God would heal her of diabetes.
And, I know a man who refused to go to a doctor for his diabetes because he believed God would heal him. Finally, one morning he woke up legally blind from it. And, he is still legally blind to this day, nearly 20 years later.
He was an elder of the church. He thought that he should step down from being an elder since his faith was evidently not strong enough to heal him from diabetes. He has been on insulin injections since this event. So much for his faith, right? (This poor man went into a severe depression when this happened to him. It was very sad.)
So, no evidence to the contrary will convince these people that their belief is wrong.
Please stop tormenting yourself with this verse. Your church's interpretation of it is a minority view. Most of the Christian world and virtually every Bible scholar does not see this verse as promising physical healing to every Christian.
We cannot understand God. So, we do not know why some get healed and others don't.
You do not lack faith.
Every one of us is making some theological mistakes and we will all find out about them when we get to heaven.
You have a heavy enough load on you right now trying to get well. I suggest you find a church that does not cling to this teaching. Then, you will not experience being condemned for being sick.
They tried this on Joni Erikson for years. She wrote about it in one of her books.
Posted by Dekrator48 (Member # 18239) on :
Hi Ellen,
I have found that my relationship with our Lord has deepened so much more through my struggles...health, relationships, etc.
Without those struggles, I might have felt that I didn't need to rely on Jesus like I do now, so I am grateful.
I believe that since God sees the big picture and we do not, He knows we WILL be healed in His timing, not ours.
If that means at the moment of our death and the beginning of our real life...our eternal life, than that must be the best plan since it is His plan.
He does know what is best for us, and He knows why we must have struggles....to solely depend on Him.
So, I continue to pray for healing, but I must depend on Him to know when the timing is right...whatever His will is, not mine.
I have never had anyone say that I have not been healed due to lack of faith.
The true healing comes in Heaven, when we are healed of our sins, which we all have. Without Jesus having been willing to suffer and die for us, we would not be healed of our sins and spend eternity in Heaven.
Healing comes in many ways, but ultimately, healing is the forgiveness of our sins and the gifts that He gives to us.
Posted by Dekrator48 (Member # 18239) on :
I have enjoyed reading many books about people who have had near death experiences, how they struggled with their health problems and what they learned when they died and then were sent back to life to complete their mission.
It gave me a completely new perspective. These books are so hopeful and I recommend them to anyone.
A few that I have read are:
Heaven is For Real
Embraced By the Light
To Heaven and Back
The Message
Saved By the Light
Just thought I'd mention this for anyone who is feeling hopeless.
Since the promise of life after life is real, it is so interesting and inspiring to read these wonderful accounts. God does have a plan for each of us.
Posted by linky123 (Member # 19974) on :
I found this among my mother's things after she passed away.
She went through some very tough times and I think it gave her comfort.
It has done the same for me, so I will share it with you in hopes it will help you through the rough spots as well.
God hath not promised sun without rain,
Joy without sorrow, peace without pain.
But God hath promised strength for the day,
Rest for the laborer, light on the way,
Grace for the trials, help from above,
Unfailing sympathy, undying love.
from "A Day of Private Prayers"
by John Baillie
Posted by payne (Member # 26248) on :
what a Blessed Treasure, this thread is to me and many others in silence .. Never look back..plow forward Ellen and KEEP YOUR EYE ON JESUS !!!! As Jesus, with staff and Rod.. COMMANDS - THAT, ALL THINGS BOW TO HIM.
He alone wash my feet and cleanse me.. and you.
Ellen, God has open such a Glory here for you and US.. see the Blessings your thrist has brought..
**when I layed dieing, I prayed for a man that was yelling out Ellen !! - his daughter of many years .. she wasn't there. in CCU.. my 2nd time,
Ellen was not there, yelling, all night for days the nurse told me.. "Prayer is THE ANSWER", for The Spirit moved upon that wing and He rested, the next day the nurse told me he was quiet. a week later I took flowers to the floor staff, and they all said, william, billie, and the floor had been changed.. He had a elderly woman as a room mate now and that it brought him much calming...
did he know Christ ?? - I may know some day..
AS. I am only the lighten rod for The Lord to use..
Happy and in Favor is The LORD to you and US.
