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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Herbs or Abx... Which is more effective?

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Author Topic: Herbs or Abx... Which is more effective?
Nicole2011
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I hear people saying herbs work better to kill lthis disease.. I just wanted to know if there's any truth to that?

--------------------
Neuro-Lyme (possible bart)
Symptoms started Jan 2011::Diagnosed Feb 11th,2011::
*Anything is possible thru God who strengthens me*

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lululymemom
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You're going to get alot of different opinions on this one. I personally feel that if you have a new infection, abx are definitely the way to go. Including herbals with that protocol just gives you a better fighting chance at eradicating the disease while keeping your body healthy.

For long term chronic people like myself, I believe we have to weigh our physical condition against how well we can tolerate abx. If I choose to go the abx route, I will use the low dose approach. Otherwise, I feel you can manage this disease with herbals but not necessarily completely wipe out the illness. It would be nice to hear from someone who strictly did herbals without ever doing abx and got rid of the disease.

--------------------
IGM 41 IND, 83-93+ IGG 31 IND,34 IND, 41++, 58+, 83-93 IND

31 Epitope test neg.

Bartonella henselae 1:100

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Nicole2011
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Yeah i would like to try both together so maybe the process can go faster & i can be healthier also... im just not sure exactly which ones to purchase because there so many of them

--------------------
Neuro-Lyme (possible bart)
Symptoms started Jan 2011::Diagnosed Feb 11th,2011::
*Anything is possible thru God who strengthens me*

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lululymemom
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There are several herbal formulas out there that people are trying. The most popular ones for the moment are the Byron White Formulas (A-Bab, A-Bart, A-L) Then there are the Beyond Balance (Bab1, Bab2, Bar1, Lyme formulas) From there the Cowden herbs (Samento, Banderol, Cumanda etc..) are quite effective for some.

The first two formulas are usually obtained through Practitioners.. Although there are other ways to get them.

--------------------
IGM 41 IND, 83-93+ IGG 31 IND,34 IND, 41++, 58+, 83-93 IND

31 Epitope test neg.

Bartonella henselae 1:100

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Nicole2011
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Wow, i have no idea what those even are. i would definetly have to ask my Dr for them

--------------------
Neuro-Lyme (possible bart)
Symptoms started Jan 2011::Diagnosed Feb 11th,2011::
*Anything is possible thru God who strengthens me*

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TerryK
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I've heard from many sources over the years that people who use herbs only are not likely to get well. I've also read stories from more than one person on lymenet who says they got well with herbs or rife or other alternative routes.

I've been using herbs for many years and tried to avoid all abx most of my life. Now I've been on abx and herbs together for quite awhile and I have to say that I don't think herbs alone would have gotten me to where I am now. I still have a long way to go but I am getting better with both herbs and abx.

Personally, I think the key to getting well is more about finding a doctor who knows a lot about how to treat lyme whether they treat primarily with abx or herbs. I also think finding someone who uses both gives one the best chance to get well.

Terry

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Nicole2011
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Yeah i would like to try them both

--------------------
Neuro-Lyme (possible bart)
Symptoms started Jan 2011::Diagnosed Feb 11th,2011::
*Anything is possible thru God who strengthens me*

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tick battler
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After my family members tried both, I feel herbs are more effective. We think we have eradicated lyme but it is too early to know for sure....we used Samento, Cumanda, Burbur and GSE.

Just food for thought...Samento fared much better than Doxy in killing lyme in this recent study:
http://www.newhaven.edu/news-events/82773.pdf

tickbattler

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Lymeorsomething
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Combined...

--------------------
"Whatever can go wrong will go wrong."

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Tincup
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Nicole said.. "Yeah i would like to try both together so maybe the process can go faster & i can be healthier also.."

Sharing my observations here, hoping it might help avoid problems.

In over 20 years I do not remember one person who recovered fully (without a relapse) when doing only herbs/supplements.

I have seen many get better in the beginning on herbs, then slowly decline until it was too late to kick the Lyme completely, and then have to resort to antibiotics which also hasn't cured them after waiting so long and having the diseases take hold.

I have seen many recover completely with antibiotics.

I have seen a lesser number not recover fully with antibiotics than with herbs.

I've seen many who became allergic to something they were taking (herbs & antibiotics) and not know what it was that caused the allergy. They had to stop ALL herbs and meds and no longer had them as an available "tool" for fighting the infections.

I've seen people waste a lot of money on herbs and supplements that didn't help them ... and people use herbs and supplements that combined many ingredients in one "pill" and those extras caused side effects and problems.

Nearly everyone I've ever known with Lyme wanted to try to "hurry" treatment and get back to their old life ASAP. We all have that dream, but I've never seen anyone get better faster by doing a lot of things at once.

I have seen many of the ones who tried doing a lot at once, who didn't want to listen to cautionary advise, get horrendously sick trying to hurry treatment (hospital sick).

Given the above, you might want to hit the Lyme with antibiotics and see how it goes before adding supplements or herbs to the protocol.

