LymeNet Home LymeNet Home Page LymeNet Flash Discussion LymeNet Support Group Database LymeNet Literature Library LymeNet Legal Resources LymeNet Medical & Scientific Abstract Database LymeNet Newsletter Home Page LymeNet Recommended Books LymeNet Tick Pictures Search The LymeNet Site LymeNet Links LymeNet Frequently Asked Questions About The Lyme Disease Network LymeNet Menu

LymeNet on Facebook

LymeNet on Twitter




The Lyme Disease Network receives a commission from Amazon.com for each purchase originating from this site.

When purchasing from Amazon.com, please
click here first.

Thank you.

LymeNet Flash Discussion
Dedicated to the Bachmann Family

LymeNet needs your help:
LymeNet 2020 fund drive


The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations.

LymeNet Flash Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » The spirochette photography is repeatable.

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: The spirochette photography is repeatable.
James H
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 6380

Icon 14 posted      Profile for James H     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
For those of you who are following this little science project...

I prepared a couple more slides last night to test whether this was something that could be repeated.

The answer is yes, but it is also important to obtain a sample with the highest probability of containing some of the evil little critters.

These samples were from a less active rash site, and I found items of interest to be very sparse compared to the earlier sample. Location, location, location.

I took pictures of two of them that were of the squiggly little snake form, similar to the one on the lower left:

...So if you have a target rich sample, a good microscope, and a few hours to stare into it... it is possible to see what appear to be spirochettes of some kind.

(The symptoms would be suggestive of what species they might be.)

...And this little experiment is repeatable.


Posts: 714 | From San Antonio TX | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oxygenbabe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi, I asked on your first thread, can you tell me what kind of microscope and setup you have, and where you got it?

TIA.


Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
James H
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 6380

Icon 1 posted      Profile for James H     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
O2,

It is nothing at all exotic, just a decent quality biological microscope with good optics.

It does have Phase Contrast, which makes the more translucent things easier to see, by giving them a little color around the edges.

This particular one is a Unitron model MPH made sometime in the late 1960's. I got it on ebay.

I am using an inexpensive digital eyepiece camera connected to a laptop to capture the images.

The highest power objective on the microscope is the 100x oil immersion lens, which is what I used for these pics.

I have several eyepieces with 10x to 20x magnification. The camera seems to be about equivelant to what you see with the 20x, so 100x times 20x equals about 2000x total magnification.

2000x magnification is about the practical limit for optical microscopes, because of the size of the light waves themselves.

To get more magnification you step up to electron microscopes... WAY out of my league!


Posts: 714 | From San Antonio TX | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RECIPEGIRL
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 5884

Icon 12 posted      Profile for RECIPEGIRL     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi James H,

This is fascinating. Thanks for putting these sneaky bug pictures on Lymenet. It's just amazing.

Jan


Posts: 602 | From Burleson, Texas, USA | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kam
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 3410

Icon 1 posted      Profile for kam     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
James,

When I took some of my skin when I was health and put it under a microscope we added salt to one of the slides.

I recall my cells shivering up and dying. It also seemed like they were screaming as they shrunk up.

I am wondering if you put abx on the spirochetes while on the slides if you will be able to see anything?

It seems to simple of a question to me. There has got to be more to it.

But, it would be a great way to find out which abx work and which ones don't for your brand of bacteria.


Posts: 15927 | From Became too sick to work or do household chores in 2001. | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oxygenbabe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thanx James.
Kam, that's what this guy Tony in AUstralia did, to cure himself of whatever chronic illness he had (infectious).

The rife people would do well, if they could culture spirochetes from an obvious EM rash, to see which freuencies really work--this has not been done much.


Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
James H
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 6380

Icon 1 posted      Profile for James H     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jan,

You are very welcome! Enjoy the creepy little thing's pictures.

Kam,

Good question. In this case, these are already VERY dead. First they are spread out and dried. Then they are dipped in absolute methyl alcohol, so they stay stuck to the glass. Then they are dipped in two different color dyes, rinsed, and dried again. Very dead by that time, as all of their kind should be! )

So you can't watch them die because thay are already dead.

You mentioned the effect of salt on cells. All cells have some salt. .9% salt to be exact.

If you do just the opposite, put them in water with NO salt they do just the opposite. They swell up with water and burst, spilling out any critters that may be hiding inside the cells.

