I am not the enforcer just putting in gentle reminders 
I grew up in Dutchess County in the fifties. Never saw a tick despite "exploring" the wooods & fields all around Poughkeepsie. Today that is a highly endemic area and ticks are plentiful.
Has global warming created a better environment for ticks? Has global warming killed off some unknown microscopic parasite that used to keep the tick pop. down? Is some bird now extinct that used to consume ticks? Is the increase in ticks really due to the increase in the deer population and/or to the increase in vegetation?
Quest
or off topic.[This message has been edited by treepatrol (edited 06 April 2005).]
Get out the turkey shooter and give em a blast!
Not mad at you, since you are right. Just aggravated at how many people seem to fall for this stuff.
Borrelia has been around a long time, but what we have here is not simply an increase in the strain that existed before.
That's evident in the nature of the disease and response to treatment, among many other things.
I agree there is no use in invalid "conspiracy theories"..but in this case there is much information that seems illogical to ignore at this point if we are to gain acknowledgement, research, adequate care, discrediting dangerous information on care, ect.
Mo
[This message has been edited by Mo (edited 06 April 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by lou:
Right, treepatrol, so how about running off the endless plum island posts? Get them to head for support or off topic, or off the wall. Seems like we have several of those running at the same time.Get out the turkey shooter and give em a blast!
Not mad at you, since you are right. Just aggravated at how many people seem to fall for this stuff.
Hey hey I did let them know Lou I am not the enforcer just putting in gentle reminders
some are backed up with good logic and scientific data.
these things can provide a motive for the bizarre highly unethical scientific research which has been promulgated by steere and klempner to name a couple which in any other field would have endangered or destroyed their careers not to mention the reasoning behind government approval of grants which has defied logic in some cases.
quote:
Originally posted by lou:
Right, treepatrol, so how about running off the endless plum island posts? Get them to head for support or off topic, or off the wall. Seems like we have several of those running at the same time.Get out the turkey shooter and give em a blast!
Not mad at you, since you are right. Just aggravated at how many people seem to fall for this stuff.
Corrupt and incompetent people are the cause of many problems. Don't need conspiracies to explain these things.
Yes, some of the same people are involved in Lyme research fraud and biowarfare. That just means they know how to milk the system of whatever money is flowing from the gov't. And they haven't a clue when it comes to morals and ethics. See, they fail on both counts: their scientific research and their ethics.
The "establishment", for lack of a better word, has made the word conspiracy look foolish...like a conspiracy is science fiction. Of course you will think this is another conspiracy theory..but it's not a theory , it's a fact. Making people look foolish or accusing them of being a traitor for questioning the things going on around them, is a well known tactic used by governments or others who are in control and want to stay in control.
Dictionary definition of conspiracy....."An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful or subversive act. An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action. "
This happens constantly in our world. We are supposed to question these things. Don't fall for it when people tell you everything is fine and you know it isn't. Stand up for what is right and don't worry about if others think you are a conspiracy theorist. They are the ones with their heads outside the sand trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together. Be grateful that we have a mind to question things.
Lyme patients, are often singled out for this treatment, might be expected to know better.
This would, however, be naive. In real life, nothing is more common than for the victims of evil acts to deny that anyone means them harm.
In the early days of the Nazis, there were plenty of Jews in Germany saying 'things are bad enough, without us raising these hysterical specters.'
What is far fetched is imagining that research with zoonotic pathogens, like that carried out at the Plum Island facility, is likely to be 'safe' and 'well-contained'. Unlike warheads, ticks and other vectors actively resist efforts at containment.
If someone says 'I know for a fact that the Lyme epidemic is a product of bioweapons research,' I would question that. I haven't seen anything that constitutes proof.
But for heaven's sake, almost nothing related to this disease is settled by the facts (which are few in number and are themselves often subject to dispute, in a way that facts about syphilis, for example, are not).
Is it a 'fact' that most people who pursue high-dose, ILADs-style antibiotic treatment will get well? No. Are we all wildly irrational, because we insist on our right to that treatment, in the absence of compelling proof of its efficacy? Again, no. It is at least possible, consistent with accepted facts, that this strategy will work.
The evidence for a link between bioweapons research and Lyme may be only suggestive, not conclusive. One could compare it to a criminal charge based on circumstantial evidence. Only in this case, the state, not some private party, stands accused. States do not voluntarily produce documentation of their crimes, nor do they turn their police powers against themselves.
The LOGIC of the situation dictates that only citizens can investigate such a crime and seek remedy if they feel the charge is just.
People who seek to exercise there civic responsibility can make mistakes. Not every charge made against the state by its citizens is accurate. But to mock people for making the effort is really unconscionable.
[This message has been edited by lou (edited 06 April 2005).]
They would warn settlers of a 'curse' in the hills, to not go up there, since so many of their own suffered as a result.
They were talking about Babs.
But I am sure the Native Americans were healthier to fight the diseases as a result of diet and exercise.
I think it's reported more now due to better testing and awareness, and due to the suburbs expanding into wooded areas. All of the wildlife gets compressed into smaller and smaller squared miles.
Back in the day, they would call it "Neurological Disease", "Depression" and "MS", among other mis-diagnosed diseases.
quote:
Originally posted by CA quest:
Even though conspiracies are more fun, let us use logic. Quest
With respect, is it logical that people should be refused appropriate diagnosis and treatment for decades, despite overwhelming evidence that Lyme is not "hard to catch, easy to cure", nor restricted to an arthritis, nor always characterised by a bullseye rash etc?
Is it logical that such a disproportionate numnber of key doctors , scientists and government officials responsible for that refusal should turn out to be from the field of biowarfare? Plus the inevitable insurance, vaccine and biotech company whores etc.
