We all know Lyme patients need magnesium supplement. However, according to Dr. B's guideline, oral magnesium (Mag-Tab SR) is the best. But while I was reading Dr. K's article, he says that Mag. should be in IV or IM form and oral form feeds the spirocheles.
So what are we saying?
Posts: 822 | From midwest | Registered: Apr 2009
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losferwrds
Unregistered
posted
Welcome to the lyme conundrum, mag is needed mag feeds bugs Vit D is needed Vit D feeds bugs and is steroid, good luck finding and answer, if ya feel better use it.
There is no answer that I can't find that says taking or not taking mag pr d makes you better. I find most suppliments a waste of money, find mag rich foods and get alot of sun.
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gemofnj
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i take a magnesium supplement 2 x a day. for me that is sufficient.
i think it depends on each individual and the severity of the lyme and co's.
always check with you doctor.
Posts: 1127 | From atlantic city, nj | Registered: May 2008
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posted
Yes, magnesium does feed the spirochetes, in a way, but the spirochete's consumption of our body's store of magnesium is why most Lyme pts are so mag deficient in the first place!
My magnesium deficency was so severe when I first started seeing my last LLMD that he was talking about putting me on IV mag--and this was the same doctor who recommends Magtab SR so highly.
I decided to try taking the Magtab supplements before resorting to IV, and they were more than sufficient. The improvement was nearly miraculous.
If you are concerned about oral magnesium making your Lyme worse by "feeding it," I think you can put those fears to rest. That's my experience and my opinion, anyway.
Posts: 962 | From Charleston | Registered: Jan 2002
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I would ask my llmd except that he seems to think along the line as losferwrds that most supplements are waste of money. He said that in his 30 years treating Lyme disease, he found little evidence that supplement makes any difference.
He does give my wife B-12 shots once every two weeks, and he recommends probiotic and thinks it is essential. He highly recommend good quality food source.
Posts: 822 | From midwest | Registered: Apr 2009
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posted
That's kind of a ridiculous statement by Dr. K that oral magnesium would feed spirochetes, unless he's only referring to spirochetes in the digestive tract. Otherwise the magnesium will end up in your blood then body tissues just the same as IV or trans dermal, only with oral it hits the stomach first.
Posts: 499 | From Indiana | Registered: Oct 2007
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sutherngrl
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Well if the spirochetes are eating away at your magnesium anyway; but you are in the process of killing them, why not re-supply your body of magnesium in the process. Your body needs the magnesium to function.
It is all very confusing!
Posts: 4035 | From Mississippi | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
pryorka - When I was reading Dr. K article, I thought about the same thing.
sutherngrl - that makes sense to me. Mag starvation will likely kill your own body before killing spirochetes.
Posts: 822 | From midwest | Registered: Apr 2009
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posted
So can we take Mag. with the abx?
Posts: 822 | From midwest | Registered: Apr 2009
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Bugg
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posted
I love MagTabSr...couldn't function without it....I've also done IVs of Mag and IMs of mag...(for many, however, the IV and IM route isn't feasible) If you do any IVs in the future, make sure that you don't do any more than 1 gram of mag an hour or you will renally waste it (I learned this from a nephrologist that I saw about the IVs)....I did 1 gram an hour over 4 hours....
As you will read in any medical literature, magnesium is essential for proper endocrine and metabolic and mitochondrial function....
Posts: 1155 | From Southeast | Registered: Oct 2005
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It is the 11th most abundant element in the human body, and its ions are essential for proper function of all our body cells. Many enzymes cannot function properly without Mg.
It is also established that Lyme significantly depletes your Mg. Supplements are very important if you're deficient!
I think IV Mg is great if your deficiency is severe and you have the means to go that route, but oral supplements CAN be almost as good, if you take the right kind. Most Mg supplements truly are a waste just as wtl's LLMD said, but MagTab SR is an exception.
MagTab SR is compounded differently than any of the supplements you'd find at your local drugstore or health food store. Dr. B once gave me handouts showing the dramatic difference in how your body absorbs the different supplements. If I can find it, I'll post it.
