posted
I just got my igenex results. My family doctor rec'd them, but admits she has no idea how to interpret them. I'm waiting to hear back from my LLMD - but he is going on vacation.
I was on abx while these were drawn.
Here goes: IGM Western blot
23-25 IND 31 IND 41 IND
The rest were negative. It says "IGENEX IGM RESULT NEGATIVE".
IGG Western Blot 31 IND 39 IND 58 + 66 +
The rest were negative. It says "IGENEX IGG result negative".
Genomic B. burgdorferi: Negative Plasmid B. burgdorferi: Negative
HGE (erchlichiosis): IGM <1:40 titer ,negative IGG 1:40 may indicate progression of disease and/or treatment
B. Henselae antibody ,bartonella IGM <1:20 negative IGG <1:40 negative
B. Microti antibody ,babesiosis IGM <1:20 negative IGG <1:20 negative Babesia FISH RNA : Negative
So, from what I've read, even though it is technically negative for Lyme, the fact that I am positive or IND are markers for Lyme. Also, possibly positive for Erch.
Am I interpreting these correct?
Posts: 7 | From Maryland | Registered: Jul 2006
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5dana8
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
Hi atypes
here's some links you may want to print out to show to your doc.
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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bettyg
Unregistered
posted
I sent you my newbie's links; look for LYMETOO/TUTU'S DR. C's explanation of western blot results.
I don't know about the other stuff. Bettyg
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SForsgren
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posted
Looks like Ehrlichia and Borrelia (Lyme) are both suspect. Low immune response possibly but you do have some Borrelia specific bands showing up. I would pursue an LLMD for further direction.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Sewer Rat
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posted
Originally posted by atypes:
quote: Here goes: IGM Western blot
23-25 IND 31 IND 41 IND
The rest were negative. It says "IGENEX IGM RESULT NEGATIVE".
IGG Western Blot 31 IND 39 IND 58 + 66 +
The rest were negative. It says "IGENEX IGG result negative".[/QB]
These Borrelia test results are "negative", so it doesn't provide evidence of exposure to Bb. Of course that doesn't exclude a diagnosis of Lyme.
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SForsgren
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posted
Sewer Rat's comments are incorrect in my opinion. 31 and 39 are indicative of only Borrelia (unless you had LymeRix vaccine which may be a reason for band 31). Otherwise, these show exposure, even if at a weak level. I disagree that the test results show no exposure to Borrelia.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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david1097
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posted
Actually I agree with Sewer rat. The IND bands mean just that - INDETERMINATE. NO DEFINATIVE DIAGNOSIS CAN BE MADE FROM THESE RESULTS, although with symptoms + all other more likely causes of the symtoms being ruled out + some risk of exposure they MAY be considered as supportive of a Lyme diagnosis under certain circumstances. This despite the absence of 41, which is usually a very strongly reponding band with a number of bacterial infections including Lyme.
How sick are you and what does your blood count look like, WBC's in particular?
Did you take antibiotics around the time of tick attachment?
Again for the enlightenment of the readers, western blots are not black and white. There can be many shades of gray since the BACKGROUND on the blot may not be clear. It is these dirty blots that make it hard to come up with a clear + to +++. The IND is is a non standard reporting method but has been included to allow a physician to make a judgement call of the validity of the band based on other inputs for the case.
NOTE THAT IT SAYS RIGHT IN THE IGENEX INFO THAT AN IND RESULT SHOULD BE DONE AGAIN.
I HAVE PERSONALLY SEEN blots that had many IND bands, for basically asymtomatic people or with only a few Lyme like symtoms that had recieved tick like bites, only to have a totally negative (except 41) blots 6 months later and 6 months again after that.
ALL WB'S MUST BE INTERPRETED WITH THE SYMPTOMS - YOU NEED YOUR DR. TO DO THAT.
So my read of the results... If you have lyme symptoms that a Dr has characterized, the results of the WB indicate that a Lyme Diagnosis may be in order based on consideration of all factors. On the other hand, If you are objectively asymtomatic the likleyhood of Lyme is very very very low.
Even if you are symtomatic since the results are weak, the other possible causes of the symptoms should be ruled out based on risk assesment and symptom-condition co-relation. The Dr has to decide, He is the expert and only he has the detailed clinical data needed to figure out what is going on.