This is by far the Greatest CHRISTmas card I will ever have.. RECIEVE > For no Greater Love for you, is written in The Book of Love,
That God so Loved THE WORLD, He gave Us HIS only begotten SON, that WHOSEVER believeth in HIM should not PERISH. But, have ever lasting life. For GOD sent NOT HIS SON into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through HIM .. MIGHT ... be SAVED .. AMEN IT is DONE.
I was told by a praying friend to be STILL.. it was God way to me, to let me know He Hear's OUR PRAYERS and in HIS TIME. Not mine or yours .. Angels are working Miricales around US.. GOD SPEED Ellen, and 10 fold the return to His Flock for Prayers and Words shared here.. ALL and I MEAN ALL>> PRAISES TO OUR LORD.. for I am only dirt without HIM.
\o/ \o/ \o/ \o/
Posted by payne (Member # 26248) on :
I can't remember which gospel, but in one 3 men approach Jesus to be physically healed. Jesus heals all three, but only one comes back to thank him. Jesus tells him that his faith has made him well.
The other 2 got physically well, but I believe this third man became spiritually well with forgiven sins. What a victory.
Hiker53
Posted by Ellen (Member # 42834) on :
THANK YOU SO MUCH EVERYONE! What encouraging words and insight! You don't know what peace you've given to me- each in your own unique way. TF, you think like I do. I analyze things too, but for me a little to much. Could you possibly explain another verse to me in context? If so, it is Matthew 8:16-17. I had always thought that that verse was referring to physical healing too, but perhaps I'm wrong. God bless you all. I'm so thankful for this group, and especially for others who share my faith.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Here are those verses from Matthew:
Matthew 8:16-17
The Message (MSG)
16-17 That evening a lot of demon-afflicted people were brought to him. He relieved the inwardly tormented. He cured the bodily ill. He fulfilled Isaiah’s well-known sermon:
He took our illnesses, He carried our diseases.
Posted by TF (Member # 14183) on :
Yes, Matthew 8:16-17 is talking about physical healing. He is quoting Is.53:4 (verse 4 is the verse prior to the punishment verses).
Here, Matthew is saying that while Jesus walked the earth, He healed people, fulfilling a prophesy about Messiah that was spoken by Isaiah.
"And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet saying: He Himself took our infirmities and bore our sicknesses." (Ma. 8:16b-17)
So, when Jesus did these miraculous healings, it was to be a sign to the Jews that He was the Messiah.
Later, He also fulfilled verse 5 by taking their sins in his beating and crucifixion.
Notice that Isaiah never said that Jesus DIED for our illnesses, just that he "took" or "carried" them. He did that while he was ALIVE.
Then, Isaiah said that He was wounded, bruised, etc. for our sins.
So, Isaiah prophesied that Messiah would 1) take sickness from people and would 2) be beaten and wounded for our sins. Jesus did the first one during His earthly life and the second one during His torture and death.
Posted by Ellen (Member # 42834) on :
So why do we still have to bear our infirmities and sicknesses when Jesus Himself took them and bore them for us? Please don't let me upset your peace with your illness. I've just been taught my entire Christian life that Jesus bore our sicknesses so that we don't have to. On one hand, this theology makes me feel condemned, but on the other hand gives me hope that our healing will also become manifest, as our sickness was already taken from us. Sorry to be so thick headed here. I'm just struggling right now- physically and with my faith. Thank you all.
Posted by Ellen (Member # 42834) on :
I'm disillusioned with my understanding of scripture, not with God. I too am also disillusioned with Western medicine and with those I thought were my friends and family. Seems like only those with a serious chronic illness get it and remain for the long hall. Thank you for listening/ reading.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by TF:
Notice that Isaiah never said that Jesus DIED for our illnesses, just that he "took" or "carried" them. He did that while he was ALIVE.
- I think your answer is here, Ellen.
Posted by Life+Lyme (Member # 33568) on :
So glad to have this thread! I have always looked at it as we will ultimately be healed, but it may not be in the time we would think.
When we go to heaven, we have a brand new body with not a touch of illness. Since that is where we will be spending eternity, that sounds pretty spectacular to me! So, the time on this side of eternity with diseased bodies is just a vapor in the wind.
I am so comforted when I think about how things will be in Heaven. I think that we have a real appreciation for it because we have been through so many trials. It makes us have a higher anticipation, and we aren't apathetic where we would rather stay here on earth.
I have found that to be such a blessing. I'd rather be yearning for the time I will be face-to-face with God than be apathetic and comfortable here.
