Yesterday on the cover of a newspaper here in Austria there was an add for people to volunteer for a Lyme Disease prevention study.
Most people here are very familar with the tick-borne FSME strain.
I think it's translated, 'early summer meningoencephalitis', in English.
There is a vaccination for it and they advertise a lot on TV and on billboards every Spring for people to get their shots.
On the other hand not so many know about LD here. Especially late stage, of course:(
I looked up the link the add provided and to my surprise they mentioned that Lyme disease untreated can lead to serious chronic conditions.
This could perhaps be a positive step in the right direction (I hope), but.....
Funny, because when I went to some of the top doctors in the hospital I told them that the one, at least known tick bite I got was 30 + years ago.
All my load of health problems started around that time (very early teens) including Lymphnode biopsy surgery, Ebstein Barr, neuropsyh. problems,etc., etc.
That tick bite 30 years ago took me out of a Sport I loved and was having some success in.
I trained at the Olympic Center, Colorado Springs.
I have left most of my jobs through the years because of health issues.
I feel that Lyme has also played a part in my Tinitus/Hyperacusis I got 5 years ago.
I was a prof. musician. So much for that.
I no many here are going through a much worse time.
Anyways, they dismissed the 'old' tick bite story in a blink based on a positive IgM test and negative IgG test.
No further investigation needed.
They also had no answers for my long history of health problems and sent me home with a 3 week antibiotic perscription.
Bacically, 'take these' and forget about it.
I wish it were that easy!
On top of that one Dr. described other certain doctors activities in Europe who are testing and treating Chronic patients as, "criminal".
I no none of this is no new news. Just thought to share. Best wishes.
Posts: 128 | From California | Registered: Apr 2012
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posted
Excuse my Typoes:) I was in a rush:)
Posts: 128 | From California | Registered: Apr 2012
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poppy
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5355
posted
By prevention, do you mean they are advertising a lyme vaccine?
There is a new Lyme vaccine that is being tested in Europe right now. That is the only I know of. It is an OspA type, which is what they were using in the U.S. several years back. Don't know if this is different from the U.S. one, but ours had big problems and was taken off the market. Lawsuits, etc. So, maybe don't be first in line for this vaccine.
Prevention, as in keeping ticks off, is good.
And worth noting that in the U.S., when they had a vaccine to sell, suddenly lyme was a serious problem. Not otherwise!
Posts: 2888 | From USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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I would NOT get a vaccine for Lyme. The one in the US 10-12 yrs ago GAVE PEOPLE LYME.
--
SHOW THIS TO YOUR DOCTOR:
"With most infections, your immune system first forms IgM antibodies, then in about 2 to 4 weeks, you see IgG antibodies. In some infections, IgG antibodies may be detectable for years.
Because Borrelia burgdorferi is a chronic persistent infection that may last for decades, you would think patients with chronic symptoms would have positive IgG Western blots.
But actually, more IgM blots are positive in chronic borreliosis than IgG. Every time Borrelia burgdorferi reproduces itself, it may stimulate the immune system to form new IgM antibodies.
Some patients have both IgG and IgM blots positive. But if either the IgG or IgM blot is positive, overall it is a positive result.
Response to antibiotics is the same if either is positive, or both. Some antibodies against the borrelia are given more significance if they are IgG versus IgM, or vice versa."
posted
Thanks Lymetoo, I knew of the Westernblot article through you guys already so I didn't listen to what this doctor had to say.
@poppy-A lot to read but it looks like they want to test an Antibiotic(Azithromycin) cream applied on the skin where there has been a Tick bite.
They are asking people for the test who've recently been bit and have kept the Tick so it can be tested for Lyme.
Sounds strange. How can a cream/gel help anything?
Posts: 128 | From California | Registered: Apr 2012
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- I know you are posting mainly regarding the word out there that lyme can be bad but most of the doctors you find dismiss it.
To be clear, please: DO NOT GET A LYME VACCINE
DO NOT ENCOURAGE YOUR FRIENDS - or even your enemies - to get a lyme vaccine.
There may (or may not) be changes from the previous failure. It could be the very one, just re-marketed.
There are huge questions to ask first. Remember, though, there is money to be made from vaccines and it's the ONE time the regular medical folks will let out the truth that lyme can be very bad -- as long as they can make money from that statement.
The vaccine used here in the U.S. a few years ago CAUSED lyme in many - and caused great devastation for many. Some died.
Unless ILADS voices their approval, avoid it. You might discuss this with your LLMD to learn more.
