posted
My son has been under treatment for Lyme, Babesia duncani and bartonella. After missing most of 2 yrs of high school he is back for his senior year. One of the bright spots in his life is a girlfriend.
The girlfriend's aunt and mom are up in arms, fighting, arguing, not speaking to the girlfriend, etc after they read some articles on Lyme. They have decided the girl is at big risk of infection and want the relationship to end. By the way, both kids are 18.
Do you have any input or references that could give insight as to potential for transmission via saliva (ie kissing)? I know it can be transmitted sexually... but that is not the issue. I have tried to contact several doctors, but am still waiting to see if anyone gets back to me.
My son is still under treatment. Oh wow, this is a Lose-Lose situation. If the relationship ends, I know my son will be suicidal. If the girlfriend gets sick we will be so guilt-ridden.
I just feel like throwing up! Posts: 758 | From now TX | Registered: Mar 2001
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
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posted
- It's terrible that the aunt and mother are behaving in such a destructive and immature manner. I can understand parents wanting to protect their kids but the manner in which they conduct themselves can create more havoc than the situation itself.
They have a lot more educational materials to consult before jumping the gun. Too bad they aren't with the IDSA and discount lyme altogether, eh?
I'm no expert but I think this can still work out to be win-win if the two really care about each other and act both from the head and the heart.
Oh, I know it's too early to know what the future holds but if they do care for each other now and have respect, I can really see it being an excellent opportunity for all kinds of growth both academically with learning about all this science-wise and incorporating logic - as well as on all the emotional levels.
* First, what does your son's LLMD say? Are there articles the LLMD could give you that address this?
Would the young lady care to go an appointment and sit in on a short part of that in regards to this question?
As the girl is 18, I would not invite her relatives into that part of a medical appointment because of their demeanor. She can share with then what she may learn later. It would be too invasive and could become a circus if not carefully thought out.
Maybe the girl would even want to consult a LLMD by herself - just for education's sake - so that she has time and space to think clearly.
* The LDA may have materials on this matter.
This can't be the first time this question has surfaced.
I'm short on details yet I have to say that since your son is on medicine my guess is that the young lady is in better shape than with someone else who could have untreated lyme, etc. But if her parents realized that, she'd never get to go out with anyone ever again.
Feelings of love actually help our immune system work better. That should count for something.
My heart goes out to you and your son - and his girlfriend. I'm sure the family means well but doubt they know the damage they've done with their actions on this.
My heart would have been just torn to pieces had this happened to me at that age.
Hugs all the way around.
=========
And, oh, due to the emotional toll on the adrenals, it may be more important than ever for your son to be on endocrine/adrenal support to help offset the physiological demands that the actual physical "adrenal shock" of all this may be causing.
Acupuncture, too, can ease some of the toll of heartache.
[ 12-29-2009, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
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posted
- Even if it is in saliva, and if a healthy person is exposed to that saliva, is may not the same as being injected by a tick.
Spirochetes, themselves, want to go deep and hide where there is little vibration and movement. If spirochetes were pronounced in saliva, testing would be infinitely easier. Just my thoughts.
It will be good to find out what the LLMD's thought are.
I say just put the whole world on a good allicin capsule and no one has to worry about anyone else. We'd all do better with a Mediterranean diet, anyway, so garlic would be the new aroma of the gods ! -
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Hoosiers51
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15759
posted
I wouldn't worry about it. Though convincing these other people might be easier said than done.
I have had plenty of boyfriends since I became ill with Lyme (and it was sudden onset, so I know it was active). They are all fine.
Personally, even if I saw data saying LIVING spirochetes were found in saliva, I still wouldn't believe transmission via saliva is possible.
There are so many factors....it would have to somehow get into the other person's body....so would it go via stomach and GI? What would the stomach acid do to the saliva? Would the very low ph of the stomach acid kill the spirochetes?
And how do you know the saliva in whatever study is available wasn't contaminated with blood?
With HIV, the only case of it being transmitted by saliva that I have read about was from an old woman in Africa, where they still have adults chew food then transfer it to infants' mouths...and this old lady had horrendous gum disease, so her saliva was very contaminated with blood, and the infant got HIV.