Also, I am always extremely upset when people imply that we are ill from sin. That is not Biblical at all. I kind of question someone's faith if they think that.
Posted by Life+Lyme (Member # 33568) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ellen: So why do we still have to bear our infirmities and sicknesses when Jesus Himself took them and bore them for us? Please don't let me upset your peace with your illness. I've just been taught my entire Christian life that Jesus bore our sicknesses so that we don't have to. On one hand, this theology makes me feel condemned, but on the other hand gives me hope that our healing will also become manifest, as our sickness was already taken from us. Sorry to be so thick headed here. I'm just struggling right now- physically and with my faith. Thank you all.
I think that in some sense, saying that we do not have to suffer is a metaphor. At the very least, it applies to heaven and not to our earthly bodies. The Bible says that we will be confronted with trials. Not maybe. It is inevitable because we live in a fallen world. It is imperfect and broken.
Posted by payne (Member # 26248) on :
Luke 17:11-19
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
11 And it came to pass as He went to Jerusalem that He passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee.
12 And as He entered into a certain village, there met Him ten men who were lepers, who stood afar off.
13 And they lifted up their voices and said, “Jesus, Master, have mercy on us!”
14 And when He saw them, He said unto them, “Go, show yourselves unto the priests.” And it came to pass that as they went, they were cleansed.
15 And one of them when he saw that he was healed, turned back and with a loud voice glorified God,
16 and fell down on his face at His feet, giving Him thanks; and he was a Samaritan.
17 And Jesus answering said, “Were there not ten cleansed? But where are the nine?
18 There are none found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.”
19 And He said unto him, “Arise; go thy way. Thy faith hath made thee whole.”
Posted by seibertneurolyme (Member # 6416) on :
Have not read all the responses, but my simple answer would be that I think Christ heals the spirit. He does not promise to heal all physical illnesses -- otherwise why would it say that there are no tears and pain in heaven. He doesn't say he will take away pain and tears on earth.
Yes, there are still miraculous recoveries sometimes, but I do not believe that God grants miracles to all his believers.
Bea Seibert
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Miracles were likely just as "rare" in Biblical times as in current times. It happens, we pray for it, but not everyone is healed.
However, everyone can be spiritually healed and that is the Good News!
Posted by beaches (Member # 38251) on :
This is a very interesting thread.
I never really connected my and my children's illnesses to religion or biblical verses.
To me, this disease is what it is. I don't question "why" this happened to my family. I just plug along and do what I think needs to be done.
But I am angry with God and I've told Him that. I have had a huge problem watching my children suffer so much and praying so hard for their recovery, only to see them suffer more.
I have asked myself what kind of God would allow a child to suffer so much pain. I begged God to give me all their pain and just let them be.
The last time I went to church was when my DD finally was able to attend school. I dropped her off in the morning and went to church to thank God for that wonderful blessing. Shortly thereafter my daughter had a relapse and was once again homebound.
To say I've lost my faith is an understatement. I was never a holy roller, but I at least attended mass on Easter and Christmas and several Sundays throughout the year.
The sad thing is that as a parent, I am in charge of guiding my children in their faith, and I have failed them to a certain extent because of my own disillusionment with same.
I do believe in the power of prayer and I think I've imparted that belief onto my kids.
I hope that one day soon I can go to mass with my family with a lighter heart and a heavier faith.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
You can do it this Christmas, beaches! Praise the Lord everyday for all of His blessings.
Posted by Dekrator48 (Member # 18239) on :
A very wise and deeply faithful woman I know lost her 11 year old daughter to a very sudden illness a couple years ago.
She said one thing that deeply impacted me: "A parent's most important job is to make sure their children go to Heaven".
I had never thought about it like that before. But this life is short and fleeting compared to eternity.
Jesus gives us the hope we need to get us through the hardest of trials that we know we will face in this life.
I hope to teach my grandchildren how to depend on God to get through anything that they may face.
God uses hardships to teach us to fully depend on Him instead of ourselves.
I recommend the wonderful daily devotional book, "Jesus Calling" by Sarah Young.
It contains a short paragraph or two to read everyday. It always seems to pertain to whatever I am going through. Others I know have said the same thing.
It is meant to be read as through Jesus is talking to you.
beaches, may God draw you near and fill you with the comfort and hope that only He can.
Posted by Pocono Lyme (Member # 5939) on :
TF- Excellent!!!
Keep Job in mind. God allowed the devil to afflict him to test his faithfulness to God.