An increase in ticks will obviously cause an increase in tick-borne disease. But that does not detract from the other issues mentioned above, nor does it explain the cruelty and stubborn refusal of the Steere camp to help Lyme patients.
Lisa
But that in itself provides a rationale and a logic why the Steere camp fraud is DELIBERATE, and that in itself needs exposing.
I don't believe it's simply a matter of "incompetence" - many of the worst Steere camp swine are among the top in their field scientifically.
However, having their snouts in the trough of insurance money (as some of them proudly admit to), or of Glaxo SmithKline etc, would not explain the extremely disproportionate number of biowarfaremen and elite military ID personnel involved.
I agree with you that the recent influx of money into biowarfare research would obviously attract anyone who's skilled in the art of milking the taxpayer. But that money only started flowing relatively recently (as far as what we have been told anyway), and only really big-time after 9-11.
If you examine the background of most of these bastards, they were in that field long long before then.
Lisa
quote:
Originally posted by lou:
I am even boring myself, repeating this so often:Corrupt and incompetent people are the cause of many problems. Don't need conspiracies to explain these things.
Yes, some of the same people are involved in Lyme research fraud and biowarfare. That just means they know how to milk the system of whatever money is flowing from the gov't. And they haven't a clue when it comes to morals and ethics. See, they fail on both counts: their scientific research and their ethics.
I have no problem with the suggestion to take the biowar discussion of "Medical" (it's already in existence on "General support".)
But I can imagine many medical questions where it may pop up again.
Lisa
quote:
Originally posted by paulscha:
Characterizing other human beings as irrational because you don't like what they're saying is a bad habit.Lyme patients, are often singled out for this treatment, might be expected to know better.
This would, however, be naive. In real life, nothing is more common than for the victims of evil acts to deny that anyone means them harm.
In the early days of the Nazis, there were plenty of Jews in Germany saying 'things are bad enough, without us raising these hysterical specters.'
What is far fetched is imagining that research with zoonotic pathogens, like that carried out at the Plum Island facility, is likely to be 'safe' and 'well-contained'. Unlike warheads, ticks and other vectors actively resist efforts at containment.
If someone says 'I know for a fact that the Lyme epidemic is a product of bioweapons research,' I would question that. I haven't seen anything that constitutes proof.
But for heaven's sake, almost nothing related to this disease is settled by the facts (which are few in number and are themselves often subject to dispute, in a way that facts about syphilis, for example, are not).
Is it a 'fact' that most people who pursue high-dose, ILADs-style antibiotic treatment will get well? No. Are we all wildly irrational, because we insist on our right to that treatment, in the absence of compelling proof of its efficacy? Again, no. It is at least possible, consistent with accepted facts, that this strategy will work.
The evidence for a link between bioweapons research and Lyme may be only suggestive, not conclusive. One could compare it to a criminal charge based on circumstantial evidence. Only in this case, the state, not some private party, stands accused. States do not voluntarily produce documentation of their crimes, nor do they turn their police powers against themselves.
The LOGIC of the situation dictates that only citizens can investigate such a crime and seek remedy if they feel the charge is just.
People who seek to exercise there civic responsibility can make mistakes. Not every charge made against the state by its citizens is accurate. But to mock people for making the effort is really unconscionable.
You would like to focus on logic.
Using this kind of reasoning, where do you think the lyme numbers are going to be 5 years from now, 10 years from now.
Logic would tell us that the numbers are going to be staggering!
Using logic again, do you think that if our medical system can not or will not handle the number of lyme patients we have now - do you think it will be able to handle it 5 or 10 years from now...
...especially when we consider that we don't have big research dollars (besides Fallon do we have any other research) passionately working on this NO. 1 emerging infectious disease in the country. Also, consider the lack of new antibiotics in our arsenal and the issue of antibiotic resistance.
Most of us are just getting by. We are the "lucky" ones. We have been diagnosed and some of us are being treated. However, many of us are incapacitated/disabled and not contributing to our nation's productivity.
What will happen to our society's productivity when even more people are disabled? Just look at the generation of children with this disease. These children will one day be our leaders. How will they lead if they are incapacitated? Without a medical miracle I don't think that my two children will be contributing to the productivity of our society. They won't be the leaders that I always dreamed they would be. They are both disabled and I can only hope that we will be able to find the right medications to have healthly and productive lives.
We all know that the numbers are rising. What happens when this explodes? Do you honestly believe we will be prepared for this epidemic?
One can say that it is rarely fatal now (which I question, because of its multi-organ system complexities. We really don't know how many illnesses like ADD, autism, MS, ALS or deaths from suicides, alzheimers, kidney or cardiovascular diseases are due to complications stemming from Lyme because it hasn't been considered and investigated in the last 20-30 years.
So if lyme is associated with any of the diseases mentioned above and we are not prepared when this disease hits us even harder...logically is our healthcare system going to be prepared to handle the onslaught?
If there are those that want to hammer out the conspiracy theory here, it should be welcomed. This forum is exactly the place this should be allowed to happen. We are here for answers.
I don't want to put my head in the sand. I want the truth. If we have to look under every rock, what is the harm?
I have been naive for 20 years. I believed that the best medical system in the world was going to take care of me. I have been slapped around pretty hard this past year, but at least I woke up. Even though I had been told by the CDC in '85 that I was cured, I used logic and deductive reasoning to figure out that I still had Lyme disease. It isn't an accident that 20+ drs. just this past year were not able to figure out why I am in a wheelchair. It was my better judgement and guidance that unlocked this mystery. I am going to use that same judgement and guidance to discover what is really going on. It is cathartic. It is not anger that propels me forward, although I have had this most natural response to the injustices we are living. It is my natural curiousity and interest in improving this disaster that propels me towards finding answers. We won't be able to make much headway unless we blow this wide open.
