cottonbrain
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 13769
posted
Anyone know if the buhner protocol can cause dark urine?
Here's what I'm taking:
artemisinin 100mg 3x day
andrographis 600 mg 3x day
cats claw 500 mg 3x day
japanese knotweed 1500 mg 3x day
I'm not having pain or other symptoms -- just brown urine.
I did a quick google and didn't find anything scary about these herbs -- does anyone know?
thanks in advance!
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CaliforniaLyme
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posted
Dark urine is a sign of BABESIOSIS (and it can also be a sign of G6PD deficiency which can manifest the same way.)
You are either
A. herxing with Babesiosis because of the Artemisia
B. triggering a G6PD deficiency by treating with Artemisia (can be triggered by anti-malarials and not just quinines for sensitive people)
MOST likely you are simply herxing on the Artemisia and the dark urine should pass within a few days- if it DOESN'T, contact your doctor. Best wishes, Sarah
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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cottonbrain
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posted
very interesting.
i googled the G6PD -- it seems to affect mostly males (?), so I'm betting /hoping that's not my problem.
Does dark urine appear at any time with Babs, or only during treatment, anyone know?
I am also taking amoxicillin, which I just read can cause dark urine if it is causing liver failure. yikes.
but i doubt that is happening, as I don't have the other sx of liver failure.
thanks for the info!
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CaliforniaLyme
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posted
It OFTEN occurs just after beginning treatment for Babs- often the second week on Babs tx!!! But CAN occur in Babs on it's own-
Sounds like a Babs herx to me-
Yup, G6PD mostly but not all male- if African, Asian, South Asian, Mediterranean, Spanish or Jewish descent higher risk of it-
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
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posted
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I assume you are drinking plenty of water.
one possibility:
Various colored urine can also be a sign of a one of several types of porphyria. Different porphryias may relate to different hues of the urine.
As artemisinin uses the Cytochrome P-450 pathway, in a person has any of the eleven (or more) porphyrias or "secondary porphyria" it can cause excess buildup of porphyrins.
I have a couple different kinds of porphyria and have had no problems with artemisinin. However, I follow self-care guidelines for porphyria - frequent snacks, beta carotene, avoidance of other triggers, etc.
I've not experienced darkened urine from it, but someone with different kinds of porphryia might - or depending upon the level of porphyrin buildup, I suppose.
Many drugs use the C P-450 detox liver pathyway - and exposures to household chemicals, too, result in stress on that pathway.
Mol Pharmacol. 2005 Jun;67(6):1954-65. Epub 2005 Mar 10.
Antimalarial artemisinin drugs induce cytochrome P450 and MDR1 expression by activation of xenosensors pregnane X receptor and constitutive androstane receptor.
Excerpt:
In conclusion, activation of PXR and CAR and especially the resulting induction of CYP3A4 and MDR1 demonstrate that artemisinin has a higher risk of potential drug interactions than anticipated previously.
posted
If you are taking the Source Natural's brand Resveratrol, the new tablets are a different color than before and can make your urine appear reddish or orangish.
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cottonbrain
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posted
Keebler, you were posting as I was replying to California LYme.
I wonder how prevalent CAP is? I went to the link but I will re-read later when my head is clearer, as the info is all new to me
and gets pretty technical. Can you simplify?
thank you for posting the link!
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Keebler
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posted
My pleasure - hopefully that eases your mind a bit. More likely than not, that is the reason for your change in urine color.
Keep us posted on your progress with the Buhner herbs.
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Keebler
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posted
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CottonBrain - ohhhh. you ask if I can simplify. uhhh... well, it's hard for me . . .
I can hunt, copy and paste . . . and I see the connection for myself from years of dealing with liver clearance issues. But I don't have much energy or concentration to simplify - still, I'll give it a try.
The liver has to metabolize everything we eat, drink, breathe and get on our skin. That's a lot of work. some detox pathways (interstate highways, state highways, local roads) have to handle the traffic.
Actually, it's about lacking the right kind and amount of good and SPECIFIC enzymes needed - these enzymes are not available to us other than the liver manufacturing them.
Other digestive kinds of enzymes are, but not these (or not all or not right now). the best we can do is help our livers by protecting from chemical damage and helping give it what it needs to do the best it can.
- the doctor who helped me understand, used a sort of auto manufacturing story with red blood cells, heme, being the cars. I can't recall exactly, but something like this:
If a drug can only travel one set of roads, say the interstate, and your interstate is down to one lane but you push through more and more drugs that need the interstate it can clog - and excess porphyrins surround and destroy various cells.
Heme is big here, but I can't explain why.
Everyone has porphyrins but when they suffocate, clog, that can be very danger for someone has this condition. Normally, the liver makes enough of the specific enzymes to keep it all moving along. If not, that's when action needs to be taken.