Don't let the devil win. This is just a short time on this earth. Look ahead to eternity with Him.
No matter what we go through, we must trust in Jesus. Like another poster said. It's not IF we face trials but When we do.
In God we trust.
Posted by momindeep (Member # 7618) on :
Beaches...I came to a crossroads...I am filled with grief and I don't understand and I will resent God for the rest of my life...or I am griefstricken and I do not understand but I will trust God the rest of my life...I can sympathise with your feelings...I chose trust.
Posted by map1131 (Member # 2022) on :
I from the early days knew I was blessed. How can one be blessed when one is so ill?
My PCP happened to have done some doctoring in one of the northeastern states. He recognized the symptoms that came about suddenly and on day 10 of flu-like illness from he!! it said "I believe you have Lyme Disease".
But he also thought we had caught it in the early stage. Therefore, take some abx and double up on some and was puzzled why I was still ill after 2 mths of abx.
That was my first blessing. I've had so many over the years that when I say to someone "I'm blessed that this didn't happen or that this thing happened", people will look at me oddly.
How can one be blessed when they have this illness? I'm able to walk with both legs, laugh with my heart and my face, learned patience and got one heck of an education along the way. I'm not one of those lost to Lyme & co and I refuse to give in.
All of us are so blessed to have this tool called lymenet.org. It could/would of been a very lonely illness without it.
Pam
Give thanks
Posted by Ellen (Member # 42834) on :
Thank you- all of you- for your compassionate and insightful input. As I'm a sick, single, working mom, I don't know when I can post again, so If it's not for a while, MERRY CHRISTMAS! Love, Ellen
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Ditto on the Jesus Calling by Sarah Young. What a blessing that book is to me and to others I have shared it with.
Posted by Merry (Member # 42990) on :
My heart goes out to you! TF expressed beautifully how I read these scriptures. I've been around many types of Christians--some who blame the sufferer (not enough faith), some who kind of spiritually wring their hands and have no idea how to reconcile suffering and a loving God...and some who dig down deep and draw spiritual nourishment from Christ, the vine. They see that suffering has a purpose, whether it is to teach us, to help us become more holy, or to help us draw nearer to God.
Which sounds really odd to say! But it's the kind of thing Paul was expressing in 2 Corinthians 1:8-9:
"For we do not want you to be unaware, brothers, of the affliction we experienced in Asia. For we were so utterly burdened beyond our strength that we despaired of life itself. Indeed, we felt that we had received the sentence of death. But that was to make us rely not on ourselves but on God who raises the dead."
Pain and suffering are throughout the Bible. I love to read and meditate on the Psalms, because so many of them express what I feel, like Psalm 13: "How long, O Lord?" and then lead us to praise even though the situation is not resolved. Psalm 31 is beautiful too. So many we could post here!
He promises us peace in him, but trouble in the world:
"I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.”
--John 16:33
I love to read Hebrews 11--verse 13: "These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth."
They died IN faith--not because of a lack of faith! They died not yet having received the things promised.
and read on--faith produced many incredible things for some, but many awful things resulted for others (verses 35b-39): "Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated—of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised..."
Consider 1 Peter 1:6-7: "In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ."
I love this quote from Kevin DeYoung:
"Trust...does not mean hoping for the absence of pain but believing in the purpose of pain. After all, if my almighty God is really almighty and my heavenly Father is really fatherly, then I should trust that he can and will do what is good for me in this sad world."
It makes me look for something deeper, it begs me to draw my strength on Christ and not this world. Circumstances lie to us. They don't tell us the truth of God's character--we have to see his character first and then look at our circumstances through that lens.
May God bless you in your search to see him more. Merry :-)
Posted by Dekrator48 (Member # 18239) on :
Welcome to lymenet, Merry!
I did check out your blog a little and plan to look at it more when I get a chance. I read that your husband has chronic lyme.
Thanks for sharing, Merry.
Praying for everyone.
Posted by beatlymedisease (Member # 42829) on :
I think that we just live in a fallen sinful world and disease is just part of it. But God is still able!! Hang in there!! Posted by Thewino (Member # 39086) on :
Ellen,
Please keep in mind that your physical body is but a fleeting amount of time.
Your spiritual self and soul will be invited to God's everlasting kingdom where you will receive his love and never feel physical pain anymore.
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PRAISES TO OUR LORD..![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)