Topic: Buhners Protocol...........what brand of herbs are You using?
robi
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5547
posted
WOndering for folks who are doing this is yu are using Raintree or anything from BioPure?
Any tips,hints, suggestions welcome.
robi
-------------------- Now, since I put reality on the back burner, my days are jam-packed and fun-filled. ..........lily tomlin as 'trudy' Posts: 2503 | From here | Registered: Apr 2004
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SForsgren
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posted
I use Polygonum from BioPure. Cat's Claw from Raintree is also a good option.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Michelle M
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posted
Off topic here, begging your pardon! Robi -- trying to PM you and your box is full. Wanna clean house, please!!!!????
Thanks!
Michelle
Posts: 3193 | From Northern California | Registered: Apr 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Hi:
I used Raintree Cat's Claw in the very beginning. But now I use StarWest Botanicals brand.
I buy ALL my herbs in one pound bulk now. Execept for Resveratrol which I can only get in 3.5 ounce jars from 1stChineseHerbs.com.
I get as much as I can from 1st Chinese in the Plum Flower Brand they handle in bulk. MOST of the Plum Flower Brand is Vacuum/Hydrogen packed with NO preservatives, No Sulpher, etc.. So I get as much of that as I can. You should keep it refrigerated after opening though.
I keep the bulk refrigerated, but not the finished capsules. Did I say I fill my own capsules on everything now except Vitamin E. Which I buy from Wonder Laboratories. I Only buy their NATURAL ones. NOT the synthetic.
I also buy a lot of my herbs from StarWest Botanicals from California. They have good prices and it appears their quality is excellent. Do not buy their Sarsaparilla that is from India though, as it is rumored that all Sarsaparilla from India is adulterated.
They also have it from Mexico and I think Puerto Rico or an Island close by. I forget right now. CHeck it out on their website you can Google it.
WonderLabs and Starwest both have the idenctical capsule machines. Only Wonderlabs has a little better price on it. I use ONLY veggie capsules now. Though I used the bovine gelatin capsules in the beginning and I am still alive. I think.
henson2
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 463
posted
Hi Robi,
I am just now starting NutraMedix's brand of Samento.
It comes TOA-free, and I know that Buhner makes a point of saying it does not have to be TOA-free.
This was simply the brand that I was most easily able to find. It is a small bottle, and I am just starting out slowly, you know, one drop in a glass of water, building up gradually.
Want to keep track of how we do on it?
Thinking about you, Robi. Hoping that you're doing better and not feeling as bad as a number of weeks ago.
(((Healing thoughts)))
Posts: 1066 | From East Coast | Registered: Dec 2000
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5dana8
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7935
posted
hi Robi
Biopure is too expensive for me.
Raintree is a good brand and I tend to trust their products.
I sometimes get from iherb too when I am not feeling rich. It's now called papanature.com
Take care
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
I personally agree, BioPure is very expensive. IF you are bucks up, go for it. I for one cannot. I would have to give up some herbs to do so and definitely do NOT want to do that.
I only buy in bulk now, like I posted above, and THAT is many times cheaper yet.
Raintree IS very good and Buhner does recommend them. However you can buy raintree much cheaper elsewhere than from Raintree themselves at retail. There are many wholesalers out there that will sell to you.
But I am confident that StarWest Botanicals is ALSO very good. Stephen Buhner recommended them to me for their machine and I tried some of their herbs too, and now buy as much as I can from them.
But the Plum Flower brand from 1stChineseHerbs.com is also top of the line from what I have been able to gather. And you only have to buy $40 at a time to get FREE shipping. Course they mostly only have the herbs in bulk. I get my Stephania Root, Hu Zhang (Resveratrol), and a couple others from them. They also handle some of the StarWest brand on some herbs.
Otherwise you can get capsules already made from Vitacost, or Herbs-Wholesale, etc.. Though they have GOOD wholesale prices, expect to pay about 4 to 5 times more than if you buy in bulk and encapsulate your own. AND it is EASY to do while watching TV or whatever you do in your "spare" time.
posted
Concerning buying the herbs you guys have a pretty nice situation in the US.
