posted
Currently I am treating for lyme/bartonella. I tested high for heavy metals (mercury) so need to address that and will be testing for parasites.
If that comes back as an issue do people treat all of this at once or focus on one thing at a time (i.e. take a break from abx or get through lyme/bart treatment first or can abx be combined w/ treatment for heavy metals and/or parasties?
My general approach is to want to address it all, but wonder if it will be overloading my system. I am overwhelmed w/ all I am learning and want to make sure along w/ fighting lyme/bart that I am strengthening my immune system. Any thoughts are appreciated!
Posts: 376 | From New York | Registered: Jan 2011
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chiquita incognita
Unregistered
posted
I can't give any kind of medical advice ,that' s for your doctor to do.
If it was me, I sure as heck wouldn't even try to do all that at once. No way.
Herx's are way too nasty and I think the toxicity would be overwhelming if we try to detox several things at once .Oy!
That's at least my thinking, but you should check with your doctor.
If it was me myself, I would first do this:
A) Check for leaky gut disorder, with an ND because this will make us more vulnerable to toxicity issues. Tighten the gut lining and detoxing will be much safer, is what I would think. (there is no such test in mainstream medicine, this requires an ND and naturopathic lab www.naturopathic.org to find an ND in your area) you can also read the book Leaky Gut Syndrome by Elizabeth Lipski, CCN MS to decide if you think you need to check further into this, or not (because certainly not everybody will have leaky gut, that goes without saying!)
B) Take care of parasites
C) Take care of the liver
D) Take care of heavy metals
E) Take care of the liver, kidneys and colon again after heavy metal detox to tone up detox action in the body
F) Take care of lyme last of all
THis is only me thinking out loud and is not a treatment plan. There could be errors in what I have written above and it's your doctor who should come up wiht the treatment plan.
Again I am only thinking out loud, and would want to check this with my own doctor too. And I am emphatically asking you to do the same. I am not a doctor.
posted
CI--could you be my Dr or accompany me to appts?! ! You are knowledgeable. Thank you for all your amazing feedback!!
I have been treating lyme since Jan 1. I wish I had know a thing about heavy metal toxicity, parasites, etc so I could have changed the order around!
I am going to see if I can get a joint appt w/ the nautropath in the office (haven't met w/ him before but hear he is great).
You have helped me organize this info in a way that I can now meet w/ my LLNP and the natuorpath to come up w/ a plan.
If you were in my shoes would you continue w/ lyme treatment or stop and address the other things first?
I have been lucky that I really haven't had any bad herxes. I had some confusion for a couple of days when I took diflucan and my stomach has been bothering me lately. I have never been on 3 antibiotics at once so I wonder if it is starting to take a toll. I do think I have some candida issues. I guess once I get all my blood work back that will be a place to start.
Thank you SO much. I had been debating whether I should get the ND involved and now I feel more confident of needing a team approach.
Posts: 376 | From New York | Registered: Jan 2011
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posted
AnnaOD20, I absolutely agree with Chiquita about checking for leaky gut and
/or any other digestive/elimination problems you might have
BEFORE embarking on any detox program....I have just found that
out the hard way and I am really messed up now as a result...make
sure your liver , kidneys , colon , and stomach etc are all in good
working order so they can handle the toxin load and eliminate
them sufficiently from your body...perhaps start by taking herbal
products to boost these organs to ensure they are strong and
healthy would be a first step...like Chiquita said...I am not a
doctor...just sharing my 2 cents worth from my experience...
always run everything by your LL doc first... eliminating heavy
metals , parasites and yeast and lyme all at once would be a
huge burden for your body to handle all at once even if you are
as strong as an ox...I agree with Chiquita..tackle one at a time...
-------------------- "Gratitude is not only the greatest of virtues , but the parent of all others "....Cicero Posts: 254 | From new jersey | Registered: Jul 2009
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posted
I think that most people with Lyme have leaky gut (and parasites) due to the terrain issues, HCL suppression that Lyme causes. Yet, I see many lyme sufferers on this forum who talk about eating coconut oil every day, lemons every day, and many foods that they like which are not harmful.
But if one has a leaky gut, one must not repeat the consumption of any food within 4 days. In other words, eat coconut oil today, wait four days, then it can be eaten again. If one doesn't wait the four days like this, a food allergy will be developed to that food. It's an autoimmune response caused by the leaky gut.
The symptoms of the food allergy are often not distinguishable as such. They merely add to the severity of the Lyme and coinfection symptoms already being experienced.
I've mentioned this on this forum a few times, but it never seems to get any traction. I think people choose to disbelieve because they don't want to have to go through such a tedious food consumption cycling plan. Nor are they inclined to want to spend $800 for a blood test to find out the foods to which they're already allergic.
I'll keep puttin' it out there. You can lead a horse to water.....
-------------------- -chaps �Listen to the bell, Borrelia. It tolls for thee!� Posts: 631 | From A little place called, "we'll see." | Registered: Apr 2010
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chiquita incognita
Unregistered
posted
Chaps, you are right.
I woke up thinking this morning that the more I am reading on this forum, the more it seems that Lyme makes people highly allergic to things in ways that most people aren't.