Your choice and that of your doctors, but just wanted to share those observations.

Good luck in whatever you decide. ope you feel better soon.

[Big Grin]

--------------------
www.TreatTheBite.com
www.DrJonesKids.org
www.MarylandLyme.org
www.LymeDoc.org

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Nicole2011
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Thank you tincup your absolutley right

--------------------
Neuro-Lyme (possible bart)
Symptoms started Jan 2011::Diagnosed Feb 11th,2011::
*Anything is possible thru God who strengthens me*

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CherylSue
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For myself, ABX
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chiquita incognita
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Tincup and Lulumymom
You *both* make absolute sense.

I can't say because I am new in my treatment, but will offer my own experience.

Using the Bar 1 by Healthy DIrections for six months, I had better neurological recovery than a friend using abx did for three years.

I also read a naturopath's opinion on the web who said that people come from around the country to see him (I don't know his work myself first-hand) that he "would never recommend abx for lyme". He says that he has seen too many people get well with naturopathics alone---that may have been more than just herbs fyi, could have been a combination of that plus homeopathics and supplements and who knows.

He also said that he thinks a lot of the herx's really are drug side effects mixed wtih genuine die off.

That frankly makes sense to me.

I can't say what I know or don't know about herbs doing the whole job, because I am new to lyme and not well read on this herbal issue, and also am too new to say anything.

So far my own progress has been remarkable in the first six months of my journey, using herbs alone.

I was whapped completely with bactrim and am still recovering 2 months later. But I am very sensitive to medications and am not like most people in my responses, so my reaction shouldn't guide anybody else's.

For myself, given my sensitive system, I am inclined to try the herbals first and see how I do before giving the abx a "whack".

But what Tincup makes sense and so does what Lulu said, make sense.

I don't know the answer about full cure, but to be honest knowing the mechanisms by which herbs work in terms of antibiotic action, I have full faith in them. *IF* they are well blended and good quality herbs to begin with. YOu would need the right blend and not one herb working alone, studies show that herbs work best in clusters than solo. And you would need good quality herbs, processed and grown under the best of conditions.

I am very happy with the Healthy Directions product so far and am very encouraged by my progress. To note, with very few bumps along hte way and very little drama.

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Pam08
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I know of people that got well using only naturals so it does seem to be possible. Everyone is different as far as what works best for them.

I myself have been using the combo approach of both abx and herbs.

You can do both abx and herbs without taking so much stuff that it is too much or that you have a reaction and don't know what it is from. It is easy to avoid that if you just add one thing in at a time so that you know how you react to it.

So I see no problem with using a combination of both as long as you do it right. The same can be said with abx alone. If you add three in at a time and have a bad reaction you will still have to stop them all to find out which one it was.

So no matter what approach you take you just need to be sure not to add too much in at once.

I am so sensitive to stuff that I always add just one thing in at a time.

You just have to do what feels right to you. Not one treatment works for everyone.

--------------------
Sick since 10/2001. Tested CDC positive for Lyme 10/2008 through Quest and Igenex. Started treatment 1/2009 with LLMD. Lyme, Erichilosis, Chlamydophila Pneumoniae, Q Fever, Strep Syndrome and probably a few others I am forgetting.

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seibertneurolyme
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tickbattler,

The fact that you used antibiotics first can't be discounted. Maybe the herbs gave the infections the final boot, but without the antibiotics first it is hard to say where you would be at in your treatment.

Hubby went to a chiro and tried the herbal route first. He ended up in the ER in bad shape multiple times in the couple of months we worked with that person and that particular doc was pretty much at a loss as to where to go from there. Others -- especially GWB -- can't say enough good things about that chiro -- but GWB had already gone the antibiotics route also so it is not totally a comparable experience.

My general impression is that herbalists have more experience and more options for treating lyme, but less experience and less options for treating the coinfections which have even less research than lyme does.

Also, I think it makes a big difference what the symptoms are as to whether the herbs are as effective as antibiotics. Have not heard of anyone with severe neuro lyme including symptoms such as seizures or peripheral neuropathy who recovered without antibiotics. I am not convinced that many herbs cross the blood brain barrier effectively.

Arthritic symptoms and more typical CFS and brain fog type symptoms can recover with herbs alone I believe -- provided the doses are high enough and the herbalist or patient (if self-treating) has enough knowledge and does enough research.

Personally I think it takes a combo of herbs, antibiotics and nutritional supplements to beat these diseases.

For someone whose LLMD is strictly into antibiotics then I would feel comfortable suggesting they follow the Buhner Healing Lyme protocol if they wish to add in herbs on their own. The book includes all the scientific research and contra-indications for the various herbs.

I am less confident suggesting the various herbal formulas. The primary reason is because they include multiple herbs and if you have a negative reaction you won't know if the problem is a single herb in a formula which may contain as many as a dozen herbs. For instance there is one formula which contains lomatium which can cause a fairly serious reaction in some people -- at least one poster here on lymenet ended up in the ER as a result.