In the EU the situation is much more difficult. Especially in Germany quite some of the "stronger" herbs are not allowed to be traded freely outside the pharmacies (because they are medicines). This doesn't mean that they are considered as medicines by the insurance companies. Of course they are not.
So it ends up with taking several hundreds % or even more than 1000% by the pharmacies for their good name.
Ordering from outside the EU would cost much shipping fee and is provoking problems with the customs authorities. Hardynaka told a story about that in this forum.
Otherwise you have to be tricky spending many, many, many hours online to find some sneaky paths.
There seems to be powerful interest to keep people on the pharma stuff...
Posts: 71 | From germany | Registered: Mar 2006
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liz28
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posted
I use vinpocetine from Source Naturals and Jarrow.
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GiGi
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Member # 259
posted
Learn how to make tinctures if you can't afford to buy them. I do it all the time - for whatever ails.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
GiGi: I make tinctures of Red Root and Periwinkle. WHAT other herbs that Buhner recommends taking in capsule form do you prefer to take as a tincture?
I frequently ship herbals/teas/supplements to family and friends in Germany. Private to private has never been a problem with customs, etc.
Also have often had items not available here sent to us by pharmacy via friends or family members. Never a problem.
Often you can get items in Holland if you look around a bit.
Take care.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
PS: I take at this time:
Sarsaparilla, Cat's Claw, whole herb; Devil's Claw, Hu Zhang (resveratrol), Garlic, Olive Leaf, was taking Oregano ground powder, now taking Oregano Oil; Artemisia annua, Coptis, Stinging Nettle Leaf; Milk Thistle. All in veggie capsules. I also was taking Andrographis till last Thursday. Will take again later.
quote:Originally posted by GiGi: Learn how to make tinctures if you can't afford to buy them. I do it all the time - for whatever ails.
Take care.
A receipe for making tinctures/extracts of herbs can be found in _______Duke's book(paperback), entitled something like "green pharmacy."
Duke was the u.s.a. governmental botonist/herbalist, and he has his own website i believe.
herbalist/author, Leslie Bremness has tincture receipes.
Posts: 2708 | Registered: Feb 2005
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henson2
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 463
posted
Ok, very naive question: how do you fill your own capsules? Where do you get the capsules?
What other forms are the herbs available in, if you have trouble digesting capsules? Can you get them preservative free, etc?
(((Thank you))) for your help - I am just beginning with this.
Posts: 1066 | From East Coast | Registered: Dec 2000
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Henson:
THere are NO bad questions. Just bad answers sometimes.
You can fill the empty capsules with a very simple manual machine that you can get either from Wonder Laboratories OR StarWest Botanicals. You can Google either one of them. Wonder Labs is slightly cheaper. BOTH have empty capsules. I started out with Gelatin caps, but have switched to veggie caps. Only because I FEEL a little safer with them IF there is ever a problem with bovine products in this country. Veggie caps are MORE expensive though. So you decide.
You can get the machine in THREE sizes "0" "00" and "000". I have both the smaller "0" size and the medium "00" size. These are the machines that fill 24 capsules at a time. You probably can get them elsewhere also.
IF you want to deal with your bulk herbs from just one company, and get your machine and capsules from the same one, go to StarWest. THEY have most of it, but NOT the Resveratrol which I get from First Chinese Herbs. I also get my Stephania Root from 1st Chinese.
WonderLabs do not have herbs in BULK that I know of. At least I can't find them. However, THEY DO have the LOWEST PRICES on VEGGIE capsules, by far, so I buy them from them and also bought one of my machines from them. BOTH companies handle the same brand machine. Starwest ALSO has another manual machine that does 50 capsules at a time, but I wouldn't get it IF I were YOU. I did, and haven't used it yet, as I would have to order another accessory for it to use it, and I am debating sending it back or getting the accessory. I don't really like the size and looks of it all that much. But your choice on that.
