posted
I just had a thought......Is is possible bartonella can suppress other co-infections like babesia, or however it is spelled....
So that I wouldn't run fever, ect.... or have any other symptoms....
-------------------- Lyme flare June, July, August of 2013. Diagnosed September 2014 Lyme, Bartonella, Mycoplasma, Mono Posts: 595 | From Texas Crossroads | Registered: Oct 2014
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Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
From what I understand...
One infection can be the target of the immune system while others are not getting the reactions from your body at a certain time. Once one infection is no longer as much of a threat, another one can pop up.
I don't have any scientific backing for this (may be some, I just don't have any), just observations over many years.
posted
Thanks Tincup. I have heard that bart can suppress the immune system; so I was thinking maybe it would be possible to have other co-infections and not know it.
-------------------- Lyme flare June, July, August of 2013. Diagnosed September 2014 Lyme, Bartonella, Mycoplasma, Mono Posts: 595 | From Texas Crossroads | Registered: Oct 2014
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TF
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 14183
posted
It is very possible, and very common, to have other coinfections and not know it.
I tested positive for babs and bart through Igenex. It surprised my lyme doctor and myself as we had not identified any babs or bart symptoms. And, I had been sick at least 12 years and treated lyme for 2 before I got to him.
However, as soon as we started treating babs, all hell broke loose.
I never had any reaction to the bart treatment, but I noticed over time that I never got any more episodes of horrendous abdominal pain, so that must have been the way bart was displaying in my case.
Many lyme patients will tell you that once they treat one disease, the other coinfections "pop up." That's why some docs liken it to peeling away layers of an onion. Treat lyme and babs pops up. Treat babs and bart rears its ugly head, etc.
Babs suppresses the immune system. I have never heard that bart does that, however.
"In addition, it is known that Babesia infections, like Lyme Borreliosis, are immunosuppressive." (page 5 of Burrascano)
Nearly every patient with lyme also has bartonella and babesiosis. They call them "the big 3" and top lyme doctors just automatically treat their patients for all three based on past experience like what I described above.
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posted
Cool, thanks for the info. I'll talk to my lyme doc about it. I don't see the harm in treating for Babesia just to see. Would there be any harm?
-------------------- Lyme flare June, July, August of 2013. Diagnosed September 2014 Lyme, Bartonella, Mycoplasma, Mono Posts: 595 | From Texas Crossroads | Registered: Oct 2014
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posted
That's what many LLMD's do .. treat to see .. because the testing doesn't always pick up the infections.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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TNT
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 42349
posted
quote:Originally posted by Nula: According to Buhner, Babesia can supppress Bartonella.
Nula, which book of Buhner's does he say this? I feel this helps give credence to the Russian doll theory about the pathogens. I have his Healing Lyme book, but not his other books, and may just have to get the one that he says this in.
thanks
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"Babesia is really tough. It can beat bartonella's ass any day of the week. So after a while it kills off the bartonella."
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TF
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 14183
posted
I don't believe that and it wasn't true in my case or any other lyme patient that I know.
Nearly all lyme patients have babs and bart also. Ask any top lyme doctor. The babs is not killing off the bart.
I was sick at least 10 years before I was tested for lyme and cos. Test results showed that I had babs and bart both. So, my babs never killed off my bart in 10 years, right?
Posts: 9931 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
Yes, that makes sense, TF. I'm not entirely sure what he means by this comment ...
In his Bartonella book, Buhner writes:
"The core protocol is oriented around reducing the cytokine cascade that bartonella causes, protection and normalization of the endothelial lining of the blood vessels, protection of blood cells, protection of the heart, protection of the spleen and liver, support of the lymph system and immune support and protection.
Please understand that if you do these things, the organisms cannot continue to survive in the body. The use of specific antibacterials is not essential.
However, one of the herbs in the protocol, Sida acuta, is a very potent systemic, broadly active anti-bacterial.
Several other antibacterials will be suggested, if you truly desire to approach the disease through the use of antibacterial substances.
All of them will have some degree of activity against bartonella organisms.
Nevertheless, the most effective approach for bartonella is *not* antibacterial."
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posted
So he is saying the best way to deal with Bart is herbs and supplements?
