I start to doubt.

1. Many lymies (me included) notice that they don't catch colds or the flu anymore although they are surrounded by ill people.

2. I read somewhere that BB is very clever and escapes the immune system by either hiding or disguising (forgot the details).

What if our immune system is so alarmed by the presence of BB that it's working overtime and killing all kind of other pathogens? This would mean our immune system is working very well - better than other people's - and it's not the problem. It would mean that the immune system in general just cannot control BB.

But why do some people get very ill from Lyme and others don't?

A fellow Lymie who was quite ill with Lyme for several years told me how she got well. She got 3 weeks of IV Rocephin and a few weeks only of orals, over a time frame of 4-5 years. She didn't get well from this treatment.

Then she found a doctor who told her that our bodys cannot get rid of the neurotoxins by themselves. She started detoxing only (no more abx or other meds) by using Cholestyramine and - not at the same time - healing earth (similar to bentonite clay but not from volcanic origin. It is loess.) She also took various vitamins. After 9 months she was symptom free.

What if some people's bodys have the ability to get rid of the toxins by themselves and so they don't get sick?

And what if we Lymies don't have this ability or only to a very limited degree? And we are recycling our toxins over and over again and therefore, it takes us forever to get well?

What do you think?

BTW, since 10 days I'm trying the healing earth (internal use). Curious if I will improve.

Gabrielle

antibiotics are used to eradciate bacteria that the immune system, can either not adequately respond to or are being evaded by the bacteria.

the immune system is made up of two systems the innate immune system, which kills bacteria on site (like a splinter in your big toe) and the adaptive immune system which is made up of b cells, t cells and natural killer cells.

immune systems are not equal, different people's immune systems work at different levels, this is partly genetic and partly acquired (e.g. past exposure to viral and bacterial pathogens).

the problem with chronic lyme is that it seems to evade the adaptive immune systema and b and t cells are not activated. hence the necessary antibodies are not made.

Keep having flu like symptoms over and over and never get it out of our systems, like you said cause we are toxic.

Primal defense is helpful to me, and has helped me in many ways, but only to a certain extent. I need more than this at this point, but like you said, when the bacterial levels get down and we are less toxic, a little help goes a long way.

I think a cold is when you pick your nose and rub your eye and get the bacteria and viruses in your sinuses and or lungs.

Seems there's so much more we don't know than we do.

Does anyone else get their Immunoglobulins read?

IgM, IgG, IgA?

These are componemts of the immune system (serum tests, not Western Blot, I mean)

My son and I, both with very severe sympyoms, untreated..had IgM readings on the low end of "normal"..as though the immune system was somewhat depressed with the infections, this pre-treatment.

Then, over the course of treatment with sggressive abx including IV..

Our IgM's both lowered, steadily..until well below normal.

Low IgM is seen in HIV and is cited in literature to go down with chronic infection, and also with immonosupressive therapies such as steroids and methotrexate.

The abx are then (seems to me) doing the work, so the immune system thinks it can "rest".

The questions to my mind then are: how much do infections and co-onfections disable the immune system..to what extent do abx disable it..how does one "re-engage" it..and then..

how good is Bb at evading a functioning immune system..and why...

Mo

The problem then is for the doctor to help wake up the immune system so that it starts to kick in. Sometimes it kicks in too fast and literally goes into overdrive. That's where a smart physician comes in trying to avoid this. Slowly releasing some of the toxicity, so that the system can then deal with it, not overload the organs, which is when everything goes haywire.

We all had a functioning immune system until the ongoing load of toxins became too much. I am now 73 years old. I did not have a sore throat or cold since I was in my 30s, but appeared very healthy otherwise except for years of on-and-off depression. When I got bit by a tick, all hell broke loose. It took we a couple of months to figure out that I was really sick ---- so sick I got morphine for the pain.

I stored everything even more. It is very healthy to get an annual cold and not reach then for the suppressants that so many people do.

But cured I was not by simply antibiotics for months on end, but by first seeing to it that all the toxins were slowly released out of my system after removing the centers of infection, mainly in my mouth due to heavy metals, root canals, cavitations, etc.

Once that was done, I slowly moved toward clearing Lyme and all the accumulated viruses, parasites, fungi (none of which I knew I had) step by step, first one then the other, always on guard not to stress the system. ART is a great tool for this and I attribute our regaining our health to strictly this method of gradually clearing the body of all toxicity of every sort.