Other theories like global warming, deer populations should be welcomed as well because the bottome line is that we should investigate any and all leads that could lead us in the direction of finding out why we are ignored, ridiculed and denied proper medical care. Logic has the hair on the back of my neck standing up regarding this disease. Something is not right. Perhaps it is more apparent to those who have gone 10-20+ years without a diagnosis. Those of us who have endured this realize a general trend ...that all of the drs., the top specialists in the country were kindly showing us the way to the psych wards.
We need answers so that we can have strategies.
quote:
Originally posted by Paisley:
Even though I had been told by the CDC in '85 that I was cured, I used logic and deductive reasoning to figure out that I still had Lyme disease. It isn't an accident that 20+ drs. just this past year were not able to figure out why I am in a wheelchair. It was my better judgement and guidance that unlocked this mystery. I am going to use that same judgement and guidance to discover what is really going on. ........We need answers so that we can have strategies.
If we can only gather enough people with that kind of determination to get to the bottom of this fraud, the Steere camp would soon be sunk.
Lisa
Lisa
Think I have heard too much of this kind of thing over the years to be convinced that it will lead to any action. Just look at the more modest goals and see that those don't even have adequate support.
And finally, Lisa, you have been thru a lot, but I find it wearing to have you keep sledgehammering. Sorry. I really am sympathetic and glad you have retained some spunk.
To me, these threads seem to be giving everyone a chance to share thoughts on this..
thread topics on are open so they may be discussed..right?
I mean, otherwise it shouldn't be on a Lyme/medical board in which members of the group have their own thoughts and opinions/info on the issue..
In that case..one should just print a closed statement in some other sort of venue.
Mo
And Lou....it's not just Plum Island we are concerned about. That is just the tip of the iceberg. Our modest goals don't have enough support because they are being blocked by financial and ideological concerns of those who seem to have the power. We need to ask more questions and not be so trusting of the government in order to get the Truth out and UNBLOCK the underlying reasons why we cannot get treated. If we do not uncover their efforts.... which are under the protection of secrecy... they will continue to block any positive efforts we put forth.I kept bringing this fact up at our CT Hearing planning committee. Most people said to me...oh yes...we know this is going on but we must be credible. This uncovering business can always wait till later when we have our foot in the door. Well, needless to say nothing really productive came out of the Hearing. The Attorney General did come up with 1 good statement directed towards the CDC. He stongly suggested to them that they send out some sort of notice or warning to all Health Departments, doctors, labs, etc...NOT to use the CDC criteria when diagnosing Lyme. It's been a year since the Hearing and instead of fulfilling this request the CDC has diverted everyone's attention from the diagnostic criteria and is placing focus on labs and putting down their tests which are discovering the true proportions of the epidemic. They are also attacking all the websites which post information contrary to their information. In other words they are saying that only government info and studies are valid. I think we need to point this out.
I also feel that all this "uncovering" does not have to be done in a vengeful or hateful manner. If we want to get anywhere I think we have to be wise, firm and just but yet hold forgiveness and Love in our hearts.Otherwise our world will never change. We will just keep fighting back and forth...pulling and tugging at each other. "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." They really don't know what they are doing in the long range spiritual scheme of things.
The people who commit crimes against humanity are full of fear...fear of not having enough...fear of not being loved and accepted....etc. So we have to try not to feed into that fear which would only add more to the turmoil we are already facing.
I think that the posters here are doing a good job. :=)
If you feel that the point of view of people who believe that there is a very significant military/biowarfare side of the Lyme tragedy is wrong/misleading etc, why not just avoid the thread?
After all, it was pretty clear both from this thread and the one started by Daniella about Lab 257, what the subject matter was.
I have never heard of anyone being censored, threatened or expelled from a Lyme group for not believing there is a significant biowar-related aspect of the Lyme issue.
On the contrary, I HAVE seen that type of thing happen to those who do believe it, talk about it, etc..
Many people including me have given our point of view backed up by evidence. That is not a "rant". If you want to persuade us that we're wrong, you have to provide good logical arguments to prove it, not just throw words like "rant" and "conspiracy theory" at us.
Or, if you feel the whole discussion is a waste of time, why not just ignore us, and leave those of us who do want to discuss it , to do so?
Lisa
quote:
Originally posted by lou:
I guess we don't get to say what we think. Seemed like one measely thread was not too much to ask for those of us who don't buy the Plum Island scenarios. Do you all who do believe this think that great long rants on internet forums is going to change any of this?Think I have heard too much of this kind of thing over the years to be convinced that it will lead to any action. Just look at the more modest goals and see that those don't even have adequate support.
And finally, Lisa, you have been thru a lot, but I find it wearing to have you keep sledgehammering. Sorry. I really am sympathetic and glad you have retained some spunk.
If you were designing a weapon, wouldn't you want one that IMMEDIATELY imobilizes your opponent?
But as to origins, the LAST thing we need as patient reps or advocates is to bring in conspiracy theories!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The best paper re Bb as far as infecting human population is, because it was long long ago- and ALSO because it was published in a field unconcerned with Lyme politics-
is- Bb from the skeletal remains of a prehistoric swampified childs body:
1: Am J Phys Anthropol. 1998 Jun;106(2):229-48. Related Articles, Links
Prehistoric juvenile rheumatoid arthritis in a precontact Louisiana native population reconsidered.
Lewis BA.