Before starting MagTabs, when my deficiency was so severe, I would tremble like a Parkinsons pt. When my LLMD would take my arm and try to get me to slowly extend it by straightening my elbow it would jerk like it was grinding through gears--my doctor called it "the cogwheel effect."
I urge you to just give it a try. I'm sure you will find no reason to regret it, and might see tremendous benefit, depending on the severity of your deficiency.
Posts: 962 | From Charleston | Registered: Jan 2002
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I am having a hard time locating a store for Mag Tab SR here, not at Walmart for sure. Do you get it from online? And do you take it with your abx?
Posts: 822 | From midwest | Registered: Apr 2009
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Dawn in VA
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posted
You can take it while you're treating with abx, but not within 2 hours of taking your dose.
-------------------- (The ole disclaimer: I'm not a doctor.) Posts: 1349 | From VA | Registered: Jul 2006
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If so it says sustained release over 12h. -Kinda means you not able to use tetracyclines while on it (like doxy).
Posts: 856 | From MA | Registered: Jul 2009
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posted
Some Walmarts stock MagTabs, but keep them behind the counter, where you have to ask the pharmacist for them. If they don't stock them, I have gotten MagTabs by asking the pharmacist at Walmart to order them. They've always been very cooperative about it.
You can also order them directly from the manufacturer, who is Niche Pharmaceuticals.
You can order then online by going to www.niche-inc.com. You can also order by phone if you prefer. Their number is 800-677-0355.
As far as taking then with abx, it is preferable to space them a couple of hours apart if you can. My LLMD told me not to worry about it, though. He told me to take them whenever it was convenient for me, instead of making myself crazy trying to schedule taking so many pills at different times.
Posts: 962 | From Charleston | Registered: Jan 2002
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ping
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posted
I still think transdermal Mag (MgCl) is the best thing since sliced bread. I also agree with the doc who said that most supps are a waste of money, with possible exceptions of O3's and some of the B's and C's, not to mention the fact that many might be allergic to them (according to Dr. K.).
MgCl costs a bit more, but I don't think it "feeds" Bb and you get the effects in 10 minutes and can wash it off after that. Be sure to dilute it with at least 50% H2O or it stings.
ping "We are more than containers for Lyme"
-------------------- ping "We are more than containers for Lyme" Posts: 1302 | From Back in TX again | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
coltman - I think that's the one.. But directly ordering from the manufacturer will be cheaper, according to the site you provided.
Maryland Mom - Thanks again. I will call Walmart to see if they have any behind counter or order.
ping - I thought in Dr. B's guideline he says that MgCl is no good because our body cannot absorb it.
Posts: 822 | From midwest | Registered: Apr 2009
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ping
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posted
I don't completely agree with Dr. B.'s guidelines, nor do I live strictly by his info. You ask another doc and they say different...Blah, blah... Everyone has a different take.
In 10 minutes, I can feel the effects of the MgCl and although I'm sure that the body doesn't absorb every bit of any supp that used, some of it is most definitely being used.
Best of luck whatever you choose to do.
ping "We are more than containers for Lyme"
P.S. - I don't use MgCl every day and when I first started tx 7 years ago, I did take plain old ordinary oral CaMgK and it stopped the twitches, etc.
-------------------- ping "We are more than containers for Lyme" Posts: 1302 | From Back in TX again | Registered: Mar 2005
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sutherngrl
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Well I don't completely agree with Dr B's guidelines either, in many ways. I don't believe there can be a set dosage of antibiotics that suits everyone.
And every doctor has a different opinion whether it be a regular GP or a LLMD. I actually prefer a LLMD that has his own opinions not based strictly on Dr B's guidelines. I want to be treated as an individual, not like every one else.
Sorry I got off the subject. I take magnesium, not a special kind, and I have no idea if it works. But it does seem like you would have to absorb some amount of it though. However, I will look into these other types of mag.
Posts: 4035 | From Mississippi | Registered: Jul 2008
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ping
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posted
sutherngrl,
If what you're doing works for you, it's my hope that you don't waste your money trying all sorts of others; going from one to another. Lyme is expensive enough.
I've been done with tx now over a year (probably close to 1.5 yrs) and I'm personally convinced that some pts are taking so many supps, the body can clear itself. "Muddying up the waters", if you will.
ping "We are more than containers for Lyme"
-------------------- ping "We are more than containers for Lyme" Posts: 1302 | From Back in TX again | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
ping - I hope my question did not sound rude to you. I am simply confused, as you can tell.