Consider shipping in everything too. And where you live in the country. WonderLabs is in Tennessee. StarWest is in California and 1st Chinese Herbs is in Washington. I am in Wisconsin so Wonderlabs gets stuff to me the quickest. I also get my NATURAL vitamine E from them. Also Ibuprofin. Their prices are excellent. Shipping IS reasonable and fast. But no FREE shipping.
StarWest does have free shipping but I believe it is $100 or more product at a time. Not a problem starting out for a bunch of different herbs, but could be later.
1st Chinese Herbs had free shipping on $35 or more, but just raised it to $40 or more. If you order online from them, be SURE to click on the free shipping in the box at the bottom of checkout or you will be charged for it.
Ist Chinese are very nice to deal with. Very helpful IF you email them questions.
Also, Nutrition Wholesale is very nice to deal with. But they don't have herbs in bulk. Mostly vitamins. I get my C-Salts from them in bulk, the biggest bottle they have. And it too is free shipping.
C-Salts let you take LARGE amounts of vitamin C which is important in dealing with Lyme. It is EEEEEEEEEASY on the stomach. As a matter of fact it was the only thing that could heal my very painful stomach. I take it religiously now. I use it to make a drink to take my herbs with.
-------------------- When I feel blue . . . . . . its time to take another breath Posts: 296 | From East Coast | Registered: Aug 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
PS Henson:
You want the powder form IF you are going to fill your capsules without having to go to the trouble to GRIND them up yourself.
IF you are going to make tinctures, you want to buy the Cut and Sifted (C/F), form of the herbs.
Making tinctures is not hard, just a little time in the beginning AND you do NOT get instant finished product. You have to let it sit in the jar and shake it once a day for AT LEAST two weeks, preferably 4 to 6 weeks. I usually go the 6 weeks to get the most out of it. You will need to buy Vodka OR other clear grain alcohol to make the tincture and a jar with a cap that seals. One jar for each tincture you want to make.
You can use the Vodka straight up as it is 40% alcohol the way you buy it.
A small postal type scale is helpful also to weigh the herbs. Mine is digital which is very accurate, (I picked it up cheap used at a sale). But other small scales work also. Someone else may have other suggestions for one. You will not use a whole lot of herb at a time, unless you are making gallons of the tincture, which I doubt.
Any more questions, please ask. You WILL save a bundle on the herbs IF you do it yourself though. Course you may want to START out buying some herbs already encapsulated, then you can re-use the bottles for your own herbs. One brand I like is "Nature's Herbs" out of Utah, as THEY USE a brown GLASS bottle and glass is better for us than plastic too. At least that is what we are told.
I went to their site. However right off the bat, I noticed they do not handle some of the more important herbs that we need for treatment of Lyme and Babs.
Namely: Andrographis, Stephania Root, and Artemisia annua. They do have a form of Artemisia, but it is NOT the annua from what I can tell.
Artemisia annua is the ONLY form of Artemisia that has the necessary Artemisinin in it that we need for treating Babesia.
I will check their prices closer compared to my other suppliers, and see HOW they compare, including shipping. Though they did not seem high at first glance.
WHERE are they located? I forgot to look when I was on their site.
hardynaka
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8099
posted
Raintree sarsaparilla and cats claw. Excellent quality and cheap. You have to do your own caps.
Raintree site has a detailed explanation how to do tinctures yourself, for free. A few herbs are more efficient to be taken in ticture than in powder or tea. Like pau d'arco, because their active substances are soluble in alcohol but not in water. I tried all forms of pau d'arco (caps, tea, decoction) and ticnture is by far the best form.
Sarsaparilla and cats claw from Raintre both test positive by ART for me.
I haven't found a good/ unexpensive source for andrographis though. Still using Planetary Formulas, also good on ART, very potent (I have enough with 2-3 caps a day). Wonderful for arthritis (nothing else works if taken alone for me).
