quote:

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Originally posted by Raqual:
I saw this movie today, and I was thinking I should move to Canada or France after I settle my law suit against my former employers.

I am seriously considering this now more than ever.

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Before doing that, speak to Canadians about their health care system. I think you'll be shocked.

There are numerous Canadians on this site.
 

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Posted by just don (Member # 1129) on :
 
Yes I agree,,,most Canadians come south across the border to get treated,,,so THATS not the answer!!!

I dont know what it is,,,the guy just turns be off like no other person ever has!! Dont trust him any further than I can throw him,,,and thats not far!!

I like to find the positive in people,just cant find it here!! maybe has to do with his LAST movie that was a coppled up bunch of garbage. The guy gets a GOOD topic to film and he has NO reputation left to spend on it!!!(and I havent see ANY of them and dont want to either)
 

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Posted by meg (Member # 22) on :
 
I know that Canadians have it bad.....but I don't think we have "the best healthcare in the world" as most people say.

At least as far as lymies are concerned, we are truly struggling. Most of us can't afford the drugs or the insurance, let alone the Drs. IF you can get the proper help.

BUT, from the commercials I've seen for this sicko movie, all they show is Bush Bashing. Does he have to make several movies with supposidly differing themes as an excuse to Bash?

Why not just call them what they are?--the Bush Bash films?? #'s 1, 2,and 3!!

This was supposed to be about the medical industry.
I think MM let us down again.
 

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Posted by charlie (Member # 25) on :
 
He's probably still hung up on shopworn old silly socialist crap that doesn't work anywhere except in small doses in tiny countries....

What we have here is broken also, but returning to obsolete stuff isn't the answer....somebody ought to start innovating instead of listening to rabble rousers and out of touch academicians...

Anybody have any ideas? something new would be appreciated but whatever it is it won't come out of committee....

Charlie
 

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Posted by CaliforniaLyme (Member # 7136) on :
 
When I was in my 20s I was raving happily about a utopian socialized medicine system that exists only in my fantasies when a Swedish family friend cut me down with a reminder that the downside of socialized medicine is that they come up with mass protocols where they decide the cuts should be taken so in Sweden they don't treat heart disease at ALL after a certain AGE because the person is considered to be expendable at that age. They do NOT treat everything and some things they will not treat at all and if you get them you are )(!@^@ (kind of like us*)!
 

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Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
 
Right, CA! And if you need surgery, you might have to wait several MONTHS to get it!!!
 

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Posted by LabRat (Member # 78) on :
 
Seems to me if we know where we've been and now know where we're going, all we have to do is figure out how to ease into what we must do sooner or later. We've discovered just recently that the earth is a very dangerous place to live what with big rocks coming in from where ever big rocks come from. Then there is the temperature thing, ice ages and being incinerated by the sun when it decides to die. We keep finding temples that are far older than man, (we thought), so we will never know the whole story of man on earth, what with mass extinctions happening from time to time. Temples found underwater in the Sea of Japan date back 14,500 years and would have been built during an ice age when the sea was much lower! We haven't even mentioned raghead crazies looking to cash in their ratty *** bodies for more virgins than they can handle, anyway everything else makes them look like ugly pikers not much worth worrying about anyhow.

Our history and our future lies in space, (where we have room to run), if we are to have either. I have no idea how to make it work but I'm pretty sure everyone's medical problem will have to be addressed and no one will be sleeping in passageways or under tables! How we successfully manage this migration will be a challenge and a half.

One thing for sure there will have to be some sort of incentive system in place. Using the earth as a base to start and then larger ships traveling in a group, much as a Navel Task Force. I don't suppose there is any limit to the size of a space ship or sky lab, just add on as you can afford.

I can't see any way around some form of socialized medicine. When I lived in New Zealand, my new friends use to brag about their cradle to grave health care, not like you poor Yanks, they would say. Then after a few weeks and a few beers, the horror stories would begin. On the whole, everyone seemed well cared for and healthy. I took a flight physical there and the only furniture I remember in the room was a chair and an eye chart. Not to worry, she got herself right!

There has to be incentive, a profit motive.
 

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Posted by CaliforniaLyme (Member # 7136) on :
 
Well, just saw Sicko and cried during it, no, I'm not kidding, I did. I wish I lived in France or Canada right now!! I wish we had
universal health coverage. A mom in one of
my playgroups from England told me she would have a nurse from the NHS in Britain come sit with her at night when the baby was crying and wouldn't stop and the person would make her tea and take turns holding the baby and talk to her!!! Wow. What a different place, where that is taken for GRANTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

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Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
 
everyone i've talked to who has seen this movie has cried during it. seriously, our healthcare system here is so f*****!
 

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Posted by savebabe (Member # 9847) on :
 
I just got back from Sicko, and my husband and I were both crying. Michael Moore really exposes the political and corporate corruption that surrounds our health care system.

It is criminal that people are dying and being dumped out on the streets while CEO's and stockholders are profiting from denying individuals treatment.

The system has to be changed. American people don't deserve this form of abuse, we deserve better.
 

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Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
 
The Canadians will disagree with you.
 

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Posted by kelmo (Member # 8797) on :
 
There has to be a better system, but the one in England and Canada is horrific. Like Lymetoo, I have had conversations with other lymies in England and Canada. They all travel here.

Just look at British teeth, for crying out loud.

We also need to stop suing our doctors for everything. That is another reason health care is so high. John Edwards has been the power behind the closing of many doctors and hospitals. He's made a fortune from suing the health care industry. I wonder if he has an answer to make it better?

My guess is not.
 

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Posted by Vermont_Lymie (Member # 9780) on :
 
I have not seen Sicko yet, and I cannot wait to see it. Great that Moore has taken this important subject on.

The health care system in Canada and the UK do some things well, and not others.

I have some experience as a consumer in both of those systems, and to generalize (maybe over generalize!), I would say the thing that they do well is what we so desparately need here in the US -- basic coverage for everyone. And better preventative health programs.
 

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Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
 
i think lyme disease is an anomaly. when it comes to lyme, the health care system everywhere sucks horribly, and (strangely enough) the US seems to be the best place to get care. i can't think of another disease in which that is the case.

GENERALLY speaking, socialized medicine is a far more ethical system, in my opinion. (and yep, i agree with you, vermont lymie.)
 

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Posted by MagicAcorn (Member # 8786) on :
 
Oh it's ethical all right. Everyone gets too wait their turn for chemo. Sometimes you wait so long you're already dead when they call to schedule your treatment.
 

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Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
 
okay, so obviously it's not ideal. but at least it's not based on who has the money to pay and who doesn't, like it is in this country. FAR more poor folks die from disease/injury here than rich people with the same afflictions. in the US, medicine is all about money, power, and stuffing the pharmaceutical and insurance companies' pockets.