What you said though makes perfect sense.
Posts: 822 | From midwest | Registered: Apr 2009
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sutherngrl
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posted
Ping, I'm not a supplement junkie or anything. I even stop supplements periodically to give my body a break. I take breaks from antibiotics too. I know what you mean about muddying up the waters. It makes total sense to me.
Posts: 4035 | From Mississippi | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
I didn't get to read all of these but we take mag when we needed it around here. Giving it to my son lately because of his leg weakness.
One thing is that his abx says not to take mag or a few other supps within 2 hrs of taking the abx.
So watch out for that too.
-------------------- My lyme disease blog: http://lymetimes3.blogspot.com/ One BIG Lyme family! I tested CDC + 10/08 My mom Igenex + 11/08 & My brother Igenex + 4/09, My 2 boys some + & IND bands, clinical diagnosis 3/09 (youngest has Aspergers too) Posts: 470 | From Painesville, Ohio | Registered: Mar 2009
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ping
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posted
wtl,
I did not think you were being rude at all and I completely understand your confusion; been there, done that and still do it, on occasion.
sutherngrl,
I agree; it's about the only way to make it through the nightmare.
Sincerely wish everyone success. Lyme is such a bloody drag.
ping "We are more than containers for Lyme"
-------------------- ping "We are more than containers for Lyme" Posts: 1302 | From Back in TX again | Registered: Mar 2005
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TerryK
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posted
ping - what transdermal mag do you recommend - any particular product?
What I can't figure out is why transdermal and injection would be any different than oral in terms of availablility to the spirochete. Anyone know?
Dr. K's statement "Common deficiencies in Lyme: magnesium: has to be given transdermal or via injection. Oral Magnesium feeds spirochetes"
Taking general supplements just because they are supposed to help will not be very helpful but getting the correct supplements for your specific needs can be very helpful. I've proven this to myself many times over the past 2+ decades.
Muscle testing is very useful in getting the correct supplements but I am not trying to convince anyone, just wanted to convey my own experience. To each his own.
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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ping
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posted
You know what, Terry, now that you ask, I need to check when I get home, but I think it's DermaMag. Google it and see what you find. I'll confirm tomorrow before leaving town.
ping "We are more than containers for Lyme"
-------------------- ping "We are more than containers for Lyme" Posts: 1302 | From Back in TX again | Registered: Mar 2005
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TerryK
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posted
Chuck, I agree with you. Just because the pathogen needs the same nutrient doesn't mean that we should let ourselves become deficient. That said, it may not apply to all nutrients or all pathogens. Babesia and iron may be an exception but I'm not sure about that.
Dr. K usually has very sound reasons for his approach. I wish I knew what it was in this case. I may bring up the other thread with Dr. K's info in it and ask Scott. He might know what is behind Dr. K's thinking.
I suspect it may have something to do with intracellular magnesuim vs tissue but then that doesn't make total sense to me because I've read that Bb is intracellular. Plus, I'm not sure of exactly where oral magnesium ends up VS other, more absorbable forms.
Wow Chuck!!! So glad to hear that you finally got the correct diagnosis but very sad that you've had to suffer through years of illness.
I know someone else who was told by Steere that they had adequate treatment for lyme and now they have "fibromyalgia". She suffered for almost 20 years. After a few years of treatment her quality of life is hugely better. I hope you derive the same phenomenal benefits with treatment.
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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I hope they can finally figure out what's wrong and put you on the right path to recovery. It must be a drag on your life for all these years.
I am slowly getting used to the phrase "it still remains unclear". It just seems like there are so many unknowns to this illness. I am all for experiment, but boy, when it comes to using your own body for that experiment, it's scary.
Posts: 822 | From midwest | Registered: Apr 2009
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timaca
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Member # 6911
posted
Thanks for the article on Mg and the immune system. I figured out I was Mg deficient recently. I had gotten severe foot spasms and leg cramps. A modest dose of Mg took those away (and also took away my restless legs, and jumpy heart). I'm tinkering with a dose between 400-500 mg, trying to find a dose that keeps the symptoms at bay and doesn't make me feel like a rag doll.