Department of Geography and Anthropology, Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge, USA. [email protected]
Descriptions of skeletal pathological conditions evident in the prehistoric Tchefuncte adolescent 16ST1-14883b are clarified. The basis is reaffirmed for assigning to the described pathological conditions a diagnostic perspective of juvenile rheumatoid arthritis or juvenile Lyme disease--a disease that mimics juvenile rheumatoid arthritis in its arthritic presentation--rather than of assigning them as representative of juvenile onset ankylosing spondylitis or other juvenile spondyloarthropathies. A hypothesis (Lewis [1994] Am. J. Phys. Anthropol. 93:455-475) is restated that 1) the spirochete Borrelia burgdorferi was the infectious agent responsible for prevalence of adult rheumatoid arthritis in prehistoric southeastern Native American populations, 2) that B. burgdorferi is a possible cause of the arthritis evident in individual 16ST1-14883b, and 3) that antibodies to B. burgdorferi provided partial immunity to the related spirochete Treponema pallidum for the 16ST1 precontact Tchefuncte population from Louisiana, protecting them from severe treponemal response. Given the probable widespread existence of Ixodid tick vectors for B. burgdorferi in prehistoric North America, coupled with the existence of treponematosis, it follows that the transition of Native American hunting-gathering economies to more sedentary economies would predictably be linked to an increased incidence of treponematosis due to the loss of benefits of the above-stated partial immunity. In other words, as prehistoric Native American exposure to tick vectors for B. burgdorferi decreased, susceptibility to treponematosis increased. Inferences regarding biological controls interacting with and influencing prehistoric Native American migration patterns are suggested from the link of B. burgdorferi to an Ixodid tick common to northeast Asia.
Publication Types:
Historical Article
PMID: 9637186 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another doctor, not LL, writes that DDT was falsely credited with cancers and the politicians who outlawed DDT didn't have the vaguest idea what they were doing. A 9000 page report was issued saying (supposedly) that DDT was NOT responsible for cancer but politicians wanting votes didn't bother to read the report.
Of course you get to say what you think. But I havn't heard what you think yet. What are your theories and some potential strategies to unlocking the truth?
The best public evidnce to date points towards something you don't want to consider. Is there a reason for that?
I do not consider myself ranting, rather brainstorming. I may not have the answers, but let's say that others who come to this forum begin to learn from our threads - isn't it possible that they may some how become involved in advocacy?
But to shut it down means that no one learns anything other than should we be taking Vit. b12 shots or not.
I had a good friend that was pretty high up in the military and went to Vietnam and Gulf War. He just passed away recently. Two days before he died I asked if he had a theory about his illness. He told me that he believed that it was the agent orange sprayed on them and the vaccinations from the Gulf War. So to pretend that our goverernment always has our best interest at heart is probably a bit naive at this point.
I don't know how much your are involvement in lyme advocacy. I don't want to underestimate your participation. Frankly, this is the most I do at this point.
But when you say: "Do you all who do believe this think that great long rants on internet forums is going to change any of this?"
Do you believe that not doing anything is going to change anything? Do you believe that by tossing these ideas around in a safe place and trying to culltivate some kind of collective concsiousness based on the facts (whatever they turn out to be) is a bad thing?
Even the modest goals deserve to have a life expectancy if we are going to change any of this.
Don't mean to give you a hard time Lou, but, should we just throw up our hands and say oh well, my children and I are going to be plagued by poor healthcare and we might as well expect to be treated like ***t.
military
quote:
Originally posted by lou:
I guess we don't get to say what we think. Seemed like one measely thread was not too much to ask for those of us who don't buy the Plum Island scenarios. Do you all who do believe this think that great long rants on internet forums is going to change any of this?Think I have heard too much of this kind of thing over the years to be convinced that it will lead to any action. Just look at the more modest goals and see that those don't even have adequate support.
And finally, Lisa, you have been thru a lot, but I find it wearing to have you keep sledgehammering. Sorry. I really am sympathetic and glad you have retained some spunk.
Another tactic used is combining several agents and spreading them through vectors.Also adding parts of one microbe and inserting them into another. We certainly have a plethora of tickborne diseases. Combinations or Russian Doll cocktails make these diseases very difficult to diagnose and treat.
When a population is hit suddenly by an infectious agent which kills this alerts people to the danger and they quarantine and get out the antibiotics...which will abort the epidemic.
What appears to be happening is lyme, mycoplasmas,babesia, erlichia, viruses...etc...are slowly passing through the population causing different forms of disease and that's why we are having a huge onslaught of so called autoimmune diseases and conditions. I don't blame most of the doctors...they mostly believe what they are told but I do feel that those higher up know very well what is going on. It's all in our heads so in the meantime it's probably passing to others through the blood supply, intercourse, through the placenta , etc. Everyone says..."Oh this is how it's always been...they just never had names for these diseases before." I don't think so. Just about everyone I know has something wrong with them and if we don't wake up I believe our country will indeed become disabled.
What these people might or might not do cannot be predicted on the basis of conventional notions of logic or morality.
In any case, all I have ever suggested is that Plum Island really does carry out the type of research declared in its public documents, research into zoonotic pathogens, that these pathogens are likely to have been manipulated in various ways and that because they are carried by living organisms containment is problematic.
That this had been going on for some time about 10 miles by water from Lyme Conneticut is hardly controversial. Nor is the notion that people have become ill as a result owe its origin to hysterical paranoids; as far as I can tell, people in the region suspected this before Lyme was ever named.
In other words, what is being implied is not a conspiracy of omniscient devils but an ill-conceived venture carried out by men whose dispositions and official roles dispose them to secrecy.
Perhaps Lou's position is that the national security state is a model of openness and rationality. I studied the national security state for years in the process of getting my degree in politics, and have reached a different conclusion.
But nothing Lou or I could say would comfort anyone living near a facility like Plum Island, who watched their community overtaken by a zoonotic pathogen that is, contra Steere and the rest, difficult to diagnose and highly resistant to treatment.
It's reasonable to insist that we not overstate the case - to my knowledge, there is no PROOF that Bb has been manipulated or 'weaponized', just a lot of very suggestive evidence that would lend credibility to that idea.
