Topic: One EASY FIX way Lyme Evades the Immune System
Jellybelly
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posted
Found this looking for any new information on hypercoagulation. According to Dr. K, laying down fibrin/hypercoagulation is one way that that Lyme microbes hide from our immune sytem. It's really quite simple....kind of cloaks itself with fibrin.
This is an excerpt from his book "Lyme Disease, A Look Beyond Antibiotics"
quote:1: Anergy - the absence of reaction due to the successful evasion of the host-defenses . One of the more known mechanisms the microbes use to create anergy is hypercoagulation. The microbes tend to live in the endothelium, where the food is most abundant. They trigger the host's coagulation mechanism to lay down a layer of fibrin on top of them to evade recognition by the immune system. etc.
Treating hypercoagulation is such a simple way to help our immune system recognize these microbes. I still believe that once your immune system knows what it is looking for it can kill this stuff at least in part.
[ 27. September 2007, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: Jellybelly ]
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-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96239 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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Marnie
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Member # 773
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ASA...good old aspirin.
Or Curcumin...the 2nd curcuminoid in curcumin has a molecular formula..get this...identical to warfarin!
Bb evades the immune system via downregulating CD1d...a glycoprotein antigen "recognition".
Which looks like if it was "noticed", would trigger the Th2 pathway.
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Jellybelly
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No Marnie I can't believe I just said no to Marnie......sorry.
Aspirin will NOT do the trick. Aspirin works on platelets if I am not mistaken. It does nothing for the fibrin. Fibrin is what is at issue in the case of coagulation stimulated by chronic infection.
As you know there are numerous, seperate parts of the clotting cascade, platelet activity being one is not the same as the fibrin. If you happen to have a platelet problem it is really made worse by the fibrin. BUT, and this is key for the majority of us....you can have the fibrin problem and have no issue with platelets.
Warfarin is also not a good option to treat this specific form of hypercoagulation triggered by the immune system.
Heparin as an ability to remove the fibrin even in micro doses without actually making you more likely to bleed. The blood then runs thinner primarily because the sticky fibrin has been removed.
Heparin also cleans the blood. Heparin is also much more stable then Warfarin. Unlike Warfarin, and aspirin, heparin is easier to manage, because of it's reversability. It has a very short life and is gone within a short period of time. The others can make your blood very thin for days.
There are several excellent natural options. Nattokinase, Lumbrokinase and Rechts Regulat. All of these are enzymes that actually digest the fibrin and many other bits of debris that do not belong in our blood stream.
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posted
I was on warfarin (hated it) and had my fibrin levels checked and they came back high. So my llmd switched me to heparin. I like heparin so much better!!!!!! I would almost bleed to death every month on warfarin, but am fine on heparin.
Kathy
-------------------- You never know how strong you are until being strong is the only choice you have. Posts: 807 | From South Dakota | Registered: Jul 2005
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Jellybelly
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Thanks Kathy for your experience with heparin, compared to warfarin.
Another thing that people often worry about is osteoperosis. In the micro amounts that we are given, that does not appear to be the same kind of problem it is when taking it doses given for an actual blood clot when in the hospital.
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D Bergy
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Cayenne pepper should work as well. I am glad someone pointed out this fibrin connection. I have Cayenne capsules in my house. I should have had my wife take it instead of me. At least she was taking Turmeric.
D Bergy
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Jellybelly
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D Bergy, I have never read anywhere that Cayanne would clear fibrin, and I have read alot on the subject. Do you have a place that you could point us too where you read this?
It is always good to more options to use as some can't use the typical options.
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tailz
Unregistered
posted
My doc wouldn't use heparin on me unless my Ivy Bleeding Time was off - then he never ordered one. I'm almost positive this test would have been abnormal last summer - I don't know if it would be now.
Docs never order this test though - I know, because I was a phlebotomist. It's a good test, too, to check clotting. They basically put a little cut on your forearm and then see how many minutes it takes for you to stop bleeding, while they sit there with some blotting paper.
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Jellybelly
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Tailz, the test you are speaking about is not the ISAC panel that tests for this form of hypercoagulation. The test you are speaking about is more of a main stream test, very different.
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It was found that the exposure of platelets to 4.0 muM
aspirin
either in vitro or in vivo
resulted in fibrinolysis of the formed "clot"
produced by the recalcification of platelet-rich plasma due to the production of NO in these cells by the compound.
The lysis of clot in the presence of aspirin was found to be related to the fibrinolysis with simultaneous appearance of fibrin degradation products due to the generation of serine proteinase activity by NO in the assay mixture.