A rotation diet is important where allergies or hypersensitivities exist.
Keep bringing this forward!
Anna, thanks for the compliment but no way! I am not a doctor and I know just enough to know how much I don't know. You should ask your doctor about treatment protocols, and the above was me as a layperson just thinking out loud (based on personal experience, but physiology does vary with each person and so do individualized medical considerations).
I am glad that your plan is to discuss this with your doctor because that is key. Second opinions can never hurt either. Be aware that there are different schools of medical thought between the mainstream and naturopathic, and some opionions may conflict. It would be wise to query the docs about the physiology involved so you can think about it and make an informed decision instead of a blind one.
posted
Anna, perhaps this article about leaky gut may answer some of your questions, but again ask the docs to be sure. This is not medical advice, only information to ask questions. Best. CI ps in this article it also mentions Dr Andrew Weil's guidelines for suspecting or not suspecting leaky gut. it may be over-diagnosed in some situations, but then again Dr Mark Hyman stresses that only 1% are diagnosed where the other 99% remain undiagnosed! See the article for details, when to suspect it and when not to, according to Dr Weil. There are links to other docs' articles about this subject in this article, for further reading.
posted
Thank you! I emailed the naturopath dr. in my LLNP practice and heard back from him already. He said he will consult w/ the LLNP but feels he can help me.
I like my LLNP but know she is busy w/ lots of patients and I want someone to thoroughly look over all my test results and help connect some of the pieces.
I think I am going to really hold off on addressing heavy metal toxicity --although I do plan to have my four amalgams removed as soon as possible.
I have the parasite test kit so will be doing that over the weekend. When all the results come in I am hoping between the LLNP and naturopath we can make sure to look at the possibility of a leaky gut and digestive issues before doing anything else.
I know I am not being very patient about this and I am very slowly realizing what a process this all is. I have never given my health this much thought and consideration because I have always been pretty healthy.
CI that article is a good one! Oh and I will check out the other one from lyme in md next.
Thanks you again!!
Posts: 376 | From New York | Registered: Jan 2011
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lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
The protein peptide zonulin which is actively being studied for causing leaky gut is a very important find in my opinion. It is also the reason for autoimmune issues such as diabetes, lupus and MS to name a few. It would also be interesting to find how many lymies have this issue.
My take, a peptide like this sounds like it is either a parasite or bacterial issue too. So how is it solved, researches don't know yet but stay tuned.
The only treatment i've heard so far: intermittent fasting, bentonite clay, and various fibers. There is no drug on the market yet.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
One thing that effects zonulin is gluten. You eat gluten, you release more zonulin and the tight junctions between the GI cells open up. This happens whether you have celiac or not (but more so in celiacs):
GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
All need to be treated at the same time, because they are all hiding out together and don't live in separate rooms. If one dies, it releases the other, and that other one releases the next one.
posted
GiGi---well that makes sense too! Ugh! I am really so confused!! I guess when I go in for my next appt I will need to ask about the safest way to treat for everything in a way that won't overload my body/immune system.
So much info and so many varying ways to treat things. I wish I had a medical background since I am finding all of this overwhelming. There are so many other things rather than just lyme/co infections that can stand in the way of getting healthy (heavy metals, parasites, thyroid, adrenal functioning, other viruses, etc).
I just wish it was standard for the med dr.'s you work with to test you for everything right at the beginning and then come up w/ a plan. I feel like I am doing so much of the leg work and truly really don't know what I am talking about half the time!!
Thanks everyone for the info. I have to sort through it all over the week. Hoping there will be a huge jump in my CD57 score so that can at least be an assurance that my body is responding to these antibiotics/supplements! Thank you!
Posts: 376 | From New York | Registered: Jan 2011
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lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
Its ok Anna -- don't be overwhelmed, just write down the issues such as zonulin with gluten. Your family I assume eats bread and probably don't understand gluten free. Instead of white bread get them used to a sprouted sourdough bread. Everyone's happy and most of the issues with wheat are significantly reduced.
Be careful with some doctors -- they tend to work one symptom at a time.
Why sourdough : the sprouting wheat contains far less gluten and if sprouted for 4 days contains none. Sour dough is generally fermented and the organisms again digest and transforms the gluten to something more digestable.
Fermentation such as (yogurt and saurkraut) in the diet is a tool to help wellness. So not only can we use bacteria in the form of probiotics, but we can use bacteria to pre-digest food as in sourdough bread. Another item for the notepad.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
This method has eliminated all the DNA dysregulations aka allergies I ever had and my husband ever had.
The major food and metal, fungi/mucor, penicillin, etc allergies are usually eliminated with the first bottle of 15 drops a day (taking it for 14 days). So are emotional blockages, enzyme dysregulations and a lot more.
I am just sending in Dr. K's saliva for his next bottle. He has been doing the therapy for a while and a bunch of his patients are on the therapy.
Read all you can and links on the website. It answers many questions if you just take the time. All good things take time.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
Chaps- that is an interesting idea and i had missed it up to this point. I don't understand why there is no clear answer for testing for leaky gut however. When the question came up on another thread people usually refer the questioner to other reading which is fine. I assume there is no clear test?
