I am an American as well, but living happily in Canada for the past 40 years.
Congratulations on a great new beginning....I think Obama and his healing, inclusive, motivational leadership will be such a great thing for the spirit of America.
Way to go!
Posted by NMN (Member # 11007) on :
Yes...I agree..I was delighted to hear about the victory when I got up this morning. It is a coming of age for the US.
We were sick to death of watching and listening to that plonker Bush all these years.
Bravo!!!! Posted by bettyg (Member # 6147) on :
thank you so much!!! WE'RE READY FOR CHANGES!
OUTSTANDING BACK TO BACK GOOD NEWS! i just came home from celebrating with local democratic hq staff/volunteers and hearing obama's acceptance speech.
i congratulated every american block person there ... to witness this in my lifetime at age 59 and having been thru the 60s where so many were assassinated !!
Posted by mynewname (Member # 11950) on :
Be careful when asking for change if you don't know the type of change you are going to get. Well, you did, you just ignored the message.
For one thing it's inappropriate to discuss politics on this board, but now that pandora's box is open and you have elected a Socialist who hangs out with the people he does, good luck with that.
Don't get sick with universal health care on the horizon.......oh ****, we already are sick? You think that's going to work in your favor? Think again.
Free advice: Divest from the US market and buy precious commodities like gold and silver cuz hyperinflation is right around the corner kids. Mark my words, where is the money going to come from, not the rich. It's gone. So you're looking at printing more and more and more and more money. Just ask your average Zimbabwean how that's working out for them.
Tonight you voted in the wrong kind of change and sealed your fate. SSA - Socialist States of America. Unemployment to hit 15% at least, world recession due to guess what? Anyone know the truth about Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac?
So go out and celebrate with the terrorists I guess cuz they got their man too and the net effect is not good. Done.
Posted by METALLlC BLUE (Member # 6628) on :
Glad to see my vote counted.
Posted by Rianna (Member # 11038) on :
What wonderful news, CONGRATULATIONS USA
Posted by groovy2 (Member # 6304) on :
YEA --Back Flip- Hand Stand -and a Toast- I am HAPPY -- YEA-- --Jay--
Posted by Gabrielle (Member # 5329) on :
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
-
Thank you for your note - all of you from around the Globe - who share in the hope of everyone coming together for a better world.
-
Posted by Robin123 (Member # 9197) on :
A very exciting outcome - I think he can bring people together to accomplish what needs to be done. Thank you, folks here and around the world for your appreciative comments!
At some point later on, we could follow up with the fact that he was a co-sponsor of the Lyme bill...
Posted by swedish lyme sufferer (Member # 14579) on :
I hope this man will start doing something about climate change! It is about time. It really is.
Our tick borne diseases are, I think, going endemic because of the climate change. It is nature's revenge on us.
We all have to start respecting the world.
In the US as well as in Europe we must stop the co2 pollution. We really have to cut down on oil consumtion. It is critical.
I hope Obama is the man who can do it.
Posted by Angelica (Member # 15601) on :
I am happy and so thrilled I can't go to sleep yet!!!!!
My only wish is Obama's grandmother had lived until the votes were all counted. I really feel tonight is an historic night.
My yoga teacher "MC YOGI" performed at the convention by Obama's invitation and I am so proud of him and the Obama video he made for youtube.
A BRIGHTER DAY WILL COME!
[ 05. November 2008, 06:18 AM: Message edited by: Angelica ]
Posted by disturbedme (Member # 12346) on :
I'm very happy about this!
And I'm sick of all those idiots out there saying he's a terrorist (you just bought into what McCain tried planting in our heads)... Makes me EXTREMELY angry, but of course I'm not going to get into it on this board.
Posted by Tracy9 (Member # 7521) on :
I am so excited I could only sleep 3 hours last night! His acceptance speech was moving beyond words, though clearly he is devastated at the loss of his grandmother. My heart broke for him, he really looked sad at what should have been the happiest moment of his life.
It was so cool to see Oprah Winfrey and Jesse Jackson in the crowd with no special star treatment, just crammed in there like everybody else.
That epitomized to me one of the things I love about Obama. No more "good old boys" network.
I am so excited about the next 8 years! I have never seen such an amazing president in my lifetime!
Posted by sutherngrl (Member # 16270) on :
Agree with "mynewname".
Posted by Dawnee (Member # 15089) on :
Agree with MyNewName. Socialism begins. I actually have spoken to people who, as of last night, had NO CLUE that Obama is pro partial birth abortion (stabbing full term infants in the back of the head with scissors as they are being delivered from the womb). My husband even talked to someone yesterday who voted for Obama, but had no clue that he wants to take our guns away and that his pastor and "mentor" of 20 years was a racist who said "God d ___ America". And had never even HEARD of Obama's friend Bill Ayers... the terrorist. But greedy America has her hand out as usual.. gimme gimmie gimmie. And instead of really researching what Obama is about.. they complain and stick music in their ears, entertain themselves on Wii's, play games all day and ignore the fact that they just elected a man who is friends with terrorists, and who's very own GRANDMOTHER insists he was born in Kenya.
