This is a Christmas tree. It is not a Hanukkah bush, it is not an Allah plant, it is not a Holiday hedge. It is a Christmas tree. Say it... CHRISTmas , CHRISTmas , CHRISTmas
Yes. CHRISTmas - celebrating the Birth of Jesus Christ!!!
We've been doing this since before 1776, why are we changing now????
Posted by lymie tony z (Member # 5130) on :
AMEN!!! Dad.
These Bozo's that are worried about living in a theocracy...ought to go to Iran and try that for awhile....
The silent majority should be getting tired of all this crap and start speaking up a little...
If they don't like our prayers then THEY ought to put earplugs in.....
zman Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
Ok --
Honestly, I don't get this. This is not to you LymeDad, I am posting to all..
I am commenting on what I have seen, solely from the likes of Bill O'Riley.. who has led a campaign for weeks against an imagined 'attack on Christmas'.
I see this as another affront to feed the division in our country that is contributing to the Great Divide that hurts us all. I believe it is geared toward inciting anger, and supremecy/exclusion.
What harm is there to calling a town or city tree a Holiday tree?
What's the threat in that?
Noone is saying we can't celebrate or say Christmas.. it is a National holiday, all business, schools...everything honors the Holiday.. nothing is taking away from that if CVS has signs that say "Happy Holiday"..
So what if the town or city tree (paid for and potentially enjoyed by all religions and creeds who hold residence in the town) is called a Holiday tree?
Seems to me that is INCLUSIVE of others and not at all exclusive of Christians.
I'm Christian..and I see it at the core of the spirit of the season to include all in the festivities.. I actually do not feel comfortable claiming it for Christians alone and getting hung up on semantics.
What of the children?.. "No, you can't enjoy that tree or the lights or the mall unless you beleive in Christ" (??)
Imagine Christianity was the minority.. and instead there was a great big golden cow in the center of town, schools closed, all the shopping and selling, ect...everyone buzzing around the cow.
..in the monority in AMERICA wouldn't you feel calling it the Holiday cow was more inclusive and appropriate?
Would you see that as a threat to the cow worshipers?
Would it be holding true to American values if the cow was only there for the chosen who believe in the cow and must be dubbed as belonging to one group?
O'Reily has convinced his audience that the Grinch has come to town.. meanwhile, it's Christmas, we are at War.. I think we need to pull together this season at all costs.
In keeping with the spirit of the season..
Mo
Posted by lymie tony z (Member # 5130) on :
OK Here's the thing....
I have been to Greek celebrations...Russian orthodox churches....ethiopian weddings....sons and daughters of alabama dances....etc and so on.
I did'nt ask them to change their names...they did'nt expect me to become them either...I just enjoyed their fun and respected and TOLERATED their beliefs...
I believe that is one of the main principles of why the puritans came here in the first place....religious tolerance.
So if I can tolerate mosques,sinagogs, etc being built here and worshippers of all religions they should be able to tolerate mine.
To do otherwise would mean that we eventually would'nt tolerate any religions....
That would send the world the message that we truly are a Godless nation....
First they came for the jews... and I did'nt stand against them... Then they came for the trade unions and I did'nt stand against them... Then they came for the homosexuals... and I did'nt stand against them...
Then they came for me and their was no one left to stand against them....
God bless america and it's diversity...and it's religious tolerance.......zman Posted by lymebrat (Member # 3208) on :
AMEN!
Yes Lymedad, it is and will always be a Christmas Tree, to me and my family.
This isn't anything new, it's been going on for years. A small group of people have been trying to get the word Christmas out of many holiday things..Christmas tree, Christmas concerts at school, Christmas fairs...all of these are now suppose to be called "holiday tree" "Holiday concert" or "holiday fair"...
And this is just a few things..
Did you know that 2 years ago, the same group of people squawking about the word "Christmas Tree" also complained that the word Christmas itself should not be used in the "Holiday Concerts" at school?
They are apposed to the word Christmas as in their opinion, it forces Christianity on them. And because they are not Christians, in their opinions, those of us who are Christians, do not have the right to celebrate this Christian holiday as we chose to.
They wanted no mention of Jesus, Christmas, God..anything to do with Christianity sung at the schools concerts, or used in public places...
So while it is okay for them to use their freedom of speech and religious choices to make their point, for some reason, Christians are not allowed to use these very same freedoms to celebrate our holiest of holidays, as we see fit.
Hog wash...
I am not offended when I see a dreidel , menorah, or the Star of David.. all Jewish symbols to celebrate Chanukah. Or when I see the Kinara, Mishumaa or Saba Bendera , all symbols of the African holiday Kwanzaa.
I am not Jewish, or African, and I am not offended when I see symbols of their religious holidays displayed, or when they are taught to my children at public school.
So why are these people so offended by the word Christmas?
We have to stand up to these people, I will not let them take anything away from this holiday that means so much to me and my family.. CHRISTMAS!!!
~LymeBrat
Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
Stand up to these people? Who's offended by the word Christmas? Those who are shouting about this are the ones that sound offended.
Who's threatening Christmas if community celebrations are called 'Holiday' for inclusion of all, and in school.. for inclusion of all children?
(incidentally..the root of Holiday is HOLY day)
I'm sorry guys...I'm just not understanding the 'grab your torches, we're under attack' feeling here. The elusion that there is some kind of religious persecution going on.. it's not!
Even school concerts..
I don't think they should have NO christmas songs.. but I do think that they should have a number of religions represented in music should the kids and parents be involved in a public school concert.
Anything less is exclusionary. The kids like to sing anything..they don't mind, afterall.
That's the point and I think it's a good one, and all this anger over percieved threats is dampening the HOLYday for me. Not very Christmassy at all.
I solo at church with Oh Holy Night for many years..
Their is a magnificent choir at midnight mass, with candles and long velvet skirts..
singing Angels We Have Heard on High, Silent Night, Do You Hear What I Hear..
My freinds and I go carolling in a multi-ethnic town and noone ever looks offended. Same thing in NYC for YEARS.. you can't get more multi-cultural, they have said HOLYday for the most part for a long time.. and NOone is ever offended one way or another, most just love the season. It's magical and semantics matter little.
I'm sorry, but when we have all of these wonderful things, and this being the season it is... being upset that store signs say Holiday, or community trees are called HOLYday trees, or school choirs are not singing the same concert as church choirs just makes no sense to me at all. It's being incited by a few high profile folks who intend to divide. It's fabricated, political, just another reason to hate the liberrrrrals and I am offended by the anger this has created during Christmas.
Noone is taking Christmas away, noone is offended by Christmas..and I am uncomfortable with the defiant or snide way 'Merry Chrismas' is being said by those that imagine someone is threatening it!
Peace on Earth, Good Will Toward Men......
Mo
Posted by Loribelle (Member # 6293) on :
wow
Mo said:
"I am commenting on what I have seen, solely from the likes of Bill O'Riley.. who has led a campaign for weeks against an imagined 'attack on Christmas'."
"imagined"?
Mo, I am surprised by your response, I must say. You must be of the "bathwater generation" (my own term), grown up/ growing up, in a period of desensitization.
You know, if you go to get in the tub and the water is say 100*. It feels HOT Too hot to slip comfortably into, so you'd either add cold water or wait til it cools some before you'd get in.
