lymebytes
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11830
posted
I have been doing some study on the macrolides and their ability to kill Bartonella.
My ILADS LLMD insisted 2 years ago it could kill Bart. Since then I have had many resist this theory, so I decided to study as much as I could find.
I have come across MANY abstracts at pubmed (too many links to list here but I have saved them all) if you enter into the search clarithromycin bartonella or Azithromycin bartonella (I believe were my entries) you wil find many abstracts that show these two medications have shown effective against Bartonella over and over.
Also Biaxin eliminated Ehrlichia HGE in me, but oddly not HME.
I asked a different LLMD if this was possible and his response, "Most abx have the ability (if gram neg/gram pos abx) to hit co-infections to a degree, but I prefer Rifampin for HME and Bart".
I know many do not agree about the macrolides, but I believe it eliminated Bart and HGE in me.
I have been on Biaxin (exactly the same as erythromycin only modified to be easier on the stomach - see wikipedia for this info)
I was tested over and over and over for Bart and watched titers consistently drop over 1.5 years until normal. I used Biaxin.
I myself have doubted that biaxin may have cured bart...but it seems more plausible the more I read.
This link at Canlyme (several paragraphs downs reads: "Whether typical cat-scratch disease needs treatment is "subject to debate," Dr. Welch says. If an antibiotic is used, azithromycin is the first choice. Other manifestations of B. henselae or B. quintana can be treated with erythromycin or doxycycline. Beta-lactams are largely ineffective. "In vitro tests don't predict clinical response," Dr. Welch says".
I have been on Amoxi/biaxin and Bicillin/Biaxin during the last 2 years mostly. I have stopped Bicillin to start Doxy/Biaxin to get the HME that persists.
Oddly I have found stopping Bicillin - to return many symptoms I thought were Bart, like foot pain and shin pain....go figure.
Just thought I'd show you in case you thought your were out of options.
Hoosiers51
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15759
posted
I like the fact that you posted your experiences and opinions about what helped you, because hopefully someone will benefit from this info.
I just want to bring something up though...there may be different sub-species or whatever...."bartonella like organisms" as some doctors call it. And, we don't know if what works for certain strains of bartonella is what works for others.
Also, macrolides MAY have been tested in those abstracts for people whose bartonella was in it's earlier stages, though I did not read the studies, so I don't know. That quote just made it sound like macrolides were more of an immediate response to a new bart infection.
When it comes down to it though, they worked for you, and that's fabulous! So congrats. Also, what is HGE and HME?
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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Rianna
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11038
posted
I think you may be very right on this one.
I have bad bart symptoms and when I went on Ketek the bart symptoms came out with avengence, I therefore truly beleive that Ketek kills bart and that is a macrolide and I did very well on Zithromax too.
So is that why most good LLMD's always do Zith with Rifampin with great success - Double Bubble?
lymebytes
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11830
posted
Hoosiers - Ehrlichia HGE and Ehrilichia HME - just 2 different strains of Ehrlichia.
Rianna - That is great and from what I have studied absolutely likely.
I am aware of the different strains of Bart - and even asked (ILADS ex pres) about all of these BLO's. He rolled his eyes and commented still the most common is bartonella henselae followed by a distant quintana.
The same LLMD thought the new book of all these new Bart strains apparently is pushing it, unless of course you are a world traveler picking up odd strains of bart. (Don't beat me up please...he said it! )
Another LLMD said symptoms of Bart so overlap with Lyme it is next to impossible to know.
I had to agree with that...because bicillin is a lyme killer, but I have foot pain and shin pain back since stopping..so all along those have apparently been lyme symptoms not bart symptoms! I am tempted to start bicillin again to get rid of the foot and shin pain.
I knew I felt differently FOR SURE, with many wild neuro symptoms gone. But Lyme is still big in me and so is ehrlichia. I am learning quite well what is Lyme..and many LD symptoms I thought were bart, weren't bart at all, because they vanish with lyme abx. Bart was horrible and took a long time on Biaxin, not some overnight thing, that is for sure.
Pubmed mentioned quite a few Bart strains I had never heard of, killed by the macrolides.
It makes me wonder how many think they have bart symptoms and really they are LD symptoms...they are very much alike, the symptoms list for both totally overlap.
CD57
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11749
posted
Interesting, Lymebytes. I know who your LLMD is (Dr S, right?). Does he think Biaxin in combo with something else gets bart; ie; Biaxin/omnicef or something? I'll ask my LLMD (Dr H) at next visit about this. I, interestingly, have always had "bart" type herxes on Bicillin--foot and shin pain. My main LD die-off symptoms from Bicillin (the next day) are muscular-skeletal, and are particularly foot and shin pain. It's always been this way for me. My doc goes on symptoms, not tests, so we don't really have a gauge as to what I'm infected with (other than Lyme). I do think he has an uncanny ability to tell what is currently bothering me (ie; which co, etc).
I did do 9 months of Rifampin+doxy with a little mino, and it did not eradicate bart. (Or maybe it did?) It's really hard to tell. One thing that has hugely improved for me: the anxiety stuff, which was just terrible last summer, and a lot of sleep issues. Also I had an itchy rash on the back of my thighs and swollen eyes. I know a lot of this is related to bart. I never had much of the GI stuff so don't know about that. I still have some foot pain and occasionally after the shots, the shin bone pain. Lyme or bart? Don't know.
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Hoosiers51
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15759
posted
I want to clarify something I said above.....
I didn't mean to sound so doubtful, because I do absolutely believe that Zithro (and thus, it is likely also Biaxin) hit the Bartonella.
I believe this because I am currently on Zithromax with Mepron for babesia, but have felt some Bart herxes!!!! (or at least I think I have) So I do I want to say, I believe it helps it. I am just not sure if it will eradicate MY bartonella (which actually is bartonella hensalae, the common one)
I think I was more saying I don't know if it is the solution for everyone. I took LONG courses of Biaxin and Zithro (even together! don't know what the heck my doc was thinking....oh wait, he wasn't) and saw no progress at all.
That could be because my Lyme and Babesia weren't gone though!!!! So I am definitely not a good gauge of what works.
Best of luck, everyone!
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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Rianna
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11038
posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ByronSBell 2007: [QB] If you really want to slam bart....IV VANCOMYCIN + Heprin
Your vancomycin Herx's are probably from Lyme die off as vancomycin is a Gram Positive Antibiotic - Bart is a Gram Negative bacteria.
Interestingly 3rd generation cephlasporins Ceftriaxone and Ceftin IV were both designed for gram Negative bacteria although I rarely see people mention being on this with Rifampin (also for Gram Negative) My LLMD has me on this combo IV Ceftriaxone with IV Rifampicin for Bart
quote:Originally posted by Rianna: [QUOTE]Originally posted by ByronSBell 2007: [QB] If you really want to slam bart....IV VANCOMYCIN + Heprin
Your vancomycin Herx's are probably from Lyme die off as vancomycin is a Gram Positive Antibiotic - Bart is a Gram Negative bacteria.
Interestingly 3rd generation cephlasporins Ceftriaxone and Ceftin IV were both designed for gram Negative bacteria although I rarely see people mention being on this with Rifampin (also for Gram Negative) My LLMD has me on this combo IV Ceftriaxone with IV Rifampicin for Bart
Rianna
Vanco is showing to be one of the most effective antibiotics for lyme and bartonella. Heparin plays a big role in it too.
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I am tempted to start bicillin again to get rid of the foot and shin pain. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Does he think Biaxin in combo with something else gets bart; ie; Biaxin/omnicef or something?
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