Posts: 357 | From California | Registered: Jun 2010
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am interested in all this at the moment too...so have been reading
www.healthy.net has a lot of info on leaky gut syndrome and also
lists labs that test for it...the test is called "intestinal permeability
test" or "lactulose / mannitol challenge test "...they are both the
same...you fast...take some lactulose and mannitol...then collect
your urine 6 hours later and send it to the lab...then you do it
again after eating a meal...I won't go into the details of how it
works...you can find it on the above website...
-------------------- "Gratitude is not only the greatest of virtues , but the parent of all others "....Cicero Posts: 254 | From new jersey | Registered: Jul 2009
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randibear
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11290
posted
i think slow and easy is the way to go. every time i've tried to do something i had a really nasty reaction.
-------------------- do not look back when the only course is forward Posts: 12262 | From texas | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
Hi Karensky- Thanks so much for replying. Everyone talks about this, but I am pretty confused on how to dive in. The information you are looking at from healthnet is by using the search feature? I am having some trouble using their drop down menus for some reason. I know Chaquita has suggested the Liz Lipski book and I hope to get that soon. I will put the test names you presented into the search feature at healthnet and see what I get.
Also I should add that I do not consider myself very sick, but I have been procrastinating with a treatment plan, so I am interested in what you mean by doing leaky gut and making sure your digestion liver etc are working well before de-toxing. When you refer to de-tox in this manner do you mean abx or aggressive herbal anti pathogenic substances? Or do you mean the classic de-toxers like milk thistle etc?
Also I hope people, and Karensky in particular, notice that I have started a new thread on leaky gut based on the conversation here
[ 03-27-2011, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: mattnapa ]
Posts: 357 | From California | Registered: Jun 2010
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quote:Originally posted by lymie_in_md: This is one of the best article I've read on leaky gut. Please take some time to read it, it affects how well treatment will work for some.
Yes, this is brilliant. It's written by a researcher in the Autism community named Susan Owens. She runs a very active Yahoo group called "Trying Low Oxalates."
My son and I have been on a low oxalate diet for 2 years, and I attribute my mild Lyme symptoms to following this diet. I'm not sure what the connection is between Lyme and oxalates, but I'm sure there is one. Before I lowered my dietary oxalates, I was going downhill fast. After the diet I improved enough to function normally, even though I didn't discover that I had Lyme until just recently.
This diet is one of the best things you can do for leaky gut. Many people on the Low Oxalate forum say they are getting relief from all kinds of medical problems, including Vulvodynia, IC, Fibro, CFS, MS, Autism, and even Lyme. (And you may notice that many of the diagnoses listed are ones that often are mistaken for Lyme--there must be a connection).
You'll find the most updated and accurate list of low oxalate foods in the Files section of the Yahoo group. New foods and supplements are continually being tested.
I am happy to help anyone get started on the diet or answer any questions--just PM me.
Posts: 39 | From Traverse City, MI | Registered: Oct 2010
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bcb1200
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 25745
posted
I have treated all 3.
I was on abx and supplements for lyme and Bart and then took Chlorella for detox and also Parastroy for parasites.
-------------------- Bite date ? 2/10 symptoms began 5/10 dx'd, after 3 months numerous test and doctors
IgM Igenex +/CDC + + 23/25, 30, 31, 34, 41, 83/93
Currently on:
Currently at around 95% +/- most days. Posts: 3134 | From Massachusetts | Registered: May 2010
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posted
back again...lost this thread...just figured out how to "find" threads
one is interested in following easily ...so excuse me for not
responding sooner...Mattnapa...I bought the Lipsky book Chiquita
recommended and it is invaluable for "gut" info...I believe Chiquita
and others who said the same thing , are absolutely correct , that
one must first make sure the gut is in good working order
BEFORE attempting any detoxing...and though there are tests out
there , like the one I mentioned above ( which can be done
through Great Smokies Labs...called sthg else now..but if you
google it ...it comes up...just did it ) I know my digestive system
is messed up whether it is leaky gut or sthg. else...I am working
on a program to strengthen it before I move on to detoxing ,
slowly , gently and one at a time the other issues...yeast ,
parasites etc by means of herbal and mineral and other natural
methods...I will only do ABX again as a last resort...and since I
cannot handle aggressive detoxing I must take it easy...I am still
formulating a plan for myself...am zoning in and getting close to
figuring it out...for myself...I don't think I will test for "leaky gut"
but assume I have it and treat for it...under my doctors
guidance...I will see my doc in a few weeks and hope to have all
my homework done by then so I can run it all by him...so I am
searching like you and most of us here for what works best for
my individual situation...and I strongly believe it is in healing the
"gut" first and foremost...this oxalic acid / oxalate is interesting
stuff...I want to know more about that too...so diet and enzymes
and minerals and herbal support is what I'm looking at now...
I'll look for your new thread...
-------------------- "Gratitude is not only the greatest of virtues , but the parent of all others "....Cicero Posts: 254 | From new jersey | Registered: Jul 2009
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