But if you get into a tub of 90* water it feels nice, warm. Then you'd want it a little warmer... you might sink down and turn the 'hot' faucet on with your big toe and ease the temp up.
Soon your bathwater is 100* and it feels 'just right', maybe even could go a little hotter. Before you know it it is 102* and 'oh so comfy'. Ahhh
Just look at TV for a good example of it as well... the shows that are on now would have shocked our grandparents (and parents) and there would dammm sure not be a TV in every home now if they'd have seen a program that is on our daily 'menu'.
We must hold fast to our traditions.
It irritates me that retailers no longer wish me a Merry Christmas. It bugs me that all the ads on TV say Happy Holidays. It makes me mad that I had to go to 3 stores before I found suitable Christmas cards that didn't just say happy holidays or season's greetings.
It is a form of religeous persecution pure and simple. Frankly, I'd rather offend a few people than God.
Posted by LabRat (Member # 78) on :
Man, this is right up my alley! Remember last year when the ragheads in some American city was bit*hing about them damn church bells ringing, always at the wrong time for their peace and solitude? Then they wanted to play their call to prayer five times a day over a loud speaker that to us sounds like a camel race or bidding in a tobacco warehouse.
What do you do? I vote for silence! If you don't know what time service starts, your probably not that interested anyway! Having said that, church bells have been ringing in America for a long time, the ragheads came here voluntarily for a change. Why would they want to make America like the place they left?
Peace is the way but it has to be a peace agreeable to all.-El Ratone (Coming soon to a bathroom wall near you)
Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
Lori,
I agree with you regarding today's television.. something ought to be done about some of that junk..
but do feel the reaction to retailers using the term 'Holiday' has been trumped up by Mr. O'Reilly ..as is his style.
He takes an opportunity for irritation and spins it into something folks get irate about.. for a no spin zone, I get awfully dizzy watching his (ahem) "news" show.
Talk about junk TeeVee.. he is single handedly driving a wedge in our society for years. He has had a considerable negative impact --- division. Now he even has a book for kids!!
I see some of that spinning outward among communities and that concerns me. We have more important things to worry about IMO, Christmas represents peacetime.
Objectively, I see no threat to Christmas whatsoever, as a Christian who is quite fond of and spiritually connected to the HolYday.
Besides....my butcher will have his tree and the Christmas bottle of scotch with glasses out on the counter as per usual.. so nothing much has changed in my view
Mo
Posted by TickMomPA (Member # 7869) on :
Holiday tree?
OMG, some on the far left in this country are total NUTS. We can't even have Christmas tree's anymore in public places.
The Great Divide in this country is from people like Howard Dean telling us that "we can't win" in Iraq and far left liberals attacking beliefs.
Posted by lymeloco (Member # 7192) on :
lymedad, I hope you don't mind, and I'm not sure this is where you got that beautiful picture but thought the stories and legends would be nice to share.
Mo, couldn't agree with you more. I don't usually enter into this kind of no win conversation. Call the tree whatever the heck you want. What does it matter if I call it a holiday tree, is it still not a Christmas tree to someone else? Or maybe just a pine tree to someone else? Why does that offend some people? I never expect people to believe what I do,never. I have my own faith and am secure in it and don't care that some people believe something else. How is that a threat to my faith? Did they pass a law that we cannot have Christmas trees in our own homes? But, in public places, there are many people that believe many things. They are just as American as you. That is what makes this country great.Believe whatever you want and call this holdiay whatever you want. Doesn't not make it Christmas to me and my family. I am so tired of religion causing so much hate and fighting in this country. Have some faith people, no one is trying to take away your religious holdiay. I can't believe I am commenting on just about the stupidest non- issue brought about by the right wing to take the heat away from all the screw ups. Merry Christmas,Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanzaa, Happy Sunday, Happy December 25th, and have a good day to everyone.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mo: What harm is there to calling a town or city tree a Holiday tree?
It's offensive to ME! It's a Christmas tradition. We aren't going to change the name of the Menorah to a "candleabra" are we?
Years ago the atheists tried calling Christmas "X-Mas". They're always working on something in this manner.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by Loribelle: We must hold fast to our traditions.
It irritates me that retailers no longer wish me a Merry Christmas. It bugs me that all the ads on TV say Happy Holidays. It makes me mad that I had to go to 3 stores before I found suitable Christmas cards that didn't just say happy holidays or season's greetings.
It is a form of religeous persecution pure and simple. Frankly, I'd rather offend a few people than God.
You got it, sister!!!
The next time a retailer says "Happy Holidays" to me, I'm going to say "And Merry Christmas to you, too!" Posted by lymebrat (Member # 3208) on :
Mo said:
"Stand up to these people? Who's offended by the word Christmas? Those who are shouting about this are the ones that sound offended."
MO, maybe this isn't happening where you live, but unfortunately the majority of Americans are surrounded by people/businesses who are being censored, due to a small group of people putting up a big stink about the Christian holiday, Christmas.
So yes, we need to stand up to the people who are trying to change the Christian holiday known as Christmas, to make them ( the non Christians) more "comfortable".
Please!!!
You don't see Christians trying to conform Chanukah or Kwanzaa.
Christians aren't saying the "Star of David" should be called the "Star of Holiday".
Christians aren't saying the "Menorah", should be called "The Candle Holder that gives Light".
Christians aren't saying that the "Dreidel" should be called "the Holiday Top"
Nor are the Christians saying that the "Kinara" should be now called "The Holiday Candle Holder"
Christians are not saying that "Mishumaa Saba" should now be called "Seven Candles of Principles"
The Christians are not saying that the "Bendera" Should now be called "The Holiday Flag"
I could go on and on, but I think you get my point. I would never try to tell people of other religions, to change the name of their Holy holiday symbols, to make me feel more comfortable with THEIR , holiday!
Christmas is a Christian Holiday, it is my Holiday.
If it makes others uncomfortable that I celebrate MY religious holiday, "Christmas", with a Christmas Tree - by singing Christmas Carols, with the words Christ, Jesus, Lord, & Christmas --
that I have a baby Jesus in my Nativity, - and that I go to church to worship on Christmas eve, then they need to learn to respect others religious beliefs...they need to respect my religion and my religious symbols, just as they want me to respect theirs.
Look, this has nothing to do with politics, this is about:
Macey's dept store taking down all it's "Merry Christmas" decorations and replacing them with "Season's Greetings" decorations..(because it's politically correct)
It's about a boy in Hampton New Hampshire, who was denied going to the "Holiday Dance" ( it use to be a Christmas dance!!) simply because he wore a Santa suit. The principal said Santa was indirectly linked to Christmas and Christmas wasn't allowed..
When he came under fire, the principal later said the Santa suit wasn't up to the dress code, but the mom of the 12 year old boy, told the press that he was later allowed back into the dance wearing the only clothes she had in the back of the car, a pair of jeans and a t-shirt!!.
It's about baby Jesus being taken out of the Nativity, because it may make someone uncomfortable.
It's about children not being able to sing traditional Christmas carols, because they contain the words, God, Holy, Jesus, or even Christmas!