Would it be good if there were a perfect vaccine? Sure. But until you know that world leaders in this area voice a resounding, "yes" - avoid it.
Remember, there are over 300 strains of Borrelia. Over a hundred that can affect humans. And they can "morph" so to speak, changing their genetic nature.
No one vaccine can cover all the bases. I do hope your LLMD can help you find out more about this one, though, as your knowledge on this subject could have important influence on your friends.
And, as good research makes it way to us, your LLMD can share that, too. There are many things to consider with a vaccine.
----------
SAVE THE TICK
YES, keep the tick for testing. VERY important detail can be obtained -- but, again, tests still can't find everything and the methods may not be perfect. Never count on a negative test from a tick but a positive test is very valuable detail.
CREAMS ?
I don't think any cream can help transmission. It may help the bite site heal but it simply cannot get to the brain as quickly as spirochetes can. Really, a cream is not going to be any measure of system treatment.
The very instant a tick bites, all kinds of infections can be introduced into the blood stream. The gate has been opened. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
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- Back to that Lyme Disease prevention study in Austria.
You mentioned vaccination and that caught my eye.
However, aside from the concerns and questions that would need to be answered there,
Lyme Disease prevention study could have some positive aspects (if there is no risk). Their study will have to be weighed in light of details at ILADS and ILADS "minded" organizations sights.
PREVENTION, of course, is of vital importance. No one doubts that. Education really matters.
If you have a link for that site, it would be good to see that.
======================================
Not sure about lyme organizations for doctors or patients are in Europe or Austria. Remember that those who follow the IDSA are the discounters of chronic lyme (and the ones out to make money on a vaccine).
IDSA (Infectious Diseases Society of America) which also seems to have influence in Europe. IMO, that's very sad, indeed, regarding lyme.
ILADS is international. IMO, the best organization to follow regarding research and treatment methods. Not every member of ILADS treats the same (nor should they).
While there are some "rules" so to speak, it's understood that each patient has a different mix and requirements.
At the ILADS site, you can compare the philosophy differences of the IDSA & ILADS.
Of the organizations below, each has some differences or focus, but they are all fully "lyme literate" and ILADS "minded" -- bringing them all together.
[Not an exclusive or formal list. Just the top organizations that came to mind.]
-------------- Correction has been made in light of poppy's post below. -
[ 05-25-2012, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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poppy
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posted
Keebler, I think you should look at the name again of that foundation. It is not the ALDF, but rather what appears to be a takeoff on it, just like the ALDF was an attempt to confuse people looking for the Lyme Disease Foundation (which has just closed up shop, they were good guys).
So, treat the bite is reliable. Click on that link to see what it says, and you will see it is not the ALDF.
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Keebler
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Member # 12673
posted
- Poppy,
thanks SO much for the quick catch.
I spent quite some time with that before and I thought I saw connection to FD / IDSA - but now, I don't see that. Hmmm. I'll try to figure out my glitch later when I think think better. I like to see just here I bounced off track when I can. Your post helps.
I still can't figure out how I confused the two groups. I had thought it was this group below, which IS in direct opposition to ILADS:
Board of Directors and Advisors - [many with the IDSA]
-- Posting this only for awareness. This group discounts chronic lyme and combination treatment for more than short term.
It's important to know this group exists. They derailed my quest for an answer for a full year. I called them. They told me that lyme cannot be chronic. I believed them. I got so much worse. Then I became aware about ILADS.
I remember that a group with a similar name, the LDA - Lyme Disease ASSOCIATION - is the one to trust as it gets an "A" in my book. -
[ 05-25-2012, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
@Keebler- Well, I'll tell you, I personally experienced the IDSA philosophy first hand here.
No doubt about that. We felt almost rediculed by one Doctor.
Concerning the Lyme add, it wasn't my desire to look into any possible vaccination.
In the add it says, 'vorbeugung' which means prevention so I'm still unsure what's really going on.
Like you said as well, what can a cream do after the fact?
I was just a little surprised to see on the study Website that they considered chronic Bb.
It's only in German, but since you asked here's the website link....http://www.zeckenstudie.com/ thnx
Posts: 128 | From California | Registered: Apr 2012
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Keebler
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- Thanks for that link but, sadly, my German grandmother did not pass along her language to the younger generation (nor did my Irish grandparents).
I can't read a word but it sure looks impressive, none the less. Nice layout.
All I got was the study seems open to those 18 - 80 years of age.