But.. thats what happens when the dregs of society are all called together in large numbers to vote.
*edited to say* But the Muslims of the world are all rejoicing... that's gotta tell you something.
Posted by wiserforit (Member # 9732) on :
I am thrilled!
It is a joy to hear people saying that they are proud to be a part of the hope in America -- this election was an historical moment when divisive tensions are starting to become unstuck. There is global rejoicing going on too!
Also, alot of federal programs are already modeled on socialist ideas, but it doesn't mean that hard core socialism is around the corner.
The mess we are in has already been put in motion. I am happy to have a thinker entering office. Obama is someone who will meet with people from all sides of the equation, not disassociate out of a fearful cowboy diplomacy mindset. There is wisdom in the words "keep your friends close and your enemies closer..." -- in other words, keep your finger on the pulse at all times.
There is a global shift that has been happening no matter who we have in office. A kind of purging or painful leveling of the playing field is happening globally. It's great to have a clear-headed, open-minded guy ready to step into the fray to help sort things out!
I fully expect a "national herx" in order for things to start circulating in a more productive direction. And, yes, I also think the price of gold is to be followed closely as a reflection of a new world financial paradigm shift -- painful as it may be.
God bless Every Man and Obama and the USA!
Cheers,
wiserforit
Posted by Vermont_Lymie (Member # 9780) on :
I was moved to tears while voting yesterday, to have the opportunity to vote for a person who seems so intelligent, capable, empathetic, and ethical and responsible --
a family man whose values are in the right place and who ran the most stunningly effective and positive campaign that I had seen in my lifetime.
I am thrilled that Obama will be president, and the hardest most challenging work in the world is ahead of him and those who will govern. Leadership matters, and we are fortunate to have him as president.
He will need all of our help to deal with the pressing economic problems facing our nation.
Wiser, that is priceless -- we should be ready for the "national herx" to follow! That is when good leadership will really matter!
Posted by DizzyUp (Member # 17378) on :
I agree with mynewname and Dawnee.
America really has no idea what they just elected and I will leave it at that. I think many people voted in ignorance and did not know the facts.
I am extremely depressed this morning and worried about the future of this great country. I believe in our constitution and the freedoms and beliefs it holds. I do not want to see these freedoms that our great forefathers worked and sacrificed for taken away.
I am a conservative, was born and raised that way, and I am disappointed that McCain did not prevail. Bush has made some mistakes and I do not consider him or McCain a true conservative but they both hold more of my beliefs and morals than Obama.
However, we are all Americans and we must work together, no matter who was elected. Our country is in a crisis right now so no matter who you voted for, and no matter if you liked the outcome of this election, we are all Americans and must work together to make things better.
God bless America!
[ 05. November 2008, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: DizzyUp ]
Posted by ldfighter (Member # 9405) on :
quote: *edited to say* But the Muslims of the world are all rejoicing... that's gotta tell you something.
I wasn't going to post on this thread (happy as I am right now) but comments like this just sadden me. I'm not Muslim myself, but Muslims, Christians, Jews and others are all part of humanity. There are many patriotic Americans who are Muslim!
Anyone hear Colin Powell on Meet the Press? He urged us to stop demonizing one another, and told the story of a young Muslim man who gave his life for this country, the kid was from NJ and enlisted after 9/11.
What this has to do with Medical I don't know - except that maybe the medical community also needs to stop demonizing one another and start working together if we're ever going to solve a problem like Lyme.
I love the last thing DizzyUp said and I hope my friends and family members who supported McCain will have the same attitude of moving forward and working together with good intentions.
Posted by SkyLord (Member # 16365) on :
I was deeply saddened by the outcome of the election; however, Obama now has the opportunity to prove myself and everyone who does not agree with his politics wrong.
He's the new President elect. He starts with a clean slate in my book. Likewise McCain would have started with a new slate.
He now has great power, and with that power comes great responsibility. I hope that he uses his time in the Oval office wisely.
Be assured that anything he does that I do not agree with I shall make my voice loud and clear, as should anyone else who does not agree whether you are democrat or republican.
His policies and beliefs in the past in my opinion were horrid and appalling, but I feel as a nation it is our responsibility to at least give him a opportunity to prove us wrong.
Far too many people will begin to hate every plan of action he calls upon simply because they didn't agree with him in the past.