The proximity of the Plum Island facility to Lyme, however, given that facilities STATED purpose, would create doubts in any mind that was even slightly open to receiving them.
I did take note of the post about the swamp relic, but there is nothing conclusive about it. They don't even know that the relic represents an actual case of Lyme disease, they just think, again, that there is a fair bit of evidence to make that credible. It says something, that a prehistoric corpse dredged from a swamp is considered a very 'scientific' way to dismiss this whole concern.
Did spirochetes make people ill prior to the 20th century? Almost certainly. That in no way diminishes the possibility that the version of Lyme disease which exploded on the scene in the last third of the 20th century was modified at, or relased from, Plum Island.
Conspiracy is the way a certain part of the world does business - I don't know anyone who really believes that all the decisions which affect great numbers of human beings are carried out in public, or that decisions which cause great harm to multitudes are quickly admitted to. Such views are neither logical nor informed by history.
Conspiracy theory can be a kind of addiction, I suppose, but the voices that have raised concerns here about Plum Island are not those of conspiracy junkies. We come to the concern reluctantly, wishing it were as easy to dismiss as people like Lou imply.
Indeed, the world Lou's comments project is in every sense preferable to the world in which we actually live.
Incompetence, however costly, is ultimately a self-limiting proposition. What must concern us is the marriage of modern technological advances like those used in biowarfare to the bureaucratic ineptitude and habitual secrecy of the national security state.
This is, as I have said before, a concern that transcends narrow political biases, that is properly shared by sane people on all sides of the political spectrum, and should be a uniting force for corrective action.
It was only a few days ago that victims of Nazi medical experiments were granted another round of compensation from the European Union, some 60 years after the fall of the Nazi regime. A few thousand Euros, too little, too late by over half a century.
I can assure you, though, that when those heinous experiments were being conducted, there were all sorts of people around the world who heard rumor of them and said 'No, no, the Nazis are a bad lot but they're not THAT bad, after all they are only men, not devils.'
The thing to grasp is that men can become devils far more readily than any of us like to believe, particularly when their activities are cloaked in secrecy. The failure to learn this lesson casts a shadow of meaninglessness on what are already the darkest chapters of recent history.
I agree with your point about human nature.
I like your writing.
I think politically it does us more wrong than right to have conspiracy theories re origin, that's all.
You asked, wouldn't they want an incapacitant that acted immediately? That's a very good question.
IMO, the military want different agents for different jobs. There will be occasions when they want an agent that incapacitates dramatically and immediately, and the declassified documents on the www.sunshine-project.org speak in detail about that kind of thing.
But on other occasions, they may actually prefer something that incapacitates some time after dispersal of the agent. This latter would be ideal if they were hoping the pathogen would spread massively through the target population by droplet spread (coughing etc). If the germ acted immediately in a very dramatic way, the enemy's doctors would arrange for isolation procedures, areas would be quarantined off, etc etc. An infection that had a two-week incubation period or a mild onset would not alert them in that way.
However, biowarfaremen might want that delay too (or a longer one) if they had implanted infected ticks into a target area. This would allow a certain time period for the infection to spread into the local eco-system, before doctors and scientists realised that a)there was an outbreak of a serious incapacitating disease, and b)it was a man-made epidemic and c)it was tick-borne.
Remember, by the time Polly Murray and her neighbours realised something was very wrong, birds may have spread the strain(s) of Bb concerned all over the country and to other countries too.
Further, a pathogen that incapacitated some people soon after they came into contact with it, while others came down with incapacitating symptoms some months later, would tend to confuse medical staff pretty effectively. (Just look at how confused most docs are when faced with Lyme, and that's in a situation where they **already know** the tick-bite connection, and with accurate information available if they cared to look for it, with IlADS guidelines etc often shoved under their noses these days by the patient.
Add to that a huge range of different symptoms, with many of the patterns mimicking known (but incurable and incapacitating) diseases like MS, ALS, rheumatoid arthritis, schizophrenia, etc etc - that might be a wise choice from the point of view of a biowarfareman without moral qualms about crippling civilians. (And frankly, I don't think offensive biowarfaremen are the kind who have those qualms - they think it's sissy.)
That's one scenario - there are also many others, and many different reasons why the military might want to control the flow if information about TBD and spin it to make it seem there was no epidemic of an incapacitating disease. (Just an unconnected rise in MS cases, ADD, Parkinsons etc and a mass outbreak of public hysteria and people all over the world imagining they are incapacitated with the same set of symptoms as each other : (
Lisa
You asked, wouldn't they want an incapacitant that acted immediately? That's a very good question.
IMO, the military want different agents for different jobs. There will be occasions when they want an agent that incapacitates dramatically and immediately, and the declassified documents on the www.sunshine-project.org speak in detail about that kind of thing.
But on other occasions, they may actually prefer something that incapacitates some time after dispersal of the agent. This latter would be ideal if they were hoping the pathogen would spread massively through the target population by droplet spread (coughing etc). If the germ acted immediately in a very dramatic way, the enemy's doctors would arrange for isolation procedures, areas would be quarantined off, etc etc. An infection that had a two-week incubation period or a mild onset would not alert them in that way.
However, biowarfaremen might want that delay too (or a longer one) if they had implanted infected ticks into a target area. This would allow a certain time period for the infection to spread into the local eco-system, before doctors and scientists realised that a)there was an outbreak of a serious incapacitating disease, and b)it was a man-made epidemic and c)it was tick-borne.
Remember, by the time Polly Murray and her neighbours realised something was very wrong, birds may have spread the strain(s) of Bb concerned all over the country and to other countries too.
Further, a pathogen that incapacitated some people soon after they came into contact with it, while others came down with incapacitating symptoms some months later, would tend to confuse medical staff pretty effectively. (Just look at how confused most docs are when faced with Lyme, and that's in a situation where they **already know** the tick-bite connection, and with accurate information available if they cared to look for it, with IlADS guidelines etc often shoved under their noses these days by the patient.