Porphyria can also be latent - and not be a problem unless a particular drug is encountered.
Note: the enzymes that rise during certain liver distress are not the same enzymes that are discussed here. These are very specific and not normally tested but if so require urine, blood and stool, not just one, but all.
Still, as we are used to - if the tests are normal, that does not mean a person still might not have a type of porphyria. Unless triggered, the tests can be normal. Various shades of urine can be indicative, but not absolute. Some porphyria's don't change the urine color at all, but the stool would have indicators.
Now, if someone does not, but still has a chronic infection, a "secondary" type or "pseudo" type may ensue.
That would still be of concern if it results in too many porphyrins.
I think "having it" is not so much a concern as "having elevated porphyrins" themselves regardless of if it's genetic or exposure or infection related.
The CFIDS chronicle, years ago, had an article on what was referred to a "pseudo-porphyria" meaning the experience of it but not necessarily the genetic condition.
[ Edited to add this thought: I would never use the term "pseudo" around a doctor, though. They may think "faking it" rather than "similar" or "masked" as it's intended in this case.
The Cpn article caught my eye this past year. "Secondary" is certainly a less labeling descriptor than "pseudo" used in earlier CFIDS writings. ]
Whether treating for Cpn, or other (acute or) chronic infection(s), this should be considered.
Milk thistle, bupleurum, ligustrum . . . are just some herbs that help protect the liver. Beta Carotene and glucose can help keep the porphyrins down - and that's where the article at Cpn.org really offers some good advice.
Some herbs use the C P-450 detox pathway (as artemisinin seems to). Still, certain herbs can help the liver.
I really do very well when I take schisandra (schizandra). I was thrilled to see that it helps the C P-450 pathway in mice. I'll go with that for now.
I hope soon that medicine will find healing ways to minimize the effects of chemicals on the liver - the history of some herbs holds information for the time being.
* Male mice that received diets containing 5% schisandra berries exhibited a threefold increase in the important liver cytochrome P-450 antioxidant system (Hendrich et al., 1983). Equally important is the enhancing effect of schisandra on the status of liver mitochondria in rats (Ip et al., 1998).
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IMO . . . everyone should be aware of this for friends and family, too. I wonder if so many thousands of deaths in the hospitals each year from medicines might not have to do with the differences in patients' ability to metabolize drugs .
On the other hand, infections must be treated as quickly as possible. Infections, alone, can cause a rise in porphyrin levels.
Having infections become chronic is very hard on our livers, too, so the trick is to balance helping the liver while treating infections thoroughly and completely.
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I think I've just muddled this more. I'm sorry I just can't organize very well. And, I should warn you that very few doctors even know what porphyria is - and most of them think of the characterture (sp?) of King George III who was nuts from it. That is not always the case.
And, oh . . . forcing detox can be very dangerous for someone without the necessary enzymes.
Just like pushing through cars (chemicals from daily life, meds) . . . if some people detox too harshly or even exercise too much, the liver simply cannot handle the toxic overload that is surging through. Gentle, slow might work best for some.
Take care. Good luck.
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P.S. some drugs cause the urine to change colors and that may be no big deal - checking the literature is good; asking your doctor, etc.
B-vitamins, of course, also bring a bit of sunshine, so to speak.
Asparagus, beets . . . and food colorings, too.
Sometimes, dark urine is just a reminder to drink more water or clean up our diet and eat frequently in the right amounts.
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[ 22. January 2008, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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pamoisondelune
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I'm glad you asked---i've been wondering about darkish orangey-reddish urine for about 6 months; not all the time; not consistent; sometimes if i didn't eat and only drank water. I couldn't make sense of it. But i attributed it to Babesia, since i have other symptoms on the list.
I am on Buhner herbals, and Source Naturals Resveratrol at the high dose, also i think for about that time.
But i really suspect the Babesia , because since i started Bactrim 5 or 6 days ago, the urine really changed color, to just yellows, no oranges or reddish since starting Bactrim. I've also taken some Artemesia annua pills with a little artemisinin for a month? off and on.
Thanks for the great information!
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cottonbrain
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posted
This is such helpful information, everyone.
Keebler, thank you for your explanation -- you are congratulated on work meritorious and prodigious!
After reading your explanation, i went back to the cpn link, and things actually started to make sense.
Thanks, all!
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
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CottonBrain - I'm glad you can read it. I tried to go over it and am just dazed.
Anyway, I hope you can ask your doctor about this, especially if you read that amox. can change urine color under liver stress. It's important to check it out.
And, you are to be congratulated for having read all this.
I think we'd all rather be doing other things, but we purservere (sp?) . . Phonics helps sometimes, not all the time, though.
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