PMID: 17636472 Am J Hematol. 2007 Jul 18
Definition of Fibrinolysis on the Web: � The process of breaking down/dissolving fibrin.
And...
The thrombolytic effect of aspirin was found to be comparable to that of streptokinase in these animals.
CONCLUSIONS: Aspirin, through the stimulation of NO synthesis, may produce thrombolysis in vivo. PMID: 17396230
Definitions of thrombolysis on the Web: � the breaking up of a blood clot.
Occlusions are thrombi composed of platelets, fibrin, erythrocytes, and leukocytes and are usually superimposed on or adjacent to atherosclerotic plaques.
Re: cayenne:
"Cayenne and other red chili peppers have been shown to reduce blood cholesterol, triglyceride levels, and platelet aggregation, while increasing the body's ability to dissolve fibrin, a substance integral to the formation of blood clots.
Cultures where hot peppers like cayenne are used liberally have a much lower rate of heart attack, stroke and pulmonary embolism."
[ 30. September 2007, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: Marnie ]
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Jellybelly
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Oh Marnie, your making me put on my thinking cap again and try to decifer what it is you just said. Which is as usual over my head, cuz I don't know what half the terms used above mean. BUT......I am sure that it is saying why you believe aspirin is a good option.
This is my understanding. Aspirin is to weak and does not target the fibrin enough, especially at a baby aspirin dose to actually remove fibrin. My experience, I took goobs of aspirin and it did nothing for the fibrin levels. PLUS aspirin can be extremely dangerous on our already fragile stomachs.
At the moment I don't know where it is, but David Berg of Hemex who actually is the pioneer of ISAC/hypercoagulation does not recommend the use of asprin. Although I do believe that he is finding some of the enzymes to actually do a pretty good job of clean up.
When looking for Bergs stuff specifically I did find some other interesting pieces. The first is I think a compilation of several Cardiac doctors. One out of Cedar Sinai, director of cardiovascular research, and another doctor who lectures around the world on Cardiac issues. There a couple of books sited. I will post the entire article on another thread cuz I really think it needs to be seen by the ones who aren't getting the significance of the thick blood issue.
Here is what the article says in regards to using aspirin.
quote: Despite the advertising that tells us how aspirin saves lives, aspirin and NSAIDS kill at least 20,000 people a year. [www.gordonresearch.com/articles_acam/acam_response_cranton_rebuttal_5-15-03.html] They either bleed to death or die from hemorrhagic strokes. The total number of deaths due to bleeding caused by the use of NSAIDS is over 30,000 a year.
quote:We dispute the practice of using aspirin as a blood thinner throughout our articles on cardiovascular disease, but right here we will give you Dr Val Fuster's take on aspirin (and other anticoagulants) because aspirin (and the others) affect only one pathway to coagulation:
Aspirin interferes with only one of the three pathways of platelet activation - the one dependent on thromboxane A. The other two pathways -- one dependent on ADP and collagen and the other on thrombin -- remain unaffected, as does the coagulation system. On the other hand, current anticoagulant agents interfere only partially with the coagulation system and do not affect platelet activation. It is not surprising, therefore, that aspirin or anticoagulants cannot completely prevent coronary thrombotic events, although the relative antithrombotic effectiveness of both types of antithrombotic agents is clinically similar.
Hemex is refered to:
quote:One more note on testing: one of the best labs, recommended by the best physicians, is Hemex Laboratories in Phoenix, AZ. Should you have chronic fatigue or fibromyalgia and your doctor says it's all in your head, this is the laboratory that will show you it's all in your blood. Their tagline is: Helping to solve blood curdling mysteries.
quote: Dr Gordon does concede that we might have to put a patient on Heparin and antibiotics at first just to get a handle on the coagulation problem. Thin the blood and attack the infections. But after this, let's use supplements that are natural and needed and we can slowly wean the patient off of the other drugs.
quote:[David] Berg [of Hemex labs in Phoenix, AZ] has shown that a coagulation panel that is more sensitive than hitherto available is capable of distinguishing healthy from unhealthy subjects with over 95% accuracy. In fact, hypercoagulability is associated with a large number of chronic diseases.