Add to that a huge range of different symptoms, with many of the patterns mimicking known (but incurable and incapacitating) diseases like MS, ALS, rheumatoid arthritis, schizophrenia, etc etc - that might be a wise choice from the point of view of a biowarfareman without moral qualms about crippling civilians. (And frankly, I don't think offensive biowarfaremen are the kind who have those qualms - they think it's sissy.)
That's one scenario - there are also many others, and many different reasons why the military might want to control the flow if information about TBD and spin it to make it seem there was no epidemic of an incapacitating disease. (Just an unconnected rise in MS cases, ADD, Parkinsons etc and a mass outbreak of public hysteria and people all over the world imagining they are incapacitated with the same set of symptoms as each other : (
Lisa
You asked, wouldn't they want an incapacitant that acted immediately? That's a very good question.
IMO, the military want different agents for different jobs. There will be occasions when they want an agent that incapacitates dramatically and immediately, and the declassified documents on the www.sunshine-project.org speak in detail about that kind of thing.
But on other occasions, they may actually prefer something that incapacitates some time after dispersal of the agent. This latter would be ideal if they were hoping the pathogen would spread massively through the target population by droplet spread (coughing etc). If the germ acted immediately in a very dramatic way, the enemy's doctors would arrange for isolation procedures, areas would be quarantined off, etc etc. An infection that had a two-week incubation period or a mild onset would not alert them in that way.
However, biowarfaremen might want that delay too (or a longer one) if they had implanted infected ticks into a target area. This would allow a certain time period for the infection to spread into the local eco-system, before doctors and scientists realised that a)there was an outbreak of a serious incapacitating disease, and b)it was a man-made epidemic and c)it was tick-borne.
Remember, by the time Polly Murray and her neighbours realised something was very wrong, birds may have spread the strain(s) of Bb concerned all over the country and to other countries too.
Further, a pathogen that incapacitated some people soon after they came into contact with it, while others came down with incapacitating symptoms some months later, would tend to confuse medical staff pretty effectively. (Just look at how confused most docs are when faced with Lyme, and that's in a situation where they **already know** the tick-bite connection, and with accurate information available if they cared to look for it, with IlADS guidelines etc often shoved under their noses these days by the patient.
Add to that a huge range of different symptoms, with many of the patterns mimicking known (but incurable and incapacitating) diseases like MS, ALS, rheumatoid arthritis, schizophrenia, etc etc - that might be a wise choice from the point of view of a biowarfareman without moral qualms about crippling civilians. (And frankly, I don't think offensive biowarfaremen are the kind who have those qualms - they think it's sissy.)
That's just one scenario - there are also many others, and many different reasons why the military might want to control the flow if information about TBD and spin it to make it seem there was no epidemic of an incapacitating disease. (Just an unconnected rise in MS cases, ADD, Parkinsons etc and a mass outbreak of public hysteria and people all over the world imagining they are incapacitated with the same set of symptoms as each other 
Lisa
All opponenets to Hitler were now labeled "terrorists", laws were passed quickly suspending civil liberties, and the rest is history. History has shown that Hitler's own minions set the Rheichstag fire, as it created the event to enrage the populace into utter revolt against Hitler's opposition.
Does this scenario sound vaguely familiar ?
History has shown that governments may go to any extreme to consolidate/preserve power, if left unfettered.
The US government has been successfully sued for exposing an unwitting population to radiation, psychotropic drugs, dangerous chemical exposure, and a host of other evils. This is well documentated proven fact, aired in a court of law.
To think that for one minute the government would hesitate to experiment with ticks, and horrific pathogens, defies logic.
What are the odds that Plum Island and Lyme, CT. are in such close proximity, and the first major outbreak of a virulent strain of Bb is recorded there ? Coincidence ?
Does it benefit our cause to get decent awareness and treatment of lyme to implicate Plum Island?
Anything that's proven to be true, helps our cause. Wherever the chips may fall, so be it.
The fact that the Steere camp is purposely downplaying lyme severity, and encouraging poor diagnostic techniques, only reinforces the case, that these people have something to hide. It's more than mere bruised ego's these folks are afraid of, by being proven wrong.
You see, if realising that lyme is a long term, severe, debilitating disease, and difficult to treat, someone is going to ask why that is so ?
When that question is finally asked and scientifically investigated, where does it lead back to ? That's precisely why in my estimation, they have to fight so vigorously now, so that question can never be asked.
However, it's inevitable, and the truth will come out. Our LLMD said as much, when he stated, that it's like trying to put toothpaste back in the tube. As more become infected, more awareness is raised, and the demand for treatment becomes louder. It's self-perpetuating, and light will be shown upon it.
[This message has been edited by NP40 (edited 08 April 2005).]
serially cultured laboratory strains are also not a good way of saving the evidence...they lose so much genetic information in passaging it's useless.
quote:
Originally posted by NP40:
Hitler was consolidating his power in pre-war Germany, but he still had opposition. Suddenly, the German Rheichstag [German Congress] burst into flames one evening. The arsonists blamed immediately were the opposition to Hitler's goals.All opponenets to Hitler were now labeled "terrorists", laws were passed quickly suspending civil liberties, and the rest is history. History has shown that Hitler's own minions set the Rheichstag fire, as it created the event to enrage the populace into utter revolt against Hitler's opposition.
Does this scenario sound vaguely familiar ?
History has shown that governments may go to any extreme to consolidate/preserve power, if left unfettered.
The US government has been successfully sued for exposing an unwitting population to radiation, psychotropic drugs, dangerous chemical exposure, and a host of other evils. This is well documentated proven fact, aired in a court of law.
