posted
Now GiGi - you may be skating on thin ice here
I have gotten in deeeeeep trouble here posting about the differences between real vitamins with everything God + Nature put in them and the fractions + parts that many think are real vitamins
A thread here was closed after the thread starter mentioned the "vitamins" a doc sold and I said I was going to call the doc. Apparently the PM lines almost burned up + the thread was closed by the lady that started it. Imagine ! One doc calling another
I did get chucked off one site while trying to explain the differences. That was part of my continuing ed.
seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
I see my integrative doc does seem to know what they are doing after all. THanks GiGi.
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springshowers
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 19863
posted
Thank you GIGI for posting that..
A great reminder to us all... about the vitamins and supplements we buy and use..... or should not use...
Posts: 2747 | From Unites States Of America | Registered: Apr 2009
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posted
Its quite interesting subject. - I read similar chart recently elsewhere
I do find it problematic that those "better vitamins" cost significantly more than their synthetic analogs. And I am not all that convinced they really any better ,especially considering much lower concentration of them
For example most (all ?)of clinical research you can find about vitamins and supplements is based on synthetic forms. There is plenty of data for about dosages ,effects (or lack of ) etc. But there is none for "natural ones" .
I kinda try to choose ones with more "natural" components ( if the dosages are roughly equal and price is right), but given the example in that article I would probably go with B ( albeit neither of them looks good to me - too low vit c ,contains chromium and iron - dont need those)
I am leaning towards using yeast and lecithin for cognitive supplements, whey protein for BCAA ,they are cheap ,come in bulk form and pretty close to "natural"
Posts: 856 | From MA | Registered: Jul 2009
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massman
Unregistered
posted
coltman - are you really buying into the american babble of "more is always better" BS ?
Chem engineers CANNOT measure what the always there naturally occurring co-factors do, so they say the co-factors DO nothing. (ref: my personal conversation with a member of the Linus Pauling Institute 3 years ago)
When you have ALL the cofactors then you do not need high doses of one or two factors. The body cannot HEAL without all the co-factors present.
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Chem engineers CANNOT measure what the always there naturally occurring co-factors do, so they say the co-factors DO nothing.
That part I agree with . Once they had just couple of vitamin B's. then they discovered more and more and more. There is plethora of them which are not really completely identified and researched.
There certainly needs to be a lot more investigation into nutrients
quote: When you have ALL the cofactors then you do not need high doses of one or two factors. The body cannot HEAL without all the co-factors present.
Well how do you know one particular supplement has "ALL" cofactors? That is the dilemma. With stock synthetic stuff I load on non toxic stuff at the higher end, try to avoid stuff with potential detrimental effects and try to eat veggies ( though selection at my local supermarket is rather depressing )
Ultimately with such uncertain things as supplements I have to balance it with the price and ease of management. I spent quite a bit of time building my current supplement regimen and the hardest part was coming up with the right dosages and try to encompass all synergistic supplements (like for example vit b12 alone is not that good without EFAs ,choline and lecithin)
Now all of sudden I read all synthetic stuff is no good. Well -thats not quite true as the benefits are proven (for stuff like vit B, NAC, ALCAR), after all the research and trials were done with synthetic stuff
I mean how do I know those people claims about "more natural" stuff are correct and not just a marketing gimmick (maybe even based on some logical theory , but its just speculation nevertheless)
Posts: 856 | From MA | Registered: Jul 2009
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quote:Originally posted by coltman: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by massman:
Chem engineers CANNOT measure what the always there naturally occurring co-factors do, so they say the co-factors DO nothing.
How do you think they found about "co factors"? They just didnt bother to investigate all the different compounds and their 3d molecular structure (which is relatively recent wave in chemistry for complex compounds and their interaction ) at the time. More compounds are discovered and many are found to be useful
But yes generally I agree with your notion - . Once they had just couple of vitamin B's. then they discovered more and more and more. There is plethora of them which are not really completely identified and researched.
There certainly needs to be a lot more investigation into nutrients
But if by co-factors you mean some kind of homeopathic energy bonding stuff - I don't believe in energy at this level beyond chemistry and molecular geometry. I might be wrong - but until it is documented , there is sufficient evidence and its explained exactly how to use it for practical application its use is imho dubious
quote: When you have ALL the cofactors then you do not need high doses of one or two factors. The body cannot HEAL without all the co-factors present.