And of course this brings us back to the age old question -- is it simply a matter of a different strain of lyme or one of the coinfections which cause predominantly arthritic symptoms versus primarily neurological symptoms?

This is not medical advice, just my opinion based on hubby's experiences.

Bea Seibert

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seibertneurolyme
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I also agree with Terry -- the doc is the main key. At least 50% of the equation. But that does not mean that only 1 doc is always best or all that is required. If you are not making progress after 2 or 3 years then it may be time to seek a 2nd opinion. Docs do run out of ideas and every one does have their favorite treatment regimens. Sometimes new eyes are needed as treatment progresses.

And Chiquita has a very valid point -- it frequently requires multiple herbs or multiple antibiotics to get well. There is an art in knowing what to combine. Since there are so many variables this is where an experienced doc has an edge.

And I totally agree with Pam. Only add 1 new thing at once. Even if the doc prescribes 3 or 4 new meds at one appointment -- start them 1 at a time usually at least 4 or 5 days apart. And for many people you might need to start at 1/4 or 1/2 the suggested dose. Many docs know this but they don't always remember to repeat these instructions at every appointment.

Just like hubby has learned to always take all meds (rifampin was the only exception I think) with food regardless of the usual instructions. His docs agree when questioned but don't usually remember to tell him this at every appointment.

Bea Seibert

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tick battler
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Bea,

While I don't personally believe it was a factor, I agree we need to consider that abx prior to herbs could have been helpful with my husband and children. You can't say the same with me, however, because in my case I only did herbs and feel I have beaten it. I was not severely ill like your husband but did have some neuro symptoms and had lyme for over 20 years.

Of course it's upsetting for me to read Tincup's statement that she has never seen anyone fully recover on herbals alone. I used to think that too because that is the prevailing view on lymenet - that herbs aren't strong enough. However, based on my experience going through this with my family of 5, I disagree, and hope she is wrong for my family's sake but time will tell for us.

My family did make some improvements on abx, but then plateaued and symptoms remained. When abx failed us, I had to pursue more alternative treatments. I think the KEY is EDS (or accurate muscle testing), which has demonstrated to me that the herbs actually WORK better than the abx that we were on (perhaps this was because we had been on them so long that they were no longer effective).

We continuously tested the herbs and meds side by side. Some meds were very effective in killing...flagyl actually tested very well. It hit many coinfections along with lyme. But many of the abx were hitting nothing in us. And the herbs that my pracitioner was using were very effective. Some other herbs I brought in were hitting nothing (andrographis was one). But garlic did hit bartonella and lyme.

When your hubby started with herbs, was he getting accurate alternative testing to see if the herbs were actually doing anything? As you know, with this illness, if you leave out treatment of one coinfection, such as babesia, you can become much worse, even if you are treating the other diseases properly. That could have been the case. And, of course, some herbs work and others don't. We found that the same herb would hit babesia in one family member but not in the other.

That is what is so difficult with this disease complex...shooting in the dark. Guessing what is working. EDS and muscle testing take the guess work away. It was a miracle for us. I was skeptical at first, constantly testing the results..but time and time again the EDS testing confirmed blood work and I was convinced in its accuracy.

Anyway, that's just my opinion based on my personal experience. I agree that meds can work too...but the key in my mind is to develop a protocol based on accurate muscle or EDS testing so you are sure it is effective. The other key in my mind is to try to treat all of the infections at once. We have not done muscle testing, so I do not actually know if it is as effective as EDS tseting, but I have heard many others have used it successfully. Next week, I take my boys to have it done, so we shall see if it is consistent with the EDS results.

tickbattler

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chiquita incognita
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Bea et al
I have recovered (in part) from severe neuro lyme using herbs alone. And it's only been six months.

I started out with such severe agitation and other things going on that I don't want to write about openly on the internet, but trust me it was beyond what I have read in most testimonies here, with the exception of one or two people whose posts I have read here. It was more than just BAD, it was downright SCARY!!!

And it did not take long for the herbs to help me, with very few dramas along the way. Those serious symptoms are completely gone and have not come back. Not one abx pill along the way to accomplish that end.

As for other neuro type symptoms, I am no longer getting the clawed/curled up fingers in my left hand/no more facial semi-paralysis that I used to have. They do fall badly asleep and more work is needed, but so far so very good.

Just from herbs alone. After six months. In fact, it took less than six months for the downright scary part of the symptoms to go away. That only took about two or three, in my best recollection.

I have concerns about drug side effects with long-term antibiotic use, leaky gut causing severe immune compromise et al. (I am not a doctor and you should ask about this, with your doctor).

HOw will this help a lyme patient to get well?

I am not denying that abx are sometimes necessary and even vital for survival or for getting well. I am not saying they don't play a terribly important role.

But my own inclination is to use herbs first, see how I do, see how far they really can go, before starting abx again. My plan is to use the abx only to peel the last layers of the onion, not the whole onion.

