Topic: Mold Remediation -- Cleaning / Throwing Away Also Needed
MichaelTampa
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The Surviving Mold book by Dr. S., and his website, has an extremely brief list of things to do when doing mold remediation.
Such as, books (if they have been opened) and papers need to be removed from the home permanently. Copy/scan the papers if needed. But the list is WAY too short regarding what needs to be discarded, and what needs to be kept, and how to clean it. He mentions generally that electronics can be cleaned.
Wood furniture finished with enamel paint? Wood furniture finished with stain? Wood furniture that is unfinished? Can these things be cleaned in some way? How to clean walls, and do they need repainting, and does it matter how glossy or other features of the paint? I'm sure the list goes on and on and on.
Anyone know the answers to all these questions, or better yet, is there some trusted reference with this information? Something more that Dr. S. gives actual patients? Or any other source?
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Catgirl
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Michael, you have been so kind helping all of us with your responses. I wish I could help you with this (sorry).
My daughter used to live in Florida and rented an apt that was loaded with mold, but they didn't know it. Both she and her room mate became severely ill shortly after moving in. They eventually found it in the a/c vents with a room freshener hanging in the vent to disguise it. I just told my daughter to get rid of everything, and to use bleach on her clothes at the laundromat.
Maybe you could call a mold remediation company?
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Pocono Lyme
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Michael, I feel the same as Catgirl.Wishing I could help you. I can only share experience. We've had a few issues of our own here. Main one being a leaky roof.
New roof still leaked. Another contractor fixed that area and another leak was noticed in a different area of the house.
By the time the source was found, there was plenty of mold in insulation, rafters mainly.
My husband pulled out the insulation and discarded. He left the area open and sprayed with a mixture of peroxide, white vinegar and boric acid. 1:1 peroxide and vinegar I believe 1qt and 1 tsp boric acid.
Of course protective equipment.
Another area, different issue, he used ammonia and water. I think that was 50/50 solution. Mainly carpeting and wood was affected.
I found this site. Not sure if it'll help. Also a dehumidifier in the finished basement made a huge difference there.
9 But he said to me, �My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.� Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ�s power may rest on me. Posts: 1445 | From Poconos, PA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Tammy N.
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Hi Michael,
We did a lot of remediation work although we barely had much of a problem (ERMI showed mold, but air samples were clear). This made it confusing. I have genetic issues with mold (and Dr. S's book terrified me...not sure that was a good thing, we kind of went off the deep end and went overboard). So because I was terribly sick, we decided to be on the safe side and treated everything as if it was tainted with mold (even though it wasn't). We got rid of all carpeting, our family room couches, mattresses, pillows, etc. We basically got rid of about half of what we owned (this felt enormously freeing, by the way. Why have so much stuff anyway??)
I did a lot of research, as did momlyme (remember her?), and I relied a lot on her findings.
To answer your question, ammonia is the best agent to use because it not only kills the mold but it also neutralizes the mycotoxins (this is the important part). Momlyme spoke with specialists in the field who have studied mold for 20-some-odd years, and they told her ammonia was best. From many sources, I've heard never use bleach.
For items that you want to keep, the process is suppose to be that you hepa vacuum the item, then wipe it down with 50/50 ammonia water (you need the full respirator mask that looks like its for chemical warfare. You can get at Home Depot in order to tolerate this). And when it dries, vacuum again and wipe down again. Yes, we did this with everything we own. (If you do not have a hepa vacuum, Home Depot sells Ridgid Shop Vacs but you have to buy a seperate hepa filter to install (HD sells these as well) because the one it comes with is only a regular filter.)
We washed all of our clothes with 2 cups of ammonia per load. (And nothing got damaged. Everything washed perfectly.)
We kept the sofa and 2 chairs in the living room. We thoroughly hepa vacuumed them, then ran an ozone machine to kill any possible spores. Again, we really didn't have much of a problem, but we went extreme with how we approached it because we wanted/needed to be sure the home was safe for me.
We got rid of everything in our attic. I kept several plastic bins of Christmas ornaments, that's it. I still have to wash those down.
We moved all of our boxed files and records out into the garage (they were previously in the attic.... you shouldn't keep anything in the attic, btw). I still need to go thru these files. I purchased oversized zip-lock bags. For the records we are going to keep, I will place them in batches into these bags, then inside plastic boxes for storing.