[ 02. July 2007, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: heiwalove ]
 

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Posted by SunRa (Member # 3559) on :
 
most here in the US really defend our capitalist free market and have a knee jerk reaction to most socialized programs. and, not surprisingly, most Americans opposed to socialized medicine have jobs and health insurance.

yeah the waiting lists are a big problem, but people can wait a few months or alternatively, not get the treatment/surgery at all which unfortunately is often the case here.

of course it's not a perfect system, but I have family and friends in the UK and Canada that aren't complaining. Now lyme treatment is another story.

I hear good things about the film and look forward to seeing it. due to my symptoms though I can't handle movie theaters so I'll have to wait for it to come out on DVD
 

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Posted by MagicAcorn (Member # 8786) on :
 
1.) We wouldn't even have the medical staff to support this. Think of that in realistic terms. We have a doctor and nursing shortage already. This will only make it dramatically worse. And with the crappy pay that accompanies socialized systems fewer will go into those fields.

2.) You would have very little freedom in treatment or doctors. In fact you would have none. None, nada, nunca. Say goodbye to your lyme doctors completely.

3.) You think you wait long now to see a LLMD. What if you had to wait six months to see a dentist for a toothache? Three months to start radiation? Four months for a bypass?

Most people just see everyone getting treatment and that is great in theory, but they do not see the very real obstacles to that being a doable option.
 

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Posted by LabRat (Member # 78) on :
 
.....and that term ``free'' keeps popping up. Sorta makes your mouth water don't it! Sort of like a free puppy or surprise your wife with a free kitten! Then there's ``one month free, (with a ten year contract).... Then there's the story about the camel with the long nose...
 

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Posted by dontlikeliver (Member # 4749) on :
 
Here in the UK healthcare is not totally FREE, but it's considerably cheaper than insurance premiums in the US. We pay our premiums through our taxes. Prescriptions are great though, I have to say. Flat fee for any drug of �6.80, which is about $13.60 and doctors make housecalls.

The system in the UK is great for some things - like broken bones and some other routine and common ailments/things, but NOT for "unusual things" like Lyme disease, which is why many of us go to the USA for treatment for that, if we're lucky enough to be able to afford to do that.

If you're above a certain age, there is discrimination. My father in law was told there was "no point" in another bypass op when he was 75 (he's now 85, so there was plenty of point!). Being the stiff-upper-lip Brit, taught not to "make a fuss", he didn't.

People here get much sicker or even die while waiting for treatment (chemo or heart ops for instance)- on the other hand many don't and they then get their free treatment. Waiting lists are long. I waited 6 months for an MRI and just waited 12 weeks to see a Gynecologist after being referred by my GP about a problem I had at Christmastime - but it was "free". My friend has breast cancer and she was on chemo in 3 weeks - what would have been the speed from point of lump discovery to chemo in US? (thankfully, I have no experience with that, although plenty of experience with US system pre-moving here.)

Also, if you go to the doctor for something and think maybe they'll do a test (blood/saliva, anything), usually they do not but take a wait and see approach, which I used to find very hard to accept coming from America. Even my English friends would joke that it takes an average of six visits to the doctor for the same persistent problem before they consider a blood test. (cost).

There is also rationing. You get better or worse treatment depending on where you live; called the "postcode lottery" (zipcode lottery). So, if you have cancer, you might get Tamoxifen or Herceptin in one area, but not another because the local Health Authority can't afford the drug.

There are health visitors who will visit a new mother and baby regularly to check on progress, but I honestly have not heard of one coming out to just "sit and make tea" and keep a mother company for a crying baby. Their purpose is to come and just make sure the baby is reaching certain milestones at certain points - a quick checkup. I suspect the health visitor was probably already there on a visit and the baby was crying - there is an increasing shortage of resources. That would be extraordinary; certainly not routine.

There are also terrible problems here in the hospitals with (lack of) infection control. People go into the hospital, maybe with something minor or minor operation, and not too infrequently catch MRSA or C Difficile while in there and either get very sick, or die.
 

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Posted by MagicAcorn (Member # 8786) on :
 
Labrat Free!

It comes at an enormous tax burden on the working folks. In Canada besides the normal Federal Income Tax each Province has Provisional Taxes (like our State taxes) and additional Provisional Health Premium taxes on top of that leaving many people in Canda in the 50 percent tax bracket. That is an outrage.

In England I would be in the 40 percent tax bracket and in Ireland the 42 percent tax bracket.

When I add up the cost of insurance with our current tax bracket here the math says I will take a much bigger hit. I must admit money speaks to me here. We work hard for the money. I already carry a big burden with folks that don't have coverage that need medical attention. For me to take a bigger hit in the pocket, get substandard care compared to what I'm used to isn't all that inviting either.

No, our system isn't perfect far from it but the solution doesn't lie in adopting other countries models that aren't any more efficient/beneficial than our present one.

Like Charlie said I wish someone had something new to add to this debate.
 

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Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
 
Thank you Acorn and liver....You said it best!
 

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Posted by charlie (Member # 25) on :
 
This is an absolutely excellent thread.
 

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Posted by SunRa (Member # 3559) on :
 
Yes there is a shortage of doctors but the problem could be more about how they choose to distribute their time.

more drs here are seeing less and less patients and many are gravitating towards the higher-paying jobs (sports medicine, etc) that only serve the wealthy and those with good insurance plans.

As far as freedom of doctors, I don't know enough about it in other countries (although I'm pretty sure the French have more freedom ?), but I can't imagine that universal coverage is more restrictive than some of our HMOs. One of my best friends is Finnish and she's stunned at how I'm being treated here. when she had an injury she was able to see a top specialist over there, one who treats their famous hockey players,etc. Although I know it's not exactly fruitful comparing Finland to the US.

I'm not sure but the impression I got from my UK relatives was that the long waiting lists were only for 'elective' procedures. of course I know that determining what's 'elective' could get very controversial.

But my cousin in the UK was able to see a specialist rather quickly for something important while I had to wait months to see a neurologist even though I was having seizures. And I've actually had to wait longer for a GYN appt than the 12 weeks that DLL mentioned. So I don't think America is all that much different.

Except...families there aren't going bankrupt, losing their homes, or watching their children die just because the insurance companies want to make an extra buck.

we do have a higher quality of health care available, but only a select group are able to receive it and therefore we have some of the worst health care stats of any industrialized country (lower life expectancy, higher rates of infant deaths, etc,)

Both France and the UK have lower rates of death from cancer and heart disease too. Partly because we have more of it, but also because people there are more likely to go to a dr early on since they can.

I'm personally in favor of universal coverage with the option of private coverage. I think Germany has something like that. I'm not sure, I have lots more to learn about all this. But for those fortunate enough to have money or a good job and who wouldnt want to be caught dead going to the same dr the poor see (gasp!), then let them pay their own way....(as long as they can do without a 6th car and pay the extra taxes for the 44 million or so that currently have no coverage at all).

whew! it's rare when I'm having a good head day and could think and sit here writing for this long...it's fun

oh and I appreciated reading DLL's first hand experience with their system and by all means, correct me if any of my info above is wrong.