As above, the naturopath I read says he has seen his patients get well without abx and that he "would never recommend abx for lyme" Because he thinks the herx's with abx are too severe for our own good. People with herbal treatment have fewer and less pronounced herx's (which after all are toxic effects) and are *safer* during spirochete die-off. He also thinks that so-called herx's are really drug side-effects mixed wtih genuine die-off. And that makes a lot of sense to me.

I also know about the mechanics of herbal actions and based on that, have a lot of faith in the herbs. While I never make any claims or using that forbidden word "Cure", I would still suggest that there may be a power in them that is to be respected. It may go beyond what many people may think. But I never make guarantees to anybody. (Even while I have full faith in the herbs at the same time).

Based on what I know of the way herbs work on the mechanical level, I have faith that they can do the whole job. But if they can't, then my resolve is to do the herbs until they have done all that they can, then to start abx therapy.

My two cents worth.


The above information has not been evaluated by the FDA and does not diagnose, cure or prevent any disease. Drugs and herbs may interact, talk wtih your doctor. This does not substitute for medical advice and is intended as information to be asked of your doctor, not for self-treatment under any circumstances. These are questions asked by an individual representing an individual's opinion, and are not to be mistaken or misused as medical fact. Ask for your doctor's opinion and follow his-her advice.

[ 03-13-2011, 01:44 AM: Message edited by: chiquita incognita ]

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chiquita incognita
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PS I am thinking:

There are different constitutional types.

Some people of a very hardy constitution may tolerate abx very well and need it to get well. These people may not respond to herbal therapy, or may only respond minimally.

Another person with a more sensitive constitution may really suffer from abx side effects and respond very well to the herbs.

We are all different and must honor our own body and its responses.

Again this is not medical advice, only a layperson asking questions out loud. Bring these questions to your doctor and follow his/her advice, and never use any information on the web or from any mouth other than your doctor's for your get-well treatment plan.

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chiquita incognita
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Hi folks
Sorry for so many messages I don't mean to dominate.

I did want to echo that regarding the question of someone reacting to a particular herb in a blend---and yes it can happen----and how does one know which herb it was?

Here is a partial solution:

A) Take a very, very low dose to start with to test for tolerance. See how you do. Report to your doctor if any symptoms come up.Make sure these are herx and not side effect symptoms. Creep up the dosage very gradually, following your doctor' s instructions as you do this.

B) Start by using a single herb, see how you do with it. Again start at a low dose to test for tolerance, and creep up the dosage. Stay in touch iwth your doctor as above.

C) Keep adding to the blend , one herb at a time, to see how you do.

D) Once you have tested the herbs individually, and ruled out any reactions, you can take the whole formula.

Again I would advise starting slowly because if one herb alone does fine in your system, the combination will be synergistic and have a stronger effect than the solo herb.

Go slowly, and test carefully, then ER visits by those who have sensitivities will be much less likely.

Again the Titanic ship couldn't be sunk, but that analogy applies to mainstream meds too.

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chiquita incognita
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One more!! Argghhh....

I am not offering this as medical fact, but asking it as a question.

If we address medical vulnerabilities prior to beginning lyme therapy (herbal or abx, either way), work to seal up the leaky gut lining (if present as an issue), detox the liver and kidneys, and modulate immunity....

Then won't herx's be much less severe as lyme treatment begins?

Won't there be much fewer ER visits as noted above?

I really believe this topic is something that should be talked about at length on this and all other lyme forums.

How to strengthen and prepare teh body to minimize herx's, call on our body's own immune defenses, how to relax the over-active immune system and balance it in a healthy way....

Then we all will get much better, no matter which medical path we choose to take, mainstream or alternative.

Let's keep this dicussion going on other threads!

Thank you all. I think this will be really important and valuable.

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gwb
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I would never tell a person that one option is better than another. I don't think it's possible for anyone to say which option is best, even though a few here are saying this way is best or that way is best. I think all we can say, honestly, is what worked best for each one of us. What worked for me may not work for you.

You have to research, research, research, then research some more and to your own conclusions as to which option you think will be most effective for you. You have to ask a zillion questions and bug the bleep out of everyone until you get the answers you need to educate yourself on the pros and cons of each treatment.

I was on and off abx for five years. My life was just about over in Dec 2009. My wife and I got our affairs in order and planned my funeral. I was so sick I prayed for death and looked forward to it. It grieved me to think my grandkids would no longer have their Papa around, but I just couldn't keep going any longer. I lost 75 pounds in six months and had given up all hope of getting well.

I won't repeat my story here because there's a thread titled "Hansa Center--Update" where I shared my experience regarding the alternative treatment protocol that I went on. Bea calls him a Chiropractor. Technically, yes, that what he has a degree in, however his experience goes far beyond "bone cracking" and all that stuff. In fact, he never gave me one chiropractic adjustment the whole time he treated me.

This doctor is a Biological doctor who has had extensive training in Europe and has uses some of the same treatment principles that Dr. K uses. There's some similarity in their treatment philosophy and theres a lot that he does different too. He uses Bio-Resonance Scanning (BRS) for his testing methods. You can read more about it on his website.