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Brussels
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 13480
posted
The way I see it, is that we are an ecosystem.
I just got an article of a professor that states that we have a 10:1 amount of cells (or DNA) inside our bodies that are FOREIGN. It means, 10 cells of foreign beings to 1 cell of us (human).
We are not a single human being, but a community.
So just think of your body as an ecosystem. Like in any ecosystem, you have a few dominant species, and other species that live on the back plane.
Most species live on the back plane. Until any of them do not kill us (the host), we will keep on going FULL of THEM inside us, many are beneficial critters, many aren't.
At a certain point, one or a few infections will be winning (then we get the symptoms, for example, of bart, or babesia, and some of lyme), at other points, the others will take the first roll, and we get more candida, erlichia, mycoplasma, tuberculosis, whatever.
It doesn't mean ONE community suppresses the other, but I do think it is a whole ecosystem playing, including our own immune defenses, and our own friendly bacteria that play roles inside ourselves.
Once you treat one active infection, you open spaces for others to show up. The aim is to create balance in the body, so that, you as a host survive and not only go downwards with winning pathogenic bacteria...
Once you clean something, the other will show up. It looks almost infinite. Dr. K keeps telling how much these critters communicate with one another with chemical signals.
Like in an ecossystem, critters have their friends and enemies. They work in synergy for or against us, the hosts.
I know, by experience, that without borrelia, the so called coinfections become much weaker. Dr. K. used to say that borrelia is like the general of coinfections, without it, they lose their boss and weaken. ------------------------
The aim of any treatment is to reach a point where your immune system and your friendly critter community is winning against pathogenic critters.
That is how I see. That is why we keep peeling the onion of pathogenic infections, with the hope that one day, we find equilibrium.
Today I see that the only thing that can keep us healthy is a functioning immune system.
It is not only killing the bad pathogenic bacteria only: this will only buy you some time, but disease will come back sooner or later...
... if the immune system is under-functioning, your body toxic, attacked by EMRs, by chemical toxins, heavy metals, bad nutrition, etc.
Just see how candida works: in a clean body, not stressed, not toxic, it won't 'grow'. It remains in its friendly 'shape', not aggressive, helping you digest your foods.
In a hostile environment, it turns pathogenic (the same good candida becomes bad candida), it grows exponentially, creates awful root-like structures you can see in the microscope, becomes a monster pathogenic creature, ...
...that is very immunosuppressive, very toxic, and can attack your whole body, very much like like borrelia.
it's not the pathogen only, but the whole ecosystem, and the environment (the milieu) that matters.
Borrelia has no chance with a functioning immune system and a clean body.
Borrelia has been with us forever, much before we have become human beings. Borrelia species were here much before we existed, as humans. The Otzi man (5,000 years old) had borrelia DNA already!
Borrelia didn't kill humans, why now has it become so pathogenic for some people? Dr. K. used to say that where he grew, there were always borrelial infections in old grandmas, who suffered for decades of arthritis, but died at old age.
Today, it a different picture. The same pathogen creates a different agressive disease that is bewildering. Dr. K also suffered from tick born diseases.
There is something ELSE causing the catastrophe, which in his opinion is linked to toxins, pollution, stress.
I see guys being bitten by ticks the whole time where I live, why only some fall so sick??
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
I agree with Brussels. It's all about finding equilibrium within an unbalanced body/ecosystem.
quote: So he is saying the best way to deal with Bart is herbs and supplements?
Well, he is suggesting specific herbs for support and protection as well as specific antibacterial herbs. It's a combo.
As far as antibiotics for Bartonella go, Buhner does suggest some antibiotics in his book (erythromcycin, specifically). But also talks about "resistance" and "mixed results".
His Bartonella bottom line:
"In essence, three primary things must occur: 1) the endothelium must be protected, 2) the red blood cells protected, 3) the cytokine cascade interrupted. These three things alone will reverse the infection and most symptoms and elminate the bacteria from the body."
I highly recommend his books on Babesia/Anaplasma/Ehrlichia and Bartonella/Mycoplasma.
He explains exactly what each organism does in the body - and how each of his suggested herbs work. Buhner's books are highly scientific, yet the protocol sections are easy to understand.
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