Topic: Liver Flush Controversy ~ What Is Your Opinion
Hambone
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I think we've all heard about doing liver flushes with lemons and olive oil, and many claim to expel hundreds of green stones this way.
And I read that this is impossible and that the "stones" that are coming out are actually formed from the lemon juice/olive oil mixed with bile and are not really gallstones.
But then why do people claim to get relief if they aren't really gallstones?
I have done a few of these flushes and have never seen a stone, nor do I get any relief. I also read that there is no way that the olive oil even travels to the liver to "soften stones" and "lubricate ducts"...that that is not even possible.
But how is it that so many people who do liver flushes find relief? Why do so many people swear by it?
I absolutely have formed no opinion (yet) on the subject. It has not worked for me, but I can't ignore the stories of people it has worked for.
Thoughts? Comments? Opinions?
Posts: 1142 | From South | Registered: Dec 2010
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posted
I have always done lemon water in the morning as a gentle liver cleanse....I've been doing it for years, even before the lyme.
I think it is best to see a ND to make sure that you are doing the proper flush for your body and take the proper steps to prepare for a liver flush.
I believe they work - but with the proper gudiance.
Posts: 98 | From Ontario | Registered: Feb 2012
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Lauralyme
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I've had great success with liver flushes. I've done two of them.
I had two surprises of positive results. One was an eye issue resolved itself which I always thought was a Babesia symptom.
The second surprise was my libido returned which I thought was gone forever.
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canefan17
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manybites is right Better do parasite killing BEFORE liver flushing.
Go search Dr Sutter Coke Flush on curezone
He beat a bad case of liver cancer with dewormer + liver flushes and now he helps 100s of terminal patients get well.
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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posted
I had great results with them. I did them several times until I didn't see very many "stones." Towards the end, it was more like crystals than stones. Why would it change at all if it was formed by the olive oil?
I had good results and better energy from them. If you aren't having results, maybe it's one of two things. 1) No stones 2) Not following the instructions 100%
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canefan17
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Some of the "stones" will be a result of the olive oil. But the dead parasites people pass from the flushes can't be mistaken for anything else.
I emailed close to 20-30 people about liver flushes and only a few said it didn't help them.
Liver flushes for me seem to be a case where anecdotal evidence is greater than the limited scientific research.
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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Hambone
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quote:Originally posted by sixgoofykids: I did them several times until I didn't see very many "stones." Towards the end, it was more like crystals than stones. Why would it change at all if it was formed by the olive oil?
Now this makes perfect sense.
quote:Originally posted by sixgoofykids: I had good results and better energy from them. If you aren't having results, maybe it's one of two things. 1) No stones 2) Not following the instructions 100%
I did have a CT scan and ultrasound and there were no stones that were seen, although I know they can still be there anyway. My liver / gallbladder area sure do hurt, though.
I've done two more parasite treatments since I tried a liver flush last, so maybe this time it will work?
Thanks everybody.
Posts: 1142 | From South | Registered: Dec 2010
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Hambone
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quote:Originally posted by canefan17: Some of the "stones" will be a result of the olive oil. But the dead parasites people pass from the flushes can't be mistaken for anything else.
I emailed close to 20-30 people about liver flushes and only a few said it didn't help them.
Liver flushes for me seem to be a case where anecdotal evidence is greater than the limited scientific research.
Thanks. I believe in anecdotal evidence over science any day.
Posts: 1142 | From South | Registered: Dec 2010
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Hambone
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I did the Coke, olive oil, lemon juice flush last night.
WHOA NELLY!
I got soooo nauseated about 2 hours afterwards, all night long. This morning I passed about 20 pea sized green stones.
I guess they're stones ( and man do they smell baaaaaaad! ).
Is it common to get so nauseated?
And is it common to still have liver/gall pain after the first time you get stones out?
Posts: 1142 | From South | Registered: Dec 2010
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Keebler
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- I never think body organs should be flushed. They don't quite work the way toilets do.
I also don't think excessive oil is ever good for us, even if a "healthy" oil. We can process only so much at one time.
Good food is really one of the best methods of colon "slow flushing" - FIBER. FIBER. FIBER. And we get all the nutrients first.
Support supplements can be good, too. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
I've done the Hulda Clark cleanse 18 times now -- so glad I found it 3 years ago.
For me, I can say for sure it was effective and cleansing. I noted the positive changes in my lipid panels of 2011.
We are all different, but I will use this cleanse the rest of my life.
-------------------- My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com 2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia 2006 Positive after 2 years of hell 2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species 2009 - Beating candida, doing better Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet! Posts: 830 | From Mass. | Registered: Aug 2006
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Hambone
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My stones were all different. Some were smoothe and tan. Some were round and bumpy and pea green. Some were darker brown.