Dr. J has developed over 30 natural medicines and has been treating Lyme, co-infections and other chronic infections for over 30 years. He wrote the book, "Beating Lyne Disease". He had this disease at one time and his daughter had the West Nile Virus. This doctor knows this disease inside and out.

I'm not going to go on and on about it, because it's all written on the thread I mentioned. All I can say is, for *me* the natural option of treating this disease saved my life and got me functioning again. Am I 100% better? No. I still have some issues I'm working on. But I have a life, and that's something I didn't think I was going to have much longer back in December 2009

I can live a normal life and work five days a week, whereas before I could barely work 3 days a month. Now I can fly to Florida and visit our grandkids which would have only been a dream for the last two years prior to my treatment. I can drive long distance now which was not possible before treatment. In other words, I can live again rather than continue to die daily from Lyme disease.

For me, Abx did not work. The side effects, the gut pain, the fact that I continued to get sicker and sicker while on abx convinced me I was either going to die or I needed to do something different. I never heard of this doctor or his protocol prior to going to his clinic for treatment. I found out about it when I was researching the main three herbal protocols for Lyme, Buhner, Zhang and Cowden (now there's Byron White which I never heard of until recently).

It was by "accident" that I met a gal on another forum who told me about this protocol and encouraged me to look into it. She herself never went to the clinic. She got totally well from following the protocol that is in the book Dr. J wrote. Many people have done that and have not gone to the clinic. It's expensive to go to his clinic, but I was so sick I knew I had to go because I was too weak to read the book and try to figure it all out on my own.

The point is, herbs, homeopathic medicine, supplements, treatments, and therapies at this clinic, and a whole lot of prayers got me better. I don't say much about it anymore here because I know at least one person here who thinks this doctor is a "snake oil salesman" because he makes and sells his own products.

Lymenet has been more of a pro abx forum, however it's changed dramatically over the past five years that I've been here. So I thread lightly when it comes to discussing the protocol I got better on as some people (not many) sometimes have a, well, let's just say they have a bad "side effect" to what I have to share about this. ; )

I don't understand the logic behind this thinking because he actually developed and has patents on several of his medicines. But I don't feel compelled to defend this doctor or his protocol. I only feel compelled to say what worked for me and let everyone decide for themselves what they think will work best for them. This is a personal decision that each person has to make on their own without coaxing or pressure from anyone else.

I can say this, I am confident had I not found this Biological doctor, who has over 30 years of experience treating this disease, I sincerely believe that I would not even be here to write this post today. I thank God that I am doing better and pray that I continue to get even better than I am now. I once had no hope of living, now I am living the good life, thanks to a great doctor, his protocol, and a loving and supportive wife (daisyrlb) who stuck by me and helped me though my darkest days.

I thank God too for His amazing grace and leading me to this wonderful lady on another forum who lead me to this doctor. I give God the credit for where I am today. I pray for each and every person who has this disease that they too will find the path that leads them to wellness, whether it be abx, herbal or both.

Nicole, you are in my prayers.

Gary

[ 03-12-2011, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: gwb ]

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nefferdun
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People are so passionate about their treatment. Even though we remain sick, we are adamant we are on the right track. We can't believe we aren't on the right track. There would be no hope.

When you have more than one infection, it is like the axis of evil. Together, they lower the immune system and strengthen each other. They are virulent, highly resistant pathogens that have evolved into a deadly plague.

If you only have one infection it might be possible that your immune system could fight it off with the help of herbs. Perhaps you would not actually ever be well, so the quality of your life would be compromised, but you could function. But with the combo of infections most of us have I believe herbs cannot cure.


Herbs have not cured me. I always relapsed when I used the exclusively. I believe they are good to back up treatment and when you are symptom free and get off abx, to support your immune system to keep the infections from coming back.

I believe the infections are too strong and resistant for herbs alone. The comparable to lyme is syphilis. Who would fool around trying to cure syphilis with herbs!!! Seriously.

How many people in history were cured of syphilis using herbs?
It was always a death sentence. Had there been an herb or combination of herbs that could cure syphilis, it would have been discovered and sold world wide - tremendous wealth would have been made from such a concoction.

The progression of syphilis when it is not adequately treated, is similar to lyme: Paralysis, blindness, heart failure, insanity. . .
Scares me.

There is a lot of money to be made promoting and selling herbs. It is a much safer occupation than being an LLMD. You don't need a license to practice, or a prescription pad.

I have been in the lyme world only three years but during that time the in vogue herbal treatments have shifted several times. You don't hear a lot about Cowden, Zhang or Jernigan these days.

I still try the new stuff. I order hundreds of dollars of it and religiously take it, hoping something will actually work.

So far the only thing that works are the drugs. I don't like it but that is the way it is.

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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gwb
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neff, I believe the important thing is that you feel confident, and are at peace with the protocol you are on, if that's the case then nothing else matters.