I'd love to hear from the French or Germans about their health care experiences as I know their systems are set up differently than that of Canada and the UK.
 

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Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
 
SunRa - you said absolutely everything i wanted to say, and then some. thank you!

especially this:

I'm personally in favor of universal coverage with the option of private coverage... But for those fortunate enough to have money or a good job and who wouldnt want to be caught dead going to the same dr the poor see (gasp!), then let them pay their own way....(as long as they can do without a 6th car and pay the extra taxes for the 44 million or so that currently have no coverage at all).


absolutely. i agree 100 percent. you make me feel less alone.

xo.
 

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Posted by Geneal (Member # 10375) on :
 
I pay an incredible amount of money for health insurance.

It is private as I have been unemployed since Katrina, but was a contract employee

Prior to the hurricane.

We have gone without a lot of stuff. I made a choice to not go without health insurance.

Thank God. I would have been dead if I didn't have it prior to being dx. with Lyme disease.

Now, I would never let my children starve, but

I certainly wouldn't want them to inherit an outstanding bill for medical services.

It is about money. Not about our health.

Shoot, half the time you don't get the "care" that you are paying for.

Lawsuits, malpractice insurance, and basically uninsured people

Have all contributed to driving up the costs of insurance.

I know that in New Orleans Charity Hospital was basically a "free" hospital.

Flooded and ruined by Katrina.

Another hospital in the area has just filed suit with the state of La.

Stating they have lost over 10 million dollars by treating patients that used

To go to Charity. They want that money back from the state as the state funded Charity hospital.

Let's also remember that insurance companies have a contracted rate for reimbursement.

Let's say a doctor who has a contract with BC/BS for services charges 100.00 for an office visit.

Let's say contract reimbursement rate is only 42.00.

I think prices for medical services are hyper-inflated.

May be a means of upping contractual reimbursement monies.

Who knows?

It is my belief that every child till the age 21 should get free health care in the US.

However, that would limit my abilities to make a decision as to which specialist I may

Prefer or a second or third opinion.

Darn frustrating situation. I am not sure if it can be fixed.

Just like social security.

Hugs,

Geneal
 

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Posted by David95928 (Member # 3521) on :
 
Does anyone have any information on what percentage of people in these countries (mentioned Canada, England, France, Germany, Finland) would prefer to be under our system?
 

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Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
 
that's an interesting question, david, and i'd like to know the answer too. however, i'm not sure an unbiased poll has been, or even could be, done.

from personal experience, i have several friends from canada and england who live in the US now, and ALL of them far prefer their home healthcare systems to ours.

[ 09. July 2007, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: heiwalove ]
 

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Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
 
i just saw Sicko, and cried my eyes out. no joke.

EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO LIVES IN THE US NEEDS TO SEE THIS FILM.

and meg, bush appears only a small handful of times in the film (as do references to him). the current failing system of american healthcare dates back to nixon, which mr. moore clearly elucidates in the film.

AMAZING AMAZING AMAZING film.

kudos to michael moore. i wish i could give him a giant hug and thank him personally for making this movie.
*

(raqual, i am seriously considering moving to canada as well. part of me thinks i should stay here and fight to make things right, and part of me just wants to get the hell out as soon as i can. i certainly don't want to raise a family in this country, that's for sure.)

[ 09. July 2007, 11:28 PM: Message edited by: heiwalove ]
 

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Posted by tailz (Member # 10014) on :
 
I can't wait to see it. Anybody live in the Kutztown, PA area and want to go see it with me?

I think this guy has guts. I think I'll cry, too, during this - either that or feel Lyme rage.
 

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Posted by Soleilpie (Member # 8481) on :
 
I don't think our health care system in the US is perfect but I don't think it means we should completely revamp the entire system because 15% of our citizens are uninsured. Right now we have many choices that other countries do not. We probably need to take a little bit from every system and incorporate it into ours. We also need to consider tort reform.
 

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Posted by Boomerang (Member # 7979) on :
 
Excellent points in this thread. I just find it appalling to read that people are considered expendable because of their age. Pitiful.....

I agree, soleil.....I don't think we want to limit our choices in the U.S.

Acorn, I didn't realize those enormous tax percentages. 50%?? Duh to me.
 

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Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
 
soleilpie, moore's film doesn't advocate universal healthcare because 15 percent of people are uninsured.. in fact, he ONLY focuses on insured people in his film. you get to see firsthand how, despite the fact that these people have insurance, their insurance companies fail (or deny) them time and time again, all in the name of profit.

this is NOT an uncommon experience. our healthcare system, even for those who are insured, is shamefully, horribly flawed.

[ 10. July 2007, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: heiwalove ]
 

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Posted by Soleilpie (Member # 8481) on :
 
heiwalove

I agree that it is a terrible shame when those who are insured cannot get approved for necessary treatment.

(Anyone have the stats on how often that is the case?)

However, I'm not sure how universal health care is going to be better for those who are already insured?

It's entirely possible that they will still not get the treatment they need even with a universal health care plan.

The only difference may be lesser out of pocket expenses for the same kind of care or lack there of.

But honestly, I think our taxes would go up to equate to the amount people are currently paying for their premiums.

If it's not about the 15%, then honestly I think the best way to help our system is to put a cap on malpractice settlements,

which would then decrease the cost of malpractice insurance, which would then decrease the amount doctors charge, which

would then decrease the amount of our premiums, which would then pave the way for the uninsured to become insured.

Also, the cost of medications needs to come down considerably.

Take what I said above with a grain of salt because I honestly don't know if malpractice settlements is the real cause of our premiums being sky high.

It's a given that if they also put a cap on what doctors can charge for necessary procedures, that would help immensely.

But then we would be allowing the gov't to step in to get control of something they don't control now. But maybe that's ok?????
 

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Posted by SunRa (Member # 3559) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Soleilpie:

But then we would be allowing the gov't to step in to get control of something they don't control now. But maybe that's ok?????

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they do control it now.

the government, pharmaceutical industry and insurance companies are more connected than we want to know.

with universal health care, the pharmaceutical industry will take a big hit as will many of our good friends. Just look at who some of Bush's biggest campaign contributers were.

the govt puts tons of money into keeping private health care alive, yet consistently pulls money from federal and state health (those who need it most).

God Bless America.
 

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Posted by David95928 (Member # 3521) on :
 
I've read reports, but can't site them at the moment, that nearly half ofall personal bankruptcies are triggered by major medical among people who are insured.
 

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Posted by lymedad (Member # 8074) on :
 
First let me identify myself - I'm a social conservative, right wing Christian, registered Republican, retired military. Now no one has to guess.

My thoughts on socialized medicine; if the government were to handle my family's medical care like they have Social Security, federal income taxes and immigration, I'll stick with what we have, choices.

