quote:An anticholinergic agent is a member of a class of pharmaceutical compounds which serve to reduce the effects mediated by acetylcholine in the central nervous system and peripheral nervous system.
Anticholinergics are typically reversible competitive inhibitors of one of the two types of acetylcholine receptors, and are classified according to the receptors that are affected: antimuscarinic agents operate on the muscarinic acetylcholine receptors, and antinicotinic agents operate on the nicotinic acetylcholine receptors. The majority of anticholinergics are antimuscarinics.
Today I went to the HMO doctor again. They ran third urine test. I still (2 months of testing) have blood in my urine and no discernable bacteria.
It can't be an infection (right! only a little Bb maybe?), so a 'diagnosis by exclusion' (doc's term) is why he is sending me to a urologist to see if I have Interstitial Cystitis. There is a thread about this.
And to help with the symptoms of not being able to fully empty the bladder, the doctor prescribed an anticholinergic. And after looking up what it does I think I won't take it.
Aren't we trying to help with acetylcholine, not block it's receptors??? Also, I've been having occasional blurry vision. One of the side effects listed was 'Increased intraocular pressure,' which sounds like what I'm already having.
Any thoughts on this drug's impact on someone with lyme?
-------------------- When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness, Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.
RuthRuth Posts: 478 | From California | Registered: Jan 2007
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cantgiveupyet
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Ruth- just curious what is the brand name of this drug?
thanks
I had blood in my urine too last year during one of the cultures.
-------------------- "Say it straight simple and with a smile."
"Thus the task is, not so much to see what no one has seen yet, But to think what nobody has thought yet, About what everybody sees."
-Schopenhauer
pos babs, bart, igenex WB igm/igg Posts: 3156 | From Lyme limbo | Registered: Oct 2005
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clairenotes
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posted
Have you checked your pH lately, Ruth?
Here is a link to a thread not long ago that discusses this a little.
Thanks for the link. I read the thread. As for my diet, I eat pretty good in terms of staying non-acidic.
The pH from the last two urine tests (3/5/07 = 7.0 and 3/13/07 = 8.0).
quote:The pH is a measure of how acidic or alkaline (basic) the urine is. A urine pH of 4 is strongly acidic, 7 is neutral (neither acidic nor alkaline), and 9 is strongly alkaline.
So it's been neutral to alkaline.
-------------------- When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness, Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.
RuthRuth Posts: 478 | From California | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
The drug first prescribed was Oxybutynin Chloride. I went back to the office and explained to the doctor about my eye pressure symptoms and asked for something different.
In fact, I asked for something someone on the Bladder Symptoms thread mentioned helped them called Hydroxyzine.
I called a close friend of mine who is has been disabled for over 10 years (with SSI) due to lyme/co-infections and asked her about it. She said hydroxyzine has been key to keeping her from being completely bedridden. But she is on many, many meds, so I'm not sure what to think still.
The pharmacist told me that the hydroxyzine is also an anticholinergic agent, but at a much lower level. I plan to look that up tomorrow.
(Tonight was spent in an E.R. with a friend who needed someone by her side while they investigated the cause of her chest pains. So, I didn't get to take care of my stuff just yet.)
-------------------- When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness, Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.
RuthRuth Posts: 478 | From California | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
Also, someone forwarded these comments from a ND in response to a question about chronic cystits ...
quote:It depends on what the problem is. However, if it is a lyme patient, usually the bladder problems come from alot of die off going through the bladder and irritating it.
Vit B6 is utilized by the trigone of the bladder in much higher quantities than in the kidneys or ureters. You can get bladder discomfort just from not having enough B6 in your system.
I would try 400mg upwards to 800mg, and see if the disturbance clears up. Usually takes between 1 - 5 days to see results.
Buchu is an herb that I have also used. It make the bladder feel alot better, but is not easy to find in stores. Probably need to get it online.
If this is the case for me, then I could be encouraged that my irritated bladder is a sign of my current remedies working! ... Now wouldn't that be nice.
-------------------- When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness, Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.
RuthRuth Posts: 478 | From California | Registered: Jan 2007
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clairenotes
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For whatever this is worth, buchu is one ingredient in a kidney detox formula that I used once by Solaray. I don't have the bottle anymore, but I think it says something like Kidney SP14. Was not very expensive.
That pH number 8.0 seems a little strange, like too much in the other direction. I think I was told the ideal number is 7.0 and per instructions from the strip. Hmmm... maybe someone else has some thoughts about this.
Also, if there is die-off going on, could there be periodic episodes where you are more acid than alkaline? pH strips should help determine that as you could look at it throughout the day.
Claire
Posts: 1111 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
If you have IC, forget the cranberry. It will make symptoms worse. [That would be one good way to tell what you have!]
Hydroxyzine helped my IC some.