It's about children in the Anchorage School District being told by teachers, that they were not allowed to say "Merry Christmas" . (2004)
It's about children in Maplewood NJ, where Members of the Columbia High School brass ensemble were not allowed to play Christmas carols at their holiday concert last year -- not even instrumental versions.!!! ( 2004)
It's about a Chicago school dropping the words ``Merry Christmas'' from a traditional holiday favorite, "We wish you a Merry Christmas" and replacing it with "We wish you a swinging holiday."
It's about people being asked to accept that the Tree we have been lighting for decades as a "Christmas Tree", should now be called a "Holiday Tree", as it might offend someone to hear the word "Christmas".
It's about my having to explain to my children why Baby Jesus was removed from the "holiday" display in front of the bank, as someone out there in the world, might find the sight of Jesus offensive.
It's about others who are non Christian and who do not celebrate Christmas, trying to change the names of the symbols that are the very core of Christianity......Christmas.
And I for one, will not accept it.
Nor should any American,(Christain or not) in my honest opinion. Our forefathers fought with their very blood, to give us all a right to practice any religion we wanted... no where does it say that Christians should no be allowed to have public displays of their religious symbols. To do so, would be unconstitutional, wouldn't it?
I would feel this way if they were trying to change the name of any religion's holiday/religious symbols, just to make some people feel more comfortable, and not offended.
One more thing, You said:
"Those who are shouting about this are the ones that sound offended"
Yes, "I am" offended! I am offended that "they" are offended, by my calling our Christmas Tree, a "Christmas Tree" and that "They" are offended by having a Baby Jesus in a Nativity... And why shouldn't I be?
We should ALL be offended!!! Like I said, I would be just as offended if someone were trying to change the names of other religions' holiday/religious symbols, as should every American. It is wrong. Wrong anyway you look at it.
Merry Christmas,
~Missy
Posted by lymebrat (Member # 3208) on :
Barrie,
You said:
"Call the tree whatever the heck you want. What does it matter if I call it a holiday tree, is it still not a Christmas tree to someone else? Or maybe just a pine tree to someone else? Why does that offend some people?"
"Did they pass a law that we cannot have Christmas trees in our own homes?"
Not yet...
It doesn't matter what any one person calls anything. What matters is that they are trying to take away one of my rights, one of my freedoms..
No one has the right to try and pressure businesses and other public place to change the name of a Christmas Tree, or remove the Baby Jesus Christ from the nativity scenes, or to even use the very word Christmas in public places.
To allow these few people any type of control to put pressure on the businesses of America, to change the names of our Christian holiday symbols, to make it "politically Correct" is wrong.
People need to take a stand and say they won't put up with this. The opinions of a few, should not control the way millions of Christians celebrate their holiday.
This is only political if we let it be. It shouldn't be. And it has nothing to do with politics for me.
This effects every American, Christian or not. By trying to do this, they are going against our rights and freedoms... if they step on our children's right to say "Christmas" in public, what is next?
~LymeBrat
Posted by Loribelle (Member # 6293) on :
they took Baby Jesus out of the nativity scene? You gotta be kidding...
a friend of mine's husband always snitches Baby Jesus from their nativity scene and hides it. he puts it back early Christmas morning. he says the Baby wasn't born til then, haha! Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by Loribelle: they took Baby Jesus out of the nativity scene? You gotta be kidding...
a friend of mine's husband always snitches Baby Jesus from their nativity scene and hides it. he puts it back early Christmas morning. he says the Baby wasn't born til then, haha!
Better tell him to be careful. A 70 yr old woman was charged with theft in Eureka Springs, AR this Christmas because she took the baby Jesus from the creche. They had a camera on it!!! Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
hey guys --
"I would never try to tell people of other religions, to change the name of their Holy holiday symbols"
My point is -- noone is telling YOU, Lymebrat (or anyone else)..
what to call your holiday or your tree, or changing the name of your Christmas tree..
they just want some community things to say Holiday.
Furthermore, if I was Jewish and worked at Macy's, why should I have to wish every customer a Merry Christmas? I would be thinking about MY Holy days this December.
Look... the point is... none of these things (seems to me) intrude on your personal celebration..or public celebrations for that matter..
and some of the above expectations actually sound a tad opressive of OTHERS to me.
The whole country celebrates Christmas.. businesses close, ect, ect... so then why is it such an offensive thing to have some trees (community based) say holiday.. and some vendors say 'Season's Greetings'?
We don't have a gigantic Menorah in Rockefeller center.. we have a Christmas tree.. Is it so important that we claim that only for ourselves and make all retailers say Merry Christmas as well?? What about their rights?
I don't know what to say about the fella who stole baby Jesus.. except he sounds like a theif and a vandal.. that would be upsetting to see for me, however.. these incidents are isolated, there is no mob of baby Jesus snatchers to my knowledge that we have to worry about.
I see isolated incidents being drummed up and blown out of proportion over this idea. (Ol' Bill will have a new one tonight, I'm sure!)
and this:
"Christmas is a Christian Holiday, it is my Holiday."
OK -- I like to think of ChristmasTIME as everyone's no matter what the religion, but even so.. noone is taking Christmas away from you.
..regarding public displays, who is saying we are not allowed to have public displays of religious symbols? If we are not allowed to, then folks are breaking this 'rule' all over the place.
If a business decides to be less exclusive, that's their choice .. I don't see how that is an attack.
..and I do think this is (for some in the media) a political smokescreen.. perhaps not any of you, but it seems clear regarding some of the 'coverage' of these 'incidents'.
Mo
(PS -- Lymeloco..thanks for the link on the stories )
Posted by FoggyLikeLA (Member # 8170) on :
As a agnostic, yes I am a non-christian please don't hate me, all this anti-christmas stuff disgusts me. I agree, its purely political correctness gone arwy. In this country we have religious freedom, not absense of religion. Christians don't get mad when they see the star of david on the cedar siani hospital here in LA. I don't see why people are all of a sudden getting offended when they see christmas things here and there. Whether you believe in jesus or not America celebrates Christmas. I LOOOOVVVVEEEE christmas. Do I care that the word christmas has the word christ in it? of course not. That christ dude sounds like an awesome fellow to me whether you believe in him or not. Christmas, to many here in america is past religious traditions and headed toward mere tradition. Whether or not you goto church on Christmas day is your own choice. I don't but I love any holiday that brings the family together and celebrates giving. Since we celebrate religious freedom here in America we should not be offended if we see markers from any religion here. Heck we should enjoy it since many countries are burdened with only one and sometimes none. I do think its a little wierd hearing happy holidays instead of Merry Christmas, but then again I guess it would be kinda long to say, Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, and Kwanza. You could satisfy all those people by just saying happy holidays. As for schools Xing out Christmas, I think its just silly. If anything, the kids should learn all about not only christmas but other holiday traditions from other cultures such as hanukkah and kwanza and any others that I left out. We growing into a mulicultural society after all. Now if you just want to acknowledge christmas and nothing else in schools then I would definately have a problem with that. Its simply unrealistic. I know in my school we celebrated and acknoledged everyone and there were never any complaints. Yes I did goto a public school btw.
Posted by lymedad (Member # 8074) on :
I don't think anyone can deny that there is a clear move by organizations like the ACLU to remove any mention of God, Jesus, Christmas, etc. from the public forum. Most of their efforts have been under the guise of protection "from" religion as they interpret the 1st Amendment of the U.S. constitution.