To think that for one minute the government would hesitate to experiment with ticks, and horrific pathogens, defies logic.
What are the odds that Plum Island and Lyme, CT. are in such close proximity, and the first major outbreak of a virulent strain of Bb is recorded there ? Coincidence ?
Does it benefit our cause to get decent awareness and treatment of lyme to implicate Plum Island?
Anything that's proven to be true, helps our cause. Wherever the chips may fall, so be it.
The fact that the Steere camp is purposely downplaying lyme severity, and encouraging poor diagnostic techniques, only reinforces the case, that these people have something to hide. It's more than mere bruised ego's these folks are afraid of, by being proven wrong.
You see, if realising that lyme is a long term, severe, debilitating disease, and difficult to treat, someone is going to ask why that is so ?
When that question is finally asked and scientifically investigated, where does it lead back to ? That's precisely why in my estimation, they have to fight so vigorously now, so that question can never be asked.
However, it's inevitable, and the truth will come out. Our LLMD said as much, when he stated, that it's like trying to put toothpaste back in the tube. As more become infected, more awareness is raised, and the demand for treatment becomes louder. It's self-perpetuating, and light will be shown upon it.
[This message has been edited by NP40 (edited 08 April 2005).]
the US cannot be defeated in a conventional way. And nuclear warfare just results in a world wide holocaust.
the US will fall by being eaten away from the inside.
perhaps the US was experimenting on just this sort of warfare, thinking of disabling the soviets, and it backfired and we infected ourselves.
now let me ask you a question. a new disease pops up at the height of the cold war in the most densely populated part of the country. Don't you think that there have been investigations into this outbreak beyond steere?
steere is a puppet, an evil puppet who knows that he can get away with a lot because the government cannot admit the truth. he might even think of himself as a patriot.
quote:
Originally posted by CaliforniaLyme:
The only Lyme conspiracies I believe in are those talked about by Attorney General of CT Richard Blumenthal re insurance industry and those arisen by ignorance of people like STeere and perpetuated by perhaps more than simply ignorance... People like McSweegan make me wonder sometimes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But as to origins, the LAST thing we need as patient reps or advocates is to bring in conspiracy theories!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!The best paper re Bb as far as infecting human population is, because it was long long ago- and ALSO because it was published in a field unconcerned with Lyme politics-
is- Bb from the skeletal remains of a prehistoric swampified childs body:1: Am J Phys Anthropol. 1998 Jun;106(2):229-48. Related Articles, Links
Prehistoric juvenile rheumatoid arthritis in a precontact Louisiana native population reconsidered.Lewis BA.
Department of Geography and Anthropology, Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge, USA. [email protected]
Descriptions of skeletal pathological conditions evident in the prehistoric Tchefuncte adolescent 16ST1-14883b are clarified. The basis is reaffirmed for assigning to the described pathological conditions a diagnostic perspective of juvenile rheumatoid arthritis or juvenile Lyme disease--a disease that mimics juvenile rheumatoid arthritis in its arthritic presentation--rather than of assigning them as representative of juvenile onset ankylosing spondylitis or other juvenile spondyloarthropathies. A hypothesis (Lewis [1994] Am. J. Phys. Anthropol. 93:455-475) is restated that 1) the spirochete Borrelia burgdorferi was the infectious agent responsible for prevalence of adult rheumatoid arthritis in prehistoric southeastern Native American populations, 2) that B. burgdorferi is a possible cause of the arthritis evident in individual 16ST1-14883b, and 3) that antibodies to B. burgdorferi provided partial immunity to the related spirochete Treponema pallidum for the 16ST1 precontact Tchefuncte population from Louisiana, protecting them from severe treponemal response. Given the probable widespread existence of Ixodid tick vectors for B. burgdorferi in prehistoric North America, coupled with the existence of treponematosis, it follows that the transition of Native American hunting-gathering economies to more sedentary economies would predictably be linked to an increased incidence of treponematosis due to the loss of benefits of the above-stated partial immunity. In other words, as prehistoric Native American exposure to tick vectors for B. burgdorferi decreased, susceptibility to treponematosis increased. Inferences regarding biological controls interacting with and influencing prehistoric Native American migration patterns are suggested from the link of B. burgdorferi to an Ixodid tick common to northeast Asia.
Publication Types:
Historical ArticlePMID: 9637186 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
He was thretoned by a man in army fatigues and got rid of the papers,in the basement of Mayo clinic.
It was simply an accident lyme got loose, the ticks were droped from an airplane onto plumb island for an expirenment and got carried away by sea birds before they sprayed the island.
Simply done by people educated beyond their intellegence. MADDOG
My overview is as follows:
Yes spirochetes are ancient. Yes borrelia existed a long time ago. However my hunch is that it was far less virulent. It was not causing ALS, lupus, etc. Also, it was not as commonly part of a soup of pathogens, it seems to me babesia is about as virulent.
Sarah (CaliforniaLyme) good to see you and hear that your life is going so well...consider that you took 9 months of mepron...why doesn't malaria require the same?
One must ask why these pathogens are so difficult to eradicate, more so than tuberculosis or malaria, two big killers worldwide.
Once bioweaponized for greater virulence--easier adhesion, easier cell penetration, or splice in viral fragments, or WHO KNOWS what they did...and through carelessness the stuff gets out (there is such an obvious record of accidents at all biowarfare facilities, whether Ken Alibek's work in Moscow where the anthrax got all through the lab, or the recent incident with Klempner's lab and tularemia) that one doesn't have to have much imagination to realize that the ticks got out. Especially if at Plum Island for instance, they were in outdoor colonies and there was so much wildlife on the island. But even without that, without stringent safety measures which seem disregarded at most labs, the stuff can get out. Nature is very inventive, even when tampered with to be more virulent, microbes will figure out a way to find a host.