Anticholinergics only made my constipated. They helped the bladder, but I couldn't handle the side effects!
Lyme treatment and mangosteen juice helped me the most of all.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96239 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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clairenotes
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I have not heard good things about cranberry juice either in relation to these types of infections, Ruth (you mentioned that you were taking it on the other discussion, link provided above).
Claire
[ 14. March 2007, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: clairenotes ]
Posts: 1111 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
Based on my positive response to cranberry concentrate (organic, of course!) and your comments here, I think I don't have I.C.
... but the doctor has to come up with some reason why I don't culture positive for the bacteria they check for ... and he seems more caring if he sends me for a referral instead of sending me away empty handed. (The in-office culture did show some trace bacterial presence yesterday tho.)
I haven't taken anything new since the bad symptoms two days ago (the rx meds are sitting by my computer patiently waiting to see if I get desperate enough).
I have increased the frequency of the homeopathic cantharis (says it's for blisters and bladder irritation). I've returned to my cranberry juice (sweetened with stevia, of course).
I still have irritation symptoms, but far less. I would like to hope that it is irritation from die-off (who would have thought bladders herx?)
So, I'm heading out to buy some vitamin B6 to test out that theory. They said improvement in 1-5 days... I'll post the results.
-------------------- When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness, Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.
RuthRuth Posts: 478 | From California | Registered: Jan 2007
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I'm not surprised the mangosteen helped (they grow that stuff in really healthy dirt, er, soil). And of course, the true solution is to deal with the real infections (TBIs). My appointment is at the end of April.
But meanwhile I don't want to hurt my recovery by treating the symptoms with the wrong stuff, which is why I started this thread.
I was hoping Marnie would lend her biochemistry thoughts about the anticholinergics blocking the acetylcholine receptors. I think I'm going to have to search and stretch my poor little brain on my own. (deep sigh here)
Thanks, everyone for your input. It's really important to me to not have to think alone. I do group think better!
posted
As long as I stay away from Citric Acid (in alot of things-like Xango) and take Detrol 2x a day, My bladder is almost normal.
Posts: 315 | From USA | Registered: May 2005
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trails
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Oxybutinin---that's my buddy. I have had to have foley indwelling catheters for several months this last year. my last surgery they mobilized and moved my bladder and sewed it to my psoas muscle so they could get it closer to my kidney. then they cut my damaged ureter (damaged from GYN surgery) and reimplanted it into my bladder.
Oxybutinin keeps your bladder from contracting. It can put you into urinary rentention if you dont have a cath though. It is a lifesaver for people with indwelling catheters. Other than that I know nothing. I hope you are on the road to feeling better! trails
Posts: 1950 | From New Mexico | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
Yes definitely the bladder can be irritated by die-off. I've had these bladder problems every day for 3 years now.
What is interstitial cystitis? No one knows that is the answer.
Before I found out I have Lyme, babesia and bartonella I took oxybutynin and before that Detrol. Neither of them helped and both had a lot of side-effects.
Standard urine cultures are not good at detecting anything besides e.coli. At least that is my understanding. Maybe try a broth culture through United Medical Lab? They are much more thorough.
~catwoman
Posts: 255 | From where we don't have Lyme disease | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
Thanks for all the thoughts and comments of your experiences. It is funny to be talking about such personal matters with 'strangers', but then, maybe it's easier than sharing with people you see every day! I am so very thankful for this forum!!!
I have added only the B6 at the recommended doses (not the rx) and have also taken some doses of Wellness Formula (just in case there is infection too).
There seems to be a reduction in the bladder inflammation symptoms (less feeling of retention). But the urine is now cloudier (but not darker, more whitish).
Other extraneous details:
I have had a bruise 'appear' on my right wrist. Leg cramps started this week. This morning my right index finger's final joint is swollen (it never, never did this before).
The TMJ pain and blurry vision are much improved after going to my chiropractor and using the shortwave diathermy on the side of my face 3x in one week. (Did the heat do something? or the 'rife' effect? I wonder.)
I am still taking the noni/pinella/burbur extracts and sarsaparilla/paudarco/catsclaw/yerbamate/olive/ginger decoction tea.
Also, the following supplements: chlorella, s.n. knotweed, alpha lipoic acid, vitalzym, o-zyme, epicor, liquid fulvic minerals, myocalm p.m., coQ10, krill oil, glandulars, B5, Lysine, biosil, b-complex, melatonin, support adrenal, n.f. thryoid support, elan vital, and beet kvass (liver support).
Still eating mostly organic, some raw fermented, mostly cooked-at-home diet. Main dietary 'sins' are organic dark chocolate and small amounts of fruit juice.
-------------------- When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness, Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.
RuthRuth Posts: 478 | From California | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
Anyone else use Huperzine A for bladder irritations?
