posted
I have read several times on this board that ammonia in the brain is what causes our neurological symptoms... (not lesions though, but brain fog, pressure headaches, fatigue...). This makes sense. But ammonia is a colourless gas. SO it could be that ammonia is not literally in the brain but in the gut, sending inflammation to the brain... As ammonia occurs from the breakdown of proteins... AND, antibiotics seem to help reduce ammonia...So my theory is that most of our neuro symptoms come too many digestive bacteria in stomach and gut breaking down proteins, causing too much ammonia, thus bloating, gas, inflammed gut, and then inflammed brain... That also explains why so many of us feel worse after eating (yep your load of digestive bacteria is creating even more ammonia) So how do we solve this? Apparently drinking a lot of water helps, helping the liver transform ammonia into urea helps also but what else? Please ask your doctors about this real issue, let's get started with finally solving the major mystery of this disease...
Posts: 723 | From Montreal | Registered: Oct 2010
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Haley
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posted
I asked my doctor about this. One MD out there calls it leaky brain. My doc says that it is caused by leaky gut, exactly as you described. So, if you know how to solve leaky gut then you are the right track to solve ammonia in the brain.
Posts: 2232 | From USA | Registered: Aug 2009
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posted
I do not think it's littereally leaky gut, there is nothing organical that "leaks", it's a formation of gas in order to digest food... so it's even more pernicious and difficult to treat... It's not about reinforcing the gut flora or anything... it's not like celiac disease either...
Posts: 723 | From Montreal | Registered: Oct 2010
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posted
As for leaky brain, if the brain starts to leak, it leads to formation of plaques, thus MS... But there must be some additional process or "infection" that causes MS. I mean not all of us here with neuro symptoms and inflammation have the MS diagnosis , we do have serious neuro sx with clear MRIs... So again i don;t think anything our organs are literally "leaking"....we have to find a way to control ammonia, and in order to do so, we have to control the digestive enzymes that break down proteins...That's my guess... Goh if we find it, we should all get a Nobel prize:-)
Posts: 723 | From Montreal | Registered: Oct 2010
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posted
Also just read this from Dr Yasko, about the methylation cycle: Ammonia is produced during the metabolism of dietary protein. The CBS up regulation drains methyl cycle intermediates in to ammonia, more ammonia than your system can handle. Ammonia detoxification is metabolically expense, using up two molecules of BH4 per molecule of ammonia. BH4 is necessary to generate neurotransmitters (dopamine, serotonin, and norepinephrine) and nitric oxide, our key vasoprotective molecule. Thus it is easy to see how a CBS up regulation, by generating ammonia and depleting BH4, can set you up for neurological, psychological, and cardiovascular disease states. We cannot change your DNA. We cannot stop CBS from generating excess ammonia, but if we restrict animal protein in your diet, we can decrease your ammonia burden, preserving BH4, such that you can start making neurotransmitters and nitric oxide again � in other words, we can compensate for your genetic challenge. The herb Yucca, Dr. Yasko�s Ammonia support RNA product, and supplementation with charcoal and carnitine will bind up or neutralize ammonia, and add to your dietary efforts....
Is anybody on a a strictly veggie diet?
Posts: 723 | From Montreal | Registered: Oct 2010
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fflutterby
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posted
On the yeast diet? What is left???
-------------------- Psalm 46 1 God is our refuge and strength Posts: 1367 | From North Jersey | Registered: Sep 2010
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posted
Interesting theory Shahbah - I'd like to give it a try as my neuro issues are in full force today and I feel like crap.
You use the acronym CBS - what does this stand for? Can you extend upon your ideas a little bit more plainly?
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karenl
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posted
ornitin also binds ammonia
Posts: 1834 | From US | Registered: Oct 2008
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posted
Yes it an interesting topic. I tested positive for ammonia a few years ago by a blood draw, The dr didn't know what to make of it. I also, at the same time had abnormal tests for Low Rennin low Aldosterone low sodium Very low Citrate High Ammonia Abnormal Brain stem response
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canefan17
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posted
Interesting topic for me as well.
When I take Zymex II on empty stomach I get MAJOR ammonia smell in urine and body odor.
I can only assume it's either 1) breaking down undigested food and causing the smell or 2) it's digesting parasites/tapeworms and that's leaving ammonia behind.
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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chiquita incognita
Unregistered
posted
This is a very interesting thread, Shabah! Thank you.