Garlic, still using Biopure or similar, expensive but the most efficient in my experience. I'm on a single caps a day (500mg), my maximum amount was only 3 a day (ART tested). So it pays!
An unexpensive Omega 3 supplement, good quality, purified, from Wonderlabs. Also tested good with ART, much cheaper than most brands.
Resveratrol brand Buhner recommended didn't test good on ART (but maybe it's just me).
artemisa annua whole herb from PUre Encapsulations tested good on ART, but a little expensive.
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I am just a few months into using herbs and have had some positive results at times.
Any thoughts on "Nature's Way" for Andrographis and Sarsaparilla Rt. and "Source Naturals" for Cat's Claw and Resveratrol? I buy these through vitacost.
I am willing to change if I find something better and cheaper. I have bought one herb in powder form and made the capsules by myself so I am open to that.
Thanks.
Posts: 59 | From Indiana | Registered: Jun 2006
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Stan: I used some herbs from Vitacost when I was using capsules, and used the brands you are talking about.
I didn't notice any difference one way or the other. However, I have found the very, very cheapest way to go is to put your own in capsules, by far. Remember you are PAYING for those bottles also. Plus the handling of the pills and bottles.
IF you have lots of money, then by all means go for it, as it does take time, as you have discovered by making a few of your own already.
I almost always make mine though when I am watching the NASCAR qualifying, practice and races on the weekends. I am a little ahead even from last week.
GiGi recommends NOT to use plastic for anything, IF I remember right. IF that turns your crank also, then buy some herbs such as Sarsaparilla and Devil's Claw, etc., in the Nature's Herbs brand, and save the dark amber GLASS bottles they come in for YOUR own capsules.
I can't remember what wholesale outfit I got them from, but it was probably Herbs-Wholesale or Vitacost, OR?? I could go back and see IF I can find the original invoice and get it to you, OR you could try and Google it.
Get what you can from WonderLabs as they seem to be the cheapest on MOST things.
henson2
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 463
posted
Thank you for all this helpful info. I really appreciate the time you took to write this.
Warmest good wishes to everyone to feel better soon!
Posts: 1066 | From East Coast | Registered: Dec 2000
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robi
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5547
posted
Ok ........ I am not feeling so well and have had a hard time gathering all this.
So far I have:
Resveratrol from Source Naturals Nature's Way Andrographis Livon Labs Lypo-Spheric Vitamin C
On order: Cat's claw from Raintree
Still need:
Red Root Tincture ..... Buhner doesn't rec. a particular brand so not sure what to get .... and I don't want to make it. One place I found sells it for about $8.00 an ounce. At .5 to 1.5 teaspoons 4 x a day a day I could go broke on this. Have I misunderstood something here? 1 ounce is only about 6 teaspoons. Thats like an ounce every 1 to 3 days. Suggestions?
Stephania ....... How much of this do I take?
I am ust havig trouble managing #'s and figures. A clear concise dosage reccomendation would sure help .... and a good source. Hopefully less $$ than BioPure.
Thanks, robi
-------------------- Now, since I put reality on the back burner, my days are jam-packed and fun-filled. ..........lily tomlin as 'trudy' Posts: 2503 | From here | Registered: Apr 2004
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Robi:
NOW you see WHY I make mine? I was broke from it. Still costs but only a fraction of getting it already made. Tinctures are NOT all that hard to make.
As far as the Stephania Root, I don't think anyone encapsulates it commercially.
I buy it by the pound, actually 500 grams which is 17.62 ounces, IF I remember right, FROM 1st Chinese Herbs. It is #25746P. For $12.99 for the pound. IF you get other things from them, so your order comes to $40 or more it is free shipping. I get my Resveratrol in bulk from them too. As Resveratrol is VERY expensive. It is called Hu Zhang. BUT it is NOT in pounds. IT is a concentrate powder in 100 gram or 3.5 ounce jars. They have high quality mercandise. Buhner recommends them for things you can't get at other places. They are good people to deal with.
