Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
I've been focusing on the electrolytes/minerals, but perhaps what I have missed is rebalancing the amino acids.
In the links below there are 5 nutrients mentioned to help to cure many cancers.
The nutrients are: arginine, lysine, proline and the anti-oxidants ascorbic acid and Green Tea extract.
What blows me away as how this same nutrient mixture looks to help so many kinds of cancers.
I am wondering if it can help fight lyme also - esp. because I know there is a LOT of "oxidative stress" happening (too many free radicals) and MMP2 and MMP9 are upregulated (collagenase = breakdown of collagen).
Here are some incredible links with "key" sentences only:
Antitumor effect of ascorbic acid, lysine, proline, arginine, and green tea extract on bladder cancer cell line T-24. PMID: 16734861
Inhibition of cell invasion and MMP production by a nutrient mixture in malignant liposarcoma cell line SW-872
Inhibitory effects of a nutrient mixture on human testicular cancer cell line NT 2/DT matrigel invasion and MMP activity. ...we investigated the effect of a nutrient mixture (NM) containing lysine, proline, arginine, ascorbic acid, and green tea extract on human testis cancer cell line NT 2/DT by measuring cell proliferation/cytotoxicity, modulation of MMP-2 and MMP-9 secretion, and cancer cell invasive potential
Modulation of N-methyl-N-nitrosourea induced mammary tumors in Sprague-Dawley rats by combination of lysine, proline, arginine, ascorbic acid and green tea extract
Inhibition of MMP-2 Secretion and Invasion by Human Ovarian Cancer Cell Line SK-OV-3 with Lysine, Proline, Arginine, Ascorbic Acid and Green Tea Extract M.W. Roomi, N. Roomi, V. Ivanov, T. Kalinovsky, A. Niedzwiecki, M. Rath. Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology Research (2006), 32,141-147.
In vivo antitumor effect of ascorbic acid, lysine, proline and green tea extract on human colon cancer cell HCT 116 xenografts in nude mice: Evaluation of tumor growth and immunohistochemistry.
It appears both Bb and the inflammatory cytokines are downregulating NO.
[ 05-31-2009, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: Marnie ]
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
-
Thanks for all that work, Marnie.
Along similar lines, here's some shocking news, too: people fighting illness need more protein in order to get all the amino acids they need.
Protein helps our bodies make glutathione and that helps the liver detox . . . protein's amino acids help our brain, our hearts, our muscles, etc., etc., etc.,
THE REQUIREMENTS OF PROTEIN & AMINO ACID DURING ACUTE & CHRONIC INFECTION . . .
Anura V. Kurpad - Institute of Population Health & Clinical Research, Bangalore, India
129. Indian J Med Res 124, August 2006, pp 129-148. Review Article.
Excerpt: " . . . In general, the amount of EXTRA protein that would appear to be needed is of the order of 20-25 per cent of the recommended intake, for most infections. . . ."
- Full article at link (or google the title if it does not go through).
In war times a long time ago, people used gelatin to sub. for more expensive meat proteins.
And do we not take gelatin capsules to improve our nails, hair, etc?
Gelatin is a form of collagen.
Bb triggers collagenase (breakdown) via MMP2 and MMP9.
And when you are on "clear liquids" post op in the hospital, what do you get to "eat"?
Jello.
Anthrax causes proteins to leak out.
The anthrax toxin and Bb's toxin both cleave MAPKK-1.
KK = 2 kinases = 2 phosphate transfers.
Cleave the above (MAPKK-1) and 2 phosphate transfers can't happen.
Mitogen activated protein kinase kinase -1.
Amino acids are the building blocks of proteins.
Bb ROBS 2 phosphates off of serine-proteins and uses those to make glutamic acid (=glutamate) which it then metabolizes.
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
glm1111
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 16556
posted
Excellent positive info on the anti tumor effects of ascorbic acid.
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged |
seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
Bringing this up for you Marnie. Please clarify your proposed doses of each of the five supplements.