There is one big question though, that I don't think most of us have the answer to, although a few here will say they do--do we really ever get totally "cured" from this disease? My answer is no, but I believe we can keep our immune system healthy enough to keep the symptoms at bay. A healthy immune system is truly the key to getting better in my opinion.

I'm not anti-abx by any means. My wife got better on abx, however, she relapsed both times on abx. The third time she decided to go on the same protocol I'm on, Dr. J's protocol. She's never felt better since she had this disease. Sure, the abx could have played a role in this, we can't discount that possibility, but now she's in the best health she's been in since she contracted this disease.

I noticed a couple of people have said on this thread, "with herbs you WILL relapse". Very well could be, but it's the same with abx. Look at all the threads of people who got better on abx and left the forum only to return a year, two or maybe three or more years later saying they relapsed. Relapses happen, with herbs, or abx. That's a proven fact.

But seriously, that's irrelevant to this discussion. To me, the most important question, related to this thread is what Nicole asked, " are herbs or abx more effective for treating lyme disease?" I think the answer to her question will all depend on our personal beliefs, or experiences. So in a way, it's not really a fair question to ask because everyone will have a different answer, which is primarily based on their personal experience.

I don't mean it's an unfair question to ask, it's a good question, but I don't think my answer, or anyone else's answer, is going to give Nicole "THE" answer that she might be looking for to determine which protocol will work best for her. It all boils down to this, whatever worked best for you, whether it be abx, or herbs, that's the answer--for you and for me--but it may not be the answer for Nicole.

By the way, glad to know that abx are working for you. I hope and pray you continue to improve and eventually beat this evil disease--and that's my hope and prayer for me too! : )

Gary

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FYRECRACKER
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A word on Dr. J. I know someone who knows him personally who feels the same way, "snake oil salesman". That's coming from someone who's been in business with the man, non-lyme and non health field related.

I'm not saying he is or isn't that, haven't met him personally just reporting what has been shared with me. It's great his protocol worked for you and others, but the fact remains...he sells products that cost a lot of money. if you can afford it, wonderful. But we all know money is a source of suffering, like any other disease/condition, wealthy = healthy.

my 2 cents only.

--------------------
www.mylymechronicle.wordpress.com

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stork
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I think it really depends how sick you are and where you are in your treatment.

I just started the buhner protocol in addition to mepron/diflucan/mino (which I've been riding for about 8 months pulsed) and feel absolutely incredible and like myself for the first time since getting ill....abx could never do that alone. My biggest symptoms are drunken derealization, headache, cognitive issues, fatigue. Buhner's core + siberian ginseng has made a noticeable impact in just 72 hours.

Herbs have incredible anti-inflammatory effects that are essential for reducing opportunistic opportunities for the lyme infection IMO.

I would just caution those using herbs from using single extracts as part of a cete-killing regimen. I started there (with Cowden's Samento and Cumanda) and although it was effective, you're not going to shut down inflammatory pathways and it's going to cost you a whole lot more money.

With the whole herb: less $, greater benefit relative to cowden extracts. Reading "healing lyme" was the best thing I've done in months. I can't say it'll work for you, but it's doing good things for me. I'll keep you posted.

--------------------
long road since 2010
abx got me over the hump
diet, detox, and herbs have got me to heal

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stork
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quote:
Originally posted by FYRECRACKER:
A word on Dr. J. I know someone who knows him personally who feels the same way, "snake oil salesman". That's coming from someone who's been in business with the man, non-lyme and non health field related.

I'm not saying he is or isn't that, haven't met him personally just reporting what has been shared with me. It's great his protocol worked for you and others, but the fact remains...he sells products that cost a lot of money. if you can afford it, wonderful. But we all know money is a source of suffering, like any other disease/condition, wealthy = healthy.

my 2 cents only.

I have the same misgivings. I might understand a doctor's time being worth that much money (if he was truly in that high demand and had malpractice/medical license concerns,) but pretty much all the extracts are the same and the foundational herbs are relatively cheap - no reason for herbs and supps to be at the levels that dr. j and nutramedix are charging for them.

--------------------
long road since 2010
abx got me over the hump
diet, detox, and herbs have got me to heal

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gwb
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FYRECRACKER, someone always knows someone who they think is of shady character. I am not one to judge the man's character. My overall experience with him was good. If I felt he was in the business solely to make money off of his patients, I would not have gone to him.

However, I do agree with you and stork about the cost factor. I don't understand why people like Dr. K, Dr. J, and many LLMD's charge outrageous prices for their treatment. I guess the cost of doing business, malpractice insurance, overhead, expensive equipment in their offices, etc, could be a major reason for that, I don't know.

I have often said, "Lyme disease is a rich man's disease". I could not afford to go to Dr. J, but I decided I was going to try one last protocol, and if it worked, great, if not, that was the end of the road for me. SInce being treated by Dr. J, and purchasing his remedies, I have spent a total of about $10,000. I'm still making payments on my credit card to pay for the treatments and remedies.