Well how do you know one particular supplement has "ALL" cofactors? That is the dilemma. With stock synthetic stuff I load on non toxic stuff at the higher end, try to avoid stuff with potential detrimental effects and try to eat veggies ( though selection at my local supermarket is rather depressing )
Ultimately with such uncertain things as supplements I have to balance it with the price and ease of management. I spent quite a bit of time building my current supplement regimen and the hardest part was coming up with the right dosages and try to encompass all synergistic supplements (like for example vit b12 alone is not that good without EFAs ,choline and lecithin) while not running bankrupt at same time
Now all of sudden I read all synthetic stuff is no good. Well -thats not quite true as the benefits are proven (for stuff like vit B, NAC, ALCAR), after all the research and trials were done with synthetic stuff. And it was quite a bit of time to research the vitamins/supps as well
I mean how do I know those people claims about "more natural" stuff are correct and not just a marketing gimmick (maybe even based on some logical theory , but its just speculation nevertheless)
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massman
Unregistered
posted
How about.... lightly compressed organic veggies (some water + fiber removed) ?
Standard Process has made those since...1929
On the energy - are you thinking that we can always measure everything ? Mild radioactive isotopes injected into acupuncture meridians (energy pathways) now shows the isotopes running in the meridians.
When injected into random spots the isotopes stay where they have been injected. Good enough ?
What leaves the body when it dies ? Chemistry ? Or energy ?
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heiwalove
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6467
posted
along these lines, can anyone recommend a good vitamin C supplement? one that comes from whole foods but does NOT contain magnesium stearate?
seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
Coltman, you are one smart guy. You have intricate knowledge about so many health topics. You should've went to medical school!
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by massman: How about.... lightly compressed organic veggies (some water + fiber removed) ?
So its basically veggies? Did you mean any particular product? - I am quite interested (would allow me to dramatically increase my veggy intake ). Or did you mean something like that : http://www.harmonyhousefoods.com/
quote: On the energy - are you thinking that we can always measure everything ? Mild radioactive isotopes injected into acupuncture meridians (energy pathways) now shows the isotopes running in the meridians. When injected into random spots the isotopes stay where they have been injected. Good enough ?
Link to original source? What isotopes, how did they measure them , etc. Its interesting if true there was some fascinating article about extremely diluted solution having some EM effects, I am kinda more open about the EM interactions. But I haven't seen any follow ups or anything so I am only more open, not convinced
quote: What leaves the body when it dies ? Chemistry ? Or energy ?
You really ask this question? Lots of stuff happens .There is energy loss ( mostly from heat), change in pressure (fluids,gases), lots of chemical reactions (as cells dies and dead body reaches new chemical equilibrium) .etc.etc. If you try imply some sort of soul- I pass here, I am not into metaphysics.
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seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
Coltman, how do you explain Dr. K's belief in energy medicine? I thought he's like the king of all doctors worldwide. q
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Thanks, GiGi. VERY Informative and helpful. VERY. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by seekhelp: Coltman, how do you explain Dr. K's belief in energy medicine? I thought he's like the king of all doctors worldwide.
One year ago I would say all this is complete BS and quackery and completely dismiss it . After researching many fringe and alternative treatments , but more importantly after really digging into mainstream medicine I am not so cock sure anymore.
I still err on the side of published research with clear data -the only side its coming from now is mainstream. When I see similar quality research coming from alternative side I may consider it taking more seriously . As of now I d say I am highly skeptical , but who knows - they might be onto something, though I dont think they quite understand it and their practices are basically empirical manipulations .
Dr.K also employs some fairly mainstream methods so I dunno
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heiwalove
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6467
posted
okay, i looked up cataplex c and it looks great except i'd have to take about a million pills to equal 3000-4000 mg of vitamin C, which is what i take daily (more if i'm fighting off an acute virus). the label says 3 pills contain 17 mg of C. um, help?
posted
heiwalove - the main point is you do not need high dose fractions if you take the real (and whole) thing.
Almost everyone now calls ascorbic acid vit. C. It is a small part of real C. It has some good uses but those effects are from using the fraction like a drug.
coltman - I did not keep the source on the isotopes but will google it when I can.
Alt research ? There is lots of "research" on drugs as BigPharma funds (+ fakes) most of it. And in, IMO, their idiocy they supposedly find the "active ingredient" that does the work. I guess all the other co-factors had nothing to do for a while so they hitched a ride.
BigPharma has such deep pockets they can probably fund everything / anything they want. Alts profit margin cannot fund much research.
Studying different things the same way is like comparing apples to oranges. Or NBA players to midgets.
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