Well..... I despise the decisions he made in the past. I think some of them could damn his soul. But that is now neither here or there.
This is now. This is the time we MUST look to the future and attempt to unite. We are heading into a recession the likes of which have not been seen in over 75 years.
We have far too many jobs outsourced over sea's . We are a nation of consumers rather than producers.
Our GNP is next to nothing. A good percentage of of our GNP statistics are super inflated and no 2 GNP reports are alike because of such inflated optimism.
Our health care is shoddy. I agree it needs reform, but I will never agree with Socialized medicine.
President Elect Obama said in a interview ( which I have a copy of if anyone cares to see it ) that he intends to bankrupt the coal industry and NOT build any more Nuclear Power Plants. If this is the case just wait until the government takes FULL control of energy. Wait until you see your electric bills.
Dawnee,
I too encountered many people who were pro Obama who were shocked and "awed" by his policies. ( I had to put in shock and awe. I couldn't help myself )
I have to also address this notion that we Americans are too stupid to make it on our own. I won't elaborate on that. I just want people to understand the basics of what I just mentioned.
I hope now that President Elect Obama has gained the title of Commander in Chief he will rethink some of his past remarks.
MetallicBlue put in a post the other day something along the lines of "You can usually judge a man based on his beliefs". I hope I quoted you right my friend.
I would like to amend that if I can. It's not a mans beliefs that defines him, rather the morals behind his beliefs.
If someone's belief is not one you subscribe to you have to seek the reason WHY they have said belief. If they hold their beliefs dear because they feel it is their moral obligation to better the lives of many I must respect that. I may disagree, but I will respect that.
Basically I have to say that Mr. Obama has a difficult road ahead of him. I don't envy anyone in Congress, the Senate, or the President Elect.
God bless America,
SkyLord
Posted by Niere (Member # 14387) on :
Please understand that what I am about to say is not meant to dampen anyone's enthusiasm today. But I really just don't understand what this thread is doing here in the Medical Forum.
Some months ago I pm'ed lou about the appropriateness of political discussions on these boards. While he stated that there were no rules disallowing political discusssion, he did state that he hoped that discussions "other than the politics effecting Lyme and the treatment of Lyme and other TBD's" would be occuring in the Off Topic forum.
He also said he would bring this topic up at a Lymenet board of directors meeting. The results of that discussion are unknown to me.
I also recently pm'ed lou again about this topic, because here in the Medical forum I saw people advising others on how to vote. I just do not think this is the place for it. Thus far I have not received a reply. I do not mean this in a negative way at all, I am just trying to frame where I am at at this point. I am sure lou has his hands full with any number of responsibilities and I have no reason to believe that he would not eventually have gotten back to me.
While I understand the enthusiasm of a great many posters here today, it is my personal opinion that this topic does not belong here, that it belongs in another forum. Otherwise, I really don't understand the need for seperate forums.
I belong to a very popular gardening website and political discussion is simply not tolerated. It's not the purpose of the site. If political discussion is what you want to have, there are hundreds of thousands of other places online to do that.
People of all political leanings get lyme. People coming to the Medical forum are coming here for help and suggestions on what to do in regards to treatment. I personally don't want to read about politics of either side in the middle of a thread about someone else's medical issues.
I understand there is a political aspect to lyme, but it makes sense to me that those discussions would occur in the Activism forum.
Perhaps I am missing something, but that just seems like the logical way this would be handled.
Just my two cents, which I respectfully offer and hope will be recieved in the respectful manner in which they are intended.
EDIT: Lou was able to email me to explain that he was unable to respond to my pm because my pm box was full. I wanted to make sure I added that information to this post and to also add that I've cleaned out my pm box a bit.
[ 05. November 2008, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: Niere ]
Posted by MaryMi (Member # 459) on :
mynewname
I agree. Change means nothing unless it is for the good. Hope your advise is taken.
We are losing more of our freedom.
As for the BIG tax break....Corporations that pay more tax will just pass it on to the consumer. We still lose.
Posted by JKM03 (Member # 17788) on :
I Agree with DIzzyUp, Well said.
The morals that Obama supports and represents are not those that our founding fathers intended. Are we really still "one nation under God" when horrendous acts, such as infanticide are tolerated?
It's a mute point now. Either way, he is our president, we will have to make the best of this situation. Perhaps he will surprise us, or somehow turn our economic situation around...
[ 06. November 2008, 04:33 AM: Message edited by: JKM03 ]
Posted by SkyLord (Member # 16365) on :
This post isn't about politics as much as it is about freedom, equality, and unity.
There is no way this thread should be removed. If the powers that be see fit to "move" this thread to a different forum I can understand that.
We are a community. Strike that. We are a FAMILY here on the board and this topic impacts the entire family.