Ammonias would be the byproduct in particular from *animal* proteins. And these contribute to inflammation in general, of muscles, joints as well as the brain et al.
But we need animal proteins for B12 which also is a nerve anti-inflammatory.
So what I have learned as I read about diet et al:
Balance is key. It's not yay or nay to one thing or the other. Its balance.
All in proportion that is, to individual needs, constitutional tendencies, etc.
What I like to think of with meats and fish is thin slices of either one in a base of stir-fried vegetables. The vegetable matter would help to neutralize ammonias, a lot, and so would brown rice. Just like in Chinese or Thai foods.
Maybe to cut back on meat (not to cut it out if you don't want to), and to alternate meat-containing meals with purely vegeterian ones to cut back on ammonias, would be helpful.
LOts of fiber to sweep the colon clean and prevent putrefaction would be KEY! Putrefaction is sure going to create a LOT more ammonias than any meat-eating diet under the sun, that's a promise! Lots of water plus fiber to keep the bowels moving and clear would be enormously important here. Candida cleansing if present, ditto.
I would think that garlic in particular and also ginger would help to cut through some of the ammonias. But particularly the sulfur-containing parts of garlic would help to neutralize some ammonias, I would think. Hey, home made fresh pesto anybody? FYI I learned somewhere that if you chop garlic and leave it standing for about 20 minutes before cooking it, this aids the release of the active allicin components in the garlic.
Liver cleansing, yes. And further, to stimulate it. If you consume bitter or sour flavors about 20 minutes prior to a meal----ie. arugula, dandelion leaf salad, fresh-squeezed lemonade, etc----these stimulate bile flow from the liver. Bile, in turn, is a digestive fluid secreted by the liver which aids the breakdown of fats and cholesterols. IE, animal proteins and fats too. And probably, I am making an assumption here (have no concrete facts to back this up), ammonias too.
Again whole grains and vegetables would help to detoxify the ammonias somewhat. Vegetable soups, ditto.
And....omega 3s, medium chain triglycerides from coconut oil, etc these aid cellular respiration and protect the cells from environmental pollution. Olive oil could help too. I can't remember where I read about this, probably the Nutrition Almanac or Earl Mindell's The Vitamin Bible of the 21st CEntury, if I remember correctly.
So the *good* fats would be helpful to shielding us from some of the ammonias, so long as we are not dousing our body with ammonia that is.
Keeping the thyroid healthy would be terribly important. If the thyroid is sluggish then things sit in the digestive tract and putrefy. This contributes to ammonia and other buildup in the body, and in the brain. So keeping the thyroid toned and balanced, under our doctors' care, is important here. FYI a specialist who healed me of environmental illness more than 25 years ago, said that working with the adrenals and thyroid are key to immune health, generically speaking. It was part of his get-well strategy for his clients/patients.
Dr Richard Shames's book Thyroid Power www.thyroidpower.com offers info about why some people who test normal for thyroid function, may in fact still be sub-clinical, unrecognized low-thyroid patients. The book discusses the many flaws in our medical testing system where thyroid is concerned, and what the solutions are. YOu will learn an awful lot after reading this book, which will empower you to ask detailed and intelligent questions of your doctor.
My two cents worth.
Paul Pitchford in his excellent book Healing With Whole Foods has a ton of information about dietary balancing acts, the metabolism and breakdown of foods, the counterbalance to those processes, etc. I would highly recommend reading in that book for further information.
Best wishes, CI
PS I would never say that ammonias cause "all" Of our neuro symptoms but it surely does make sense that they would add to them.
The infection itself is a huge key, huge. And the byproducts, ie toxins, secreted by the bugs. Heavy metals, ditto you had better believe it. I have seen studies about that and read quite a bit, and am fully convinced. Many things can contribute to brain inflammation, but ammonias could surely be one of the contributing factors. To say that it is "The" cause is to suggest that cutting back dietary ammonias is our "cure". I would challenge that assertion. But it surely could be a support, yes. Great thread Shabah, love it, well thought out! Thanks!
The above information has not been evaluated by the FDA and is not intended to diagnose, cure or prevent any disease.
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chiquita incognita
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posted
quote: AND, antibiotics seem to help reduce ammonia...So my theory is that most of our neuro symptoms come too many digestive bacteria in stomach and gut breaking down proteins, causing too much ammonia, thus bloating, gas, inflammed gut, and then inflammed brain... That also explains why so many of us feel worse after eating (yep your load of digestive bacteria is creating even more ammonia) So how do we solve this?