Hope this helps you. BUHNER states HOW MUCH to take in his book Healing Lyme. Start out slow and ramp up to the maximum IF you can handle the maximum. I never got to Buhner's Maximum of 4 capsules, 4 times a day. Instead I got up to 4 capsules, 3 times a day. I did fine too. Then started cutting back recently.
Still was okay, till I went on Coptis, which I was told is a strong herb and to be cautious. I should have been told it is a VERY strong herb, and be extremely cautious. I started on 3 pills a day, and should have probably been on ONE (1) pill a day, then slowely ramp up. I herxed like I have never herxed before. I stopped it two days ago, and most of my other herbs temporarily also. I am feeling better tonight, though not good yet.
I will probably start on it again, but MUCH slower this time. And I was told by 1st Chinese that I should NOT take Andrographis with Coptis either. They are going to call me tomorrow to give me more info.
quote: If encapsulating the herb, use one-to-four "00" capsules, 3-4 times daily beginning at the lowest dose and working up (as with the core protocol).
Maybe this could be expressed more clearly.
I guess (please somebody corrects me, if I'm wrong) a 00 capsule would contain about 0.5g of the herb or a bit more. This would mean 1.5-2g daily in the first week, 3-4g in the second, 4.5-6g in the third, 6-8g in the forth week.
Posts: 71 | From germany | Registered: Mar 2006
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I had checked the "Kaiser Apotheke". I even posted the link in another thread. They do have the TCM herbs, but they are expensive. The prices in the list are for 10g each. So 1kg comes up to 100$ average.
So it's maybe a practical idea for Europeans who have friends in the US, to send the herbs private to private from the US. But even practiced in that way people got problems with artimisinin @ german customs.
Anyway, in the end I got most of what I wanted & hopefully all I need.
Posts: 71 | From germany | Registered: Mar 2006
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I use artemesia from Holley Pharm - in capsules, not bulk. I only use it a few days every two months.
-------------------- When I feel blue . . . . . . its time to take another breath Posts: 296 | From East Coast | Registered: Aug 2005
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Carol in PA
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 5338
posted
I've debated whether or not I should post this, but here goes....
I recently ordered cat's claw capsules from Rain-tree.
As I had ordered some back in December, I get emails occasionally, and had received one that offered a 15% discount.
When I went to the site, I found that the shipping charge for 12 bottles was $10.00. If you wanted expedited shipping the charge was about $23. I didn't need this, as I still had half a bottle left.
I placed the order, and got the email confirming it. A couple days later, I got the email confirming that the product had been shipped.
I had placed orders on other websites that same evening, and didn't bother to open the emails until the shipping confirmation arrived.
WELL!
I found that Rain-tree had charged me for expedited shipping.
I emailed them, explaining that I had not asked for that, and please delete the extra charge.
Kristen in Customer Service, said that they had already paid to have the cat's claw shipped, and there was nothing they could do.
I emailed again, saying that I had NOT requested expedited shipping.
Kristen said I must have, because that's what they got on the order.
And there it stands.
Carol
Posts: 6947 | From Lancaster, PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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robi
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5547
posted
Carol, Did you ask for a supervisior or someone else who could change the decision. Also, you can dispute this with your credit card company.
robi
-------------------- Now, since I put reality on the back burner, my days are jam-packed and fun-filled. ..........lily tomlin as 'trudy' Posts: 2503 | From here | Registered: Apr 2004
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Carol: I have NEVER bought directly from Raintree. i HAVE used their products, BUT I found I could get them wholesale from other suppliers. So I thought, WHY pay more for the exact same thing.
I take enough herbs, that I do everything in my power to get FREE shipping.
I didn't think that WonderLabs gave free shipping, and maybe they didn't before. But I noticed last night that they had free shipping with orders of $100 or more, so I just oredered a few more capsules as I will use them anyway eventually. Hey, $7 bucks is 7 bucks.