Posts: 1184 | From north america | Registered: Feb 2003
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Sewer Rat
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posted
quote:Originally posted by SForsgren: Sewer Rat's comments are incorrect. 31 and 39 are indicative of only Borrelia (unless you had LymeRix vaccine which may be a reason for band 31). Otherwise, these show exposure, even if at a weak level. I disagree that the test results show no exposure to Borrelia.
These bands are NOT 100% specific for Bb. Even band 39 kDa, often considered "the most specific band for Bb", can slightly cross-react with T. Pallidum. Also, we always have to keep in mind that there MAY be other, yet unknown, cross-reactive pathogens.
If bands 31 kDa and 39 kDa were both "positive", then I would agree that the test results provide evidence of exposure to Bb. But since the bands are only "IND" you just can't make much of it. Therefore, these test results are "negative".
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
Here goes: IGM Western blot
23-25 IND =23-kDa OspC *24-kDa OspC 25-kDa OspC [specific for Bb] IND means they saw something just not enough to call it positive.
31 IND = 31-kDa OspA [specific for Bb] IND explanation above.
The rest were negative. It says "IGENEX IGM RESULT NEGATIVE".
IGG Western Blot 31 IND = 31-kDa OspA [specific for Bb] IND explanation above 39 IND = *39-kDa BmpA [specific for Bb] IND explanation above
58 + = On Western blot-like assays, B. burgdorferi and some B. afzelii strains express a major fibronectin-binding protein (Fn-BA) with an approximate molecular mass of 52 kDa. In addition, several other major Fn-BAs were found in B. hermsii (26, 31, 33, 39, 46, 54 and 58 kDa) and B. turicatae (39, 41, 45, 50, 56, 59 and 66 kDa). Preliminary evidence suggests that fibronectin (and Fn-BA) may play a role as a molecular bridge between the spirochete and other components of the extracellular matrix.Also: Aim of this study was evaluation of Western blot banding patterns in different clinical forms of early Lyme borreliosis diagnosed in patients from north-eastern Poland, recognized as endemic for tick-borne diseases. Study was performed on serum samples of 48 patients with Lyme borreliosis and 26 healthy volunteers, as controls. Samples tested routinely for total antibody with enzyme immunoassay were subsequently analysed for specific antibodies with Western blot based on antigen extract of European strain of Borrelia burgdorferi. In patients, IgM antibodies were the most frequently directed against 41 kDa and 58 kDa antigens, whereas in control group only antibodies against 45 kDa and 58 kDa were present. Similar response was observed in respect to IgG antibodies. Evaluation of banding pattern in respect to clinical form of the disease revealed the highest prevalence of IgM and IgG anti-41 kDa antibodies in patients with erythema migrans and Lyme arthritis, and anti-58 kDa in neuroborreliosis patients, who had no anti-21 kDa antibodies. Relatively high frequency of IgG antibodies against 21, 30 and 93 kDa antigens was typical for neuroborreliosis. Bands count was significantly higher in different clinical forms of the disease than in controls, and it was the highest in neuroborreliosis. Combined analysis of Western blot results (IgM/IgG) enabled to achieve higher sensitivity (84%) and specificity (100%) than available with the most recommended EIA kits.
A Borrelia-specific monoclonal antibody binds to a flagellar epitope. A G Barbour, S F Hayes, R A Heiland, M E Schrumpf and S L Tessier ABSTRACT
In immunofluorescence assays monoclonal antibody H9724 recognized eight species of the spirochetal genus Borrelia but not representatives of the genera Treponema, Leptospira, and Spirochaeta. We examined the reactivity of H9724 against subcellular components of Borrelia hermsii, an agent of relapsing fever, and B. burgdorferi, the cause of Lyme disease. H9724 bound to isolated periplasmic flagella of the two borreliae. In Western blots the antibody reacted with the predominant protein in flagellar preparations from B. hermsii and B. burgdorferi; the apparent molecular weights of these flagellins were 39,000 and 41,000, respectively.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
SForsgren
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posted
Bottom line from my perspective is that atypes should not close the door on this and interpret this test as "negative". Doing so would potentially risk his/her health further. I know several doctors that would not interpret this as a definite "negative" as is being suggested here.
There are clear indications of Bb specific band activity. They may be IND, but I have seen it too many times that IND bands turn highly positive as one starts treatment and the immune system reacts to the now circulating dead/dying organisms or the immune system strengthens over time.