My daughter has been extremely ill. We, as a family, have had to dig deep financially, research this disease thoroughly, hunt diligently for the right medical care, work more than I care to, longer than I wanted to; but we have had the freedom to do it all without government intervention or controls. I'll stick with what we have - freedom.

My thoughts on Michael Moore - ever see one of his movies where both sides of an issue were thoroughly covered? Sicko (haven't seen it, don't care to); any interviews with a broad range of citizens from socialized medicine countries? Or was it another hack job at our government and GWB in particular??

Did Mr. Moore have any thoughts on how to fix the problems? Had he thought through the issue enough to offer a plan for a better way of continuing with our freedom to choose?

Mr. Moore seems to enjoy the freedoms and money he makes for his efforts, yet never has anything constructive to add to our society.

For those who have been fighting Lyme and other TBD; did we need Michael Moore to tell us about our troubled health care system? Have we not seen the problems with "government" controls concerning Lyme already, e.g. the CDC guidelines being directly responsible for the misdiagnosis of Lyme in hundreds of cases?

Don't mean to be harsh, but for those who would choose to move to another country just for their health care; I'll donate what little money I have left to help defray your moving costs (do me a personal favor and take Michael Moore with you, please).

Troubling times, heh?
 

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Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
 
lymedad, michael moore went up to totally random people in canada, france, and england and asked them about their healthcare systems. he got positive responses ACROSS THE BOARD. in fact, in canada he was TRYING to find someone who would tell him something negative about universal healthcare - he went to a couple small, conservative towns and sauntered into an emergency room waiting area (the longest someone waited to see a doctor? 45 minutes). no one he talked to could imagine being under a system like the one we have in the US, in which if you didn't have insurance you'd be billed hundreds or thousands of dollars to see an ER doctor.

he even went to a golf course and talked to a random older man golfing there and asked him about the healthcare in canada. the man replied something to the effect of 'i wouldn't change it for the world. in this country we help each other out. those who can afford it pay more taxes so that everyone, including those who can't, gets free healthcare.'

michael moore responded with a chortle - 'what are you, a socialist? you must be a member of the green party, right?"

and guess what? the man said, 'no, actually, i'm a member of the conservative party.' he went on to explain that in canada, universal healthcare isn't a party issue. it's accepted as the better option by pretty much everyone, regardless of party affiliation or status as a liberal/conservative/something in-between. in fact, i think he even said that if anyone tried to take away universal healthcare, there'd be a HUGE uprising - involving everyone, conservatives and liberals alike.
*

the first step in changing something that needs fixing is admitting something is wrong, that it needs to be fixed, and identifying WHY it needs to be fixed. moore's film does just that. his personal solution is universal, single-payer healthcare (with which i agree) - we are the only industrialized nation in the entire world that has yet to adopt such a system. no, he doesn't spend a lot of time detailing exactly how that would work (maybe because we have tons of working models in other countries from which to choose?); but his film will get people talking, thinking, debating - just like in this thread and the one in 'medical.' even people who think he's the devil incarnate will join the debate, we'll all start talking about the travesty that is our current healthcare system, and we'll start brainstorming what to do about it. THAT is democracy at work. that is what mr. moore is contributing to, and even, it could be argued, making happen.

personally, i'm glad michael moore still lives in this country. he's dedicated his life to exposing what's wrong, in hopes of changing things for the better. i think that takes a LOT of guts. i struggle with that - wanting to stay here and fight and work for what i think is right, and just feeling in my heart that a country that refuses to take care of its children is no place to raise a family.

people accuse moore of hating america - he doesn't. the fact that he's working for change indicates just how much he loves this country.
*

"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." - Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

"May we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
- Theodore Roosevelt
 

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Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
 
by the way, in countries with universal healthcare, you CAN choose. if you have the money to do so, you can go wherever you want, just like in this country. for example, i think france has the option of buying private health 'insurance' - it doesn't replace the existing system, it just gives more options to those who can afford it.

like SunRa said earlier in this thread:

I'm personally in favor of universal coverage with the option of private coverage... But for those fortunate enough to have money or a good job and who wouldnt want to be caught dead going to the same dr the poor see (gasp!), then let them pay their own way....(as long as they can do without a 6th car and pay the extra taxes for the 44 million or so that currently have no coverage at all).


indeed.
 

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Posted by LabRat (Member # 78) on :
 
Be careful what you wish for. I'm very happy where I live and with my medical care and I don't want a change. If you want a change, would you accept a single provider with the restrictions that would surely come in the interest of economy as Hitler did with ``the useless eaters''? How about a single employer for the whole country to guarantee full employment? The best medical care in the world cannot protect you from starvation if you have no money for food! One could possibly lead to the other.

If you rely on moore to help you form your ideas, like on Cuba for an example, did he fail to mention the number of Cubans that drowned trying to make it to this horrible country.

When Americans start fleeing America then I might be interested in what moore is selling.
 

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Posted by Boomerang (Member # 7979) on :
 
Nothing Michael Moore does is "random." No way the people in his movie were "randomly" selected.

Good posts, lymedad and labrat. I agree!
 

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Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
 
boomerang:

how do you know that? where is your source?

labrat:

this is exactly what the 'red scare' tactic is all about. i see it's still in full effect, decades after the cold war has supposedly ended.

does no one else find it ABSURD that we are the only industrialized nation in the entire world without universal healthcare?? do you truly believe it's because we're 'the best' and we know the one and only 'Truth and Way'? are you seriously that arrogant and that prideful? canada, france, england, switzerland, denmark, finland, and on and on and on.. they've all got it wrong! WE ARE NUMBER ONE GOD BLESS AMERICA ETC ETC!
*

also, the debate over the cuban revolution is a whole other topic, but which cubans, exactly, fled cuba? that's right, the rich ones. they were terrified of having their money and power and status as the ruling class taken away from them.

and that's where i'll stop, because by now you probably all think i'm a (gasp) communist! (i'm not - a social democracy is my ideal. which we are so far from having in this country it isn't even funny.)
*

michael moore may indeed have an agenda with his movies - of course, he's trying to prove a point, he's trying to get americans to see that our healthcare system is SERIOUSLY flawed, and that switching to universal healthcare is something concrete we can do to improve it. obviously, his film is trying to make that argument. HOWEVER, that said, his facts are solid. look on his website for proof (his sources are almost entirely government cited):

http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/checkup

he's taken on some big guns in his career (no pun intended) - the NRA, and now the healthcare industry. his facts must be one hundred percent accurate, otherwise he risks being sued by these industry GIANTS. michael moore against the insurance industry? i'm sorry, but anyone who thinks he would have a chance in hell in that case is seriously off their rocker.

he has not been sued ONCE, because his facts are too solid. every single statement he makes is checked and checked and checked again. he has no other choice - his very livelihood is on the line.
 

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Posted by LabRat (Member # 78) on :
 
Christ! Have I got another one to raise!? I'm guessing you've never experience socialized medicine, I did for some twenty odd years and thought it was great and I defended it against all comers, much as you do Moore. While I have no intention of engaging you in an argument, we are just too different to even pretend to try to see the others point of view.