I saw only one medical reference to a PCR test - only for ospA gene (but not others?), but do not recognize the authors:
Distribution of Clinically Relevant Borrelia Genospecies in Ticks Assessed by a Novel, Single-Run, Real-Time PCR -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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I found another article concerning the company doing this study.
Still sounds bizarre to me.
They are trying to development a new treatment.
Their premise is that possibly if you apply this Abx cream shortly after being bitten that the Bb will/could be killed locally, i.e. 'around the skin' before it can spread.
hughh??
Posts: 128 | From California | Registered: Apr 2012
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- IMO, they are dead wrong about that cream. Might it help? Maybe BEFORE the bite, maybe. But not after the bite, IMO.
I think they forget just how the blood stream works with vector borne infections.
They also seem to disregard the spirochete's ability - once in the blood - to be able literally spring out of the vessel pathways to anywhere, through any tissue.
I have heard of this cream before - and don't know everything there is about it, especially the one they use. These are just my concerns. I'm not a professional medical person, though.
I just don't see how any topical cream can kill spirochetes once out of the gate.
------- A speaker I saw/heard via the internet this week at the conference in NY state (Saratoga Springs, Skidmore College) , spoke a while about a vaccine and what would be required for that.
The director of the lab below, he thinks it was a ways off but worth working toward. He was eloquent regarding the parameters. He spoke to why the recent vaccine did not have it right.
It would be interesting to hear his thoughts about this one now offered in your country. I would think that he would be aware if there were a current good vaccine anywhere in the world.
This is not a link to his talk, as I'm too tired to hunt that down. Just to his site.
. . . Dr. Ahmed Kilani, President of Clongen Labs, will discuss new laboratory methods to enhance the detection sensitivity in the testing process. . . . -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Their premise is that possibly if you apply this Abx cream shortly after being bitten that the Bb will/could be killed locally, i.e. 'around the skin' before it can spread.
hughh??
- Yeah, I've heard of that... I would be VERY doubtful and would not want to be a guinea pig on that one.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
One group (Harvard) says topical creams for tick bites works well in mice. (I'm happy for the mice.)
The IDiot IDSA guideline authors say it doesn't work in humans, but I've never known them to be right about anything. Could be they don't profit from this invention and that is why they are kicking it all over the place?
Here are two abstracts for your review.
BTW- The research and studies by the IDiots are being done overseas because the IDiots think they can get away with it and folks there won't cry FOWL as loudly as we do.
You are being used as guinea pigs, so please RUN from the vaccine trials. The vaccines are based on research using tests that are inaccurate, so how can you trust THAT? And they have idiots looking for the proverbial cash cow running the operations. So do run!
J Infect Dis. 1993 Oct;168(4):1042-5. Topical prophylaxis for Lyme disease after tick bite in a rodent model. Shih CM, Spielman A. Source Dept. of Tropical Public Health, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, MA 02115.
Abstract To determine whether infection with the Lyme disease spirochete (Borrelia burgdorferi) can be aborted by topical application of antibiotic to the site of tick attachment, individual infected nymphal deer ticks (Ixodes dammini) were permitted to feed on the ears of mice, and various antibiotics were applied to the feeding site at intervals after the replete infecting tick had detached.
Infection in each mouse was determined by serology and by xenodiagnosis at 4 weeks after the bite of the infected tick. None of these mice became infected when antibiotic was topically applied to the site of tick attachment within 2 days after the spirochete-infected ticks had detached.
In contrast, all nontreated and virtually all solvent-treated mice became persistently infected. Thus, persistent infection by the agent of Lyme disease can be aborted by appropriate topical application of antibiotic.
J Infect Dis. 2012 Mar;205(6):991-4. Epub 2011 Sep 19. Failure of topical antibiotics to prevent disseminated Borrelia burgdorferi infection following a tick bite in C3H/HeJ mice.
Wormser GP, Daniels TJ, Bittker S, Cooper D, Wang G, Pavia CS. Source Department of Medicine, New York Medical College, Valhalla, NY 10595, USA. [email protected]
Abstract A prior study in mice has shown that the timely application of topical antibiotics to the skin at the tick bite site could eradicate Borrelia burgdorferi infection.
That study, however, did not evaluate antibiotic preparations that are considered suitable for use in humans.
In this murine study, topical application of 2% erythromycin and 3% tetracycline preparations that are acceptable for use in humans was found to be ineffective in eliminating B. burgdorferi from the tick bite site or in preventing dissemination to other tissues. Reasons for the discrepant findings are discussed.
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