The spirochettes have no such cell membrane, so the water does not destroy them. All that is left is them and some pieces of the blown up cells. Makes the little devils easier to spot!

Antibiotics kill these so slow, if you could somehow watch them while alive you would get VERY, VERY tired waiting for them to die I think.

If you found something that killed them quick it would kill you too I;m afraid. Tough little devils they are!


Posts: 714 | From San Antonio TX | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
jdj
Unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The ring form with the dark center in the middle photo, above the organism that may be a spirochete, looks like Babesia. The quality of the picture makes it hard to say for sure and also it's more likely to be Babesia when you see this form inside red blood cells, as well as the other stages of the life cycle (especially the cross which is pathonomonic).

Jamie


IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
heartsickmommy
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 6417

Icon 1 posted      Profile for heartsickmommy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
James,

Is there any method that you know of, in which you could use your equipment to perform experimental tests on 'liquid-y' stuff like saliva, mucus, etc.?

Thanks so much for sharing your experiments with us. I'm really amazed by them!


Posts: 134 | From calif. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
James H
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 6380

Icon 4 posted      Profile for James H     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jamie,

Very good observation! I was so focused on spirochettes I wasn't paying much attention to the other objects.

All the red and white cells in these pics had their membranes blown to bits by adding water, so anything that had been in a red cell is out in the open.

Maybe it is time to look at some blood smears again... a little more closely.

That'e one thing I'd rather mot find in my blood.


Posts: 714 | From San Antonio TX | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
James H
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 6380

Icon 4 posted      Profile for James H     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Heartsickmommy,

They are hard to find even if you have really good sample with a concentration of them.

Fluids such as saliva might contain a few (or not), but they would be very sparse unless there was some serious disease activity going on at the time.

To illustrate what it is like finding things on a slide...

Picture the slide as a football field, grass and all. Now have someone scatter a few coins randomly about on it. If you walked around on the field for awhile you might find a few of them.

Now try it while looking through the cardboard tube from a paper towell roll...
That is about how much of the slide you can see through the eyepiece of a microscope at one time.

In the case of looking for 'keets in saliva... Imagine you are looking for a single penny or a button off your shirt on the same football field while looking through a cardboard tube.

You would probably see zillions and zillions of the usual mouth bacteria, though.

I don't have any really specialized equipment by the way, just a microscope.

Anybody could do this.

[This message has been edited by James H (edited 18 December 2004).]


Posts: 714 | From San Antonio TX | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
tabbytamer
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3159

Icon 1 posted      Profile for tabbytamer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If looking for Babs, isn't there some sort of dye used by the labs?

It would be very neat if somehow we could see such critters with our own microscopes. I, for one, wouldn't mind spending hours looking at a smear. Labs don't always have the manpower to spend that much time on one sample.


Posts: 2098 | From San Diego, CA, USA | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
James H
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 6380

Icon 1 posted      Profile for James H     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Tabbytamer,

Yes. Wrights stain or Giemsa are common ones. I used "Hemal Stain" (probably a brand name) from a local science supply. It is supposed to be the same thing, but doesn't take as long.

You are right about labs not being able to take that kind of time. This would not be considered practical in a production environment.


Posts: 714 | From San Antonio TX | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
daystar1952
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3255

Icon 1 posted      Profile for daystar1952     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
These photos look more to me like the morgellon's disease fibers that are found in skin lesions. Many of the people with Morgellon's have lyme also.

I missed any previous posts on this so I don't know if this was mentioned already

Margie T


Posts: 1176 | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
James H
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 6380

Icon 1 posted      Profile for James H     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Margie,

Yes, there is a resemblence. These are many times smaller though, bacterial in size and captured at 2000x magnification.

The colors are not natural, the specimens are stained.

The Morgellon's photos I could find were mostly 10x to 60x.

Thankfully I haven't had any Morgellon's symptome, that is one strange disease!


Posts: 714 | From San Antonio TX | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code� is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | LymeNet home page | Privacy Statement

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3


The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:

The Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey
907 Pebble Creek Court, Pennington, NJ 08534 USA


| Flash Discussion | Support Groups | On-Line Library
Legal Resources | Medical Abstracts | Newsletter | Books
Pictures | Site Search | Links | Help/Questions
About LymeNet | Contact Us

© 1993-2020 The Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey, Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
Use of the LymeNet Site is subject to Terms and Conditions.