ALSO, on talking to the very nice gal at 1st Chinese for quite a while today, I discovered that THEY have many more of the essential herbs that we need for Lyme, AND she is happy to steer you in the right direction on what combos to order too.
I am going to send her my total regimen and she is going to show me what is GOOD about what I am taking and what is not so good. AND ALSO WHAT times of day to take WHAT herbs, and mixing and not mixing them.
I will report in more later next week when I get all the info.
posted
777: You are right in saying a "bit more" for the "00" capsules.
From what I have read, the "0" capsules are in the range of about 450 to 525mg per capsule, depending on the herb and how well packed, etc.. And the "00" capsules range in the 600 to 700+ mg per capsule, again how packed and what herb.
Not ALL people can start at HIS recommended protocol though. I had severe stomach problems before I started on his protocol, so had to start even slower. I took only ONE pill a DAY the first week, then TWO pills a day, THEN in week three it was three pills a day, week four it was 6 pills a day, week 5, 9 pills a day, week six 12 pills a day. I never went beyond the 4 pills, three times a day though, as I have taken them always with a meal because of the stomach issues. And I didn't want to eat 4 meals a day.
I no longer have the stomach issues though. But, I still take them with meals at THIS time. I took my maximum protocol for about 4 months, but now have cut back some. I have mixed and matched the capsule sizes in cutting back.
Though, Stephen recommends the "00" size, I have considered the "0" size as normal, because that is the size you usually get when you order your pills already encapsulated from most of these companies.
I then when reducing my protocol, consider three "00" pills the same as 4 "0" pills. NOT exactly but pretty close, I feel.
I now just ordered 5,000 "0" empty capsules and 1,000 "00" empties from WonderLabs. I will be using mostly "0" size now. SOME herbs are better IF you use the "0" size because they are so strong. I am learning this, some of it the hard way.
Plus you can "fine tune" your protocol easier with the "0" size, or in combination with the "00" size.
Some of it is experimental, even IF you follow Buhner's protocol exactly. Since HE does not say exactly HOW LONG to stay at maximum, nor exactly how fast to ramp down. And he also says, IF you "feel" some symptoms returning, to ramp back up a little again, for awhile.
posted
What a great thread full of information! A few weeks ago when this one was new I was feeling foggy, so I'm only now able to read and process a lot of the information. I'm putting together the pieces to put myself on this protocol. Still need to poke around a few other websites based on the info here. I'm ready to do this though, LOL! Trying to compare best prices versus shipping costs, etc. is killing me.
How are people doing on this regimen? Robi, how are you these days?
-------------------- Getting older is when we would rather not have a good time than have to get over it. - Oscar Wilde Posts: 386 | From Radnor, PA - where the ticks run free | Registered: May 2006
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posted
I just commenced Andrographis tincture from www.biopureus.com a few days ago, starting slowly at one drop in 8 ounces of water spiked with an electrolyte solution, also from the same company.
The herx effect occurs within a few hours and I feel like crap. The only problem with taking the tincture is that andro is very bitter herb and thus there will be an upper limit as to number of drops can be tolerated.
A switch will be made to capsules of the standardized powder as per Buhner's book, but at least I know that this stuff works.
Has anyone else tried the tincture with similar results?
Posts: 59 | From Canada | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
I started out on the Andrographis TABLETS as they were cheaper than the capsules. i bought 5 bottles in the beginning and could hardly wait till they were gone. COuld hardly finish them off. YUK!
I encapsulate my own now, have for a long time. I have never noticed any herxes from Andrographis. But now Coptis, THAT was a different story. I had to quit it after a few days. I do plan to go back to it, maybe later this week and start slower and see what happens. IF I can't take it, what a waste, unless someone else can use it. Different people can take different herbs better than others. So some of it is experimental.
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though, LOL! Trying to compare best prices versus shipping costs, etc. is killing me.
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