A post should be removed if it is offensive in nature, not because of beliefs.
Posted by Niere (Member # 14387) on :
Skylord--I am not suggesting that the post be removed.
I am saying that I don't know what it is doing in this forum. Otherwise, I don't know why we have different forums.
???
Posted by adamm (Member # 11910) on :
They were two sides of the same coin, the way I see it.
I don't expect that over the next 4 years they'll stop spraying
chemtrails, stop starting bogus wars, take the fluoride out of the
water, improve vaccination,
or admit that the disease we're suffering from actually exists.
Posted by dmc (Member # 5102) on :
It is the opinion of some LymeNet Flash users that there are too many non-medical posts in Medical Questions Forum.
I have reviewed, finding there are some non-medical Topics being posted, moved those Topics to the appropriate Forum and notified the users. I did not find this to be a pervasive problem but there are a number of occurrences.
I'm asking all LymeNet Flash users to author Topics in the appropriate Forum.
Thanks,
--------------------
Posted by sometimesdilly (Member # 9982) on :
as happy as i am that Obama won, i don't believe for a minute that Obama the man was the most important winner last night.
our democracy won, and won in a landslide.
more people voted yesterday than in any other election in 90 years.
young people voted in huge numbers. tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of folks who had lost belief that their votes counted, cast ballots again after years and years of sitting out elections.
fellow americans who can trace their ancestry back to slavery saw the first african-american elected as president.
fellow americans who can trace their ancestry back to other americans who held the whips and then the firehoses joined every other democratic group in the nation to vote in our first african-american president.
this is an awesome country.
d
Posted by lymielauren28 (Member # 13742) on :
This post should stay right where it is IMO. There's always something off topic in Medical because this is where the majority of posters spend their time. The topic of the thread should let you know that it's not medically related - if it doesn't interest you then scroll on by.
Personally, I have mixed feelings all the way around about Obama's victory. I do think we need a change, I just don't think he's the change we need. I don't share the same morals as Obama and like Sky, while I do think we need a whole new healthcare system, I don't believe socialized healthcare is the answer. Obama's inexperience is frightening and most don't know where he stands on anything - only that he stands for change.
On the flip side, while I have great respect and admiration for McCain, I think most of the political policies he stands for are old and outdated and had he been voted into office we would've had "more of the same". We may as well have kept Bush in the whitehouse for another term or two.
So to me, it seems we got the lesser of two evils. At the least it'll be very interesting to see how the next four years play out and if Obama's actions can be as wonderful as his word.
Lauren
Posted by sometimesdilly (Member # 9982) on :
letting go of hate and fear, especially when confronted by genuine change, can be difficult.
let the sun shine....
Posted by kam (Member # 3410) on :
As far as lyme disease goes, I think now is the time to contact our congress again.
We have new people now in some states.
And I think it is the congress that will help get the bill passed.
Pres Bush had lyme and it is still something that is brushed under the rug. (sorry, couldn't think of any other way to put it right now)
Posted by MartinJS (Member # 15473) on :
Amen Sometimesdilly--and am also glad to see this topic moved to the "Off Topic" forum!!
Posted by Lou B (Member # 64) on :
Hi LymeNet Users,
LymeNet has no rules prohibiting political discussions however it is generally understood that these discussions should be posted in the Off Topic forum.
This was discussed, according to my notes, at the Board of Directors meeting held 8/30/2008. BTW - I discussed this again with our President, Bill Stolow, early this afternoon. Both his and my opinion is that political discussions are not a major issue on LymeNet. Of course, during an election that got as much media attention as the 2008 election, there will be some discussion leading up to and just following the election ... then it ends.
As far as the political posts being placed in Medical, there is no way technically to prevent a user from starting a Topic in any forum they choose ... all we can do is to move the Topic after the fact when we notice it or a user notifies one of the Moderators. This is what happened today ... a user sent me a PM about the "Congratulations USA" Topic which I moved to Off Topic when I arrived home shortly after noon.
Lou said, LymeNet has no rules prohibiting political discussions however it is generally understood that these discussions should be posted in the Off Topic forum.
Really?? So many of us were told it was the other way around......
Posted by Lou B (Member # 64) on :
Meg,
Really? Told by who?
Please define "the other way around" ... like posted where?
Thanks and take care,
Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
for the first time in my life i am proud to be an american. we made history yesterday. i can't help but think of MLK's 'i have a dream' speech; 45 years later and change is finally palpable.
however, i am saddened that the same state that voted overwhelmingly democrat (CA) also decided to write bigotry into their constitution.
it is a bittersweet outcome, but i cried tears of joy yesterday, despite the fact that i have never been a fervent obama supporter/follower. it feels good to make history. and i have faith he is an intelligent, kind, open-minded, fair person; a far cry from the last eight (very long) years.