Again Shabah, a really well thought-out thread. I think you are absolutely right that the ammonia is starting in the digestive tract and then ultimately affecting the brain, yes.
Do you have links and further information about antibiotics cutting down on ammonias? I would question this. In fact, I would think it would be just the opposite.
As for excess bacteria, may I very respectfully challenge that assertion. Again this thread is so well thought out and you are obviously so intelligent, Shabah. Thank you for this.
It's probiotics that aid digestion of many different foods, and we require them to assist with oxygenation, B vitamin manufacturing, and other things which would (only in part, working together with other factors) counter the nerve-inflammatory ammonias.
Digestive enzymes could also help a lot, if protein metabolism is sluggish.
To be sure that there is an ideal level of hydrochloric acid being secreted would be key too. Lacking sufficient HCL we can't digest foods properly, and ammonias plus other byproducts would be the result.
Digestive bitters as above aid the secretion of digestive enzymes and digestive juices, but supplementation could be necessary for some people who are deficient.
As for feeling worse after eating...so many things can contribute here. *Lack* of probiotic bacteria, lack of digestive enzymes, improper food combining, food allergies, compromised digestive lining especially as abx side effect, so many other things.....further reading: Digestive Wellness by Elizabeth Lipski, CCN MS
Best wishes, CI
The above information has not been evaluated by the FDA and is not intended to diagnose, prevent or cure any disease.
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canefan17
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posted
chiquita,
Great posts. Lot of lightbulb moments for me in there.
It wasn't until I really went after parasites did my ammonia issues arise. And now after 6 months of treating parasites I'm not absorbing foods well at all. Hence the ammonia build up.
For me it always goes back to treating Lyme and Co. In most cases when you take care of those - the rest seems to resolve under its own momentum.
I've added coffee enemas when things get sluggish. And ornithine when I stink to high heaven.
What do you think about juicing? I want to start making juices to drink every morning and figured kale, chard, leafy veegetables, spirulina, lettuce + fruits + pectin would be great way to absorb ammonia and help the body digest foods better
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Razzle
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posted
Yes, ammonia given off by Lyme, and also as a result of eating proteins (proteins are made from nitrogen, and ammonia is made from nitrogen and hydrogen), can build up and become neurotoxic if we aren't detoxing the ammonia.
Some things to help:
Low protein diet (I find I do best on this, not only because of Lyme-generated ammonia, but also because I have methylation cycle genomic variants that increase ammonia)
Yucca root powder - helps clear ammonia that results from protein in foods; can sprinkle the powder on the protein-containing foods or take a capsule daily with any meal that contains protein-rich food (meats, eggs, dairy, beans/peanuts, nuts, seeds).
Charcoal (taken apart from anything else except magnesium supplements or other laxative substances)
I don't think vegetable juices by themselves will clear the ammonia. But the veggie juices are very good for a lot of other things, and may make it easier to eliminate the ammonia in conjunction with the above additional measures.
-------------------- -Razzle Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs. Posts: 4166 | From WA | Registered: Feb 2011
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chiquita incognita
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posted
Hi Canefan A) I think juicing is a great idea, marvellous in fact.
I would tend to add cucumber to absorb stuff from the gut and for moisturizing, unless damp conditions already exist (excess water retention,etc). Celery juice is a good kidney cleanser and parsley is a good blood cleanser.
Ginger would help to get digestive juices going, not that it would taste great with all of the above.
Garlic, as above.....oh joy! WOuldn't that taste great, haha! Just joking around but seriously, I think it would help the ammonia issue.
I also think parsley and cucumber juice would help a lot.
B) I agree with Haley's post above, that leaky gut syndrome (if present) would contribute enormously, and in absolutely no small way either. An inflamed and/or leaky gut (from abx and many other causes, food allergies figure prominently) WILL contribute to all-around body toxicity and particularly to neuro stuff. And to leaky brain, yes she is right.
It works like this. You get irritants (food allergens, medications) to the gut lining which break down its integrity. The junctures between the cells covering the digestive tract, should fit together loosely enough to allow small particles to be absorbed, but not larger food particles. When the junctures between digestive wall cells relax to become less-than-tight as a fit, and they allow larger food molecules to get into capillaries which feed into the gut, then you get food particles floating around in the bloodstream.