We kept some of our favorite books. Again, we vacuumed them thoroughly and wiped down with ammonia and water.
We ran our ozone machine a lot. Took turns in every room, from the crawl space, to the attic, to every closet, etc. (You cannot be in the room while it is running, btw. And you also need to turn off your HVAC system so it doesn't pull the ozone all through the house.) It's best to run it for about 4 hours in a closed-off space, then open the windows and air out for about 20 mins before entering. It's not safe for people or animals.
We got rid of all of my potted plants. It dawned on us, mold grows in the soil! Every time you water the plants you help the mold grow. I use to especially notice a smell when I watered my beloved orchids. All gone now.
Finally, or maybe I should have started with this.... you need to first be sure you have remedied any problems that allowed moisture to accumulate in the first place. Whether it is from a leak in the crawl space or a leak in the roof or shower. Whatever it is, you need to fix the problem before you begin the hard work of remediation.
Also, we always run a dehumidifier (Delongi with a built in pump so you do not have to keep emptying. We bought our at Costco.) You certainly need this is FL. Humidity levels should be kept under 50% (we try to keep closer to 40%). We have a humidistat that we watch closely and move around to different areas of the house.
We actually moved out of our home. During this time my husband pulled all the soil away from the foundation (in sections) and thoroughly sealed our entire foundation. Inside the crawl space, he hepa vacuumed and sprayed with ammonia (had to wear a Hazmat suit and that fancy war mask for this). He had the roof ripped off down to the studs and sprayed with ammonia up there. We also installed an attic fan with humidistat and temp control combo.
We also installed an excellent HVAC system with a thick Merv 16 filter and UV germidical blue light.
It was a long, difficult journey. But worth it now because we know this home is clean and safe.
Please let me know if there any more info I can share with you to help you along. I and/or my husband would be happy to speak with you if there is any way we can help.
Good luck!
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posted
Tammy, Did you notice an improvement in your health after all that work? Will an ozone machine kill all the mold even in carpets or do you have to use a hepa vacuum?
What do you mean when you said that the ERMI showed mold but the air samples were clear?
How did you afford all this work and a new HVAC system during treatment?
Did you get this process from the Mold books by Ritchie Shoemaker?
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MichaelTampa
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Thanks for all the info, everybody! We have a couple known spots needing remediation, we can only hope we'll get it all taken care of and not miss some things. But definitely confused with lots of logistical questions.
Tammy - Many questions ... What did your husband seal the foundation with? What brand of various machines did you get -- HVAC, ozone, UV light -- do you like them all or any regrets on the brand/model? We don't store anything useful in attic, but have been putting empty boxes there, sometimes with the syrofoams from packaging, as sort of a cheap insulation. Are you suggesting that's a problem, or just that we wouldn't want to ever store anything useful there or go up there?
We were planning to install a whole home dehumidifier connected with an air exchange and air conditioning system at the time of the remediation, as part of the remediation is that the air handler closet is moldy. Is there a reason you didn't go with a whole home dehumidifier approach? Not sure if it is realistic to clean the indoor unit or just replace it at that time? And then what to do with the outdoor unit?
I'm confused about the order of things, with an ozone machine. Empty the house first into storage or something, or do ozone and/or remediation with things in the house to clean them too? Do ozone machine after remediation but before bringing things back into house? Would wiping down the walls with ammonia water replace the need for the ozone machine--are they doing the same thing or different thing?
Why rip off the roof to put ammonia on the studs? Sounds hard, but also, what is this accomplishing? Isn't this just in the attic anyway, won't that just be moldy regardless of what you do?
General questions for anyone -- What about the idea of a whole house vaccuum as part of this, I have heard it mentioned before, not necessarily related to mold, but not sure I understand it?
We have a bathroom that has a fan with a vent through the roof. That's probably contaminated from the bad air all this time? Should we clean or replace that, and what order with everything else, to avoid contamination of the good clean stuff with the old bad stuff?
What about between the sheetrock walls, with leaks, there is probably mold there, and also probably from the attic anyway. Just work on good seals where pipes and whatnot come out of the walls, rather than trying to replace/clean those walls and inside them?