Posted by sometimesdilly (Member # 9982) on :
Heiwa-
Voters in CA struck a very ugly note in an otherwise joyous election.
with luck and lots of work, the next years will return us to sanity and civility, and the kind of intolerance CA wrote into law will be seen for what it is.. and rejected.
we are far further down that path than we were even a few days ago.
from looking at exit polls, election returns, and the mindset of the very politically aware and tolerant younger generations of voters, i really believe a page has been turned, permanently.
i think that page-turning is clear to all, and in my mind accounts for the raw fear and hate that poured forth by a minority as the election ended.
as President(elect)Obama says, change never comes easy.
hugs-- dilly
Posted by islandgirl (Member # 5914) on :
Well said, Dilly!
Didn't realize my very quick congrats would be so controversial, especially on lymenet. Oh well.
It was so exciting to see young people turning out in such force, and with such high hopes, after so many years of silence and apathy. It is so good to dream, and to think your ideals have a chance.
I pray that this is a new beginning, and that people will give their President elect and the nation a chance to heal.
Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
skylord -- why the election of obama IS so much about race:
i don't expect mccain supporters to agree with this particular blogger. but i think she's brilliant, and well worth the read.
one of the many reasons this election's outcome brought me to tears is the fact that we elected a black man to the executive office. it is unprecedented, incredible, historical.. and about freaking time.
Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
i haven't been up on much news over the past couple of years, too much family trauma.
but, seeing what's happened has renewed my faith in this country, our potential ability to work again with other good nations who have been very openly and intensely concerned about the U.S. and it's global impact over the past 8 years... also thrilled to see we can actually have a fair election -- so long as it's a landslide, anyway.
just so deeply moved. i watched the speech and the world's reaction, and just cried and cried.
it's a new day. it will take a long time to heal the country and the world from america's unilateral rule..
but it's a new day, better than the old day. one day at a time.
imo, the biggest problem has been the divide.
obama plans to appoint many republicans in his administration, i hope he does, and i hope they accept. it makes sence he would win the election by being in stark contrast with bush ideals, as there has been such an overwhelming backlash against bush/republican politics, but it is predicted that he plans to move toward the middle while in office.
there are indeed many conservatives out there who know working together is essential. the same were clearly not happy with bush, cheney, mccain, or palin in leadership roles. (also made apparent by the voting map) mccain never clearly differentiated himself from the bush administration on most policies.
there are good and bad on both "sides". i will also say the government as a whole has to earn my respect, no matter who "won".
however, what i saw of the hate campaigning against obama, repeated emphasis on a middle name, calling him a terrorist - rather than speaking to issues -- is something that many realize must stop if we're gonna get anywhere.
i'm sure rush and bill o' will attempt to keep the hatred going for whatever viewers still buy into it, but i really have to believe that most americans are tired of this kind of approach to politics. we have so many very serious problems going on in our country right now, not to mention abroad, to engage in smoke and mirror politics and hate campaigns against others.
i thought all of that over the years was the biggest shame of all.
so, that's the greatest potential i see, that the division that was fed by previous administrations and media spin will finally heal, and common goals that benefit all of us are possible to achieve. will it happen? i dunno.
but i feel it's been impossible before, and definitely possible now.
i am expecting proof in the pudding, not just to anticipate it -- hoping the obama administration and congress succeed in moving us forward.
i must say i am feeling pride in calling myself an american.
as always, just m.o. (mo!)
oh, as we depart from the past 8 years, y'all know i just gotta do a little dance.
m
[ 07. November 2008, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: Mo ]
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
i was also under the impression that political discussion was not allowed.
this has changed apparently.....
frankly, i'm tired of hearing politics.....
just another same ole same ole....wait six months and see.....
i've never seen such biased media and vitrolic hatred spewed in this election....
Posted by Angelica (Member # 15601) on :
I have renewed faith in my country too. I am happy that the voting machines did seem to be working correctly for this election unlike some where they did not match the exit polls.
It will be interesting to see what happens when Obama takes office. I am ready for change and have been for a long time. So far he seems to be an excellent speaker and that is a welcome change. I think many of his ideas are good. I feel he does want to see the USA improve and move forward.
I have renewed hope and it feels good to feel hopeful.
Posted by MaryMi (Member # 459) on :
An email from a friend....