I guess if it was the oil that formed these, they would've all been the same?
Posts: 1142 | From South | Registered: Dec 2010
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Hambone
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Well this is a bummer.
I saved 14 of my "stones". All of the tan and brown ones completely melted and were apparently not stones after all. The jar they were in was all oily after I washed it out.
There were 2 green ones still in tact. They look like little blackberries, only bile green.
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MichaelTampa
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I have done two of these and did not see stones, nor did I notice any particular results. My pendulum says the first one was very good for me and the second one was not, so I'm done for a while. My acupuncturist said that since I've been a vegan for years, it wouldn't surprise her if I just didn't have stones.
I do believe the stories, just not much for me.
Posts: 1927 | From se usa | Registered: Mar 2010
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posted
I did 8 in a row a couple weeks ago. Never saw anything and near the end of the week I started to really react to the lemon and olive oil-puffy eyes, run down, digestion problems. Guess it was just too much for my body-not sure if my liver benefited. I foolishly tried one again two days ago and felt even worse-lesson learned to pay attention to my body.
-------------------- Just a catepillar, full of imaginal buds. Posts: 143 | From Philadelphia, PA | Registered: Mar 2011
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Lauralyme
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8 in a row?! Hulda's site said to wait two weeks between flushes. I think even two weeks is not enough of a time interval
-------------------- Fall down seven times, get up eight ~Japanese proverb Posts: 1146 | From west coast | Registered: Mar 2008
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Carol in PA
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quote:Originally posted by Hambone: This morning I passed about 20 pea sized green stones.
I saved 14 of my "stones". All of the tan and brown ones completely melted...
There were 2 green ones still in tact. They look like little blackberries, only bile green.
. I'm curious...when you pass these stones, are they hard like rock?
The only gallstones I've seen were some that had been removed by surgery, and they were like smooth rocks, pretty large.
Posts: 6947 | From Lancaster, PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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canefan17
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I've talked to people who have passed dead parasites from a liver flush.
So while I don't disagree that the "stones" may be from the olive oil... it's hard to misinterpret parasites.
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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linky123
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I did a couple of homeopathic detoxes for the gallbladder/liver. Passed some white, smooth, things about the size of a marble.
Felt much better afterward.
I am currently tapering off benzos, so don't want to do anything too harsh, so just do the castor oil packs. You can google.
They are easy, if not a little messy, and work well when I get pain in the gallbladder/liver area.
-------------------- 'Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.' Matthew 11:28 Posts: 2607 | From Hooterville | Registered: Apr 2009
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Well, that could explain it. I got my protocol from Healing with Whole Foods. Though I still didn't notice anything.
-------------------- Just a catepillar, full of imaginal buds. Posts: 143 | From Philadelphia, PA | Registered: Mar 2011
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Lauralyme
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I asked my LLMD just what are these "stones" as they are not hard, I can squish them and they are bright green and waxy inside.
LLMD said they are cholesterol gobules. I don't really care what they are.....as I feel dramatically better after a flush.....even though it's not the most exciting way to spend two days.
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Hambone
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Did any of you have a pale stool after you did a liver flush? Is this to be expected, since the whole purpose was to get the liver/gallbladder to expel bile to force out stones?
Posts: 1142 | From South | Registered: Dec 2010
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steve1906
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Myself, I have very mixed feelings when it comes to altering/cleaning our organs!
The Truth about Gallbladder and Liver "Flushes" Peter Moran, MB, BS, BSc(Med), FRACS, FRCS(Eng)
Gallbladder and liver "flushes" are widely advocated as a way of treating gallstones and helping with medical conditions ranging from allergies to cancer [1-4]. In the usual �flush,� half a cup or more of a vegetable oil is consumed together with citrus juice and Epsom salts (magnesium sulphate), usually after a brief fast.
Many green, brown, yellow or black blobs of various sizes may later appear in the bowel movements. Some bear a slight resemblance to gallstones, but they are not stones. They are merely bile-stained "soaps" produced by partial saponification (soap formation) of the oil.
A recent demonstration found that mixing equal volumes of oleic acid (the major component of olive oil) and lemon juice produced several semi-solid white balls after a small volume of potassium hydroxide solution was added. After air-drying at room temperature, these balls became quite solid and hard. When formed in the intestine, these objects absorb bile and become green [5]. It has also been shown that red dye will appear in the interior of the �stones� if consumed with the oil [1].