There has been story after story in the print and television media concerning city, county and state governments feeling the pressure to remove God's name from their buildings, etc., usually as a result of a law suit generated by the ACLU.
We're now seeing more and more pressure being brought upon our economic system to rid God's name from our every day life, e.g., Happy Holiday versus Merry Christmas, etc.
It is my opinion that Bill O'Reilly is only voicing the same concern that most of America is voicing in private.
Why is it now inappropriate to have Christmas music in schools? It was okay 20 years ago, 50 years ago, 200 years ago.
Why is it now unamerican or illegal to have a manger scene on public property? It was okay 20 years ago, 50 years ago, 200 years ago.
What's wrong with the ten commandments being on display in the Alabama courthouse? Our country's founders saw no problem with it in the Federal Supreme Court.
It's the same country as it was 20 years ago, 50 years ago, nothing in the Constitution has changed. The rights of Americans have not changed, to include Christians.
It seems to me that we're sliding down the slippery slope of pushing God completely out of our public lives for the sake of being politically correct and bowing to a very vocal minority of Americans, represented by the ACLU.
I, for one, will never allow that to happen in my life or the life of the things I can affect. I found the Christmas tree e-mail a poignant example of where we're heading as a nation.
I posted it here as a tongue-in-cheek statement. However, I am not surprised by the overwhelming support it received.
I understand the points brought forth by Mo and others, but if this board is any indication of the percentage of Americans who are tired of seeing our Christian symbols being degraded and thrown out of the public view, we're going to be just fine.
According to the statistics I found, approximately 190,000,000 Americans identify themselves as Christian and another 60,000,000 identify themselves as non-Christian but they believe in God. One of these days, the silent majority will become less silent and this nonsense will come to a screeching halt.
Posted by lymebrat (Member # 3208) on :
Mo said:
"My point is -- noone is telling YOU, Lymebrat (or anyone else)..what to call your holiday or your tree, or changing the name of your Christmas tree..they just want some community things to say Holiday."
Sorry, I didn't express myself better as you missed the point I was trying to make.
When Macey's store is asked by the big wigs in the company, to take down all Christmas decorations as they may offend someone..
When a Christmas Tree can no longer be called a "Christmas Tree" IN PUBLIC..when it has to be called a "Holiday Tree" (again, to make a small group of people feel more comfortable with a Christian holiday....)
When children all over America are told they can no longer sing Christmas carols...or even play musical melodies of traditional songs that have the word God, Jesus or even Christmas, in them..
When a 12 year old boy is denied entrance to a school dance as his principal said Santa is linked to Christmas...
When children in public schools are told they can not say "Merry Christmas" ( I know it has only happened in a few states..but make no mistake this HAS happened, and will continue to happen if we let it.)
When a customer wishes a cashiers, restaurant staff, or any other person who works with the public a "Merry Christmas" and the staff is NOT ALLOWED to wish the customer a "Merry Christmas" in return. ( no one is saying they have to wish anyone a Merry Christmas, the point is that IF they wanted to..they ARE NOT ALLOWED)
When banks, libraries and other public places are giving into the "political Correctness" of Christmas, as not to offend those who are making a stink...take the baby Jesus out of the Nativity......
When all these things happen to make a very small group of people, who for one reason or another, feel uncomfortable with seeing Christian symbols of Christmas... feel more comfortable....it takes away from...
MY RIGHTS, MY CHILDREN'S RIGHTS, MY FAMILY'S RIGHTS, YOUR RIGHTS, LYMEDAD'S RIGHTS, LYMETOO'S RIGHTS, LORIBELLE'S RIGHTS, AND THE RIGHTS OF EVER SINGLE AMERICAN WHO CELEBRATES CHRISTMAS-- AS A CHRISTIAN HOLIDAY!
Why should the names of one of Christianities most sacred symbols, be changed... or not be allowed in public displays?
To make a small group of people more comfortable???
What about my rights? What about me and thousands of Americans being "uncomfortable" with our Christmas tree being changed to a holiday tree...not a "HOLY" Tree ....a "Holiday" tree..simply because it has the word CHRIST in it...
Any way you look at it..this is wrong.
As for Bill O's take on all of this, I wouldn't know, I seldom watch his program.
I could care less what politics thinks about all of this..let the dems and rebubs put any kind of spin they want on this..
I am concerned and yes upset, because this is personal..this effects me, my children, my family, my community, my state, America...all Christians who celebrate Christmas, and my religion.
I have rights and I have freedoms..ones I am very grateful for.
Our very country was built on freedoms..including the right/freedom to chose ones own religion..God is mentioned in most of our forefathers documents and speeches...
our forefathers fought with their very blood to give us these rights and freedoms...
And I don't think we should let a small group of people step on mine and all other Americans who celebrate the Christian Holiday..."Christmas" rights and freedoms.
I will not let this small group of people ..who seem to have one mission..take the word Christmas and all Christian symbols out of "Christmas", get away with this injustice..
I will not let "Christmas" become a dirty word!!!!!!!!
~LymeBrat
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Well said "FoggyinLA"! You make some very good points!
and Lymebrat....Thanks for saying what I wanted to say. Saves me alot of typing!!
OH....PS...Jay Leno joked last night that we are now calling the Baby Jesus the "Holiday Infant"!
Of course he's not advocating that!...but what a sad commentary on our current situation!
Posted by lymie tony z (Member # 5130) on :
Ya know Mo for someone who sees conspiracies in almost everything...I'm really surprised you miss this one.....
Loribelle was trying to point out that this stuff starts out little by little and before you know it, it becomes mainstream.
Another analogy would be the smokers in this country... All of a sudden they feel ostracized by the general public..... Next it will be booze...then that'll hurt even you!
No we christians are not offended by the use of the words that are deemed "currently politically correct"....... Words don't hurt anyone...... What we are worried and offended by is the respect and tolerance of our religion and the assumption that we happen to be offending others....so much so they have to voice that they are offended by our religion and words so they must be stricken from the public eye.
Chipping away a little at a time....gee it seems obvious to a lot of us out here in lyme land and America as a whole. We're being punished cuz we're the majority. We should be ashamed that if we celebrate what we like it will offend someone else.
Like I said in an earlier post...if there is selective religious tolerance their will eventually be no religious tolerance and YOU SHOULD KNOW WHERE THAT LEADS>>>>
I'm standing up against those that are intolerant of my CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to FREEDOM OF RELIGION...
IT's just that simple.......zman
Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
OK -- trying to understand..
Perhaps it's because I lived in NYC so long.. these issues do not usually permeate there, it's a huge melting pot and most people are comfortable expressing themselves and not worrying what others call things.. seriously.. I think there may be a cultural difference in perception.
A trip to remaining 'old neighborhood' Brooklyn this time of year is quite something..
everyone still lives in ethic and religious 'pockets'.. so you'll pass through a rather unlit area, with a few lights here and there.. and then BAM, you hit the old Italian blocks, and it's like you just entered a Christmas wonderland..
I guess I'm on a tangent..
However, the stores in the city are with Halls Decked as ever..the streets full of Christmas garland, wreaths, lights..even in the town I live in now outside of NY --- perhaps this is just with major chain businesses that you see 'Christmas' decorations removed?