I have had no impressive reaction to any Abx over the last 8 months of treating so if I saw significant improvement, I GUARANTEE it's attributed to the supplements. Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged |
lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
seekhelp you might try to explore the following link for supplementing.
According to the nobel prize winning doctor for increasing NO he sponsored the following supplement.
But I'm guessing you could replace this specific supplement with others. at 90 bucks a month the price is pretty steep.
And I agree with Marnie, we need a better view of how amino acids can help rebalance our bodies.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
Neuro science uses amino acids, among other things, to help rebalance neuro transmitter. Lyme does a number on them, for sure.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged |
lymewreck36
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4395
posted
Is there one supplement with these five in it sold somewhere? Mary
Posts: 1032 | From North Carolina | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
I have absolutely NO idea of the dosages and timing and I wouldn't add or subtract anything other than those listed.
If you can pull the full articles of the links I provided, we may get a better idea of dosages and timing.
So far I have not found one supplement that contains all 5. Some contain 3 of the 5.
I would go very slowly with this.
Use only the RDA (follow bottle directions) at first and see your response.
Then decide whether or not to ramp them up.
If you are taking ANYTHING in addition to the above, I don't know if it will potentiate or reduce the effectiveness of whatever else you are taking.
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
Marnie said none contain all five. You need to buy one supplement that has 2-3 components and buy the other two separately. Doses of each would be a crapshoot.
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged |
hiker53
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 6046
posted
oops! My old eyes misread what Marnie said. So no supplement contains all 5. Got it!
-------------------- Hiker53
"God is light. In Him there is no darkness." 1John 1:5 Posts: 8911 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I thought too much NO was a problem with those with CFS. The NO situation is confusing.
Posts: 861 | From USA | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
It appears Bb toxin (IF working like the pertussis toxin) leads to the DOWNREGULATION of iNOS -> NO in *macrophages*.
1. The pertussis toxin blocks the *inhibition of* melatonin synthesis (in other words now melatonin IS produced).
Then...
2. "Melatonin suppresses iNOS IN MACROPHAGES"(think of them as our "pac men" defense cells).
"An animal (mouse) model of CFS has "fatigue" induced by a bacterial extract that can induce both the inflammatory cytokines ***and*** also the inducible nitric oxide synthase."
I wonder what bacterial extract they used?!
A lysine deficiency also triggers "tiring easily"!
ANTI (!) TNF alpha treatment:
"anti-TNF-alpha treatment also reduced the expression of iNOS in the macrophages, but did
not affect the iNOS expression in the neutrophils."
Reverse the above:
TNF alpha (body defense) is trying to upregulate iNOS in some cells (macrophages),to counter Bb's toxin which -> more melatonin -> suppression of iNOS in macrophages.
We KNOW Bb has a PKC inhibitor. I think it is inhibiting a subset...PKCd.
"NO also activates protein kinase C (PKC)
and inhibits PKCd,
which results in increased endothelial cell proliferation and migration"
If Bb is inhibiting PKCd already...is it not "acting like" NO normally does?
Because Bb does indeed "use" arginine (and lysine and proline)...
Review:
NO activates PKC
NO inactivates PKCd...just like Bb does! (I think).
So what do WE do to try to activate PKC...we send calcium into the cell which Bb simply transports OUT.
Bb looks to not want PKC activated (the other subsets of PKC)
while
it already INactivates one subset: PKCd.
Let's see...Does this help?
Nitric oxide - activates PKC Bb - does not want PKC activated
Bb has a protein to export what it doesn't want...and it doesn't want calcium (C) which would activate a phosphate transfer onto a protein.
Bb has a PKC inhibitor. P= protein, K = kinase (transfer phosphate), C= calcium activated.
PKCd (protein kinase C delta) if it WAS not being inhibited by Bb would eliminate neutrophil transendothelial migration.
Our neutrophils are our most abundant WBCs. They contain something called calprotectin...