I was clearly Mg deficient, since taking a moderate dose took away some pretty severe symptoms. Here's a couple of articles you might enjoy:
Best, Timaca
Posts: 2872 | From above 7,000 ft in a pine forest | Registered: Feb 2005
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gwb
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posted
I take 400-600 mg of Magnesium Malate (tablets). Is that acceptable or am I taking the wrong kind?
Posts: 1349 | From OK | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I have been taking Mag Glycinate by Metagenics for years. (also Cal Apatite by metagenics). It is a very absorbable mag, that's why a doc many yrs ago started me on it.
I order it online (large bottles for a decent price). The only thing, they are like horse pills, and if anyone had trouble swallowing pills, they might not work, but I swear by these 2 products.
Posts: 847 | From upstateNY | Registered: Dec 2007
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ping
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Member # 6974
posted
Hi Terry & All -
The liquid trans derm MgCl I have is from Magnesium Direct. Give it a Google and I'm sure you'll find it.
I used it as a supplement to oral (don't take oral anymore) and still do use it on occasion. Important that you start with 1/2 dose and dilute it real good, else it will burn. I pour it down my torso and rub it into my legs, lower back, etc. and let it dry, then wash it off in about 30 minutes (even though the instructions say 10).
CAUTION: If you use too much and have a tendency toward cardiac arrythmias, they will show themselves almost immediately, as well as loose stools later. Just back off the dose next time until you find a place that's beneficial to you.
This stuff works real fast. If you're Mg deficient, you're going to know it quick.
Best to All of you.
ping "We are more than containers for Lyme"
-------------------- ping "We are more than containers for Lyme" Posts: 1302 | From Back in TX again | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
By reading all this, I am going to give transdermal magnesium a try.
Anyone knows a good source to obtain magnesium oil? I googled Magnesium Direct and it came back nothing.
Posts: 822 | From midwest | Registered: Apr 2009
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ping
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Member # 6974
posted
I googled 'transdermal magnesium" and came up with it at:
ping
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posted
wtl - Hope it helps you, I really do.... Found it a really good addition to just plain, regular ol Country Life Mg supp.
Keep in touch and let us know.
ping "We are more than containers for Lyme"
-------------------- ping "We are more than containers for Lyme" Posts: 1302 | From Back in TX again | Registered: Mar 2005
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seekhelp
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posted
For those who take Mag-SR, how many tablets do you take? I'd yonder you need 10+ a day to get any decent quantity. Hell, LLMDs are recommending 2,000 mg a day. My LLMD said some patients of his take 6,000+ mg orally daily.
The amount of Mg in a Mag-SR tablet is a joke compared to other types (i.e., Mg Glycinate from Carlson Labs).
Thanks Ping for that info. I am very interested in trying the transdermal type, but I also read some mainstream articles that said that type is a joke too and hyped beyond belief. Your testimonial is great to hear. Real experience means a lot.
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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linky123
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posted
My llmd says to use malic B6 for lyme. It contains Mg.
However, recently I got tendonitis in my left heel from levaquin.
The malic B6 did not help it.
I read on one of the boards that someone had had success with Mg chelate amino acid, so I gave it a try, (200mg/day - Solaray brand), and it worked.
My tendonitis is gone. It healed up in a few weeks.
At first, I could barely walk on it.
So it must absorb well. I know the tendonitis from levaquin can become chronic, and very difficult to get rid of.
I'm sure the malic B6 is also beneficial for lyme, or the doc wouldn't prescribe it,
but the Mg chelate amino acid really did the trick on my tendonitis.
So I would say it is a good option for lyme as well. I guess it depends on the individual.
Good luck.
Linky
Posts: 2607 | From Hooterville | Registered: Apr 2009
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I was diagnosed with CFS in '87 (before it was called CFIDS!)
Later that year I read about lyme; I had almost textbook symptoms.
My Dr doubted it but gave me a blood test anyway. Came back negative, of course.
So I lived with episodes of symptoms for all those years, suspecting but never knowing.
