posted
I just started testing the probiotics that I have been using, and I was shocked to find that some brands were dead! I put a small amount of lukewarm milk in the bottom of an empty yogurt cup and emptied a capsule of each probiotic that I take into them to test for viability.
PB8 and Culterelle failed to grow anything at all. They were dead. (I keep them in the refer) I repeated it twice, and then I opened up another bottle to double check it. They were all dead..no growth.. I even put a little sugar in with the milk just in case that was the problem...Nothing happened, even after 24 hrs
I got the idea to do this after talking to a pharmacyst that warned me about it. It was his experience that a lot of the probiotics on the market are dead when you get them. He was telling me how good Pharmax probiotics were, that they were all human strains, not animal or soil based probiotics.
Enzymatic Therapy's Pearls tested good, as did Sedona Labs. I was using Rueteri, but I was out of them, so I couldn't test them. I will be testing all brands that I get in the future, and I will be calling the manufacturers for a refund on all the dead ones. I will be trying Threalac and Pharmax even tho they cost more than I want to spend. I will be testing those also to verify that they are worth the money.
Anyone that uses PB8 and Culterelle, you should test them to see if they work or not. Not only is it a waste of money, but it puts you at risk for yeast overgrowth and other intestinal dysbiosis. I would like to know what you find. I will be trying some new brands in the future and will report on them.
I am editing this today to add that I just talked to a lab tech at culterelle about why they didn't grow in milk, and how they could be tested. They said that their product does not like moisture, heat, or air, that it would not grow in milk. They are very secrative about their product and would not tell me anything more. I asked how it could possibly grow in the intestines then where there is a lot of moisture and heat. They said that they could not respond to that question, and referred me to look at Pub Med reports for studys that had been published about their results.
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
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SForsgren
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posted
Can you comment more on what you observe to determine that they are growing? What do you see in the milk? After how long? Do you keep the growth culture out of the refrigerator after you add the probiotic?
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I start off with lukewarm milk, add the probiotic and prebiotic if needed (PB8 has it's own), and then let it set out at room temp. I have a yogurt maker, and I tried that on the dead ungrowing bacteria also just in case it wasn't getting warm enough. All the bacteria should grow at room temp. It may take longer for some forms, but there should be some sign of growth. It should turn into the consistency of yogurt if it is viable. If the milk stays thin and watery, there is no growth. If you use too much milk, it will take longer to thicken. I only use 1/4" in the bottom of an empty individual yogurt cup for each capsule. The good bacteria thickened up after 6 to 8 hrs.
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
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trails
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posted
would the enteric coating prohibit growth? Theralac (not threelac as you said you were going to test) and the pearls you have tested have some sort of coating or something to prevent it from being absorbed in the stomach. Would this change the experiment? pb8 doesnt have this from what i know.
Posts: 1950 | From New Mexico | Registered: Sep 2001
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AliG
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posted
Thanks for the heads up! I have Culturelle. I just checked and it expired last month. I'm testing anyway.
I also have some that should be good until next year. I'm checking that too.
I noticed that it's supposed to be refrigerated, but is kept on the shelf in the store. Maybe that's part of the problem?
Culturelle is supposed to have a coating too, but I would think it's the capsule shell. I emptied the capsule into the milk.
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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Jill E.
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posted
While I'm not using Culturelle at the moment, a nutritionist I used to see who researched everything carefully would only prescribe Culturelle.
He said it was the only one in a published probiotic study that had the amount of units and strains it it that it said.
I was thinking about adding Culturelle back into my regimen along with some other brands, so this is all very interesting.
Jill
-------------------- If laughter is the best medicine, why hasn't stand-up comedy cured me? Posts: 1773 | From San Diego | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
The enteric coating will still dissolve in the milk...it just takes longer. Pull them apart if you can and pour it into the milk. The Enzymatic Pearls were too hard to break apart, so I put them in whole and they dissolved. They were fine.
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Test the THERAlac. IT's AWESOME! Compared to it, PB8 is indeed NOTHING!! I can attest to that fact!
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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oxygenbabe
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posted
I tried using culturelle to make yogurt a few years ago--it was dead. My natren bifidus and acidophilus made yogurt just fine. The bifidus yogurt was rather sweet.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Now this really makes me mad. I tried this with my PB8 and the milk is still liquid.
I switched to PB8 based on a consumer reports report. I guess they had the product right from the company.
What a waste of money and worst yet, my kids were taking this while they were on antibiotics.