Our refrigerator gaskets and some other parts have mold on them. Should we be trying to clean, or just throwing away and replacing the refrigerator? What about compost? Is anyone saving food scraps in the the house to eventually put outside? Putting it out every day? Saving it for longer? We got in the mode of saving it in the refrigerator, too many bugs and bad smells if we kept it for more than probably the same day. But then the container in the refrigerator builds up as moldy...
If at some point we'll be wanting to put insulation in the attic, should we wait until all this is taken care of? Should we empty everything out of the attic first, or just leave whatever crap is there forever, and just never use anything?
Sorry for all the crazy questions. Mind just races on the topic, not knowing kind of how to plan all of this, sounds like lots and lots of work.
Wonderful for those who have succeeded. Anyone get a good ERMI score after doing the work?
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Tammy N.
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soccermama - I do think cleaning our home environment has made a positive impact.
Some experts say ozone kills mold, others say it doesn't. I think it works but did not use it as a stand alone treatment. It would not be good enough for carpet, imo. I think it is necessary to get rid of the carpet (moldy or not, carpet is just too toxic anyway.)
Remember, even dead mold still produces mycotoxins. So just killing the mold is not enough. That's why wiping down with ammonia is a good idea because it neutralizes the mycotoxins. In cases where it is not possible to wipe down with ammonia, at least using the ozone is good because since it kills the mold it stops it from growing.
As for how did we afford this? Savings. Thank God. Last year, by far, was my most difficult. Had huge medical expenses, then the home project.
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Tammy N.
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Michael - I may not be able to answer all of your questions tonight (have to do some things before the presidential debate), but I'll try to make a good dent.
The order of things is not something that is easily spelled out. You will see as you go along that you work out the details as they make sense. There is a lot of cleaning, then re-cleaning. Sometimes, just after a mini project, you realize there may have been a better way. Then you just keep going. I'm not trying to be vague, I'm just saying what seems to be par for the course. And you'll probably find, like we did, that you can make yourself nuts about it all.
I think a good way to go is empty one room. Wash all the walls down and clean it thoroughly. Then as you clean items, store these clean items in that sparkling room. Then as the other rooms empty, you can clean them then move furniture back in, and so on. Make sure your HVAC system is not on during this time blowing things all through the house.
We did not move everything out of the home. We did home improvements during the remediation (having wood floors resanded, etc.) so our process altogether was different than what I think yours will be. We moved all of our stuff from the upper floors down to the lower level. Then when the rooms were emptied and cleaned, we painted, did the floors, etc. It turned into a big project. For instance, how often do you empty all of your closets? But when they are empty you realize 'gee, we should paint this'. The projects seem to snowball.
I will get the info from my husband regarding the foundation sealing.
The HVAC system we got was Lennox XC-17-36-230 Solar ready 16.5 seer condensor. With Lennox SLP98uh090v36b 98% efficient furnace. We did not get a whole house dehumidifier as all of the companies we met with said it wouldn't be necessary and this unit is very effective at dehumidifying anyway. I suppose a whole house dehumidifer is more needed in FL.
Not sure how to answer your questions regarding your indoor/outdoor units. We just wanted to replace and get new. We also had our ducts cleaned (you have to research this carefully to get the job done right.) We are so happy with our unit. We said if we ever move again, one of the first things we would do is get a great HVAC unit for the new house. Wish we had done this years earlier. Plus it is a major energy saver$$.
The ozone machine we have came from my mother - it is a Living Air Classic (she use to rep the line a long time ago). I believe there are better units out there, but since this was given to us, this is what we have and use.
Regarding attic - not a good idea to store cardboard, etc. as this is food for mold (cellulose). If it's not something you need, just get rid of it. Bring large trash bags and bag the stuff up there before dragging down and through the home.
The reason we ripped off our roof down to the studs was 2 reasons -- first, it was ready to be replaced. But second, we had created a moisture issue years ago when I use to run a humidifier in our bedroom all winter long in the evenings (because of my dehydration issues). We had no clue that the moisture was accumulating in the attic until we went up one day and everything was covered with droplets of water. Then we noticed a light green color on the plywood (underside of roof). We didn't know better at the time, but my husband just moved everything around and sprayed with bleach. Once we learned the dangers of mold, then we realized everything up there needed to be tossed or cleaned thoroughly. So when it came time to replace the roof, we wanted to blast it all with ammonia to be sure it was clean. Now it is completely empty. Hubby won't let me put anything up there. (He is scarred.)