It's been another couple of days and the irritation/burning symptoms are back a little bit. Sure seems like there is a hint of an infection behind some of these symptoms. (I didn't take my cranberry concentrate or wellness yesterday.)
I just reviewed the recommendations in the Buhner book and noticed that Huperzine A has traditionally been used for irritable bladder and nighttime urination issues. I'm going to get some and see if it helps.
-------------------- When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness, Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.
RuthRuth Posts: 478 | From California | Registered: Jan 2007
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Non-LLMD doctor's office nurse called today. They have positive bacterial infection urine culture results. Gram-neg plus Entro Bac. plus ...
They want me to take Septra DS.
I've read the drug fact sheet and I'm not sure it's any worse than any other antibiotic, but it doesn't look like the side effects are something to take on if I don't have to.
Anyone have any experience with it?
-------------------- When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness, Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.
RuthRuth Posts: 478 | From California | Registered: Jan 2007
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cantgiveupyet
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I took it for a few days back in jan 06 when bladder symptoms started for me.....i went to ER and they found HIGH nitrates, so he put me on the bactrim DS.....nothing ever grew on culture though.
What they told me is to make sure I drank plenty of water with it, they said like a gallon.
I was in the beginning of the lyme nightmare, and i think i herxed off of it, but that was also when i barely weighed 89lbs and they gave me an adult mega dose.
I also would take probiotics with it to avoid yeast.
Please, please treat the infection , you dont want to end up with a serious infection or IC.
-------------------- "Say it straight simple and with a smile."
"Thus the task is, not so much to see what no one has seen yet, But to think what nobody has thought yet, About what everybody sees."
-Schopenhauer
pos babs, bart, igenex WB igm/igg Posts: 3156 | From Lyme limbo | Registered: Oct 2005
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Yes, I will take the antibiotics. Against my personal desire to stay off them!
Your input is helpful as I play mental ping-pong with the whole decision.
PRO: I don't want this to get worse! CON: But I've had so many good days this week and I still have to get the taxes done STAT... PRO: You can't keep putting this off CON: The cranberry juice, wellness, etc. kept it at bay somewhat... PRO: but they didn't kill it off did they? CON: My gut is finally acting normal and I don't want to screw it up again...
And so it goes. But I will take the drugs and clean up the damage after the fact.
Thanks for the encouragement!
-------------------- When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness, Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.
RuthRuth Posts: 478 | From California | Registered: Jan 2007
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I already have a serious infection... that's why I'm on this forum!
Note2:
It took 3 months of self-treating before I gave in and saw the HMO doctor.
They took over 6 weeks to get a culture they deemed serious enough to need treatment.
So, why should I be in any hurry to take the antibiotics? Especially since the self-treatment seems to be at least marginally working to keep me out of their offices.
-------------------- When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness, Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.
RuthRuth Posts: 478 | From California | Registered: Jan 2007
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Marnie
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Somehow I missed your post...sorry. Just saw it.
Glad you got to the root of the urinary problem.
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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I would still be interested in the answer to the original question... are the anticholinergics good or bad or neither for lyme disease?
Update today:
New symptom. Pain in the tube between the kidney and the bladder. New doctor at the HMO. She changed the Rx (I hadn't filled the first one) to Cipro for 10 days.
This is the first antibiotic Rx for me since the reinfection. I really don't want to lose any ground I have gained and so I am adding in the GSE and more herbs.
Also, I have to work hard to get in my minerals (Mg/Cal/Zinc) because I can't take them 6 hours before and 2 hours after the Cipro. And the Cipro is an every 12 hour dosing. When will I sleep? zzz
-------------------- When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness, Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.
RuthRuth Posts: 478 | From California | Registered: Jan 2007
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Marnie
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"Pain in the tube between the kidney and bladder"...
2 of them - tubes.
One from each kidney (called ureters) -> bladder -> one tube out (urethra) The ureters from the kidneys are really small. When SMALL kidney stones with rough edges try to go thru these tubes (ureters), it is EXTREMELY painful. Worse than childbirth.
Doc suggest IVP? To see if you have kidney stones?
IV started, dye put in and the solution is quickly allowed to go into the system. Then x-ray of kidneys to see if stones (most are calcium) are present.
Kidney stones are one of the problems with lyme.
Calcium, most abundant mineral, is pulled from storage (bones) to maintain the pH.
Now about your other question.
Bb has a c-acetyltransferase gene. This enzyme is needed to MAKE acetylcholine. Bb cannot breakdown acetylcholine.
If Bb is depleting this enzyme (c-acetyltransferase) = too little acetylcholine.
Now...for others:
"An anticholinergic agent is a member of a class of pharmaceutical compounds which serve to reduce the effects mediated by acetylcholine in the central nervous system and peripheral nervous system.