Also, I am reading into the thread that there is more concern about where this may lead rather than where it is now. The assumption this is 'just the beginning'.. when objectively, it could just be what it is.. less exclusion in major chain marketing and public schools and law buildings. (that's where Mr. O and others in the media are pushing this too far, IMO, they are creating a perception of threat -- they have done that with many an issue these past few years)
If LymeDad's majority statistics are true, I don't think we have to worry about a demise of Christmas.
The school, IMO, should keep Christmas songs and be SURE to add others.. however I guess that gets sticky, because how can they cover all faiths musically..
I agree some slack should be cut there, it's a shame to miss out on that music.. yet, I don't know how I would feel if I did not believe in Christ and my children and I were involved in all the particulars of a big Christmas concert. How the kids feel.
I question whether, if you were in the minority.. some of you would be OK with your children doing such concerts based in a non-Christan religion .. because Christanity is the majority should not mean (in America) that it must be put upon public school children and parents by way of concerts, ect.. tho I think it is rediculous not to be able to SAY Merry Christmas in school..I do not know anything about that incident.
We are, afterall, as Americans who's leaders are in the business of 'improving' other regions of the World -- boasting Democracy and co-existance of all cultures and religions.. perhaps Christians should no longer expect to dominate the public school music programs. Maybe it wasn't the most integrated approach all along (?)
Taking the commandments out of the courthouse.. I remember that, and wasn't sure how I felt at the time.
On one hand, I think if it was part of the architecture and history of the building ..I think it should stay..what's the big deal?
but, again, I also always try to flip it and think how I might feel if such a strong and specific religious symbol, specific to a religion that was not my own.. was in a courthouse..a court of law .. I might not think it was a bad idea to take it down.
I still think these issues raised in above posts are largely inflated fears, and projected paranoia that Christanity is threatened in America..
I just don't see it...and I also feel the sentiment is harmful to our society.. it breeds allot of fear and anger and that is never, EVER good..the reason I'm on this thread is because I am very concerned about this kind of divisive, angry, fear-based stuff that seems to snowball and get all muddied up with emotion.
With all we have to face right now.. I just suggest examining closely whether we really have that much to be worried about in this area.. and how much of it is actually rather appropriate.
(remember, I'm a very Christmas oriented myself)
Mo
Posted by meg (Member # 22) on :
I think some people are missing the point here......Christmas CHRISTmas (thanks Lymedad)!! is a totally Christian based holiday. It is affiliated with no other religion BUT Christianity.
There would be no CHRISTmas without CHRISTians, we wouldn't even be celebrating it at all!
I say if you want a holiday in Winter, or anytime of the year, then set aside a day for it and celebrate away.....I won't interfere with your Quaanzzza, Holiday/Schmaliday, Vacation day, or Happy Rainbow Day.......I won't practice religious intolerance on you, SO DON'T PUSH IT ON ME~!
Have yourself a Merry Little Christmas Now~!!
Posted by lymedad (Member # 8074) on :
Mo,
It's a pleasure to debate our individual positions on this subject and all of the others. I know my son enjoys the mental exercise also, although he's more prone to write about military issues.
The great thing about being an American is that we have the God given right and priviledge to stand on our individual soapboxes and give our points-of-view.
One of your latest posts stated that:
I am reading into the thread that there is more concern about where this may lead, rather than where it is now. The assumption this is 'just the beginning'..when objectively, it could just be what it is..less exclusion in major chain marketing and public schools and law buildings.
I did some very cursory research into the impact groups like the ACLU have attempted to make on our Christian freedoms over the past couple of years. These examples are not imagined, they are real attempts to remove God from our society. All of the examples are from 2004 & 2005.
Haskell County, Oklahoma: A marble monument depicting the Ten Commandments on one side, with the Mayflower Compact on the other sits in Stigler, Oklahoma, the seat of Haskell County. The ACLU has filed a lawsuit seeking removal of the monument.
Cobb County, Georgia: County Commissioner's office is being sued by the ACLU over its pre-meeting prayers. The suit claims one prayer at a recent County Commissioners' meeting ended "in the name of Jesus our Savior," which phrase, according to the ACLU, puts the invocation in violation of the Constitution of the United States.
Tangipahoa Parish, Louisiana: The ACLU has asked a federal judge to jail public school teachers and administrators for allegedly violating a court-imposed ban on school prayers. The ACLU says school officials' violation of the prayer ban "must result in their removal from society."
South Norwood, Massachusetts: Balch Elementary School took down its Nativity scene after the ACLU filed a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the display and contending that its presence on school grounds sends a message that the schools endorse Christianity.
Washington D.C.: Although the National Day of Prayer was established by an act of Congress in 1952, over the past few years the event has faced growing resistance from groups such as the ACLU.
Little Rock, Arkansas: District Court Judge David Pake has had a framed copy of the Ten Commandments in his courtroom since 1994. After almost ten years of the display being on Pake's wall, the Arkansas chapter of the ACLU has decided the display must go, insisting it violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. There is speculation that the Roy Moore case in Alabama had a lot to do with the timing.
Phoenix, Arizona: The ACLU wants a Ten Commandments monument removed from Wesley Bolin Park and is threatening to bring a federal lawsuit to make sure the state complies. The Ten Commandments monument is displayed among several other monuments in the park, all of them having to do with Arizona's cultural distinctiveness.
Clark County, Nevada: The school district's new policy allowing students to pray during commencement virtually mirrors the guidelines on school prayer recently issued by the U.S. Department of Education. But the ACLU claims the policy violates the separation of church and state, even though the district has retained its right to review student speeches ahead of time.
La Mesa City, California: ACLU sent a warning letter to the La Mesa City Council urging the panel to discontinue invocations that include specific references to Christianity. The `prayers' must be non-sectarian or be eliminated. The ACLU said Councilwoman Ruth Sterling has used the name of Jesus Christ and other language unique to Christianity during the invocation prior to council meetings. Sterling said she plans to continue to do so.
Los Angeles, California: The ACLU is demanding the removal of a tiny cross that is among other historic symbols on Los Angeles County's official seal. `The cross is an impermissible endorsement of Christianity,' said the ACLU Foundation of Southern California to county officials.
Los Angeles, California: The city of Los Angeles may have to change its name. Also, cities like San Francisco, San Diego, and Santa Barbara could be looking for new monikers. The reason? They all have religious meaning in their names. Ironically, the most prominent image in the L. A. County seal is one of Pomona, the pagan Roman goddess of fruits and nuts, though the ACLU did not object to the goddess in its push to have the cross removed.
Indianapolis, Indiana: A lawsuit threat from the ACLU of Indiana has prompted a high school in the area to drop its tradition of prayer at graduation.
Mojave Desert, California: The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals upheld a lower court that ruled against a cross, which has become a war memorial and a place of worship at a Southern California desert site known as Sunrise Rock. The case was brought by the ACLU who objected to the religious symbolism of the steel-pipe structure.
Great Falls, South Carolina: ``A federal appeals court recently upheld a judge's ruling that prohibits the Great Falls, S.C., Town Council from opening its meetings with a prayer that mentions Jesus Christ. Darla Kaye Wynne, a Wiccan high priestess (a witch), sued the town after its leaders refused to open meetings only with nonsectarian prayers or to allow members of different faiths to lead the prayers.