I would empty your attic completely before insulating. My husband is just about to insulate our attic. We ordered a formeldehyde free fiberglass insulation at Lowes. It is encapsulated in plastic (no paper, as it could feed mold). There are so many products out there. We weighed them all out and think (hope) we came up with the right one for us.
You do not want any mold in your attic. Even though you don't think it is part of your living space, it still is not good for it to be there. Any mold in any part of the home is not good. Air exchanges throughout the home because of negative air pressure. So you really can't have mold anywhere.
You should be able to keep your refrigerator. Just clean down thoroughly with ammonia.
I would leave compost outside.
I don't know much about whole house vacuums. Can't add anything here.
If there were leaks behind walls you must rip out, clean with ammonia and replace with new materials. It is not safe to have mold behind the walls. During this whole process, it must be done safely. There is so much to this. You need to tape off and safeguard all other areas of your home. Professionals will tell you you need negative air containment, air scrubbers, etc. We did not have any issues like this, so we didn't have to deal with this. I would get good estimates from good reputable people. Even if you end up doing it yourself, you will gain knowledge by talking to the pros. (Just a tip, any water leaks from plumbing or behind walls is usually covered by insurance. This would allow you to hire pros that insurance would pay for. Was told this tip from a mold remediator.)
Finally, we did not do another ERMI test after treating everything. To be honest, we felt like we went off the deep end after Dr. S's book scared the cr-- out of us. We felt settled that we made our home absolutely safe and clean and just decided to step away from the obsessive thinking.
I think I covered everything. Let me know if I missed anything or if you have any more questions.
Best to you.
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Pocono Lyme
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Michael, I couldn't read everything but one thing did jump out at me. The fan in the bathroom with the vent through the roof. Long story, but after thousands of dollars and multiple contractors, my husband found the source and it was the pipe through the roof from the bathroom vent.
The elbow apparently wasn't glued and got disturbed and came apart. Rain water was coming in.
-------------------- 2 Corinthians 12:9-11
9 But he said to me, �My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.� Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ�s power may rest on me. Posts: 1445 | From Poconos, PA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Tammy N.
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Also, Thieves is suppose to be great. Not sure if it is scientifically proven, but it has a reputation for being effective.
They also have a diffuser for Thieves that I've heard people say they thought was helpful.
Oh, and a Propolis diffuser is another great tool. We have one. Used it for months. Have not used it recently. I herxed hard the first few times we used it.
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sparkle7
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I didn't read all of this but how about getting an ozone machine? There's one on Amazon for about $70-80 & alot of people highly recommend it.
It's not a 100% answer but it might help...?
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posted
An environmental doctor told me to get rid of anything that was not made out of glass.
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MichaelTampa
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girl -- What did that doc have to say about existing drywall? I'm interested in all opinions, and that seems a very conservative one, so it makes me wonder how they suggested dealing with existing drywall, as it is more porous than other things they said to throw away. What type of cleaning/painting or other treatment did they think was appropriate for drywall?
Posts: 1927 | From se usa | Registered: Mar 2010
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Michael, I left my home because of mold, so my situation is different than yours. Actually, I've left two homes because of mold, so I do have a lot of experience with this over the past 10 years.
I'm not sure of the extent of your damage, but if it were me, and I had drywall that I was concerned about...
if there was still water intrusion or the drywall was molded or water damaged from the inside, I would gut it and get rid of it definately, but you'll want to tape off the inside of the room with plastic, etc. as you'll be opening "pandora's box" if you gut the wall.
If the spores are on the drywall on exterior of the drywall, say, from and HVAC system blowing them there or whatever, I would first clean them with grapefruit seed extract, very carefully, clean the floors, get all that done and then maybe sand the drywall, and clean again.
If you like, I'd be more than happy to talk with you on the phone.
I don't know a whole lot about remediation itself, as far as replacing wood and all that stuff, but I did read a book on Mold Free Construction because after I left, I was going to start from scratch and didn't want to make any mistakes. But from everything that's happened, I'm sure I do have some ideas of what to do vs. what not to do type of thing.
If you want to talk though, or if there's somewhere I can read your "story" on where the water intrusion came from, maybe I can help.
I've been through hell and back with this mold. I know you want to fix the water intrusion first (obviously) and get rid of the fungal growth before it "blooms".