Calprotectin is supposed to be of help!
"The abundant PMN cytoplasmic protein calprotectin, ***elevated 10- to 100-fold in inflammation***, inhibits the growth of spirochetes
***through chelation of the essential cation, Zn.***
Inflammation -> calprotectin -> zinc chelated.
Since the action of some therapeutic antibiotics depends on bacterial division, we investigated the antibiotic sensitivities of spirochetes in calprotectin.
In physiologic calprotectin, B. burgdorferi is not eliminated by therapeutic doses of penicillin G; in contrast, doxycycline is effective.
Calprotectin may modify the clearance of spirochetes at sites of inflammation."
was also prevented by co-administration of lysine and zinc."
(Bb is depleting lysine and zinc plus more -> depletion of Ca and Mg?)
Ca and Mg are needed to make our antibodies!
P.S. Green tea:
"Polyphenols contained in teas are classified as catechins. Green tea contains six primary catechin compounds: catechin, gallaogatechin, epicatechin, epigallocatechin, epicatechin gallate, and apigallocatechin gallate (also known as EGCG). EGCG is the most studied polyphenol component in green tea and the most active."
Gallate...uhm....as it relates to gallium?
[ 06-05-2009, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Marnie ]
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Whey protein would seem to contain plentiful and clean amounts of the amino's? No?
Posts: 268 | From new york city | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
Carol in PA
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 5338
posted
quote: In the links below there are 5 nutrients mentioned to help to cure many cancers.
The nutrients are: arginine, lysine, proline and the anti-oxidants ascorbic acid and Green Tea extract.
When I went to read about proline, I looked at the reviews for it at iHerb.com. Several people mentioned that they were using it as part of Linus Pauling's protocol for heart disease.
I've noticed that many of the supplements that are recommended for Lyme are also used for cancer patients.
And now...some of them overlap with heart disease recommendations?
Hmmm....
Carol
Posts: 6947 | From Lancaster, PA | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
Carol is your hmmmm in a bad or good way?
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged |
Carol in PA
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 5338
posted
Haha....I don't know if it's good or bad.
What has happened, is that after the reading I've done, I now think that the inflammation from Lyme Disease may contribute to heart disease and heart attacks.
And something about Lyme seems to prime the body to get cancer.
Carol
Posts: 6947 | From Lancaster, PA | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
I didn't know about a Lyme/cancer connection - wonderful. Like this isn't horrifing enough.
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
"Whey protein would seem to contain plentiful and clean amounts of the amino's? No? "
Was this a stupid suggestion/question???? Can someone please enlighten me about whey protein as a delivery vehicle for the amino acids of which we speak? thank you, jl
Posts: 268 | From new york city | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Rather than throw ALL of the amino acids into the system, it looks like 3 are especially "critical" to restore.
Along with the 2 anti-oxidants mentioned.
BTW...if any of you are smokers, do NOT take Green Tea WITHOUT also taking vitamin C...according to what I've read.
Bb looks to lock onto our DNA and when we try to oxidize Bb's cell walls via free radicals this may -> DNA damage too - strands break -> cancer.
When I talked to Dr. Kerry Clark on the phone the other day (Bb DNA research U. of North Florida), he mentioned herxes and his "take" is that herxes maybe due to the cell dying after Bb is destroyed.
Too many cells dying too fast = problem. We can't break them down fast enough.
(All of our body cells normally have a life-death cycle and depending on the cell, some cells live just a very brief time - like our stomach cells - while other cells live for many months before they are destroyed and new ones are made).
But it would be good if they do die since they may have damaged DNA in them and ultimately this will cause cancer.
Bb does look to cause the cells in which it is "camped out" to become "He-La" cells. This simply means those cells are "immortal"...
That is...until Bb is destroyed.
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
ukcarry
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 18147
posted
I remember reading a lot about noni juice [from whole plant, unsweetened, on an empty stomach], which is supposed to stimulate the body's production of nitric oxide.
posted
Up for answers on Whey? Many here use it, should we go off it and focus only on the magic 3?