-------------------- BTW - I am NOT a medical professional - just speaking from MY own personal experience. Posts: 266 | From Philadelphia | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I know what you mean. We need the probiotics to keep the damage from abx under check, and most of us take it for granted that they work. I have been taking Culterelle for years and spending a lot of money for it. All the time it wasn't doing me any good. Lucky for me that I always use a combination of different ones so that I was at least getting some beneficial bacteria in me.
I started using PB-8 because it had some good strains in it, and because it was a good deal. Turns out that it wasn't a good deal at all. Just dead powder!
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
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I've checked but haven't found any info on kids using it. Any help would be appreciated.
All My Best, Scott
-------------------- BTW - I am NOT a medical professional - just speaking from MY own personal experience. Posts: 266 | From Philadelphia | Registered: May 2005
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timaca
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Member # 6911
posted
Just a note on this....if the milk is not kept between 90 and 115 degrees for several hours, the probiotics will not have a chance to do their thing and the experiment is not accurate.
In making yogurt, the bacteria and milk must be kept between those temperatures while the yogurt is being made. Below 90 degrees, the bacteria is inactive. Above 115 degrees they are killed.
So would be the case with the probiotic experiment that is suggested in the above posts. Unless you kept the milk between 90 and 115 degrees, the experiment is pretty useless.
Timaca
Posts: 2872 | From above 7,000 ft in a pine forest | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
"In making yogurt, the bacteria and milk must be kept between those temperatures while the yogurt is being made. Below 90 degrees, the bacteria is inactive."
This is not true. The bacteria will just grow more slowly at lower temps. I have left them out for up to 24 hrs. There was still no growth. If you read what I wrote, I also explained that I used a yogurt maker to double check the experiment when it failed to grow at room temp. There was still no growth when kept at 100 to 109*
The good probiotics grew well even at room temp when put in warm milk to activate them within 8 hrs.
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
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timaca
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posted
Hmmm....interesting...I got my info from a yogurt making handbook. I had read that you had run the experiment too in a yogurt maker. However, those trying it just at home might not use the yogurt maker, and not know that it needs to be kept warm. Did you try the probiotics straight from the fridge in your yogurt maker? Or did you take the ones that didn't grow at room temp and then stick them in your yogurt maker? If you did the latter, the bacteria could have died before getting to the correct temp....
I did try the experiment using all kinds of probiotics, with warm milk, but without a yogurt maker to keep them warm. Nothing grew, even the Theralac.
I doubt that they are all bad. My guess is more along the lines of them needing to be kept warm. Also, making "yogurt" is different than populating the gut with good bacteria...so we could be missing something else in this experiment.
At any rate, I use 5 different probiotic strains and mix them up...just in case one of them is bad.
Timaca
Posts: 2872 | From above 7,000 ft in a pine forest | Registered: Feb 2005
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ConnieMc
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Member # 191
posted
Well that is interesting, as I have taken PB8 exclusively for 5 years now and have NEVER had any trouble with yeast. Not even a vaginal yeast infection. I have taken it all the way through numerous antibiotic protocols, including IV. It works for me. So I will not change. Are there others out there like me? Just wondering. I have always been extremely pleased with the product.
Posts: 2275 | From NC | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
I've never tested my probiotics and find this very interesting. Thanks for the suggestion.
In the past I have used Jarrow, Culurelle and primal defense.
Just based on how yeasty I seemed to be when using each I thought the culturelle was the only one that was effective. I have spent lots of $$ on it and am sad to see that it was not alive in your experiments. I was just about to go buy some.
After reading the Consumer Reports article a while ago, I switched from taking supplments to fermenting my own saur kraut and trying to eat a little of it every day. Also tried to eat store bought yogurt or kefir every day. Lately I've been worrying about my gall bladder bc of the IV rocephin I'm taking and was thinking about switching back to culturelle from yogurt/kefir to avoid the fats in those.
No easy answers ever -eh.
Thanks for sharing the information!!
Wishing y'all wellness and strength~ Pomegranite
Posts: 309 | From CA | Registered: Nov 2002
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posted
"Or did you take the ones that didn't grow at room temp and then stick them in your yogurt maker? If you did the latter, the bacteria could have died before getting to the correct temp"....
I took new ones out of the refer and put them in new milk, and then into the yogurt maker. But it wouldn't have mattered if I had used the old culture. The only thing that would have killed them is too much heat, and that didn't happen when they were sitting out at 75*.