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posted
You could always call a good environmental doc and schedule a phone consult with him and I bet he would answer some of your questions.
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posted
Shoemaker also recommended Michael Pinto's book "Fungal Contamination: A Comprehensive Guide for Remediation" (on his website)
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MichaelTampa
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girl -- We've got a couple of hot points that we are well aware of -- the air conditioner closet is molded, and so it is spreading this everywhere through the house as we continue to use the A/E -- and we have something bad behind where the washing machine is, and not sure how far that goes until they start tearing things up.
But we have a couple spots of drywall on the ceiling that have clearly been wet as they are stained. They are both surrounding the A/C vents in the ceiling, which I hear is a typical spot from condensation when the vents aren't sealed perfectly The A/C ducts and vents have since been redone, we keep hearing form people they don't see evidence that there is a mold problem from this drywall which obviously was wet.
We have had a couple leaks inside the walls where a pipe had a leak in one case, and from the shower/tub fixture caulking gone bad in another case. Again, we know the drywall was wet. How wet and for how long, we do not know.
We had a washing machine flood a portion of the house with water. The big fancy dryer people came in with fans and said they attended to it well and supposedly measured that the drywall was not molding. There was definitely drywall wet inside walls, as the back of the bedroom closet carpet was wet, meaning water traveled through drywall from another room to get there. The drywall didn't necessarily get wet at a great height, but definitely wet. at floor level.
We take for granted that there is mold in the attic and behind the drywall (the place where wires and pipes are placed). As I understand it, these places are not really shut off from the attic, anyway, that air can travel freely from attic to there, that wires can be dropped in there in that way (not sure, but my understanding). And we know this drywall was wet in spots, as described above.
So, on one hand, I hear (from Dr. S. I believe) to vacuum the drywall, wash it with ammonia mix, then vacuum again. On the other hand, I wonder, particularly when you mention getting rid of everything that's not glass. I wonder if we should be putting sealant or paint of some form on the drywall, to try to keep the mold out of the living space. Seems like that might be more realistic, if it would make a meaningful difference.
Any recommendations on a good environmental doc, where to find one in my area? Or, you mentioned a phone consult. Dr. S. won't do phone consults with non-patients, and you have to go there to be a patient. It's a possibility, but was hoping to avoid such a trip. Sounds like I should be getting that book you mentioned. I am finding the Dr. S. book had more info in it than I was aware than when I originally posted, but don't believe it is going to be complete, in any event. Still, wouldn't mind doing the phone consult with a doc sort of thing, but not clear on how to accomplish that, who else to trust beyond Dr. S.
We are planning on getting an air exchange system and dehumidifier (along with also a "regular" A/C-heater), and this can create "positive pressure", meaning when the door to the outside opens, junk blows out instead of into the house. Seems this has potential to keep junk from being sucked in from the attic and interior of the walls.
Posts: 1927 | From se usa | Registered: Mar 2010
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Hey. Let me talk with my mold remediation friend and I'll get back with you tomorrow.
Posts: 631 | From the south | Registered: Nov 2008
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I messaged you the Doctor's name. PM me back if you need his number, or if you don't quickly find it through google. Also, wanted to let you know I haven't read that book, not sure if it's good or not.
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MichaelTampa
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This company claims their "air sterilizer" kills mold (and other things) by heating it to 400 degrees, no filter, just heat. Anyone believe it, or use this, or think this might be a good selection?
The brand is AirFree, models are Onix 3000, Platinum 2000, and P1000
posted
I'm leery of it. I clicked on the customer review and couldn't find them. Also, you can't "kill" mold spores, I think they're already dead.
Posts: 631 | From the south | Registered: Nov 2008
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posted
If you could get a hold of the author of "Mold Free Construction", he would be a great resource.
His credentials: D. Douglas Hoffman, author
State Certified Class "A" General Contractor State Certified Master Roofing Contractor State Certified Master Plumbing Contractor Licensed Indoor Air Quality Consultant Environmental Consultant NIAQI Trainer/Speaker NIAQI Advisory Board Member Certified Mold Inspector Certified Mold Remediator Certified Mold Project Manager Originator of the Mold-Free Process� of Construction
(I'm sure he would know what to do!)
Posts: 631 | From the south | Registered: Nov 2008
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posted
Michael, I have the GT3000 ozone machine, and it's a good machine. Fairly expensive though.
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