Had it not been for my family encouraging me to do this, I would have just stayed in bed and died. I craved death, I prayed for it, but my family wanted me to stay around a bit longer, and I wanted to be there for my grandkids a bit longer too.

Like I mentioned earlier, you can buy his book and do the home protocol minus the treatment and therapies for a lot less money. You just have to buy the book and his remedies and follow the instructions in the book. The remedies cost $48.00 for a 4oz bottle. Expensive? Yes, most pharmaceutical grade remedies and supplements are expensive.

Dr. K, who pretty much recommends Biopure exclusively, is some of the most expensive supplements on the market. Nutramedix, as stork mentioned, is not cheap either.

I cannot justify the outrageous amount of money Dr. K, Dr J, and some of the top LLMD's charge for their services. It's not cheap, not at all, but like I've said before, if their treatments and remedies get you better, it's priceless.

Gary

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lululymemom
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Chiquita, you have offered a very good explanation for the use of herbs. You are absolutely correct in the discussion about side effects of pharmeceuticals.

For some, this may all seem foreign to put trust in something other than what mainstream doctors perscribe. For myself, I have grown up with alternative methods of healing. I am very comfortable putting my faith and trust in herbs that have withstood the test of time. After all many of our pharmeceuticals are derived from herbs.. [Smile]

I could understand someones reluctance to rely on this method of healing but I do believe it will become more mainstream as time goes on.

--------------------
IGM 41 IND, 83-93+ IGG 31 IND,34 IND, 41++, 58+, 83-93 IND

31 Epitope test neg.

Bartonella henselae 1:100

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nefferdun
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lululymemom, when you say herbs have "withstood the test of time", that is just it - because they haven't.

The worlds population has exploded since the advent of antibiotics because they are saving people's lives. When there was just herbal remedies to rely on, people died! Look at the leap in population growth since antibiotics.

The problem is the pathogens are becoming more virulent and resistant to antibiotics. This is partly caused from overuse of antibiotics in feed lots as well as lifestyle, poor diet and environmental pollution making us very unhealthy.

The fact is humanity has avoided being part of nature's "survival of the fittest". We are kept alive with drugs! Any other species that was as self destructive as we are would be extinct.

I believe it is going to take EVERYTHING to get this under control. There is no single cure.

Those of us that get better have a really strong immune system.
Herbs, supplements, diet, exercise, environment, support from others, faith and our own mental attitude all play an important role in our wellness.

We can't operate from two different fronts. We have to combine our approach. Many of us say we want to go back to "being who I used to be" but there is no going back. Going back is what got us here in the first place.

We are on the new frontier of where mankind needs to go in order to survive. It isn't just lyme disease that is taking over. Many diseases are out of control like cancer and diabetes and heart disease.

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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stork
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quote:
Originally posted by nefferdun:
lululymemom, when you say herbs have "withstood the test of time", that is just it - because they haven't.

The worlds population has exploded since the advent of antibiotics because they are saving people's lives. When there was just herbal remedies to rely on, people died! Look at the leap in population growth since antibiotics.

The problem is the pathogens are becoming more virulent and resistant to antibiotics. This is partly caused from overuse of antibiotics in feed lots as well as lifestyle, poor diet and environmental pollution making us very unhealthy.

The fact is humanity has avoided being part of nature's "survival of the fittest". We are kept alive with drugs! Any other species that was as self destructive as we are would be extinct.

I believe it is going to take EVERYTHING to get this under control. There is no single cure.

Those of us that get better have a really strong immune system.
Herbs, supplements, diet, exercise, environment, support from others, faith and our own mental attitude all play an important role in our wellness.

We can't operate from two different fronts. We have to combine our approach. Many of us say we want to go back to "being who I used to be" but there is no going back. Going back is what got us here in the first place.

We are on the new frontier of where mankind needs to go in order to survive. It isn't just lyme disease that is taking over. Many diseases are out of control like cancer and diabetes and heart disease.

nefferdun - I would argue that any population growth resulting from new antibiotics had more to do with the dissemination of treatment knowledge along with these antibiotics than it had to do with them being a marginal improvement over herbal antibiotics.

herbal antibiotics have always been more popular in given societies, and I would venture to guess that they have stood the test of time and continue to be preferred over conventional antibiotics in these communities.

--------------------
long road since 2010
abx got me over the hump
diet, detox, and herbs have got me to heal

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lymie tony z
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I have to agree with the tincup above concerning

treatments with herbals as opposed to

antibiotics. As well as the probabilities that

people become much more ill as a result lf the

mixing of herbals not recommended by ILADS with

any antibiotic treatments.

Especially because of so many unknowns included

with herbals.

Yes, I take herbals recommended by ILADS(dr B)

but these are only supplemental and help replace

needed supplements or vitamins that become

depleted either because of ongoing infectious

pathogens depleting my system of much needed

nutrients, NOT a fault, as far as I can tell of

utilization of antibiotics and or the depletion

of said nutrients as a result of antibiotic

usage.