Finally in '07 I got a positive Igenex test. Now the punchline:
2 months later I found the first tick I ever saw, chomping on me! I sent it in, it tested positive. So when my symptoms got real bad last year I had NO doubts.
So, I guess I should see if that Dr is still alive and tell him "I told you so!"
Anyway, if you have lyme, and it's treated, you could feel decades younger. Most of us who have lyme feel very old regardless of age.
Good luck
James
Posts: 872 | From New York City | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
It seems a lot of you have decided to go the route of transdermal Mg, and if it works for you, that's great.
For those of you asking more questions about MagTab SR, here is a link to a page at Niche Pharmaceutical's site that explains how this product works, how and where in the body it is absorbed, and how it is different from other forms of oral Mg supplements.
For example, to get the benefit of two MagTabs, you'd have to take eighteen tablets of Mg Gluconate. THAT'S why the dose of MagTabs is so low it is a "joke" according to seekhelp.
I know that from the way I am pushing these MagTabs, some of you might be wondering by now if I'm getting kickbacks from the manufacturer!
But I'm just urging you to consider something that I know from personal experience really works. I just ask that you educate yourselves about the quality of your supplements for the sake of your own health.
posted
Maryland Mom - thanks again. Not at all I think you are getting a kick back from passing along the information. Plus, if that happened, great. They should really reward those who pass information along.
I am going to try both ways and see what works the best. I hope I can tell though.
Posts: 822 | From midwest | Registered: Apr 2009
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ping
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Member # 6974
posted
up, as there seems to be a lot of interest.
Please note that I used both oral AND transdermal at the same time for maximum absorption. When you use transdermal, be sure to not only use it on cramped extremities, but on the stomach / abdomen also. (PLEASE DON'T FORGET TO DILUTE IT BEFORE USING!)
ping "We are more than containers for Lyme"
-------------------- ping "We are more than containers for Lyme" Posts: 1302 | From Back in TX again | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Magnesium lactate (Mag Tab) absorbs pretty decently, and better than magnesium chloride.
But I think magnesium glycinate (Albion) or magnesium orotate would be absorbed just as well or better.
Was there any particular reason Dr B recommended Mag Tab over other forms, besides absorption issues with magnesium?
Posts: 584 | From NY | Registered: Feb 2009
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Cass A
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posted
Personally, I use Natural Calm from Peter Gillham. It's a powder that goes into solution in hot water, so it is VERY bio-available! No rock-hard tablets to go thru the entire digestive system and exit in a nearly identical form!
Because it is a powder, it makes it easy to increase or decrease the dose incrementally, depending on bowel tolerance.
My LLMD recommended Taurine, which increases the absorption of Mg. Up to 5 grams a day! This also helps to get enough without causing diarrhea!!!
Since I have had huge leg and foot cramping problems--sometimes worried that the muscles would tear the tendons off the bones--magnesium supplements are not an option for me.
I'm going to look into the transdermal mag. also, and the MagTabs also, as possible options.
Best,
Cass A
Posts: 1245 | From Thousand Oaks, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
Magnesium taurate could be an option if you want to take taurine anyway. It's simply magnesium chelated with taurine.
Natural Calm is magnesium citrate, which is a step above oxide, but it's not the most bio-available form. Glycinates, orotates and probably lactate is better. Natural Calm also recently failed Consumer Lab's lead testing, by the way -- they hopefully have fixed this problem by now.
Posts: 584 | From NY | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
How can I tell what kind of magnesium I am getting? Glycinates, orotates, or lactate? Do they say that on the bottle?
Posts: 822 | From midwest | Registered: Apr 2009
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posted
It will tell you on the label. Some labels can be sneaky with dosages though, so look for elemental magnesium as the true amount per capsule/pill.
Posts: 584 | From NY | Registered: Feb 2009
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canefan17
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posted
seek,
The magnesium in SR Tablets is elemental. It's much more potent than the other Mags out there.
Don't be fooled by the 84mg thinking that's all you're getting.
Mag SR Tablets are very strong and absorb well. Hence why Dr B recommends it.
I wonder if we need to take magnesium away from other supplements. or is it just abx's?
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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posted
My concern with the mag sr tabs is it's effect on doxy since it is sustained release. Any takers?
Posts: 239 | From NC | Registered: Aug 2010
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