I can offer you one classic difference between socialized and private practice with financial incentive. I don't know if you have ever experience the ``joy'' of an ``arterial stick'', where blood is drawn from an artery deep in the wrist. In private practice a little deadener is used over the injection site followed by a new disposable needle. It is virtually painless. When checking for blood gas, this is repeated every four hours or so.

With socialized, you can probably forget the pain killer unless your ``somebody'', The stick will probably be from a large gauge re-sharpened, re-useable needle wielded by a novice.

Now in the overall scheme of things it all works out the same, health wise, it's just how you get there!

Youshi in Japan likes his fish, rice and sake and would be lost with out the sound of the wind chimes late at night. He works his *** off to provide for his family as best he can.

Patty in Ireland likes his beer and believes in Leprechauns, he also believes he has good medical care. Here at home, you believe in moore and think our system sucks. I'll tell you the truth, the Leprechauns are looking better. At least more believable!

We will have socialized medicine in this country, sooner or later, later is better. If it happens slowly enough, where we can tweak it as we go and we can make it acceptable to all I would think. Time for me medication.
 

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Posted by just don (Member # 1129) on :
 
MY favorite oxemoron--

I am from the government,,,and I am here to help!!!
 

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Posted by LabRat (Member # 78) on :
 
Yes, and it's right up there with, "and your fair share is"....

Don't you just hate someone else diciding what "your fair share is".
 

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Posted by MagicAcorn (Member # 8786) on :
 
I am from Ireland but became a naturalized American.

Here is a sampling of just how terrible the socialized Irish system is and at a tax rate of 42 percent it is dispicable.

Your money or your life?

In January 2005, Michael X, a courier driver, went to see his GP complaining of recurrent diarrhoea and passing some blood. Following an examination, his GP sent a letter to arrange for an appointment with a gastro-enterologist for specialist assessment. His appointment arrived in the post - he could see the consultant in July, six months later.

He duly attended in July and was told by the specialist he needed urgent hospital investigation. He was given a date for admission three weeks later but a week before this date, his admission was cancelled as there was a bed shortage at the hospital. He was subsequently given a new appointment for late October. However, only two days before this booked admission date, he was again phoned and his appointment cancelled; the reason this time was an outbreak of 'vomiting bug' at the hospital. The secretary who phoned him apologised for the delay.

He was given a new appointment and finally, 11 months after he first sought advice, he had his 20 minute bowel test. Unfortunately, he was diagnosed with cancer of the bowel. (The very thing his GP said he needed to go to hospital to be tested for). He was operated on two days later and made a good recovery. However his diagnosis was complicated by the fact that the cancer had spread beyond the wall of his gut. He remained optimistic but just before Christmas 2006 he became quite ill and had to give up work. He died last month.

It has since emerged that if 'Michael X' had had private insurance he could have seen the consultant within a few weeks of his GP visit in January of 2005. In all probability his cancer would have been caught in time and he would still be alive. It is worth mentioning that he is sadly missed by his wife, three children, and all his friends.

So What Do We Do?

With a general election looming in the Republic, a key issue is likely to be the ongoing problems in the health service. Long waiting lists, a shortage of beds and the persistant threat of catching the MRSA bug, have all contributed to a widespread sense that something is not right. Add to this, the scandals around the Leas Cross nursing home and the Neary case in Drogheda - two widely different cases which nonetheless underline the poor treatment that can sometimes be meted out to vulnerable patients. The key question is what is to be done and where lies the solution?

One powerful lobby group, aided and abetted by the PD Health Minister, Mary Harney, has been ably promoting the 'private health care' model. Their vision is similar to what's available in the USA, where the quality of health and medical care received is tied closely to the reality of 'what can you pay for'. In other words if you can't afford care, it's 'tough luck'.

As the 'Michael X' case shows we are already someway down the road to having this US health care model. Right now "in the Republic" there are two health services in operation. One, provided by the health insurance system (VHI, Quinn-BUPA and Vivas), guarantees immediate and top level care. The second, paid for through our taxes, is also top notch - the problem is accessing it. Long waiting lists, under- funded staffing levels and reduced resources insure long and sometimes tragic delays for patients.

Two Tiers

This Republic's two-tier heath system is established government policy, allowing some people to buy their way to the top of the treatment queue. It's a disgrace but it is by no means the end of the story. What is now becoming increasingly obvious is that there is also a government policy to under-fund the public health care system so as to build demand for 'private' health care. Sounds cynical? Look around and see what's happening. (Eighteen months to get your dodgy knee seen by a specialist in a public clinic. Not happy? The same doctor can see you privately next week!)

Another example of this policy has come to light in the Cork area in the neo-natal care unit. The unit has become the focus of a HSE reorganisation plan which, on face value, looks great: the unit is to be doubled in size to 50 beds, and moved to a new modern location. But there's one problem. Although the unit is doubling in size the staffing levels are not - they're being left as they were! So the nursing staff already completely over-stretched in what is an intensive hands-on job, are now being asked to accept intolerable and potentially dangerous conditions in the name of a 'business plan'.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Across the health service problems abound to do with understaffing, contracting out of work, casualisation and poor pay. Workers are fighting back, particularly in areas that directly concern their own particular sections, but the overall problems facing health workers, as well as the massive problem of access, is not. Health care should be a right, after all, not something to be costed and delivered according to your income.

How can we fight back? The fundamental issue is that the forthcoming general election will have no impact. The present government and the 'government-in-waiting' all accept the basic two-tier system we now have. Whereas what we need is to get rid of this!

An important first step that could be made is to work towards the coming together of a network of health workers who can link workers struggling in the service across a wide number of areas, sections and issues. Such a network is desperately needed in terms of extending solidarity between workers. But it could also play a big role in laying the basis for the promotion of a model for health care that is a real alternative to the present mess.

Kevin Doyle
 

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Posted by MagicAcorn (Member # 8786) on :
 
Did anyone notice in my article how Ireland is looking into adopting our model because theirs is failing miserably.

I sure hope so.
 

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Posted by LabRat (Member # 78) on :
 
Informative post magic, I was thinking of my treatment here where I was diagnosed, a doctor made a phone call and I was on my way to the heart hospital where I had a team forming to do a procedure on me. I guess it's true that you don't know what you've got till it's gone!
 

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Posted by just don (Member # 1129) on :
 
Magic one,
Sounds as if Ireland would have LESS patients to treat. Most of them are dead before their time!! Sounds like our system isnt so bad!! And my understanding is the poor and needy (and uninsured)get treated anyway and written off!!
 

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Posted by Boomerang (Member # 7979) on :
 
I did notice that part of your article, Magic. Thanks for sharing.....

Very sad story about Michael X. I am sorry.

Labrat, glad you got the quick treatment you needed!!
 