Wilmington, Delaware: Local school district has defied a demand by the ACLU to stop opening school board meetings with prayer. Despite the ACLU's threat of a lawsuit, the Indian River School District in Wilmington began its monthly business meeting recently with prayer.
I'm sure there are many more examples of this type of problem.
I can't help but believe that if we continue to push God out of our schools, out of our government and out of our society in general, one day He might get the hint and actually turn His back on our country.
Thursday, September 22, 2005 An Anti-ACLU Rant for 9/22/05
On 1, Oct. 19, 1976 Congress passed an amendment to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 which gave the Courts the power to award attorney's fees in civil rights cases to the prevailing party. 'The Civil Rights Attorney's Fees Awards Act of 1976' was passed with high hopes, and the good intentions that it would help provide relief for individuals that might not otherwise be able to afford the expenses of defending their civil liberties if they were violated. The ACLU, and other judicial activitist have completely turned the intentions of this amendment on its head.
Whenever the ACLU fights voluntary prayer in school, a war memorial because it's in the shape of a cross, ten commandment displays, or keeping the boyscouts from military sponsorship, and they win, you pay for their attorney's fees.
What was intended to protect people from having their civil rights violated has been twisted by the ACLU to use as leverage when they threaten small schools and communities that can't afford to defend themselves from the well funded, and well staffed ACLU bully. Yes, legislation intended to protect civil liberties is often used to supress religious expression by the likes of the ACLU.
There is currently legislation in the House introduced by Representive Hostettler that hopes to remedy its abuse. It is an amendment that limits the attorney fees in Establishment Clause cases to injuctive relief only. In other words, if the ACLU wants to pick a fight over someone praying in public, or a ten commandments display that offends one sensitive athiest, they'll have to dig into their own deep pockets, and it will not come from yours.
We want your voice to be heard in D.C. supporting this legislation. It's really simple, all we need is your autograph.
SIGN THE PETITION TO GET THE ACLU OFF THE TAXPAYER'S DOLE
This was a production of Stop The ACLU blogburst. If you would like to join our efforts to fight the ACLU, it's very simple. Just register at our portal. We will add you to our mailing list, and send you the info you will need. Over 100 blogs already on board. Join us!
Posted by LabRat (Member # 78) on :
To Educate People about the true nature of the ACLU! To EXPOSE the ACLU's Communist Agenda! To bring down the ACLU! LINKS
SITE LINK-The Founders of the ACLU! SITE LINK - More Founders of the ACLU! SITE LINK - ACLU TIME LINE! SITE LINK - The ACLU's Agenda! BULL DOZE THE ACLU STORE STOP THE ACLU BLOG STOP THE ACLU COALITION BIG TABACCO and the ACLU! An example of the hypocrisy of the ACLU, and their far-left pals. Liberal Commies Hate Christianty
TVC Headlines
TVC's Executive Director Debuts On QVC For Bible Game DVD The Revolutionary Communist Party Hides Anti-Christian/Bush Ad Ties Liberal Anti-Defamation League Fears Traditional American Values Planned Parenthood Pulls Letter From Girl Bragging About Statutory Rape Washington State Democrats Market Anti-Christian Bumper Sticker Homosexual-Themed Films Assault Christmas Moviegoers Homosexual Writer Urges Ape-like Sexual Behavior For Humans The War On Christianity TVC Executive Director Makes QVC Debut TVC Chairman Lauds New York Court Ruling Establishing Supremacy Of Traditional Marriage
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Just a tidbit I'm throwing out as a reminder... The First Amendment grants Freedom OF Religion, not Freedom FROM Religion.
As for the ACLU.... Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
LymeDad,
I understand there are clearly personal views here that run deep, and I respect that.
Some of the above instances (I feel) should be addressed by groups that may have concerns regarding them.
I do not think you are being political...but I think some groups and media sources, particularly FOX.. are..
..and today I was surprised to hear that Congress spent 40 minutes discussing a resolution (which was tabled).. but actually spent Congressional session time talking about this very thing.. (specifically regarding 'protecting Christmas')
This was raised by a few Republicans..and not much was done in the end. -- I am perplexed by this level of focus.. with everything this country is facing right now, I do not see this as a top Congressional priority.
Do you think that was in order? (regarding Christmas symbols at this time)
Mo
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mo: Do you think that was in order? (regarding Christmas symbols at this time)
Mo
It's as good a time as any. The Congressmen never DO anything constructive anyway!
Posted by tequeslady (Member # 6832) on :
I wouldn't call myself overly religious, but I am quite disturbed by the apparent move to remove anything with "Christ" in it from our society. In my opinion, it has been getting worse every year.
December 25 is Christmas. It is not a Happy Holiday day. I agree with the person that talked about other religions being free to celebrate their holidays. However, December 25 is to celebrate the birth of Jesus.
The tree is a Christmas tree. The day is Christmas.
I decided earlier this year that I would not trade with any company that chose to use "Happy Holidays" in their advertisements. Where possible, I have followed up with an email to them .
If we don't like this trend, we'd better make a stand now, or nothing will keep it from progressing.
Posted by GreanPea (Member # 3411) on :
Did it ever occur to any of you that "they" aren't trying to remove G-d from our society, but that "they" are trying to uphold the idea of freedom of religion. The idea that we are guaranteed the right to practice religion of our choosing without having other religions pushed on us.
Not everyone in this country is Christian. Even if people in other religions believe in G-d, no matter what they call Him, they do not necessarily believe in Christ.
Maybe the stores are trying to be inclusive when they say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas because not everyone celebrating holidays at this time of year celebrates Christmas. So, by saying Happy Holidays, they will not mistakenly wish a Merry Christmas to someone who doesn't believe in Jesus Christ as the Savior. They are trying to please everyone. They want to sell to people. Makes sense, right?
Maybe the ACLU is trying to eliminate Christian references during public meetings and in public, government-paid-for places, etc. because not all tax-payers/people attending the meetings are Christians and therefore may not want to pray in he name of the Savior Jesus Christ.
Just some food for thought.
Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
Pea,
You put that much more clearly than I could..thanks.
I do believe, even with the specific instances raised, that that is what is going on here.
Some Christians may not like it, but large numbers of Christians are not upset about it at all. Rather than spending time 'defending' Christmas, I'd rather practice it.
I think the reason why this was not a big deal 30, 40, 50 years ago is because largely it was Christanity, and the Jewish religion represented in this country..
Now we have many more religions actively practiced and represented here, and isn't that supposed to be what America stands for? Or is that just a ficade, and betwen the lines..we are thinking Christanity rules. (?)
Incidentally, noone is saying Christmas Day should be called Holiday..this is just in stores during the four week long shopping season to say 'Happy Holidays'! One or two of the school instances is surprising and wrong, IMO, they should let santa into the dance .. but, I think then that is a community issue.. solely Christmas concerts in school, a public school...I don't think are appropriate, when all the children celebrate their own religions with their families and there is diversity.
..the changes made surrounding marketing and in schools are simply inclusive, not exclusive.
Mo
Posted by meg (Member # 22) on :
97% of Americans say they like it the way it is.