quote: It appears to be surprisingly common and those at risk need long-term effective but safe lifelong anticoagulation treatment. Aspirin alone is too weak and too dangerous to handle this epidemic of hypercoagulability. It has also recently been reported to be too dangerous for men with hypertension to take on a regular basis. Effective aspirin substitutes include pancreatic enzymes (Wobenzym�) and properly stabilized bromelain supplements, preferably used in combination with garlic, Ginkgo, and salmon oil. A polysaccharide/ chelation based product, containing EDTA, also acts as an effective aspirin substitute and affordably helps to meet this nearly universal need.
quote: Aspirin and Coumadin affect one facet of the clotting process only. However, time and again we see that nutritional protocols are not only more effective in the long run but much safer. Dr Valls-Serra treated 245 patients with systemic enzymes and witnessed substantially better therapeutic outcome than with conventional anticoagulants and vasoactive substances. You can call Longevity Plus (800-580-7587) and request a copy of the article: Aspirin vs. Enzymes, by Dr Garry Gordon.
This information was reported in 2002, since the numerous other enzymes proven to be far more effective then those found in Wobenzyme are now available too. Nattokinase, Lumbrokinase and Rechts-Regulat
[ 10. October 2007, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Jellybelly ]
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Dawn in VA
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Hi all. I'm currently on coumadin (warfarin) for a PICC line blood clot. Get this:
I was taking an anti-inflammatory powdered blend prescribed by my nutritionist. However, when I told her about going on warfarin, she had a hunch and called the company who supplies that blend. They told her to tell me to STOP taking their product while I was on warfarin b/c of the anticoagulation effects of two ingredients in that blend. What were those anticoagulants, you ask? TUMERIC AND CURCUMIN.
-------------------- (The ole disclaimer: I'm not a doctor.) Posts: 1349 | From VA | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
Yes, I have taken the heparin for a little while, some months now and it DEFINITELY is a major player in me gaining back some energy and health.
My doc explains that it helps clean up the blood so that it travels and supplies oxygen. Course, I still feel like a zombie quite often just not as often!
I tried to convince them to do the baby aspirin instead and was told that no, I do not have a platelet problem but a very significant fibrin problem and so asprin will not be the thing.
The heparin has helped the medicince get to where it needs to go.
Of course I did not believe my doctor about any of this ans was skeptical from the start but I opted to try it and I am very glad I did. Warfarin, it turned out, was not something my liver was going to be able to detox.
Here's some info on how all this electromagnetic garbage we are all drowning in affects the immune system in all of us, especially immuno-compromised Lymies. Professor Johansson told me I should share this with others:
(Neither can I answer ALL the questions on that great educational television show!!!)
This is all a fine balance. We need our blood vessels to be flexible - to dilate at times and to constrict at other times depending on oxygen demands.
When there is too much "oxidative stress" going on (and there is!), the free radicals oxidize our (lousy) low density lipoproteins (LDL) and they become "rancid". They react with excess calcium to form plaques that line our arteries (hardening of the arteries). Now the arteries can't expand and contract like they are supposed to and they are "hard" and narrower.
Placques are not smooth, but are rough, and red blood cells can accumulate on the rough edges to form clots which can disloge and cause a stroke or heart attack.
Free radicals are good and are definitely needed, but too many are very harmful...esp. if they oxidize LDL.
Once again...a very delicate balance!
To complicate the matters, timing makes a huge difference too.
Bb evades the immune system by locking onto a glycoprotein that is in our plasma. This glycoprotein binds to our defense cells so we don't attack them . Bb takes advantage by locking onto the glycoprotein that is on the cells of our defense cells (mast, neutrophil, etc.)
Putting this another way: A circulating glycoprotein attaches to our defensive cells and Bb binds to that glycoprotein on the wall of our defensive cells.
And another: Bb binds to a glycoprotein which has locked onto our DEFENSE cells.
I wonder if giving MORE of that glycoprotein would work?
Would Bb lock onto the ADDITIONAL and simply leave the system?
This seems contrary, but is exactly what researchers found out about the SARS virus.
It (SARS virus) locks onto an enzyme of ours.
The researchers gave MORE of that enzyme, and the virus locked onto the EXCESS and the virus did not go on to cause respiratory distress.
Rather, it was eliminated by the body!
Now...when I have time...I'm going to try to find out exactly what that glycoprotein is.
If Bb will attach to that excess glycoprotein, now our NKT cells should be able to "identify" it.
Our NK T cells (subset of T cells) are supposed to recognize when we have a "sugar (glyco) gobbling" pathogen in our system. One that has a LPS layer.
Ancora Imparo.
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Jellybelly
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Glad to hear it is proving useful to you PT!!!
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I can't believe I just said no to Marnie......sorry. 
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