Chances of cross-reactivity are not significant AND if as you suggest band 39 may cross-react with T. pallidum, that is also important. T. Pallidum is syphilis and would also warrant treatment and attention.
Additionally, the evidence of potential ehrlichia exposure is another factor that tips the scale a little bit further towards the possibility of tick-borne disease.
For me, the key here is not to take this test as "negative" but to interpret it as "you appear to have evidence of NOT being negative" and continue looking into this.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Sewer Rat
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posted
Originally posted by SForsgren:
quote:Bottom line from my perspective is that atypes should not close the door on this and interpret this test as "negative". Doing so would potentially risk his/her health further.
Igenex also reports the test results as "negative", because that's what they are, while we don't even know the anamnesis, symptoms, etc. of "atypes". The Lyme fixation on this forum could potentially risk people's health as well.
quote:There are clear indications of Bb specific band activity.
Nonsense.
quote:They may be IND, but I have seen it too many times that IND bands turn highly positive as one starts treatment and the immune system reacts to the now circulating dead/dying organisms or the immune system strengthens over time.
That MAY happen, but that also MAY NOT happen. For now the bands are IND, and that is about all the information we got.
quote:For me, the key here is not to take this test as "negative" but to interpret it as "you appear to have evidence of NOT being negative" and continue looking into this.
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
SewerRat said "The Lyme fixation on this forum could potentially risk people's health as well."
Duh its called Lymenet
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
I think I know what sewer rat is indicating. Looking at many posts over the last few months when it comes to lab tests a pattern seems to develop. If the test has Pos results everyone says test is Positive no matter how weak ( say Ind's and a few bands ) But when it says Neg everyone always says that may not be the case. Not sure which is correct but I think sewer rat has a point
Posts: 408 | From NY | Registered: Jan 2006
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treepatrol
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quote:Originally posted by Sewer Rat: Originally posted by treepatrol:
quote:Duh its called Lymenet
That is no excuse to state about a negative test with a few IND bands things like: "There are clear indications of Bb specific band activity."
Or worse: telling people they have Lyme based only on a test result, which I have seen happen too.
Very irresponsible!
I still see nothing wrong with SForsgren answers to you or the person he replyed to.
And by the way who posted this?
as you say?
Or worse: telling people they have Lyme based only on a test result, which I have seen happen too.
????????????
You sure like strife sewer rat
And who are you calling Very irresponsible????me or SForsgren or someone else?
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
quote:Originally posted by SForsgren: Bottom line from my perspective is that atypes should not close the door on this and interpret this test as "negative". Doing so would potentially risk his/her health further. I know several doctors that would not interpret this as a definite "negative" as is being suggested here.
Agree. I would suggest to atypes that a trial run of antibiotics would be a smart move at this point. Take abx for several weeks, then go off abx for at least two weeks and test again.
If you really have Lyme [my thought] you will have more bands show positive and you'll also herx.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96239 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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SForsgren
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Member # 7686
posted
I think when potential indications exist that may show Lyme as an issue, it is my opinion that it is better to err on the side of caution. I would much rather see atypes get a knowledgeable doctor to review this further, possibly due a couple of weeks of antibiotics and retest to see what the results do.
I would be much more comfortable with paying attention to something that may not be an issue than ignoring these potential indictors and later having atypes health deteriorate further as a result of overlooking these indictators. An IND result is not the same as a "negative".
The IgG for Ehrlichia and the IND bands suggest further investigation in my opinion. If the result is that I am incorrect, you may lose a bit of time and some money. If the differing opinion is wrong, you may lose your health.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
Bottom line lyme should be clinical diagnosis. Not just based on controvercial tests.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
Thank all of those who posted on my test results. I value everyone's opinion, as I'm new to the Lyme world.
My doctor has said that the tests appear to be what Igenex considers negative, but admits they are suspect.
We are going to continue with Doxy and see how my symptoms do. I was very sick 30 days ago, and have seen great improvement with herbs, Doxy, accupuncture, and even got in one good Rife treatment.
My biggest concern is if it isn't some tick born illness, what in God's name could it be? Does the fact that I've gotten better with abx, herbs mean that it was tick born?
Again, I'm scared to think what else it could be.
Thank you again for the great knowledge and opinions of this group. You guys are lifesavers.
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