This is a recipe for disaster, major disaster. The immune system is alerted and goes on the attack mode, becomes hyper-active. Then you get part-digested food molecules causing blood and all-around- cell toxicity. As molecules attach to cells, those cells are mistaken as "non-self" by the immune system and the body's own cells (with other foreign matter attached) are attacked by the confused immune system. So you get tissue degradation as with MS and arthritis et al. The nervous system is particularly involved, in fact some schizophrenics who are gluten intolerant, have recovered without medication just by avoiding gluten in their diets, according to several sources I have read. Because of the leaky gut syndrome caused by gluten exposure (only in gluten intolerant people).
A doctor's article on the Huffington Post states that the gut lining is the body's second brain, that there are many neuro receptors there, and that the gut lining is where neurotransmitters are manufactured by the body. So when the gut lining integrity is poor, the brain suffers too.
Another doctor's article on the Healthy.net site titled Leaky Gut Syndrome, Breaking the Vicious Cycle states that with leaky gut, the liver bile becomes toxic. So that detoxing with leaky gut present is really a disaster. The doctor wrote that the toxic bile can back up into the gallbladder and pancreas, causing pancreatic insufficiency (diabetes) and liver/gallbladder cancer. Not at all funny.
So we have to repair the leaky gut in order to help balance the immune system. It' s only one of the steps fyi.
The booklet Leaky Gut Syndrome by a clinical nutritionist, has great info and instructions for how to heal a leaky gut.
C) Coffee enemas open up the bile ducts in the gallbladder, according to several sources I have read. Stimulate the liver. I am not convinced that stimulating the liver is *always* a great idea, it depends on your body's needs at the time. Someone with sluggishness, yes it's probably wise. Someone who has elevated liver enzymes would probably be best advised to do something other than coffee enemas. There are many things that all can work differently, to calm the liver, stimulate it, etc. Catnip, chamomile as digestive anti-inflammatory, etc. You can read about this in the book Healthy Healing, a reference book in healthfood stores.
D) For anybody who is interested, I posted a thread about the Blood Brain Barrier integrity with lyme. It was pointed out to me that this barrier can be affected by the lyme infection. Talk about ammonia getting to the brain, and resulting neuro issues! I linked a few articles by docs about the issue and what to do.
And guess what. The best of those linked articles by the doc, states that leaky gut can have a lot to do with it. Brava Haley!!
Best wishes, CI
The above information has not been evaluated by the FDA and is not intended to diagnose, cure or prevent any disease.
posted
Great stuff, Razzle! You are so on top of it, as usual! You have been through so much, and please know that the gift you are turning around and giving us goes in equal measure to what you have been through. So thank you for helping all the rest of us with the knowledge you have gained.
Razzle
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posted
If one has methylation cycle defects, garlic may actually increase the ammonia...this is what happens to me.
-------------------- -Razzle Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs. Posts: 4166 | From WA | Registered: Feb 2011
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Razzle
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posted
Thanks CI...sometimes, helping others is the only thing that keeps me going...
-------------------- -Razzle Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs. Posts: 4166 | From WA | Registered: Feb 2011
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chiquita incognita
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posted
Hi Razzle Ditto! I find that posting here and reading other peoples' stories gets me out of myself. It feels good to help out if we can, doesn't it?
So I thank you *all* for this opportunity and aren't we all one collective human chain, all working together! Thank you all! Best wishes, CI
PS interesting about the garlic/methylation, Razzle. Thank you, I didn't know about that. Interested to learn more about methylation, got any reading sources that you like and trust? Thanks!
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Razzle
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The proverbial catch: If you have the CBS genetic variant (like I do), then the simplified protocol will be guaranteed to make you sicker. The way to prevent this is to get a methylation panel test done through Dr. Amy Yasko's lab before you start on any protocols, and then proceed depending on which specific genetic variants you have (instructions are included with your test results, though they are very complicated). Get the test kit here (less expensive than the first link I posted above):
-------------------- -Razzle Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs. Posts: 4166 | From WA | Registered: Feb 2011
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onbam
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posted
A lot more complicated than that
Bb actually invades the brain cells, triggering apoptosis, and the resulting inflammation leads to things like quinolic acid buildup, which can cause neurodegeneration. It can also strip myelin from the nerves.
OSP-A has also been shown to promote Amyloid-B synthesis in the test tube.
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posted
Lynme-human hybrid? This seems more scare tactic than science. Know anything more?
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Razzle
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