This probably isn't helping much, but pretty much every doctor in America would agree kissing cannot transmit Lyme.
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
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posted
- The LDA and ILADS research should also be consulted but there appear to be no general medical articles linking human salvia with transmission of lyme. Be sure to also check out true lyme researchers' work and a general sampling of LLMD's quotes about that but this should make the girl's family more at ease:
borrelia, human+saliva - one. (But it deals with a different kind of borrelia than lyme, in mice who were breeding. I never saw the term human saliva in this abstract - but the printing is hard to read.)
borrelia b., human+saliva - zero
borrelia, kissing - zero
----
babesia, saliva - 6 abstracts
babesia, saliva, human-to-human - zero
babesia, kissing - zero
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bartonella, saliva - 3 abstracts (all relating to cats or dogs)
bartonella, saliva, human-to-human - zero
bartonella, kissing - zero
===========
BTW, no one should let their pets kiss them on or near the mouth as bartonella can be passed from animal to humans that way.
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And some strains of HPV (human papillomavirus) seem to be transmitted through saliva. Although that's a different topic, all teens need to be aware of that especially if either partner has ever engaged in oral sex. Then, just kissing might pass on some strains to a new partner. I'm thinking they are learning this is school but not sure.
There are also some HPV strains that just may be in folks who've never engaged in intimate contact. There is much to learn about all this.
Human Papillomaviruses and Cancer: Questions and Answers
Excerpt from #3:
Studies have also found that oral HPV infection is a strong risk factor for oropharyngeal cancer (cancer that forms in tissues of the oropharynx, which is the middle part of the throat and includes the soft palate, the base of the tongue, and the tonsils) (2, 3).
Researchers found that an oral HPV infection and past HPV exposure increase the risk of oropharyngeal squamous cell cancer . . . .
NEJM Volume 356:1944-1956 -May 10, 2007- Number 19
Case-Control Study of Human Papillomavirus and Oropharyngeal Cancer
. . . .
Conclusions: Oral HPV infection is strongly associated with oropharyngeal cancer among subjects with or without the established risk factors of tobacco and alcohol use.
-
[ 12-29-2009, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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canefan17
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posted
So this thing could spread like the plague soon?
Has it already began? interesting
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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Keebler
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posted
- canefan,
Oh, I'm just getting used to - even comfortable with - the idea that all sorts of germs actually share the planet with me. I sure wish I had taken more science classes in my youth (and not looked for love in some wrong places as I approached adulthood).
This also helps us be able to talk more openly and factually about intimate relationships on various levels. That's a good thing. I had zero knowledge about these matters explained to me by anyone in the 70's.
Even as we learn more about germs, we have lots of protection in plants and nutrition so that we need not freak out but still can become aware and proactive.
Curcumin for everyone - it could do a lot of bodies good.
-
[ 12-29-2009, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
so Keebler, if pets can transfer bartonella to people via saliva, why not humans? In this case though I would expect it would be between untreated people, wouldn't you think?
Posts: 758 | From now TX | Registered: Mar 2001
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
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posted
- Excellent question.
First, the key in this case is that the patient has been on treatment for a long time treating according to doctor's orders and is far better, that a whole different case.
Back to dogs and cats and their unique kisses for us:
Uh, mostly because dogs' and cats' mouths go places ours don't.
It's not just the germs from inside their mouths from what they gather from outside, too, from the other end of their bodies - and also from blood sources of their captures. More than just bartonella to be concerned with there.
That is part of it, at least. But it does seem a question that could be examined in further detail.
As I understand it, cats, for instance, have enzymes or some other system to help them handle their own germs but if they slobber their germs into our mouths, our saliva does not have that mechanism to handle their germs.
Another reason why it's not a good idea for cats to get up on kitchen countertops or drink from a dripping faucet. I know some people who think that can be cute but those germs hang out on the faucets and can be transfered to us.
Again, just part of the picture and a very basic attempt to explain what a doctor once told me. So much more to it but someone else can take it from there if they so wish but then a whole different thread on pets' kisses might best be started for that. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Hoosiers51
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I think the Bartonella MIGHT have something to do with fleas and the flea feces (poop)...right?
So hopefully humans shouldn't have that problem!
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