Antibiotics, a lot of different therapies, natural substances (a long list of them) and most of all treatment with the microcurrent and rife and other frequency machine (Klinghardt Matrix Therapy - KMT22) that I posted about recently. It helped us immensely, because it did not necessitate running to the doctor all the time. But we were able to treat ourselves as often as we liked. No, it is not a Rife machine. If you are interested in it, look up that post of a couple of weeks ago.

The immune system will take on Lyme when you take the other loads off. That's how we got well. And that's how my doctor treats every chronic disease - because they all start out the same way - with tons of toxins that overload and kill the best engine!

It really works. Both my husband and I are now fine.

you can also take a simple test to check your C3D circulating immune complex. an increase in C3D is indicative of one of two things :

1. autoimmune disease (which can be ruled out by ANA, RA and CRP).

2. ongoing, persistent infection, if your C3D is elevated and you have no positive tests for autoimmune diseases.

the ongoing infection, lyme in our case, bypasses the immune process of sterilization (think chicken pox) and becomes chronic.

ultimately the immune defenses are overwhelmed and the result is a profound state of immunosuppression, which also leaves the patient open to other opportunistic infections.

(since i've had lyme i've had the flu, chicken pox and three severe sinus infections...)

but then again your immune system markers can be normal and operating correctly but still disfunction. this is where it seems neuro or endotoxins take place.

as for the relationship of immune system and toxins i have no clear idea at all but i believe the problem is that our immune system "bites off more than it can chew"

the battle between the comprehensive immune system and the bacterium sets off a production of cytokines (molecules that cells use to communicate) which in turn create chemicals (toxins) which can cause inflammation.

and when the battle is being persistently lost it can lead to chronic inflammation, a.k.a. chronic toxicity.

i think this is pretty much what trevor marshall is talking about, from what i can gather.

Zipzip: Thanks for the explanation the easy way. Couldn't understand the complicated way, anyway

Mlkeen: ``It is my understanding that when you get rid of the neuotoxins our immune system is better able to function.''
This is a good point. Makes sense to me.

Mo and zipzip: I really should get my Immunoglobulins read. Next time I go for bloodwork I hope I remember it.

Gigi: What I don't understand is: when the immune system sleeps and I don't get a flu because of that, why do I get ill from Lyme? In my feeling, when my IS sleeps, I should get ANY disease. But getting one and not the other one that is beyond my understanding.

BTW, I'm taking your advices seriously. I had only one root canal but got the tooth extracted already 7 years ago. Went to a biological dentist who confirmed that I have no cavitations or any other problems. Had my amalgams taken out 10 years ago. The bad side here is that my dentist made a mess out of it and neither protected me nor herself.

I also went to a doctor who is doing chelation (a variant of the Klinghardt protocol). I'm still taking drops of various plants (too lazy to look up the English terms) but I'm not at the cilantro stage, yet. As I'm not too happy with her, I'll call somebody from the reference list in Dr. Klinghardts Website after X-mas. Will ask if she's doing ART.

Thanks again to all of you.

Gigi: What I don't understand is: when the immune system sleeps and I don't get a flu because of that, why do I get ill from Lyme? In my feeling, when my IS sleeps, I should get ANY disease. But getting one and not the other one that is beyond my understanding.

GiGi says:

Gabrielle, your immune system still is asleep even though you got the Lyme. I had the same question to Dr. Klinghardt when this happened to me. His answer, in a German saying, translated: the tick bite was the straw that broke the camel's back!

Gabrielle, My immune system was still not functional, with the added problem that now the Autonomic Nervous System is so affected that the body starts to react to all and everything around us in a very abnormal way:
multiple chemical sensitivities, can't stand going to the stores, vibrate when standing next to the fridge or near metal, vibrate almost anywhere day or night, can't stand bright light, can't stand noise, can'd stand heat or cold --- all of these are regulated by the Autonomic Nervous System which at that time just is dysfunctional because the body cannot handle the toxic loads.

ART ist just that tool to decipher which remedy or medication will help put the ANS
(Autonomic Nervous System) at ease. Only then will the body start going into a healing mode. Dr. Klinghardt wrote his doctoral thesis on the Autonomic Nervous System and that's what he understands totally and thus developed his methods over the years. When the autonomics respond properly, the sympathetics and parasympathetics balanced, then we can start to heal -- the immune system starts to kick in and to the fight for us instead of us.