These bacteria are always growing at some rate unless they are frozen or dead. They are growing very slowly when you keep them in the fridge. That's why they have a shelf life...even the stabilized ones like PB 8.
"I doubt that they are all bad. My guess is more along the lines of them needing to be kept warm."
I don't know, but it looks like people are really getting ripped off here. When you think about it, how many people every even think about testing their probiotics for viability? We all take it for granted that we are getting a good product.
And if this were true, why would some test good at all? I recently got a new batch of Enz Pearls. They tested bad. Now this doesn't have anything to do with keeping them warm because the first batch that I had tested were fine. They grew at room temp within 8 hrs and formed a nice yogurt consistency. The new batch did nothing at all. I tried it for 24 hrs at room temp, and then repeated it with new Pearls and new milk using the yogurt maker. Nothing. They are dead. This is the same product, just different batches. The old ones still test fine.
I also just got some VSL #3 and they tested fine also. If the probiotics will not grow in a warm friendly milk environmenet, then think how much more difficult it would be for them to grow in a hostile human gut that is full of acids, enzymes,pathogenic organisms, and who knows what else.
Connie, I'm not saying that every single bottle of PB-8 or Culterelle is bad. But I am saying that the ones that I have tested are, and they people would be wise to do their own testing to make sure that they are getting what they hope they are, and what they need.
posted
My 14 yr.old son takes 1 Theralac capsule in the evening and no problems. You might want to contact the company if you have questions - I did and they responded with a phone call.
Posts: 8981 | From Illinois | Registered: May 2006
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Areneli
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posted
I admire creativity of the author of the thread.
Still, please remember that not all good bacteria produce lactic acid that is necessary to see the reaction.
Posts: 1538 | From Planet Earth | Registered: Jan 2005
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timaca
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posted
Yes, Arneli, I agree with you. I thought this would make a fabulous science experiment for some kid!
But, I also wondered about your point...which bacteria actually make the yogurt consistency, and is that what we need for our gut? Or do some of the probiotics have live bacteria in them that wouldn't make any sort of "yogurt" in the experiment that we are trying...but are still alive and good bacteria for us to be ingesting.
It would be interesting to run this by a biochemist.
I suppose someone could call one of the companies and ask how we can tell if the bacteria in a given bottle are alive are not.
Timaca
Posts: 2872 | From above 7,000 ft in a pine forest | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
The soil based bacteria like primal defense may have a different reaction, but all the ones that I have tested are of the lactobacillus species.
Kefir has a much more diverse make up of different strains of probies and friendly yeast, and it makes a nice yogurt consistency also. Of course you can believe what you want. "The Emperor Has No Clothes Syndrome"
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
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oxygenbabe
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Member # 5831
posted
My recollection when we made yogurt is you heat up the milk to about 110 degrees, and then you put in the probiotics and put them in the oven with the oven off--its still warm in the oven because of the pilot light. I could be wrong this was a few years ago. In any case we followed typical directions for yogurt. The only dead thing was culturelle, totally dead, wouldn't grow a thing. The bifidus, interestingly, made a sort of soft yogurt that was sweeter rather than tart. I think firm yogurts use lactic-acid producing bacteria and also thermophilus, which grows quickly.
That someone else would have the same problem a few years later (dead culturelle) is pretty telling.
I use customprobiotics--I should try making some yogurt from them and see what happens Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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timaca
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6911
posted
Note: only gas ovens have a pilot light. Electric ovens do not...in case you want to try the experiment via ovens...
Timaca
Posts: 2872 | From above 7,000 ft in a pine forest | Registered: Feb 2005
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timaca
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
Here's an interesting link to making yogurt from a biochemist:
Timaca
Posts: 2872 | From above 7,000 ft in a pine forest | Registered: Feb 2005
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TerryK
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Member # 8552
posted
Part of the equation has to do with how the product was handled by the merchant and in shipping. Most manufacturers state the viable organisms in the product at the time of shipping. That does not mean that the merchant handles the product appropriately. iherb is one of the merchants who ships their probiotics with ice packs so as to keep the product viable. If the merchant stores the product in a hot warehouse, this could also affect quality. Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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I just recieved my latest shipment of probies from Iherb. They did send them on ice, and they got here in only one day. I got some of the Enz Pearls, and also some Rueteri. Both of these tested dead however. I did it both ways....a couple of times each. Nothing. Both brands have Lactobacillus Acidophilus bacteria in them that make the milk into a yogurt. My previous batch of E. Pearls were good. It isn't that they weren't shipped right. I think that it has to do with other things. I'm sure that Iherb stores them properly also. I don't think that it is their fault. They are allowing me to return the products for a full refund.