Posts: 268 | From new york city | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
I PERSONALLY would follow EXACTLY the recommended supplements and NOTHING ELSE.
We HAVE to halt DNA strand breaks.
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734
posted
Are either of these any good or too many other ingredients?
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
No those aren't what Marnie suggests. If I understand her correctly -and indeed she's not exactly being clear here, except for stating what one SHOULD take as opposed to what else might interfere with these 5- she's says ONLY to take the five supplements in which are in her first post.
Although I still don't see what is wrong with taking both the 5 AND taking something like Whey to get protein and immunoglobulins as well. Can't immagine how that would hurt?
Maybe she is thinking that too many chained-amino acids do not work in the body the same way as individual ones do. Maybe she might clarify her understanding of the biology of this? thanks, JL
Posts: 268 | From new york city | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
Carol in PA
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 5338
posted
The amino acids in the whey protein provide the building blocks for the liver to make glutathione.
As you know, the liver uses glutathione to detoxify the neurotoxins left by the dead Lyme bacteria.
Apparently researchers have found that people who live a long time have a higher level of glutathione.
Carol
Posts: 6947 | From Lancaster, PA | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I may be totally off base here with simplisty thinking, maybe my brain fog has me over the edge of comprehension ability....but, Marnie said one of the most complete helpers was gelatin regarding collagen etc. Apparently it provides these supplements??
If so, then why not just make and drink natural home madebone broth which produces a healthy gelatin with bone marrow. You just pressure cook bones or slow cook for several hours. It was recommended for me by a naturopath.
Drinking bone broth allows the body to absorb nutrients through the celluar tissue level which was said to be vital when our guts are not absorbing well.
My my weak shattered nails improved remarkably after starting it, but that was not the reason for taking it. Just a side benefit. I was instructed to do it becuase of substantial malabsorption nutrient deficiencies despite a relatively good diet.
Posts: 495 | From SF Bay area, CA | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Can you use HEMP protien instead of WHey??? Hemp I believe is a complete protien?
-------------------- "You'll be surprised to know how far you can go from the point you thought it was the end" Posts: 946 | From Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged |
lymeparfait
Unregistered
posted
My Aminoplex by Crayhon, sold by mossnutrition.com.
15 minutes after my first use, all my fibro type muscle pains have gone. Helps tremendously. Although it does not contain ascorbic acid or green tea, I do happen to supplement with ascorbic acid anyway each morning.
IP: Logged |
Other Ingredients: Hydrolized collagen, citric acid, natural mandarin orange and vanilla flavor, sucralose, xylitol, and silicon dioxide.
Does Not Contain: yeast, wheat gluten, soy protein, milk/dairy, corn, sodium, sugar, starch, artificial coloring or preservatives
DISCLAIMER: These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.
I am trying to figure out if these amounts would be similar to what Marnie is suggesting???? And can you find just the things that Marnie suggests singularly and how much of each???
I too supplement with Vitamin C and drink tons of Green Tea, but would be happy to add Green Tea extract to my diet.
-------------------- aka: Lyme Warrior
In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.
Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!
"Just Demand your Rights" Posts: 869 | From nor - cal | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Dr. F considers the "mystery bug" to feed on arginine, he recommends avoiding it, doesn't mean you need to. i'm just putting that information out there.
Posts: 59 | From Arizona | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
lymeparfait
Unregistered
posted
My ND recommended the My Aminoplex as she said her lyme patients and fibro patients all seem to muscle test strongly for this product and are deficient in amino acids when she muscle tests them.
She finds in general, that a balanced product of all the amino acids work to balance the body, and the body will eliminate the ones that are not necessary. This is a powder and is mixed with water or juice for quick absorption.
She does not recommend only taking one amino acid alone for this reason.
Although she does individually muscle test with ART, each patient. She only recommends this product for those who test positive for it.