Having said this, of course not being totally

stupid. I realize what anti-biotic means-towit-

anti-body- or against the body....so....no study

ever produced here with any validity ever points

or has pointed to depletion of anything by using

antibiotics. Side effects yes...but scientific

reasoning or studies to confirm why NO!

Except perhaps where vitaminB supplements are

concerned.

I can read into this thread a whole lot about

the adversarial groups comming here and

including there unwarranted opinions with the

express purposes of then referring back to the

"lymenet" website as a source of their "pre-

arranged quotations" as if referring to actual

persons and their actual experiences with these

diseases in order to discredit the ILADS folks

and the use of antibiotics as the only preferred

methodology worth discussing. They seek to muddy

up the waters...and I for one have been sick

of it for years.

For those newbies to these threads. Be very

cautious of any contributors on these threads

who would have you believe that anything besides

what the ILADS foundation recommends as a remedy

and or remedies or "ADJUNCTS" they may have

lately mentioned.

I know how desperate we can all become...I am

constantly reminded everytime I run into a newly

diagnosed individual who seeks out my advice,

in real life situations.

Wherever I have roamed.

Just don't go off half cocked because of your

neuro-borreliosis symptoms. Sit back and relax

and try to stay on a steady course.

God be with you always,
and a good llmd
YFIChrist
zman

--------------------
I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman

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ukcarry
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I would like to see more people differentiating between acute and chronic Lyme when answering this question.

I would not like anyone who is newly bitten to be put off trying 6 weeks of antibiotics in an effort to to avoid the illness developing.

I was diagnosed after many years of illness and started treatment with both abx and herbs, without much in the way of results as yet! I have stopped abx for the time being, as I was getting more intolerant of them for no reward, still take some herbs and hope to try other herbals, such as the Byron White Formulas, in the near future.

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nomoremuscles
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I think this is a false dichotomy.

We can't be so rigid and dogmatic here.

Abx and herbs are both tools that can be used to treat Lyme and co's. Sometimes one may be better than the other for a specific problem. But the other may prove necessary at another time. Some people will need both. Others, like many who have posted above, will do better with one or another, herbs or abx.

Some people, due to their constitutions or intolerances, will be limited in what they can use -- and sometimes the harshest drug is better tolerated than the most innocuous herb (and often the other way). You never know.

We can't make this into a religious thing. I see this often with people using rife or coil machines. They turn away from abx almost as if they are evil, when in fact they are just another tool.

Hammers are great. But when you have a flat tire you need a jack and a lug wrench.

I think flexibility is the key. Don't be so married to a particular trx, because it meets some internal litmus test, that you are willing to overlook the fact that it's not working, or worse, that it may be hurting.

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chiquita incognita
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Hello friends
I have to tread rather careful waters here so will reply very generically and broad-based.

Nefferdun:

If you understand the mechanics of how herbs work---and I have formal training with one of the world-top phytotherapists (man is this guy a scientist, and HOW!) plus seven years of reading and seminar attendance background in this area-----then you will understand that the common belief that herbs can't work as antibiotics or antivirals, is merely a commonly-held belief.

I am going to refrain from writing about this because it's too vulnerable a subject for me to venture. Suffice it to say that the herbs work via mechanisms in the body that are effective in many situations.

But you need the right herbs targeting the right body system, and the right bugs. And you need the right blend, right potency, etc. One herb alone wouldn't (in most situations, with only a few exceptions) do the trick, but clusters of herbs can.

Because they summon up immune cells in the body to do their work, have bacteria such as e coli which cling to body surfaces...slide right off and be washed out of the body, etc....

Mainstream abx were said by the authority I studied with to scramble the DNA of the bacteria, thereby causing mutation of the bacteria and a more virulent comeback as a result.

Herbs melt the bacterial cell wall and also work in many other ways. So they dont' cause a more virulent bacterial come-back.

Again I don't want to go into detail here and will refrain.

Suffice it to say....for those who check into this further, you may be surprised.
Read about one man's case of HIV reversal---zero virus found in his blood----attributed to shiitake mushroom extract. Read more....

It's not just theoretical, it's experience and clinical testing-based.

Again you have to know what the heck you are doing though. No pretenses and no games played there!

That's why it's dangerous for me to make claims in specific situations and I am not going to do that. I never make claims anway, I am very careful not to do that, with special reasons in mind.

It' s possible that because of bacterial genetic mutations/increased virulence, which the herbs will not cause, that herbs may be the way to go in the future and abx will only be used as backup.

Food for thought.

PS while I was working in a public setting, a client told me that GSE had improved her lab numbers for viral hepatitis. She did not claim cure and neither am I. She claimed great improvement however, and again it was the lab numbers that reflected this. If blended with additional herbs, I wonder what the outcome could possibly have been....

PPS and it's possible that in some situations the abx may work better. In other situations, herbs have been proven to work better too! YOu'd be surprised....it's not that one or the other is better, it's that it's a hand and glove operation. That's the beauty of it.

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