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Posted by LabRat (Member # 78) on :
 
Me too! I thought of another irony. My GP is a little Cuban. My cardiologist is Lebanese! I'm teaching him Blackjack, (a little at a time) so long as he keeps me alive, we have each other by the short and curl lies! If I go he's left with only part of a system!
 

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Posted by Boomerang (Member # 7979) on :
 
I am speechless. Is your doctor a rich cuban?

lol... just kidding.
 

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Posted by LabRat (Member # 78) on :
 
A gold medal swimmer but these foreigners are like cockroaches, they come over here and live off the smell of an oily rag, suck up all this training, take up all the good jobs and us locals have to .......
 

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Posted by lymedad (Member # 8074) on :
 
LabRat,

I think I've finally met my match. Here all these 60 years I thought I was the world's biggest cynic.

Thank you for the breath of fresh air. I don't feel so lonely now.

At times I think the liberals have actually taken over the earth, but you have given me hope.

Please keep your Lebanese MD healthy so that he/she (there I go being PC) can keep you around a long time.
 

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Posted by LabRat (Member # 78) on :
 
Thank ye! The libs are gaining tho. They are trying to get the voting age lowered to grade school. They got this same thread going over in medical. I thought we had "won" but the suckers just packed their ditty bag and went over there to a warmer crowd. Like my old pappy use to say, " you can't pin a ballarina's skirt while she's dancing".
 

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Posted by David95928 (Member # 3521) on :
 
No comment.
 

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Posted by CaliforniaLyme (Member # 7136) on :
 
The idea of foreigners is interesting. I have a funny story!!!

When my ex husband and I bought our house o' doom here in Aptos (where I got Lymed clearing the brush from it) we threw a HUGE party!!! A big BBQ!! This was about 2 weeks prior to me getting sick!!

I had just met this redheaded Christian woman local from Aptos at the park and I invited her too.

We had so many people there- friends- friends- friends!!!! About 60 people!!!

So this redheaded woman comes up to me with a hunted look during the BBQ, which was going beautifully, stares around at everyone and says,

"How come you have so many foreigners here? There's only ONE American couple."

The ONE "American" couple was the only Anglo couple- Todd, a friend of my husbands, and his girlfriend who was and is Swedish, not American- and who, despite her blondeness and bluedness, was the ONLY foreigner there.

Anyway, it was a weird moment. I realized that some people in this world are very racist!!!

Deja vu!!!

Thank god for immigration. I am a descendant of one of the first 500 as they are called, if I wanted I could be a member of the DAR. I am blonde and blue myself.

I am actually a conservative in CA for my views on illegal immigration because I am against it and don't think people should be rewarded for illegality- BUT I think legal immigrants are some of the best citizens we have!!! South Asia in particular has contributed amazing people to our culture!!

There are so many Americans who ARE unwilling to do work that other people WILL do gladly.

We are all immigrants to this land unless you're a Native American.

But we all have different opinions!!! That is why politics are best left off this board!!!
 

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Posted by LabRat (Member # 78) on :
 
Cal. I'm in agreement with you. You can't hate someone till you give them a name and put them in a group, after that I think it gets easier. Then every time you get around ``those people'', or they start protesting the temperature of tap water in subsidized housing, you have to work at not being ****ed! So long as we sound pretty much alike and our custom or superstitions don't poke anyone in the eye, we should be having fun! Diversification, makes life interesting and keeps it from being boring, especially interracial marriage, where the wife hides a machete for those ``beno'' meetings. There'll be no more of this BS and there will me no more or that BS! A guided discussion really, but you'd best keep up!
 

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Posted by CaliforniaLyme (Member # 7136) on :
 
We agree on that Labrat- I am ashamed to say that I have put a group of people in a group called IDSA and "Steerites" and I do find myself soemtimes hating them- and then I have to PRAY for them to find guidance and all that stuff!!

But sometimes I do hate that group!!!

I do-
 

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Posted by lymedad (Member # 8074) on :
 
I know this is more of a thread concerning Michael Moore than it is about true health care, but I thought I'd relate an experience I recently had with my new primary care physician:

After two visits with this new guy and exhaustive lab tests, he said I was doing "fairly well for a man my age", I turn 60 in October.

A little concerned about that comment, I couldn't resist asking him, "Do you think I'll live to be 80"?

He asked, "Do you smoke tobacco or drink alcoholic beverages?"

"No," I replied. "I don't do drugs, either."

Then he asked, "Do you eat greasy foods like rib-eye steaks and barbecued ribs?"

I told him that, "No, my other doctor said that all red meat is unhealthy!"

He then asked me if I spent a lot of time in the sun, like playing golf, boating, fishing or relaxing at the beach?"

"No, I don't," I told him.

He then asked, "Do you have a lot of sex at this point in your life?"

"No," I said. "I don't do any of those things."

Then he looked at me and asked, "Then why do you give a crap if you live to be 80 or not"?
 

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Posted by meg (Member # 22) on :
 
...amen!
 

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Posted by CA quest (Member # 6827) on :
 
I think we need to define our terms very carefully.

As I understand it, and as MM reiterated: Universal Health Care is not Socialized Medicine.

Universal Health Care just eliminates all the insurance leeches (the skimmers) who produce...nothing. (opportunists should not be defined as capitalists either) And the single payer(administrator) could (but probably won't I admit) be other than Government.

Socialized medicine is what the VA has: hospitals owned by the government and doctors hired by and employed by the government. That is not what we will have.

I am all for capitalism. (small c) I am not for International Corporatism... There is a growing difference...and if you are unaware of what is happening and who is taking over our government you should look again. (just follow the money...who is paying our politicians? who is profiting?) Our Pharmacies (BIG PACS that wrote the 2003 NEOCON Medicare rules) are INTERNATIONAL CORPS. (International OIL Companies helped write our Energy POLICY for pete's sake..which is why the VP won't release the records) And Our Corporate Media is/are almost all in that same international category now. PEACE is now WAR dont' you know?

Things to ponder:

Currently the infant mortality rate in the US is way below other westernized countries and closer to what we term third world countries. Is this what we want? Is the better?

Currently the longevity in the US is less than that found in other westernized countries. Is this what we want? If this is better, it is a weird definition of better.

My aging sister in the UK cannot afford to return to the US because of the cost of health care here. By the way, because she pays a little out of pocket she gets top notch care over there...but still couldn't afford the cost of health care here.

I meet people everyday... with jobs, but without health insurance, who are just holding their breath and praying they don't get sick. I know one who died of breast cancer because she couldn't afford treatment.

I also know people who have been denied care by their insurance companies.

Let's start talking the WE instead of the ME like MM says and do the best for the most.

In the final anaylysis: Nothing will change for the upper eschalons: them who can pay will still pay for top notch care...and get it.

But everyone else will be at least above the water level. They currently are below it.

glub glub as I go down for the third time
 

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Posted by RoadRunner (Member # 380) on :
 
CA quest


Great post

Thanks

RR
 

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Posted by lymedad (Member # 8074) on :
 
CA quest,

I've just got to take exception to several of your points:

quote:

---

1. Universal Health Care is not Socialized Medicine

---

quote:

---

And the single payer(administrator) could (but probably won't I admit) be other than Government.