> Judging from Bush's disapproval rating, I would say > that many conservatives > are also disappointed in his performance. I am not > defending his record. I > agree with you that the budget deficits are a serious > problem and that > printing money will result in inflation, devaluation of our > currency, > increased prices on imports, and will hurt the poor, middle > class, and those > on fixed incomes. > > But I don't know where you get your statement that our > tax system is > regressive. The Congressional Budget Office figures show > that the bottom 20% > of households pay -6.5% in federal income taxes. Yes the > number is negative > - they get money back from the government by means of the > earned income > credit. This is a transfer payment - i.e., redistribution > of wealth (2005 > numbers: > http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/88xx/doc8885/12-11-HistoricalTaxRates.pdf). > The > EIC was instituted in 1975 under Ford and greatly expanded > under Reagan in > 1986. > > The top 1% of households pays 31.4% of their income in > federal taxes. Then > on top of this there are state income taxes (4% in my > state), real estate > tax, sales tax, etc. > > This same CBO document shows that in 2005 the bottom 40% of > households paid > 4.9% of all federal taxes. The bottom 60% of households > paid only 14.2% of > all federal taxes. The top 1% of households (with an > average household > income of $1.56 million) paid 27.6% of all federal taxes. > The top 10% of > households (with an average household income of $339,100) > paid 54.7% of all > federal taxes. > > If you are talking about Social Security, yes in some sense > that is > regressive since the taxable income is capped. However one > could argue that > this isn't a tax, but is an insurance program, albeit > an involuntary one. > The benefits paid out are presumably commensurate with the > premiums paid. So > unless the benefits will be scaled to the paid in amount, > without limit, > then it does not seem fair to limit the amounts paid in, > but not the amount > on which your are assessed. > > When Obama/Biden say let's tax the selfish rich (those > earning more than > $250,000 or is it $150,000?) to spread the wealth to the > less fortunate, it > seems like an incitement to class warfare and mob rule. How > is it fair or > moral for 95% of the people to gang up on 5% of the people > and extort money > from them? Where do you draw the line? Is it fair to force > the rich to pay > 40% of their income to the government (actually they > probably already are if > you add all the taxes - i.e., state income tax, local > income tax, real > estate, etc.)? 50%? 90%? > > Actually, from a practical point of view, when the tax > rates are viewed as > fair, the government actually takes in more money - this is > called the > Laffer curve, after economist Arthur Laffer (see > http://www.heritage.org/Research/Taxes/bg1765.cfm, which > has a nice > explanation of this effect). For example, when Kennedy cut > rates in the > mid-1960s or Reagan did in the early 1980s, tax receipts > actually increased. > When this was pointed out to Obama during the Philadelphia > debate by Charlie > Gibson, Obama said that this was irrelevant, his reason for > raising taxes on > the wealthy was that it was only fair to tax the rich! So > he really doesn't > care whether or not it works; his reasoning is ideological. > He wants to > stick it to the rich (see > http://www.americanshareholders.org/2008/04/obama-trashes-t.html). > It's not > about what really will help people, it's all about > power and control. > > Also, while $150,000 may sound quite wealthy to you living > in rural upstate > New York (I lived in Moravia for 5 years, where I lived > quite comfortably on > a graduate research fellowship of about $10,000 a year), in > other parts of > the country (e.g., California, New York metropolitan area), > the cost of > living is much much higher. A small two bedroom house in > our area costs > $600,000+ and in California it is perhaps twice that! The > tax code does not > correct for these cost of living disparities. Consider: > $150,000 after > state, local and federal taxes may be reduced to $90,000. > Interest and > principle on a $540,000 mortgage (7%, 20 year) would be > $50,000+ and real > estate tax of $10,000, leaves about $30,000 for food, > clothing, gas, college > expenses, etc. If you are a Christian and tithe, that's > another $15,000, > leaving only $15,000 for food, clothing, etc. Doesn't > look so wealthy now, > does it? OK, there's probably a correction since at the > moment interest and > real estate tax are deductible on the federal income tax, > but I hope you > understand my point. You can't simply throw out a > number and say people > earning more than that are living in immoral opulence and > must be punished > by the tax code. > > My argument in the original statement below is that there > is a fundamental > difference in philosophy between true conservatives (and > libertarians) and > liberals. True conservatives believe that the one who earns > the income > should have some say in how it is distributed. For example, > I would like to > be able to support organizations like World Vision that I > know are doing > excellent work in relieving poverty throughout the world, > rather than give > my hard earned money to the government to distribute to > some dictator who > will use the money to control and enslave his country's > people. Or consider > the government funding of Planned Parenthood: In FY2007, > the Federal > government gave $336.7 million of our tax money to them. Or > ACORN or > hundreds (or thousands!) of other groups with their hands > out - I would much > rather decide to whom I give the money I have earned > through God's grace. > > Liberals on the other hand believe that the government > should decide how to > spend your money. Proof positive of this can be found by > looking at the > charitable giving of Obama and Biden