It's just a matter of how many people you want to tick off there GreenPea and Mo.....the minority or the majority. Last I looked, majority ruled. That is supposed to be what Democracy is....
By the way....what other religion practices a holiday on Dec 25th?--I mean after all you say they should be included. *********************************
Most Americans like Christmas cheer
By Jennifer Harper THE WASHINGTON TIMES December 16, 2005
It's nearly unanimous: 97 percent of Americans say they are not bothered by public references to Christmas according to a new Gallup poll released yesterday. The practice also doesn't offend those of other faiths -- or no faith. The poll revealed that only 8 percent of non-Christians and 5 percent of those with no faith were perturbed by displays or advertisements which mention "Christmas" rather than a generic or secular equivalent. The finding was "surprising, and perhaps counter to the inclusive rationale for saying 'happy holidays,'?" the survey stated. The rush this season for political correctness is not sitting well among many: 62 percent of the respondents said that the nearly ubiquitous use of "happy holidays" or "season's greetings" over "merry Christmas" in public institutions or stores is "a change for the worse." Only 24 percent called it "a change for the better." In addition, the majority -- 56 percent -- would say "merry Christmas" to someone they were meeting for the first time; 41 percent opted for "happy holidays." The findings are a "backlash" against current trends to emphasize generic, secular greetings, said Lydia Saad of the Gallup News Service. Rip-snorting debates on editorial pages and the airwaves have erupted "as dueling pundits argue whether 'happy holidays' is simply a more inclusive approach to dealing with a multicultural public, or a deliberate slap at Christmas," Ms. Saad noted. "One reason for the broad acceptance of 'merry Christmas' is that the vast majority of Americans are Christians," she continued, adding that current Gallup statistics reveal that 84 percent of the nation is Christian -- and 95 percent of the country celebrates the holiday regardless of their faith. A third of Americans say they are annoyed when stores trim away traditional references to Christmas in displays or ads. Almost half -- 48 percent -- of Republican respondents to the Gallup poll were vexed by the practice, along with 44 percent of conservatives and 42 percent of weekly churchgoers. Among Democrats and liberals, the figures were 17 percent and 21 percent -- less than those who lead less spiritual lives. A quarter of those who seldom or never attend church also took issue with a Christmas-free marketplace. In recent weeks, the American Family Association, the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights and other groups have called for a boycott of major retailers who removed public references to Christmas from their displays or ads. Wal-Mart, one of the targeted companies, denies any such policy. "There seems to be a growing misperception regarding the use of the phrase 'Merry Christmas' at Wal-Mart," the Arkansas-based company said in a recent statement. "Wal-Mart would like to clarify that it has no policy that prohibits an associate from wishing customers 'Merry Christmas.'?" But there were some caveats. Wal-Mart spokeswoman Sarah Clark said, "If 'merry Christmas' is the preferred greeting, that is fine and appropriate. Associates may choose to say 'happy holidays,' which may be more inclusive for happy Hanukkah, happy Kwanzaa, happy Three Kings' Day, merry Christmas and happy New Year." The Gallup poll of 1,013 adults was conducted Dec. 5 to 8.
Posted by 24bit (Member # 6531) on :
The people that claim there's not an offensive on Christmas don't have a clue. The evidence has been brought forward IN MASS, and it's like saying the holocaust didn't exist it's so obvious.
The secularists in this country whine and wimper about it being made up and that the right is being divisive. When in fact it's not just the right, it's about 95% of people in polls that celebrate Christmas.
The secularists should know that if they want to try and change our society, there's going to be a fight. If they don't like fights, then don't try to change things. It's as simple as that.
Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
Aren't there more important fights on the table right now?
If only we could fight terrrorism with such fervor.
Mo
Posted by 24bit (Member # 6531) on :
You can't chew gum and walk at the same time? LOL. When secularism is trying to slowly change our culture, there aren't many things more important than fighting that.
Posted by tequeslady (Member # 6832) on :
Except for the fact that this country was setup as a Republic, not a Democracy. (note that this has nothing to do with the 2 political parties).
quote:Originally posted by meg: 97% of Americans say they like it the way it is.
It's just a matter of how many people you want to tick off there GreenPea and Mo.....the minority or the majority. Last I looked, majority ruled. That is supposed to be what Democracy is....
Posted by Softballmom (Member # 6235) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mo: Lori,
but do feel the reaction to retailers using the term 'Holiday' has been trumped up by Mr. O'Reilly ..as is his style.
He takes an opportunity for irritation and spins it into something folks get irate about.. for a no spin zone, I get awfully dizzy watching his (ahem) "news" show.
Talk about junk TeeVee.. he is single handedly driving a wedge in our society for years. He has had a considerable negative impact --- division. Now he even has a book for kids!!
Mo
Sounds like you need to broaden your information intake. Bill O'riely is not the only on discusion this issue and taking offence to it.
Speaking of TV, How many people remember seeing countless TV shows showing nativity scenes and a story line coinciding with the the birth of Jesus?
I have only seen one this year and it was called Wiseguys I think, and somewhat contrictory to the birth of baby Jesus. Suplimenting Mary with the mistress of a gagster! Whats up with that?
Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
Maybe there are others as well, but 'ol Bill has run a muck with this one.. here is an interesting Congressional exchange on the matter --
Rep. John Dingell (a Christian) read this poem on the House floor -- The poem suggests that the legislature's time might be better spent on other things.
(incidentally -- O'Reilly's edited version characterized the poem as an attack on 'The O'Reilly Factor'... But other parts of the poem, that were excluded on his show, focused on the so-called "war" on Christmas distracting from topics like Hurricane Katrina relief, the war in Iraq, and energy prices.)
The poem in full by Rep Dingell:
'Twas a week before Christmas and all through the House, no bills were passed 'bout which Fox News could grouse. Tax cuts for the wealthy were passed with great cheer, so vacations in St. Barts soon should be near.
Katrina kids were all nestled snug in motel beds, while visions of school and home danced in their heads. In Iraq, our soldiers need supplies and a plan, and nuclear weapons are being built in Iran.
Gas prices shot up, consumer confidence fell. Americans feared we were in a fast track to ... well. Wait, we need a distraction, something divisive and wily, a fabrication straight from the mouth of O'Reilly.
We will pretend Christmas is under attack, hold a vote to save it, then pat ourselves on the back. Silent Night, First Noel, Away in the Manger, Wake up Congress, they're in no danger.
This time of year, we see Christmas everywhere we go, From churches to homes to schools and, yes, even Costco. What we have is an attempt to divide and destroy when this is the season to unite us with joy.
At Christmastime, we're taught to unite. We don't need a make-up reason to fight. So on O'Reilly, on Hannity, on Coulter and those right-wing blogs.
You should sit back and relax, have a few egg nogs.
'Tis the holiday season; enjoy it a pinch. With all our real problems, do we really need another Grinch? So to my friends and my colleagues, I say with delight, a Merry Christmas to all, and to Bill O'Reilly, Happy Holidays.
Ho, ho, ho. Merry Christmas.
Posted by Starphoenix (Member # 2402) on :
I must say I didn't read all the responses. I just want to add that before the Church co-opted it, it was a pagan custom to decorate a tree. Same goes for holly and such.