---

quote:

---

Currently the infant mortality rate in the US is way below other westernized countries and closer to what we term third world countries.

---

Just not true. From our stellar Center for Disease Control (in and of itself reason not to want government run healthcare), comes the following statistics:

(The infant mortality rate (IMR) is the reported number of infants dying under a year of age, per one thousand live births)

173 Cyprus 6.89
174 Northern Mariana Islands 6.85
175 Israel 6.75
176 Guam 6.68
177 Lithuania 6.68
178 Belarus 6.63
179 Croatia 6.60
180 United States 6.37
181 Korea, South 6.05
182 Cuba 6.04
183 Faroe Islands 6.01
184 Isle of Man 5.72
185 Italy 5.72
186 New Zealand 5.67
187 Taiwan 5.54
188 San Marino 5.53
189 Greece 5.34
190 Monaco 5.27
191 Ireland 5.22

Please note the following map provided by the CDC:



Notice that most of the Socialized Healthcare countries are categorized by the CDC as being in the same range in infant mortality as the U.S.

My biggest problem with your input is; how does infant mortality relate to who provides health care in any form.

Infant mortality would seem to be more adversely affected by individual living conditions, health of the mother etc rather than whether the baby is being treated by a private doctor or a government controlled doctor.

I also have a map of life expectancy provided by the CDC and again we rank in the same category as most of the "Universal Healthcare" countries.



But again, I just don't see the analogy between longevity and who is providing healthcare. Longevity has got to be more adversely affected by life-style, diet, environment, and heredity.

I'm plagiarizing now, but I love the thought process:

quote:

---

Logic cannot support the premise that health care is a right. Health care is a service that is administered by another human being with the requisite skills and knowledge. To claim that healthcare as a "right" is to claim a right to the services of the health-care provider. In effect, this means you are claiming a "right" to a portion of that person's life - both a portion of the time already spent developing his skills, and a portion of the time spent practicing those skills on you.

---

quote:

---

I drove to the local multiplex the other night to see Michael Moore's latest movie. My wife came along, but she wisely choose to see the latest Harry Potter flick instead. I envied her.

---

quote:

---

perhaps you should actually see the film yourself and draw your OWN conclusions. hmmm?

---

Boomerang wrote a very well thought out post with what seems to be logical conclusions. It appears you didn't even give him/her the respect of at least reading what they have to say.

Then you miss LabRat's meanings in his comments completely.

It's called sarcasm. Socialized Medicine - all equal treatment, Communism - treatment first to those most valued in the collective. Get it - SARCASM. (You know it's just not the same if you gotta explain it).

Take a lesson from a fellow New Yorker - Mo. She and I don't agree on much politically, but we at least give each other the respect of listening to one another. It's called communications. Try it some time.

I'm having distinct flashbacks to the mid-1960s; have all the hippies died in San Francisco and been reincarnated in New York City? (No offense intended Mo, or maybe it's a complement, huh?)
 

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Posted by RoadRunner (Member # 380) on :
 
Mary J

great post


It sounds like some people on this topic aren't very giving.


RR
 

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Posted by lymedad (Member # 8074) on :
 
Mo,

Now you've done it, you planted that mind-picture in my brain of Michael Moore pulling down George Bush's pants.

That will stick with me now for the rest of the night.
 

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Posted by RoadRunner (Member # 380) on :
 
Bush he's doing a great job.... his poll rating is like 34 percent.
I guess you believe in Santa too.

RR
 

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Posted by lymedad (Member # 8074) on :
 
I'm trying to work on a new website and I can't get this Michael Moore thread out of my head.

I keep coming back to the thought, what in world does Michael Moore, Socialized Medicine or any of this thread have to do with Lyme Disease??

I know, it's "Off Topic", but the reality is that regardless of which medical system we have, it's not going to help those with Lyme.

We can argue the pros and cons of our health system versus the Western European model or the Canadian model or the Australian model until the cows come home (country-boy expression: you see Mo the cows won't come home until it's real late, if you don't train 'em proper).

The facts seem to me to be: unless we provide some financial incentive for someone to find a cure for this disease, we're not solving our collective problem - TBD. It also seems to me we're going to have to find a Rock Hudson or someone like him to do what he did for AIDS awareness and research.

We're also going to have to find that genius research doctor(s) who all look forward to making millions of dollars when he/they find a cure for Lyme, etc.

I just can't see that happening in a medical system where a centralized agency - federal government, state appointed bureaucratic system, or our current government influenced private health insurance industry - controls that research incentive.

So far our medical system, for the most part, doesn't recognize Chronic Lyme as a real disease. We're not getting any real medical benefit from our health insurance companies or our major medical organizations.

When we do get help it's in the form of symptom treatment not curative treatment.

From what I've read, specifically on this website, most of the western European doctors have even less of a clue than ours do.

The only success that I've witnessed personally is with a true fee-for-service medical treatment.

I pay my daughter's doctor out-of-pocket.

He provides excellent care and he is not beholding to either the central government of Socialized Medicine or the health insurance companies. He is purely motivated by my daughter's care.

Maybe that's the answer, we all go back to a true barter system. The doctor comes to your house, treats you, you give him a chicken. If he happens to cut off the wrong leg, you don't sue him for four chickens, you just don't call that same doctor next time.

So far, I've read, in this thread, that Michael Moore has all the answers to all of our health care needs yet I haven't heard anyone tell us what he's going to do about healing my daughter.

Okay now I can go back to work - I've got to earn the money to buy chickens for my daughter's doctor appointment next week.
 

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Posted by lymedad (Member # 8074) on :
 
Roadrunner,

Was that directed at me??

Of course I believe in Santa Claus - do you know something I don't????

Be careful now, you'll hurt my feelings (Nah, probably not).
 

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Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
 
lymedad,

perhaps YOU should do a better job of reading before you jump down my throat. please scroll back up to boomerang's post. the review he posted was, and i quote, 'NOT [HIS] REVIEW.' the words you quoted were someone else's, NOT boomerang's. so, since he didn't post his own review of the movie, i extrapolated that he hasn't yet seen the film himself. make sense? okay, moving on..

i respect you as a person and someone who obviously cares a great deal about his sick daughter. that is admirable and wonderful and many of your posts about your daughter have deeply touched my heart. however, maybe you should give some thought to the fact that you are lucky to be able to help your daughter at all - many people do not have the money, no matter how hard they've worked in their lives, to afford even one visit to an LLMD.

and, you can call me all the names you want, but what i believe is not 'socialist rhetoric' - in fact i don't consider myself a socialist, though my politics are indeed partially informed by socialist ideals. i think Marx and others of his ilk had some really amazing ideas and some solid theories about how society works (and perhaps you should read 'Capital' - both volumes - before you knock him), but i don't subscribe completely to all his ideas, or any other thinker/theorist for that matter. my politics are a complex & evolving amalgamation influenced by Marx, Murray Bookchin, bell hooks, Angela Davis, Sekou Sundiata (my incredible college poetry professor & mentor who just passed away last week), Howard Zinn, Emma Goldman, Audre Lorde, and many, many others (in fact, there is no way i could possibly list them all), as well as my day-to-day experience as a young lesbian woman with a chronic illness trying to survive and navigate this often difficult world.

as a straight, middle-income, able-bodied, white (i'm assuming; please correct me if i'm wrong) military man, i don't think you know what it's like to live in this world as someone who is often the target of discrimination and hatred. maybe you should consider opening your heart and listening to people who DO know that experience, who live it every single day of their lives.