vs. McCain. From 2000 > through 2004, > Obama gave roughly 1% of his income to charity; this when > he was making > about $250,000, what he considers rich! (see > http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2008/03/obama-releases.html) > From > 1998 through 2006, Joe Biden gave less than 0.2% of his > income to charity! > In contrast the "evil" Dick Cheney gave away a > "measly" 78 percent of their > income, or $6.9 million! (see > http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZmMxMDk1MDNlMjI2NTQwYmE5NjEwZTJkZTM2YjR > iNzI=) In 2007, John McCain contributed 26% of his income > to charitable > causes > (http://philanthropy.com/news/philanthropytoday/4438/from-the-chronicle-mcca > ins-charitable-giving). > > I don't think that Jesus said that the government > should take care of the > poor - he said that you and I should do it. He did say that > we should pay > taxes that are rightly owed to the government and I believe > that there is > certainly a legitimate role for government, for example in > providing > infrastructure (e.g., roads, bridges), military protection, > and some basic > level of regulation. But for social programs, I think the > top-down approach > often does more harm than good. There's a great book by > Marvin Olasky > entitled "Compassionate Conservatism" (he used > the term before it was > co-opted) in which he shows that small, local, relational > compassion > ministries can be much more effective at dealing with > systemic poverty than > large top-down government programs, which take away > people's dignity and > lead to a destruction of the social fabric of communities. > Just look at what > the Great Society and other government social programs have > done to the > Black community in the inner cities. By dehumanizing people > and removing the > dignity and self-respect that comes from working, is it any > wonder that > crime, drugs, etc. are the result? > > But make no mistake, I am no fan of John McCain. I think he > is not much > better than Obama - both will take us down the wrong road > for this country, > but he will do it more slowly... >
Posted by sometimesdilly (Member # 9982) on :
MariMi-
The election we just had was in large part a resounding repudiation of the class warfare that has been relentlessly waged against middle-class Americans for the past 8 years.
It is difficult to find many folks of any political persuasion who disagree that most of us are very much poorer for that warfare, both literally and figuratively.
Leaving that aside, though, your point that President Obama is driven by ideology is, as a point of fact, just plain wrong.
Those on the "right" will keep on howling that about him for a myriad of reasons; the fact that he isn't will drive those on the "left" nuts soon enough, no doubt before he even unpacks his bags at the White House.
With rare exceptions (and for better or for worse), the heart of America's democracy is to be found in the center of our political spectrum.
Obama is as Center as it gets.
PS- the figure you refer to is $250,000, not $150,000, and the rate of taxation Obama proposes for the upper brackets barely begins to restore the level of taxation that existed back in the 50's and 60's, the most prosperous decades in American history.
dill
Posted by sometimesdilly (Member # 9982) on :
Sky-
believe it or not, i actually agree with at least some of what you wrote in your last post.
Where I jump off is that we no longer have a manufacturing economy and won't again; that's a large part of the seismic economic upheaval that has been unfolding globally over the past 2 decades.
We've been smacked awakened from the on-steroids consumer-based economy that ran on dream fumes for the past years.
That economy too will not return in any recognizable form for decades. Most consumers are deeply in debt, have lost most or all of whatever retirement security they ever had, and let's not even mention medical expenses many can't afford even with insurance.
We are going to have to find a different engine to fire up a sustainable economy.
And that, my friend, is what Obama is planning to do. His considered foresight on this issue is one of the chief reasons i voted for him (hint...think Green).
dill
Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
also - and this is purely selfish, perhaps - but now is the first time in a LONG time (certainly the first in my lifetime, and i'm 28 years old) that those with politics remotely resembling my own (and dilly's, and mo's, i would venture, but please correct me if i'm wrong) have had any reason to truly celebrate a president-elect.
so let us have our moment! Posted by sometimesdilly (Member # 9982) on :
Heiwa-
we ARE having our moment, girl! and what a sweet moment it is, whatever comes next.
dill pickle
Posted by kam (Member # 3410) on :
For me, this is the first election that I have spent some time watching due to lyme and not working at this time.
It is exciting that it was an historical election.
I watched pieces recently of the President Elect and his family visiting their new home.
It was great to see how President Bush welcomed them. He said he had called Clinton the day before to thank him for being so gracious and wanted to do the same for the new incoming President.
It also was unusual for me to see clips from people all around the world celebrating.
And to watch president elect choose his staff and what staff he has to choose and how they will help.
He is stepping into a public service that I know I certainly would not want to be responsible for.
Wondering how many on this web site are doing some sort of public service.
I know Pat Smith and Phyllis Mervine and Pam and Open Eye Productions and Scott are certainly doing what they can to help those with lyme.
And lymenet and Turn the Corner Foundation and NatCap.
And others with CALDA, Melissa.
I was considering public service before I got sick. Hoping I will be able to get well and get back to work and add public service after I become well.