The Church, in trying to bring in the pagan people, decided to take some of their customs and "make" them Christian.
But, whatever. I call it a Christmas tree, and I'm not even a Christian.
Steph
Posted by tequeslady (Member # 6832) on :
Are you saying that America was founded so that it could try to bring in as many other religions as possible? Exactly where do you find that in any of the writings of the Founding Fathers?
quote:Originally posted by Mo:
Now we have many more religions actively practiced and represented here, and isn't that supposed to be what America stands for?
Mo
Posted by lymie tony z (Member # 5130) on :
Hmmmm
Seems to me freedom of religion is mentioned somewhere in the founding fathers declaration.
Freedom of all religions....even the majority.
As I stated earlier I am tolerant of other religions and they should be tolerant of mine.
I did'nt grow up in the big "melting pot" of new york city...I grew up in the Bigger Melting Pot of the United States of America...founded by many men and women that were christians and fled here to escape religious persecution in England.
If it were'nt for their beliefs injected into the politics in this country we would'nt have any feedoms at all.....we would undoubtedly still have slaves...we would have allowed hitler to conquer all he wanted to as long as he stayed away from our shores...
Oh yeah...we're responsible for some unchristian like stuff too......
However, I kinda like the balance when it all comes down to it.
I don't think we as christians need those that are'nt, telling us how tolerant we need to be of others....after all I believe our Jesus Christ wrote the book on that subject...about 2000 years ago....by example..... So just from a political standpoint...He ought to be celebrated as a great man at the VERY LEAST.
A GREAT MAN WORLD WIDE...it sure would be a better world.....
IT's just that simple...and I know how much you Mo and Kara(oops I mean greenpea) like to keep things simple......
So Merry Christmass to all and Peace on Earth goodwill towards Mankind.....zman
[ 01. January 2006, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: lymie tony z ]
Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
There's no bigger melting pot than NYC. Nowhere else in the whole World, much less the nation.. is as such.
I miss Manhattan soooo much in that regard.. I lived there from age 18 - 35 yrs old.
-- it's still so amazing to me.. in my everyday travels -- errands -- even the most mundane, I'd meet people, have talks, eat food, commute, shop.. hear music .. with people from all over the World. You can go out for anything from Etheopian food (no utensils, and no chairs for that matter -- just cop a squat on a straw stool and dig in with your fingers...) to the best sushi this side of the Pacific, no problem -- on a whim.. or take a cab ride with a driver who has the most amazing life story you could imagine from another land...or some such stranger might help you when you are in trouble.
Some of my most memorable connections were with people I will never see again.
If only the whole nation were this integrated -- we might not have the problems we are having now.
Mo
[ 22. December 2005, 02:22 AM: Message edited by: Mo ]
Posted by meg (Member # 22) on :
Mo: There's no bigger melting pot than NYC. Nowhere else in the whole World, much less the nation.. is as such. ************************************************ Just for the sake of arguing...lol, I think L.A. is on a par with NYC in that regard, and much much bigger to boot. If there is a single problem with NYC, it may be in the citizens who think so highly of it--not you Mo, but some of the citizens are a bit elitist.
I'm glad that you enjoyed NYC for all the reasons you quoted.
I do agree that big cities can have it all tho and then some, most of it---I just don't miss :-)
Merry Christmas EVERYBODY!!!
Posted by lymie tony z (Member # 5130) on :
Ya know I'm sick and tired of hearing your opinion on your New York City....
I grew up in Cleveland Ohio and I defy anyone to question it's diversity of backgrounds...it may be smaller than NYC but that only makes it easier to get close to those of differing backgrounds...
I said the United States as THE melting pot cuz I have been all over it and have seen the diversity first hand thru out the land.
It's just like most of your opinions...if you ain't been there you can't know.....
Besides....I'm an Indians fan and we hate the Yankees....LOL
Posted by charlie (Member # 25) on :
You can get Ethiopian food in Houston too. But you don't have to stand in line in the cold and then pay three times as much for it as you would anywhere else.
It takes at least three people to get me to go to NYC....one to drag me by the heels and a couple more to pry my fingers loose from the furniture legs.
And those hideous tenement buildings(slums) ..I'd rather live in a furniture crate out in the middle of the desert. And as the physical NY climate is ice age, the political climate is stone age.
You can have it Mo and happy you like it. But most of the rest of us don't want to live like sardines in a can.
(same goes for Chicago, Tokyo, Mexico City or any other disastrously overcrowded place.)
Charlie Posted by lymebrat (Member # 3208) on :
Merry Christmas Everyone..
I haven't been around much as my little girl is having a hard time with her juvenile diabetes and I have been too busy trying to celebrate the true meaning of Christmas, with her and the rest of my family, to post about the political correctness etc..of the words "Merry Christmas"
But from my other posts, I am sure you all know where I stand. LOL!
It's been a rough couple of days with my daughter ( see my post about her being in the ER) so as I can't sleep, I thought I pop on over to off topic.
I saw Tonyz's post and just had to say as a Red Sox fan, I dislike like the Yankees too. Very much ..they are sooooo smug and act so superior... Though I did hear that one of the Red Sox's best may be wearing a Yankee uniform in May.. I hope not.
Take care everyone, take care of yourselves, keep safe and warm and enjoy your family and friends on this most special of holidays.."Christmas"
~LymeBrat
Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
Yeeesh..
I'm saying it's different there. Especially in regard to integration, and then I went into a little nastalgia.
It's different than in LA s well, I think because in LA most people are driving, and in NY (unless you are dripping with cash).. life is spent mostly on the street.
Whether you think it's 'better' is clearly personal choice.
I loved it...but I also love where I am now and grew up in a small town as well..
Charlie, if anyone manages to pry your fingers off that chair.. give me a holler..
there's a few places I bet you might take to, just for a quick visit.
Merry Christmas everyone!!
Mo
[ 23. December 2005, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: Mo ]
Posted by 24bit (Member # 6531) on :
New York City is smelly, crowded, expensive, a lot of snotty pushy people, did I say it was crowded? There are nice things to see and do there, but in between the traffic jams, muggings, rapes, smell, very hot humid or freezing cold days, $25 an hour parking, elitist snobs, and pushy rude blue collar workers, it's not a place most would want to be around for very much time.
Posted by GreanPea (Member # 3411) on :
Easy there, y'all.
If Mo wants to love NY, to each his/her own.
by the way,
in the true spirit of this thread,
Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah, everyone!
I'm pretty sure Kwanzaa hasn't started yet, right?
Pea
Posted by CA quest (Member # 6827) on :
What a silly thread. To paraphrase: A tree is a tree is a tree and smells as sweet no matter what you call it.
Why don't those people who want to call it a Christmas tree continue to call it a Christmas tree and those who want to change the name to something else go ahead? I'm too old to change names at this point and time, but I don't care what anyone else wants to call it.
In fact the "Christmas tree" as we know it, is a rather recent man made custom that evolved in Germany and has nothing to do with the birth of Christ. When the German's first imported it to the US many people thought it very unchristian!!! Maybe we should call it a German tree?
See this website for interesting info on the history of the "Christmas tree".
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Too hot to slip comfortably into, so you'd either add cold water or wait til it cools some before you'd get in. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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