We carry all the good and bad bacteria in us, all the viruses, many parasites, as long as the load is normal. Many parasites are necessary. My husband even started to show TB while he had Lyme/Parkinson. That means that the body could not even handle these dormant TB baillus any longer and they started to take over trying to do their thing.

The same with EB virus, all the herpes viruses: We all carry them normally, but in a load the immune system knows how to handle. If the load becomes too heavy, the whole system breaks down. That's what happens to us when we are exposed to Lyme and we start to fall apart, while millions of people also are exposed to Lyme, but their own immune system can still handle it.

So it often goes, the older one gets, the more toxins we have taken on over a lifetime living in the world as it is today, we get ill ---- most the time it's called aging.

The problem with heavy metals, they load up not only the joints, the connective tissue, so that one could just say "well, I have arthritis, etc." but the metals move into the brain and do untold damage. They tend to destroy the blood-brain barrier, the metals affect the pituitary/hormone production and we are in big trouble as time goes on.

Gabrielle says:

had only one root canal but got the tooth extracted already 7 years ago. Went to a biological dentist who confirmed that I have no cavitations or any other problems. Had my amalgams taken out 10 years ago. The bad side here is that my dentist made a mess out of it and neither protected me nor herself.

GiGi says:

Gabrielle, I am no doctor, just learned a lot over the last few years, and I am in constant contact with patients that go through the same thing my husband did and I did.

Of course, there are many lab tests as someone mentions above. Most of the time the result is "either - or, or maybe" and you still do not know how to attack the problem. It's a start. I prefer ART (Autonomic Response Testing) because it costs a lot less and tells me the problem in seconds and it also helps to pick the proper medication for the problem.

GiGi says:

If I were you, I would look for the best dentist to take another look for cavitations. The average DDS is not capable - just does not see them on the x-ray even though they are staring him/her in the face. There are a few in Germany that can, and then of course a capable ART practitioner can also find the cavitations. I know some good ones, because I meet them at the seminars where they get updated on things that work better, things Dr. K. has tried in practice that work.

Gabrielle says:

I also went to a doctor who is doing chelation (a variant of the Klinghardt protocol). I'm still taking drops of various plants (too lazy to look up the English terms) but I'm not at the cilantro stage, yet. As I'm not too happy with her, I'll call somebody from the reference list in Dr. Klinghardts Website after X-mas. Will ask if she's doing ART.

GiGi says:

Anyone listed as a therapist on the Klinghardt Institute for Neurobiology in Germany does ART. The are certified and have to have done many courses. I know many of them and some of them are great, but hard to get into.

In short: My advice is to unload the body of toxins that were there before Lyme. Usually, they originate in the mouth.

Take care.

I've used Primal Defense before as well and like lymiecanuck it has limited result for me as well. I've tried several others products which was also a waste. I'm recently using a product called agaricus from the podi patch company (it's a free gift with my order) and it is absolutely fantastic. This product is an immune system booster and I can feel the difference in my body. I had my bloodwork done by a procedure called Live Blood Analysis and it showed my white blood cells increase tremendously from before and after 2 months of using agaricus.

I feel there is something valuable here for everyone to check out.

GiGi: Do you happen to know a good ART practitioner in or around Munich?

Could all patients with severe problems also have this gene? We also have to remove it slowly. She can't tolerate the strength needed with CSM, so we use Welchol.

And I apologize, I am brain dead and can't remember what the test was..I need some sleep after the late night in Reading. Only my bladder is fully awake. If anyone is interested, email me and I will try to look it up. If I can figure out the Dr's info and hand writing.

Right off, there is a good one in Isen and a fabulous one in Augsburg. Some of them come overhere and treat patients.

Also would like to alert you to look into
Rechtsregulat. It is a fabulous liquid and made and available in Germany. We use it - it addresses many, many problems.
Buy yourself the booklet at a pharmacy called "Damit muessen Sie jetzt leben". They will order it for you. Read it.
The website does not nearly tell enough about it, www.Kaskadenfermentation.de.

Also the EM, which is a different product, is available in Germany. I have some addresses. E-mail me if you want.

LymeLaura, Lyme puts out neurotoxins. Root canals can put out neurotoxins and usually do. Either create neurosymptoms. And neurosymptoms are all alike - whether from root canals or Lyme Disease, or any other disease.

You might want to read some of my posts.