[ 24. July 2007, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: heiwalove ]
 

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Posted by lymedad (Member # 8074) on :
 
heiwalove,

Two points;

1. I stand corrected re: Boomerang's post. As you pointed out, it appears as though he is quoting another source.

2. I have not nor do I ever call anyone derogatory names. If you are referring to my comment concerning your "socialist rhetoric" as my calling you a name, then you're not quite thick-skinned enough to be debating these issues.

You are absolutely correct, I am a 60 year old, caucasian male American of Irish/English/French ancestory. I make no apologies for my heritage.

I do not find myself lucky to be able to afford the money to assist my daughter with her medical care. I do however find myself to be truly blessed to have been born here in the U.S.

It is by that birth-right that I have been afforded the opportunity to earn, through hard work and personal sacrifice, the money to help pay for my daughter's care.

I choose not to discuss my sexuality here or anywhere else because quite frankly, it does not define who I am.

I doubt that you have either the age or maturity to be preaching to anyone about what life is really all about.

Until you've gotten yourself out of abject poverty, lived in 5 different countries, raised your own children, fought in 2 separate wars and survived beyond your 30th birthday, please don't pretend to lecture anyone on life beyond the theoretical.

I'm sure you're a nice person, I'm sure you've struggled with your illness and you think you have all the answers.

I can tell you this one last thing, life cannot be found in books by Marx, Lenin, Gore, or anyone else. You just gotta live it to know it.

Take care of yourself and be well.
 

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Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
 
lymedad,

i just want to say, it is interesting, i think, the differing political views that can be borne out of fighting a war. of course, i will never, ever know what that is like, because i find war to be always unjust no matter what the circumstances - so there is no way on god's green earth that i would ever sign up to fight one.

there are your politics, deeply informed, it seems, by your experience fighting two wars (which, i admit, i cannot even begin to imagine) and a deep sense of patriotism and loyalty to the united states.

then, there's a man named howard zinn, whom i linked to above - here he is again - who took a very different route as a result of his experience in WWII (you can read about that in his wikipedia entry). professor zinn, you might notice, is significantly older than you; and yet, his politics match mine. or rather, i should say, mine match his, as i have learned a great deal from him, both in reading his work and hearing him speak numerous times; plus, yes, he has lived and experienced SO much more than i have.

(there are many other anti-war veterans out there. here are just a few: vietnam veterans against the war, veterans against the iraq war, iraq veterans against the war.)

no, i certainly don't know everything - not even close. i'm learning every moment of every day. my views may very well evolve with age, but really - i think they will become more honed and well-informed, as zinn's most certainly are. i don't see myself suddenly becoming a bush supporter or thinking this country is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

i don't yet know what life is all about, that's absolutely true; but i have almost died from lyme disease, and being that close to death, i think, forces you to realize some things about life that you would otherwise have no clue about. you're right, i have not gotten myself out of abject poverty (my mother did that, raised me herself with no help whatsoever from my father). i do know what it's like, however, to fear for my life because i'm a woman walking alone at night; i know what it's like to be spit on by a complete stranger for being gay, and to be disowned by part of my family for the same reason; i know what it's like to fear for my life because i'm walking with my girlfriend at night and a group of men saunters up to us, calls us 'f***ing dykes,' says a whole bunch of other stuff that's way too awful to repeat on this board, threatens to rape us, and hurls open cans of beer at our heads. these are all things i have experienced in my 27 years of life so far.

it is my belief that the experiences of young people are no less valid than the experiences of those who are older. in fact, in my years working with children and teenagers, i'm quite sure they have taught me far more than i have taught them.

anyway, i also wish you well, and i send you & your daughter love and healing light.

in peace.

[ 25. July 2007, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: heiwalove ]
 

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Posted by RoadRunner (Member # 380) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by heiwalove:
i do know what it's like, however, to fear for my life because i'm a woman walking alone at night; i know what it's like to be spit on by a complete stranger for being gay, and to be disowned by part of my family for the same reason; i know what it's like to fear for my life because i'm walking with my girlfriend at night and a group of men saunters up to us, calls us 'f***ing dykes,' says a whole bunch of other stuff that's way too awful to repeat on this board, threatens to rape us, and hurls open cans of beer at our heads. these are all things i have experienced in my 27 years of life so far.

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This is so wrong that people do this to you. they need to get a life and stop being so hateful.
I wish something could be done about this it is so sad that in the year 2007 people are like this still....


RR
 

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Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
 

 

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Posted by lymedad (Member # 8074) on :
 
Now Mo, here we were having a quiet non-emotional discussion about the merits of Michael Moore's latest documentary venture and you go and turn it into a political statement.

Now what can I do but you report you to the board police. Besides, I doubt seriously that GWB really has that nice of looking legs. They actually look more like John Edward's legs.

Hope you and your family are doing well.

Look forward to hearing more from you as '08 approaches.
 

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Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
 
hey heiwa,

..read this quote and thought of you:

``For an impenetrable shield, stand inside yourself''

~ Henry David Thoreau
 

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Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
 
hey, now, daddy-o,

you're the one who admitted marked disturbance at the mere thought of GWB's exposed hiney. i'm here to tell you that i share your pain.

speaking of which, here's another image to keep you awake at night:


 

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Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
 
oh, and be careful, labraticus,

..on the chance you may be saucing it up;
images may seem more attractive than they appear..

mo
 

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Posted by LabRat (Member # 78) on :
 
I wasn't looking, Iwasn't looking, I wasn't looking.....well, I might have glanced, but quickly turned to save me sight....and me breckfust....
 

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Posted by HaplyCarlessdave (Member # 413) on :
 
I have no doubt that the film "Sicko" is rather heart- wrenching. I plan to see it, but may not be able to for awhile...I did manage to get "Farenheit 911"- that one was indeed a pretty powerful heart-wrenching eye-opener, even for one whose eyes didn't seem totally sqezzed shut before watching it.. ...
DaveS
 

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Posted by HaplyCarlessdave (Member # 413) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by lymedad:
Now Mo, here we were having a quiet non-emotional discussion about the merits of Michael Moore's latest documentary venture and you go and turn it into a political statement.

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