Anticholinergics are typically reversible competitive
inhibitors of one of the two types of acetylcholine receptors,
and are classified according to the receptors that are affected: antimuscarinic agents operate on the muscarinic acetylcholine receptors, and antinicotinic agents operate on the nicotinic acetylcholine receptors. The majority of anticholinergics are antimuscarinics."
Theoretically...if you block the receptor, this would keep the level of the neurotransmitter high.
This is how Prozac works too...by keeping serotonin levels higher. Blocks certain receptors.
OR...
Take the nutrients needed to MAKE acetylcholine???
Depends on one's point of view.
Did you read my post about what attracts and what does NOT attract Bb?
Serine.
Looks like...and this gets very complicated...
Serine phosphorylation maybe problematic.
Our beloved... Dr. B is fighting prostate cancer. This has always been in the back of my mind. He once "had" lyme and that's how he got interested in treating it...or so the story goes.
So, I'm always on the "look-out" for new info. re: prostate cancer in the hopes that he will be reading here and can benefit.
Today, in a WebMD e-mail I get...
"March 19, 2007 -- Immune responses inadvertently break down a barrier that lets prostate cancer -- and maybe breast cancer -- spread throughout the body, a new study suggests.
One of the body's most basic defenses is inflammation. Inflamed tissues redden and swell with fluid. They give off a huge number of chemical signals to attract attention from the rest of the immune system.
Cancers don't always cause inflammation. But inflammation is known to help tumor cells grow.
Now researchers at the University of California, San Diego, have figured out one reason why.
Michael Karin, PhD, and colleagues suspected that a chemical signal, called IKK-alpha, plays a role in prostate cancer.
IKK-alpha signals breast tissue to grow during pregnancy and seems to play a role in breast cancer.
In mouse studies, Karin's team found that IKK-alpha is indeed involved in prostate cancer -- but in an unexpected way.
The signal, they discovered, turns off a gene that makes a protein called maspin. Maspin keeps tumor cells from spreading through the body, a process called metastasis."
So...IKKa -> good gene on "off" position and cancer can spread.
I have a LOT more...let's see...11 pages to piece together...
And it gets complex, of course!
It has to do with cell fate and factor sigma F:
Here's the stuff I have to get clear in my head:
"Cell fate is determined by cell-specific activation of transcription factor sigma F after asymmetric division during sporulation by Bacillus subtilis.
The activity of sigma F is governed by SpoIIAA, SpoIIAB, and SpoIIE, a membrane protein localized at the polar septum.
SpoIIAB binds to and inhibits sigma F, and SpoIIAA inhibits SpoIIAB, which prevents SpoIIAB from binding to sigma F.
SpoIIAB is also a serine kinase that inactivates SpoIIAA.
Here, it is demonstrated that SpoIIE dephosphorylates SpoIIAA-P and overcomes SpoIIAB-mediated inhibition of sigma F.
The finding that SpoIIE is a serine phosphatase links asymmetric division to the pathway governing cell-specific gene transcription. PMID: 7570023
I have to map the above out to "see" it...and study the rest of the info. I cut and pasted that also plays a part.
Like this:
"We conclude that phosphorylation of STAT4 on BOTH tyrosine and serine residues is important in promoting normal T[H]1 differentiation and IFN-y secretion."
With IFN-y (that's gamma interferon) down, up goes vitamin D...to prevent cancer (DNA damage)...
Looks like underlying problem involves phosphorus transfers.
I need more brain cells.
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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The tube (singular) is the right hand one. Seems more from inflammation/infection since it only took a single dose of Cipro to bring the pain level down by 50%.
The only time it hurts is when I laugh. Funny that. I enjoy laughing often. Now I know how often by the number of times I have to hold my gut as I say, haha/ow/hahaha. For some reason I make myself laugh harder when I hear myself say "ow".
My 'real' HMO doctor called me this evening (just got back in from being gone all week) and he suggested I keep my referral for the CT scan in the system, but wait to see if the antibiotics take care of my troubles. His call was reassuring anyways.
I did get my rain-tree 'urinary support' formula in the mail yesterday and will take that along with the Rx. Ingredients include an herb called 'stone breaker' that helps disolve the crystals.
Finally, let me see if I follow you on the original question...
IF Bb is preventing the production of acetylcholine because an enzyme needed to make acetylcholine is getting used up by the presence/action of Bb, THEN we are deficient in it, right?
So, IF I take something that is an anticholinergic, THEN it will block acetylcholine receptors... possibly increasing the level of acetylcholine available in my 'system', right?
Maybe I will think about phosphorus transfers tomorrow night.
I am testing out Surfulator for online research data organization. You might find it useful.
Thanks for your help!
-------------------- When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness, Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.
RuthRuth Posts: 478 | From California | Registered: Jan 2007
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For some reason I make myself laugh harder when I hear myself say "ow". 
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