I do not use it every day now...only when I test myself for the product....i have learned to do this with a biotenser which is extremely helpful for choosing the product my body needs today and now, and the dosage and time to take.
In the beginning, I needed this each day, and now I am more balanced I believe, as I have not tested positive to need it for the past month. Supplementing this is is not my priority for my body currently.
And I did experience very positive effects. I felt very normal for the first time, with no neck or back pain, cramping in my muscles,etc. I wish I knew about this product or at least about supplementing amino acids 20 years ago!
Marnie's research is amazing. She is right on! This product may not be what Marnie is suggesting with her research...but it has helped me! Individual amino acids could do something else all together...
I will always keep this in my arsenal of products!
IP: Logged |
aklnwlf
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 5960
posted
I've been on the Magic 5 going on week 2.
I bought them individually at the Vitamin Shoppe and they were not that expensive.
I bought alot of their brand because it was more cost effective.
I'm taking the recommended dosage on each bottle.
See my post for results if you'd like too.
Guinea Pig signing out.....
-------------------- Do not take this as medical advice. This comment is based on opinion and personal experience only.
Alaska Lone Wolf Posts: 6162 | From Columbus, GA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
I don't think we can say this or that works if we add ANY other things into the equation.
I think it is "cost effective" to try hard to zoom into the supps. that absolutely seem to work for everyone. Yea, I know we all eat different foods too which alone messes up the "trial" to a degree.
But...following the recommendations in the links above - to fight the various cancers - I'd try just those 5 for a few weeks and then evaluate the situation.
A lot of trial and error. I know. I would think if something truly works, it would only take a couple of days to notice a difference.
Logically, it likely would be very slight at first if horribly deficient.
For sure, Bb depletes a lot more than those 5 nutrients...Mg, B vitamins, etc.
But we gotta start somewhere and I thought it was very very odd that all those links mentioned the very same supplements to fight cancer (which follows the glycolysis pathway).
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
Marnie - what do you think about the ammonia issue??
Copying my post from another post about arginine and ammonia
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_285/ai_n19170382/pg_6/ Herpes viruses need arginine in order to continue replicating (Griffin et al. 1981). Armed now with the knowledge that Lyme spirochetes increase ammonia and mixing arginine with ammonia leads to increased brain swelling and energy deficits, addressing viruses becomes a very important issue in healing from Lyme disease.
Dietary supplementation with the amino-acid L-Lysine helps block the Herpes virus from replicating by several different mechanisms. L-Lysine limits the absorption of L-arginine in the gut; it promotes the rapid, enzymatic breakdown of L-arginine; and it generally antagonizes the growth-promoting actions of arginine on the Herpes viruses (Miller 1984).
Edited to add: From what this says, taking arginine for lyme patients seems contraindicated because the spirochetes cause increased ammonia and ammonia combined with arginine leads to increased brain swelling and energy deficits.
Also, those of us with certain methylation problems also have difficulty getting rid of ammonia thus we have even more ammonia.
Seems like anyone with lyme disease who is taking arginine without doing something to address excess ammonia is asking for trouble.
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
aklnwlf
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 5960
posted
TerryK,
Today have had a killer headache. Base of skull and back of neck pain so bad that I took 2 Diamox (diuretic) and a pain pill.
Now have a lot of tingling in my head, neck and face.
I've had this reaction before early in my treatment when I started on antibiotics.
I'm gonna post more in my thread about starting the magic 5.
-------------------- Do not take this as medical advice. This comment is based on opinion and personal experience only.
Alaska Lone Wolf Posts: 6162 | From Columbus, GA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
aklnwlf, So sorry to hear that you are having such a rough time of it. I'm a bit worried about the ammonia issue for you. Your symptoms seem like they could be related to brain swelling.
Perhaps back down on the supplements for now and get ammonia under control? Then go back on the supplements and at the same time try to keep ammonia under control.
Hope you feel better soon.
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
SEE MY OTHER POST TODAY RE: NH3 FOR ALASKA.
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic