Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
I remember a long time ago, on this board a lyme patient who went by the name of "Troutscout" said he felt a lot better when he drank Alka Seltzer.
Alka Seltzer contains Na Bicarbonate, aspirin and citric acid.
When we have metabolic acidosis, in the hospital IV Na bicarbonate is what is usually given.
Our pH (*potential of* hydrogen) is low in metabolic acidosis.
Metabolic acidosis can be caused by
too much hydrogen (the POTENTIAL is low) OR
not enough bicarbonate.
Since we know Bb is depleting us of Na and when we "herx" we are too acidic, it is logical that restoring those would help us to feel better i.e., restore Na and restore bicarbonates.
Those of you who are "into" taking a LOT of NaCl (sodium chloride) and vitamin C may want to read the following, please:
"Salt consumed in excessive amounts contributes to the current epidemics of hypertension and cardiovascular disease. Salt intake is a major determinant of extracellular fluid volume and extracellular fluid volume influences acid-base homeostasis.
In general, Western diets produce net acid and induce a low-grade metabolic acidosis proportional to the diet net acid load.
It has been shown that adding excess oral sodium chloride (NaCl) to a net base-producing diet for several days
slightly increased the blood hydrogen ion concentration (that is, decreased pH).
In a recent publication, Frassetto et al. examined whether the Cl content in the diet influences the amount of metabolic acidosis in healthy subjects.
In 77 subjects, dietary Cl was found to be an independently positive and negative predictor, respectively, of [H+] in blood and plasma [HCO3-].
(HCO3 is bicarbonate. The above indicates Cl increases H in the blood and decreases HCO3 in the plasma.)
Plasma [HCO3-] decreased by 1.2 mequiv./liter per 100 mequiv./day increase in urinary chloride excretion.
In other words,
***increasing the dietary NaCl was independently associated with increasing amounts of metabolic acidosis***.
What is driving bicarbonate down- Bb and/or the inflammatory cytokines?
Inflammatory cytokines:
"We found that high levels of TNF in our study children were *inversely correlated* with the levels of bicarbonate and base excess."
J Thorac Cardiovasc Surg 2002;124:991-998
Bb has a PKC INHIBITOR:
"In conclusion, activation of PKC increases bicarbonate and water absorption in the S1 and S2 PCT in vivo, and PKC may participate in as much as one-third of the transport stimulation induced by angiotensin II." PMID: 2330986
It appears BOTH Bb AND the inflammatory cytokines are driving bicarbonate down!
Recombinant CRP (C-reactive protein) suppressed ***insulin-induced NO production***, inhibited the phosphorylation of Akt and endothelial nitric oxide synthase, and stimulated the phosphorylation of IRS-1 [?]
Mol. Endocrinol. (2007) PMID: 17095576
IL1B looks to downregulate insulin release, but insulin would have induced NO production.
Look closely at the "magic five nutrients".
Reduce inflammation AND upregulate NO - to destroy Bb?
Get the inflammatory cytokines down...BOTH of them i.e., TNF alpha AND IL 1 B via anti-oxidants AND give the body "back" the amino acids that it needs to fight.
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
A way to increase Nitric Oxcide levels is to supplement with l-arginine and l-citruline. Both of these amino acids increase the endothelial production of NO.
I've noticed one of the main issues of a lyme body is dealing with an excess of ammonia. Arginine may not be produced enough, this ultimately lowers the bodies ability to heal and repair. I wouldn't be surprised if a combination of a lowered PH is also responsible for this reduction.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Bob...I think it is a dual thing...
Get the inflammatory cytokines down (via Vit C and Green Tea extract) and ALSO take the amino acids to help our defense system.
There are many things that can reduce inflammation like lactoferrin, but that is dependent on bicarbonates to work....
Finding the "right" anti-oxidants to tame down TNF alpha AND IL 1 B maybe critical.
Green tea extract comes in a capsule form, for those (of us) who don't like drinking green tea.
Arginine and lysine must be IN BALANCE.
Unless one already has the gene that is upregulating arginine (B16 arg/arg). Then MAYBE only lysine, proline, green tea and vitamin C.
But for most...they need the 5th supplement...arginine.
If you're thinking Viagra...
It is too "specific" for increasing NO levels at specific sites/areas...eyes and you - know - where.
I always wondered about nitroglycerine patches...are they too cell/area specific also?
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
Getting the PH down is important too. I recently checked my PH and it went as low as 5.25!! YIKES.
From what I've been reading, low PH fosters infection!! Might be why it is so hard for some of us to get rid of infections.
Many of us actually need more salt. Not talking about the levels in the salt/C protocol though. I think I mentioned before that when I was studied in a research hospital years ago they determined that I have what is termed a salt wasting syndrome. This also causes some issues with acidosis.
I need salt to keep my blood pressure up. Your info on salt lately has been very interesting in light of my test results.
Still don't understand it all yet but I'm slowly working on it and your posts are very helpful! Thanks for all the great posts Marnie!
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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glm1111
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 16556
posted
Marnie
Not sure what you mean by" those of you who are "into" taking a lot of sodium chloride and vitamin C" Sounds a little condescending to me. I wish people that posted negative info about salt would have a better understanding of this vital nutrient.
Please don't put" ALL" salt (table salt, processed salt etc) into the same category as sea salt. We are 75% saline which is very close to the same compostition as sea salt.
Sea salt is in a highly charged state it is static and will not store in your kidneys but pass through you as natural salts are meant to.
Table salt and processed salt is what may be contributing to hypertension because it is stripped of all the minerals and just stores in our cells like dead weight. Because of all the negative hype about "SALT" people do not consume enough of the healthy salts like sea salt.
We lose salt daily through perspiration etc and it needs to be replaced by healthy salts. If we lost blood everyday, we would need to replace it. Just common sense,
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Our NK = natural killer cells can ONLY work if the system is as it should be most of the time...slightly alkaline.
Natural killer cells destroy about 4 or 5 precancerous cells every day - in all of us.
We gotta get the blood pH level back to normal...which is:
the normal pH of BLOOD is in the range of 7.35 - 7.45
When the pH is down, we are in metabolic acidosis.
Do "acids" kill all pathogens?
Does our incredibly strong stomach acid, HCL, kill H. Pylori?
Nope.
I do understand the need to keep your BP up via Na...boy, this is a fine line!
It appears Bb does not like Ca, K, and is intentionally downregulating our bicarbonate system (buffering) -> ongoing metabolic acidosis.
And our inflammatory cytokines look to make a bad situation worse (also lowering bicarbonates).
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Gael...you might want to skip just to Tom Grier's link (last link) and his concerns about lyme patients taking a lot of vitamin C.
In the link above, look at the DOSES AND ROUTE (IV !!!) of vitamin C that were used (without NaCl). See HOW the high levels of Vitamin C work with relationship to insulin and glucose levels.
Insulin shock therapy didn't work (in Atlanta) though.
And besides Klenner's use of IV Vitamin C to cure polio , Dr. Neveu cured polio using MgCl.
While vitamin C IS one of the five nutrients in what appears to be a ``magical combination'' to treat MANY cancers, it maybe the combination of the 2 antioxidants (vitamin C, Green Tea) and 3 amino acids (lysine, arginine and praline) that can not only help in cancer, but perhaps in lyme disease as well.
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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