I use to make a lot of yogurt because I thought that that was the best way, but then I kind of got tired of having to make it all the time, so I stopped. I started making it again along with kefir. I'm tired of spending big bucks on products that don't work, or are not consistent. Homemade yogurt and kefir costs much much less than probiotic capsules, and you can see for sure before you use it that you are getting real viable bacteria every time. The proof is in the thickness.
For those of you that would argue that yogurt cannot compare to the billions of bacteria that you can get from some probiotics, I am putting in the following article that would argue otherwise.
"The Great Yogurt (and Kefir) Conspiracy
If you're a health conscious person, you've probably seen the hype over probiotic supplements. However, some of the literature from the probiotic supplement manufacturers has become a little overzealous. These manufacturers are forgetting their roots, in that yogurt, kefir, and other fermented foods serve as the basis for their entire industry. We asked ourselves, is it fair for a probiotic supplement manufacturer or reseller to produce literature against yogurt, kefir, and other fermented milk products in order to increase their market share? Here's what we found:
Claim 1. "Our product contains 15 billion bacteria at the time of manufacture. It would take ten tubs of yogurt and a dozen bottles of kefir to get the same amount of bacteria."
To answer this claim we went digging into the scientific literature. From several different references, we were able to determine an average concentration of yogurt. Homemade yogurt that is fermented for 24 hours, as recommended in the book Breaking the Vicious Cycle, will have an average concentration of 3 billion cfu/mL of yogurt. What does this mean? Well, if you were to eat a small bowl (500 ml) of 24 hour fermented homemade yogurt, you would receive 1.5 trillion beneficial bacteria - 100 times more bacteria than a 15 billion capsule.
Furthermore, freshly made kefir can have an average microbial count as high as 10 billion cfu/ml. This includes a mixture of various bacteria and yeast strains. This means that a 500 ml glass of homemade kefir could contain as many as 5 trillion beneficial microorganisms or even more!
Claim 2. "Our probiotics have more bacteria than commercial yogurt and kefir."
We wrote to several yogurt manufacturers to see what the standards were. The National Yogurt Association has set the standard for commercial yogurt with live cultures as: ``Refrigerated yogurt must contain at least 100 million cultures per gram at the time of manufacture, and at least 10 million cultures per gram at consumption (i.e. throughout shelf life).'' In their response to our inquiry, Stonyfield Farm stated that their yogurt far exceeds this standard, ``Stonyfield Farm yogurt consistently far exceeds the NYA minimum culture counts (hundreds of billions).'' At a minimum, depending on shelf life, the manufacturer, and other factors, one would receive 5 billion bacteria in a small bowl of commercial yogurt. Because of the variability of commercial yogurts, shelf lives, and lactose contents, we recommend fermenting your own yogurt for 24 hours.
We were not able to find any information on commercial kefir at this time.
Claim 3. "Our X technology (enteric coated capsules, special matrix, etc.) allows the bacteria to survive the trip down your Gastrointestinal (GI) Tract. The bacteria in yogurt and kefir have no protection and will not survive."
Again, to answer this claim we checked the scientific literature. Do fermented milk products have any properties that might help the bacteria survive in your GI tract? The answer is yes. Fermented milk contains many substances that nourish and protect the lactobacillus species. A recent study demonstrated the ability of calcium phosphate to protect lactobacillus acidophilus from bile acids but had no effect on salmonella. Milk products also serve as excellent buffering agents and will help neutralize stomach acidity. A common recommendation from poison centers is to drink milk when confronted with a poison situation. Furthermore, the bacteria in yogurt are alive and well, not in a dormant cycle as the bacteria in probiotic supplements are, making them more fit to adapt to sudden changes in their local environment.
Claim 4. "Our probiotic supplements are more effective. Yogurt, kefir, and other fermented milk products are nothing more than fancy desserts."
All fermented milk products should be considered functional foods. Why? Because they are foods that functions as a health promoting substance. Probiotic supplements can only offer one thing: bacteria. Fermented milk offers so much more than just bacteria: minerals, vitamins, protein, amino acids, L-carnitine, fats, CLA, antimicrobial agents, and much more! A recent study demonstrated the ability of fermented milk to kill H. pylori infections when bacteria alone could not. Another study monitored two groups of people for allergy symptoms. The group that consumed yogurt on a daily basis suffered far less allergies than a control group. In addition, the complex microflora found in kefir have demonstrated a keen ability to stimulate our immune systems, ward of infections from bacteria such as salmonella, and in some cases, even fight cancer.
Conclusion:
There is little doubt that probiotic bacteria and fermented foods offer benefits to our health. Making kefir and yogurt at home can be a nutritious, healthy, and fun hobby. Probiotic supplements also offer health benefits and can be very convenient, especially when traveling. However, to claim that probiotic supplements are somehow superior to what you can make yourself is unfounded. Fermented foods offer the same benefits as probiotic supplements and sometimes more."
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
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cantgiveupyet
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Member # 8165
posted
When i went to the vitamin shoppe a few months ago the sales person told me that PB8 was the worst. Its not made from human strains so it doesnt work.
she recommended the kyolic brand.
-------------------- "Say it straight simple and with a smile."
"Thus the task is, not so much to see what no one has seen yet, But to think what nobody has thought yet, About what everybody sees."
-Schopenhauer
pos babs, bart, igenex WB igm/igg Posts: 3156 | From Lyme limbo | Registered: Oct 2005
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timaca
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6911
posted
Yes, it would be nice if one didn't have to subscribe to get their info. It's $27. I checked consumer reports online...it seems they have a probiotic article as well. Their yearly subscription is $26. I may join that, and post some of the brands of probiotics that did well. However, I'm leaving this morning for a trip, and won't be back for awhile. I don't have time to deal with it now.
Maybe I'll post back then.
In the meantime...very interesting and thought provoking discussion!
I packed 4 different probiotics for my trip. Hopefully, one of them is active!
Timaca
Posts: 2872 | From above 7,000 ft in a pine forest | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Here is the response I received from PB8's parent company.
Also, if you are going to use a gas oven, the ones with electronic ignition do not have free standing pilots.
Read Message From:"Info NNI" [Add to Address Book]
To: Subject:RE: Cultures Alive or Not Date:Monday, November 20, 2006 1:12:06 PM [View Source] Thank you for your e-mail.
The cultures that we use in PB8 are different than the cultures used to make yogurt, so the yogurt test will not work with PB8. We also test each and every lot of PB8 at Time of Manufacture for bacterial count and only those that meet specification are shipped.
Additionately, PB8 contains 14 billion CFU per 2 capsule at the time of manufacture.
Sincerely,
Info NNI Customer Service
-------------------- BTW - I am NOT a medical professional - just speaking from MY own personal experience. Posts: 266 | From Philadelphia | Registered: May 2005
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posted
If you look at the strains of bacteria listed on the bottle, you will see that they do in fact have the lactobacillus strains that do produce a yogurt consistency. It doesn't make any sense to me that they wouldn't at least produce some slight thickening of the milk. I think that their response is what would be expected to the average consumer calling in. I threw mine in the trash. I don't need to be swallowing extra bacteria if it's just dead.
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I just talked to a lab tech at culterelle about why they didn't grow in milk, and how they could be tested. They said that their product does not like moisture, heat, or air, that it would not grow in milk. They are very secrative about their product and would not tell me anything more. I asked how it could possibly grow in the intestines then where there is a lot of moisture and heat. They said that they could not respond to that question, and referred me to look at Pub Med reports for studys that had been published about their results.
Somebody asked about Theralac. They tested it and it didn't grow. I don't know what kind of bacteria they use. There also might be some kind of special way that their product works. I can't say at this point. It is obvious that everyone seems to love them, so they must be working. But at over $1 a pill, I think that I'll stick to homemade yogurt/Kefir.
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Consumer Reports, July 2005, lists PB8 in the "high" range. I don't remember how they tested the probiotics, as it has been a while since I've read that article.
Like Connie, I have to agree that after being on abx for many, many months, and only using PB8 at that time, six daily, it did a good job for keeping yeast at bay.
I have since added others, Theralac, which I find to be a great product. But, I have continued to buy PB8, also, as the price is affordable. On the days I don't take Theralac, I take PB8.
Other "high" ranges they list from this article are: Country Life Power Dophilus, Natrol Acidophilus, etc. In the "highest" range one they list is TwinLab Super Acidophilus. Of course, they list yogurts in the "highest". I expect that's what we should all be eating more of.
Interestingly, they list Garden of Life Primal Defense HSO in the "lower" range!
Sometimes, it's hard to know what's best to do.
lifeline
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