Nothing in the political arena unless it has to do with lyme disease which it most likely will.
I also heard a guy talk that said we vote every two years on the senators and congressmen and most of us do nothing to get the deadbeats out of congress and the senate.
So, looks like the next 2 years we need to see how our representatives are doing and make a decision.
I know I contacted representatives in the past sense coming down with lyme and usually did not get a response.
Time for me to try again.
Posted by Angelica (Member # 15601) on :
Some representatives will meet with you so that you can ask them for help or voice your concerns.
My representive met with me and agreed to help me with an issue but then turned into a politician and did nothing she promised to but at least I felt I tried.
Posted by liesandmorelies (Member # 15323) on :
YEAH AMERICA!!!!!
Having had time to reflect now for a couple weeks on this tremendous victory for us all, my heart and soul are still rejoicing.
If Obama's campaign is any evidence of his ability to help put this country back on track, than we are all in for a pleasant ride.
Do not get me wrong, it will not happen over night. After all it has taken years to get to this broken point.
My faith has been restored in the Democratic system that we live in. I knew there would be a breaking point that we would reach. And, the people of this country have spoken and have spoken loudly.
Hopefully we can come full circle now and restore ourselves with the best health care, best schools, good roads, clean water, good jobs, good treatment of our veterans etc.....
It strikes me as funny when I read that people will bring up statistics on the poorest 20% and show how they pay negative amounts of tax money.
I find this interesting because when you pay people what amounts to "slave wages" and then throw out that they don't pay their fair share of taxes, I have to scratch my head and ask myself, are they for real????
The people who make these low wages are the same people that service us daily in hard working professions. Waiters, newspaper men, Walmart and Grocery store clerks etc.....
History has shown that when greed overtakes a fundamentaly good system, then it will need to be tweeked by the masses(the middle class) to keep it in check.
Americans are by and large good, hardworking people, but at some point they will not tolerate a system that rewards only the wealthy. That is not what our country was founded on at all.
Our country was founded on oppurtunity yes, but it was not founded on taking advantage of people. Once we got rid of slavery, those days were supposed to be over.
I am not socialist, but I do have a problem when people throw around the term "hard work". I believe a busy business excutive works hard, but so does a garbage man. And, believe me, someone has to pick up the garbage.
It is all how you perceive what "hard work" is.
When you have a society that does not reward "hard work" with fair wages(decent wages that one can truly live on and see some benefits from), wages that can and do keep up with inflation etc....eventually you will have a broken system. This is what we are currently encountering.
In America right now we have a class of people that are getting wealthy(this class is growing) and we have a poor class of people(this class is growing as well). When this happens your middle starts to dwindle away.
We will not remain a great country if we continue to allow our strong base of middle class dwindle away into poverty, while the wealthy get wealthier. If we do, we will become no different than other third world countrys that have no middle class.
Enough about that! I am celebrating that as Americans, more people came out to vote this time around than ever. People came together and many did not vote on single issues. But rather, voted on the big picture.
I don't know if Barak can fix all the problems he has inherited, but he was definitley the best choice IMHO. I love that he has a sense of calm about him and an air of maturity, patience and a true willingness to listen to those who may know more than he does.
Perhaps History will write that Barak was the one that truly united this great country.
Perhaps it will be written that Barak was the one that truly broke down the walls of division and brought us together again.
All I can do is have hope, because lets face it, it has not been a pretty picture of late.
I will celebrate this moment and hope for the best.
I love my country and my fellow Americans and I am once again filled with the hope that this country will be a wonderful place for my children and someday grandchildren to live.
Thank you for starting this thread!
Elizabeth
Posted by HaplyCarlessdave (Member # 413) on :
quote:Originally posted by mynewname: ree advice: Divest from the US market and buy precious commodities like gold and silver cuz hyperinflation is right around the corner kids. Mark my words, where is the money going to come from, not the rich. It's gone. So you're looking at printing more and more and more and more money. Just ask your average Zimbabwean how that's working out for them.
Tonight you voted in the wrong kind of change and sealed your fate. SSA - Socialist States of America. Unemployment to hit 15% at least, world recession due to guess what? Anyone know the truth about Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac?
You are saying this as if all these problems are the fault of the newly elected leaders who aren't even in there yet! Who's at fault for lowering the interest rates (translation: printing money) and bringing on hyperinflation? --hint- It's clear that it sure isn't the "democratic" party, which at this point is actually much closer to the 'republicans' than to the Socialists! And what about unemployment? gee nubya tush and corpany are the ones who were ...'presiding' over the ramming through of ..'globalization'.., aren't they? Yes, we need change. Real change. Maybe if I get lyme again, I'll be able to be treated! That sure won't be the case if things don't change!!
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