The fact that the material is due to some kind of transformation of the oil is clear from user descriptions and ultrasound images. The most obvious evidence is that the alleged �stones� float on the toilet water [2,3,6], as might be expected of a largely oil-based substance. Gallstones sink. Patients with medically diagnosed gallstones may be able to confirm this for themselves by looking at their own ultrasound scans.The stones, if free to move, will settle at the lowest part of the gallbladder, even though bile is much denser than water. The picture to the right shows a cross-section of the gallbladder (the oblong black area) with three moderately large stones in the lowermost area.
Supporters of the flushes claim that although some kinds of stones sink in water, cholesterol stones, being composed of lighter material, will float [2,3].That's not true. Cholesterol stones can display some buoyancy while in the gallbladder, but only by floating between the older, concentrated bile lying in the lowest part of the gallbladder and the fresher, less concentrated bile above. Radiologists can use this �layering� effect to determine whether the stones are likely to be mainly cholesterol and thus suitable for gallstone dissolution using bile salts such as ursodeoxycholic acid. The same stones will sink in water and also in the slightly denser formol-saline preservative commonly used in operating rooms when saving the stones for the patient or for laboratory analysis.
This is why people accustomed to handling real gallstones simply know that they always sink. Other clues about the true nature of the "stones" include:
They tend to dissolve into an oily smudge in time, or with heat [5]. Patients are advised to keep them in the freezer [1,2]. Gallstones are stable. They have an irregular globular shape and in the many available photos [4] never display the sharply facetted appearance that gallstones often have when rubbing up against each other in an overcrowded gallbladder.
They are usually described as soft [7] and waxy or �gelatinous� [8]. Real gallstones are often very hard and difficult to crack. Softer gallstones always have a fine, crumbly, dry texture. Gallstones are thus difficult to cut cleanly with a knife, unlike the �stones� shown here.
They can be produced in amounts far beyond the capacity of either the gallbladder or the entire biliary system, as long as flushes are continued and regardless of whether the user still has a gallbladder.
Could Gallstones Be Expelled?
It seems likely that gallstones might occasionally be expelled. Small stones are regularly expelled from the gallbladder. There is some risk that stones over about 5mm in diameter will lodge in the bile duct, but most pass on into the bowel and out of the body unnoticed. Gallbladders may spontaneously empty themselves of small stones, but this is rare [9].
Also, the large oily meal would stimulate strong gallbladder contraction. This could help expel small gallstones or even, very rarely, a whole crop of small gallstones or sludge. Whether the whole ritual is needed is another matter. A meal of fried fish and chips, or the �whole fat milk and a Mars bar� sometimes used to stimulate gallbladder contraction during x-ray examinations might serve as well.
The magnesium sulphate (Epsom Salts) could have an added effect, as it also stimulates gallbladder contraction and relaxes the muscles controlling the release of bile into the intestines. However, it acts in the same way as would fat or oil, causing the release of cholecystokinin from the upper small intestine [10]. The availability of that hormone and the ability of the gallbladder to respond to it would be limiting factors.
The chance of success is further diminished by the fact that patients with symptomatic gallstones often have impaired ability of the gallbladder to empty (a factor in gallstone formation), stones that are too big to pass, or a blocked gallbladder duct (the �non-functioning gallbladder� in contrast studies).
Moreover, it can be predicted that even if occasionally successful, most patients would go on to form more stones. After successful dissolution of gallstones with ursodeoxycholic acid, 30-50% of patients form new stones within five years [11].
Despite much research, no simple, safe, or dietary measure has been found to prevent gallstone formation. The traditional fat-free diet has shown no consistent benefit [12], possibly because an occasional fatty meal helps expel small stones or sludge. This may be why patients on prolonged intravenous feeding are prone to develop gallstones.
In a popular variant, large quantities of apple juice are consumed in the days prior to the olive oil and lemon juice (or equivalent). Its supporters claim that apple juice is a stone solvent [13], usually offering in support a reference to the prestigious medical journal, The Lancet [14].
The cited item, �Apple juice and the chemical-contact softening of gallstones,� is merely a brief letter to the editor stating that the writer's wife had passed soft, brown, �fatty stones� after drinking a lot of apple juice and then a cupful of olive oil, apparently as part of a gallbladder flush.
This source offers no evidence that apple juice can soften gallstones. Actually, there is no way for apple juice or any other agent taken by mouth to come into contact with stones in the gallbladder or bile ducts. A very effective sphincter muscle prevents intestinal contents from leaking back into the bile duct or gallbladder.
Thus there is no logical reason to believe that any of the materials consumed in the "flushes" (oils, fruit juices, magnesium sulfate) could soften or otherwise affect the characteristics of gallstones in the gallbladder or bile ducts. Bile salts such as ursodeoxycholic acid can do so, but they must be absorbed into the blood stream and processed by the liver before they can affect the ability of bile to dissolve cholesterol stones�and a minimum of nine months of treatment is usually required.
Liver Stones
"Flush" proponents claim that liver stones are common, and one has even stated that 99.95% of cancer patients have them [8]. However, stones within the small liver ducts are very rare, at least in Western communities, as might be expected because the bile produced by the liver is 5-10 times less concentrated than gallbladder bile.
Small stones released by the gallbladder will occasionally drift into a liver duct. Otherwise stones mainly only develop in the liver ducts secondary to other serious biliary pathology such as strictures, choledochal cysts or bile duct cancers. Their rarity, even in patients known to be prone to stone formation is illustrated by a recent study on patients with gallstones but with no other biliary problems [7].
Only 3.5% of such patients were found to have stones in the bile ducts when imaging studies (cholangiography) were performed during their surgery. At least 95% of such stones were in the main bile duct, usually beyond the entrance of the gallbladder duct. Cholangiography can detect stones as small as 1-2 mm in the narrow liver ducts.
Are the Flushes Safe?
In patients with reasonable health and no complicating factors, flushes are generally safe. Consuming fatty foods may carry a comparable risk of stones getting stuck in the wrong place and provoking biliary colic or complications such as acute pancreatitis.
Similar concerns once applied to gallstone dissolution using ursodeoxycholic acid and to the shattering of gallstones with shock wave lithotripsy, but in practice complications are fewer than expected. I cannot recall yet seeing any reports of harm from a gallbladder/liver flush.
The greatest risk may apply to those who postpone surgery despite being at risk of major complications i.e. those with regular symptoms or who have recovered from potentially lethal complications such as acute pancreatitis or acute cholangitis (bile duct infection).
One woman who complained that her gallstones were unchanged on ultrasound despite three apparently fruitful flushes was advised that to up to 25 flushes may be needed. The above considerations suggest that very, very few will succeed no matter how many times they flush.
quote:Originally posted by Lauralyme: I don't really care what they are.....as I feel dramatically better after a flush.....even though it's not the most exciting way to spend two days.
This is also my opinion. It doesn't matter what they are to me, all that matters is that it helped. Maybe it's an entirely different kind of stone. I don't know. I do know I felt better and the sludge that came out looked different ... it wasn't like all of them looked like the "stones", there was also sludge that looked brown and crystal-like.
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Hambone
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quote:Originally posted by sixgoofykids:
quote:Originally posted by Lauralyme: I don't really care what they are.....as I feel dramatically better after a flush.....even though it's not the most exciting way to spend two days.
This is also my opinion. It doesn't matter what they are to me, all that matters is that it helped. Maybe it's an entirely different kind of stone. I don't know. I do know I felt better and the sludge that came out looked different ... it wasn't like all of them looked like the "stones", there was also sludge that looked brown and crystal-like.
Whatever it did, it definitely expelled all of my bile as evidenced by pale stools 36 hours later ( and better now ). I guess that alone is a good thing to get rid of toxins?
And surely that much of a rush of bile all at once going through the GI had to kill some bugs along the way.
I will do a few more in the future and see how that goes. It's weird. I was so sick the first 12 hours, but now it seems like my body is craving to do it again.
How often did you guys do them? 6-8 weeks apart seems too long to me. I read where some guy cured himself of cancer by doing them everyday.
Posts: 1142 | From South | Registered: Dec 2010
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I did them according to Hulda Clark's directions. I think it was two weeks apart. After the first one, I only felt good for a day or two. After each consecutive one, I felt better longer until I didn't need to do them anymore. The Hulda Clark directions say to do them until you only get a quarter cup of "stones/sludge", and that's what I did. At first it was a lot of stuff, then hardly any at all.
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17hens
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When my daughter was given instructions for them, she was told that if she felt sick (or got sick, although that's rare) that meant she really needed to do them.
She didn't feel sick until her 3rd and 4th flush and then better and better from then on.
She did them every 3 weeks.
Week 1 - 2 x castor oil pack in eve. followed the next morning by mini flush Week 2 - same Week 3 - wed - sun bile duct flush (big flush day was saturday)
Repeat and repeat until symptoms are gone and nothing exciting happening in the toilet.
-------------------- "My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever." Psalms 73:26
bit 4/09, diagnosed 1/10 Posts: 3043 | From PA | Registered: Dec 2009
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Mine were every day for 8 days but the recipe was different than Hulda Clark. I lemon and 1 tbsp olive oil blended. But it just ended up not being for me, and probably not a good thing for my leaky gut.
-------------------- Just a catepillar, full of imaginal buds. Posts: 143 | From Philadelphia, PA | Registered: Mar 2011
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