Then, bacteria exchange genes. So you get contamination of the naturally occuring pathogens. THen you add in as I've said before, global warming, our exodus into the suburbn and then exurban woods, and our unwillinngess to kill bambi while making extinct all bambi's alpha predators (we used to have 500,000 deer in this country now we have 25 million). So you have conditions for an epidemic, and multiple tickbites, unbeknownst to the human host, with multiple pathogens each time. And there is your recipe for chronic debilitating illness.
One of my suspicions centers more on the vaccine. We know Osp-C is expressed in the human not Osp-A (temperature related). Four years ago or more, early in my lyme infection, I spoke to the makers of an Osp-C vaccine who said it had essentially been squelched by the powers that be who wanted the Osp-A (Steere's). The Osp-A either reactivated latent disease or cause dautoimmune disease who knows, but it was pulled from the marekt. But why not use an Osp-C? It might even help those already infected by alerting the immune system (sort of like cancer vaccines). No Osp-C vaccine was ever made, at least not yet.
What's that about? I'd rather focus on THAT story. Especially now when pharmas are under attack for good reason.
Usually the answer in all this is money and power. Why did they use cheaper monkeys to make polio vaccine--kidneys contaminated with sv-40? Because it was cheaper! Even tho they had warnings at the time about the risk.
And for anyone who has immersed themselves in the military-industrial complex they slowly get "infected" with a worldview that necessarily lacks compassion and sees all humans as pawns in a larger "heroic" battle to "protect" interests at home...etc etc...when you read Lab257, whatever its accuracies and inaccuracies, one strong impression you come away with is those who run this kind of research are more than complacent, they are playing God, and a nasty God at that. They like the power to unleash forces stronger than nature herself made and they not only don't care if ordinary folk are harmed, they even enjoy it. Sounds sick but you can't work in certain fields and stay a heart-centered humanistic person. Consider all the gulf war vets sick from the experimental anthrax vaccine and depleted uranium. The government responsible for that DOES NOT CARE. President Bush will stop his vacation for a brain-dead lady on life support for 15 years, basically to please his right wing constituency, while sending healthy young men to their deaths for dubious oil interests. (Maybe we will get more democracy in the middle east and thats good but thats not why we did it). He will say the Pope was morally clear, when the Pope himself refused the feeding tube that Bush wanted to keep Terry Schiavo on. This may sound like I'm wandering far afield but the point is, the human life doesn't matter--power does, and retaining power.
All of which adds up to once again, my saying that finding a cure for those who have to take antibiotics for years, is a better idea. Even Sarah (CaliforniaLyme) who has regaiend most of her life--which is amazing--had to go through a couple years of drug hell and is still on antibiotics.
There has got to be a better solution.
People are on antibiotics for tuberculosis for years sometimes- AND people DO stay on treatment for malaria for years sometimes too!! That is where tonic water came from, with quinnine in it, because people found drinking a little daily tonic kept them from relapsing!!! I lived in India when I was little and know quite a bit about malaria because I have had it!
What is interesting is that malaria can have a tissue stage which most people don't know!!
Anywayz, lots of diseases require long-term treatment or treatment for the rest of ones life! My husband- Ed, bless him, he is a sweetie- is diabetic and he will have to take insulin every day the rest of his life!
I want to thank Paisley for her post, which I think cuts to the core of what all this means to us as patients.
And Maddog gets big points for saying much more concisely what I meant about high-tech sophistication married to bureaucratic incompetence.
Oxygenbabe demonstrates what had seemed obvious to me, that when we talk about Plum Island it isn't that OR global warming, expanding deer populations, etc, they aren't competing explanations.
This disease exacts a tragic price from many of us here, who are among the sickest of the sick. Very often in history those who are afflicted see things that others do not, act when others lack the determination to do so, and bring our common life back in contact with realities it can no longer afford to ignore.
It's a more subtle and voluntary business than the canary in the coal mine, but there is a crude analogy there.
This type of discussion is not how I spend all my time. I have reason to doubt how many more periods of lucidity my life has left in it. I spend some of those hours trying to attend to my soul, and give thanks to the souls that have touched mine in important ways. I spend some of them writing poems or daydreaming. I reserve a portion for trying to understand what this wretched epidemic can tell me about the world I live in and what it will take to assure its habitability for my younger friends and family.
I can't walk unassisted, or drive, or safely engage in much more exercise than controlled breathing and (very) gentle stretching. On a good day, those limits apply. So I have time. And for some of that time, I have a mind that can still make out patterns of meaning and respond to them.
I introduce this personal note because everyone who takes the Plum Island connection seriously has been tarred with a certain brush, painted as some kind of singularly obsessed, paranoid, hysterical freak.
I am a freak, alright, but the other adjectives do not apply, to me or any of the other thoughtful commenters in this thread.
quote:
Originally posted by MADDOG:
Hi,I actually know a person who 15 years ago was given secret papers explaining the plum island accidient.He was thretoned by a man in army fatigues and got rid of the papers,in the basement of Mayo clinic.
It was simply an accident lyme got loose, the ticks were droped from an airplane onto plumb island for an expirenment and got carried away by sea birds before they sprayed the island.
Simply done by people educated beyond their intellegence. MADDOG
see it's more complicated than just saying "look at this stretch of 16S RNA, this is Bb"
unless someone was miraculously able to get a total DNA sequence of the organism including telomeric DNA, you can't place much credence in these reports.
quote:
Originally posted by CaliforniaLyme:
ALigondo, an LLMD referenced that in a lecture who had read the full paper and said they had shown it. He is a good one and so I have always trusted that assertion. Maybe I am wrong to do so. But they also found Bb in ticks in ancient amber so it has been around for a long long long time!People are on antibiotics for tuberculosis for years sometimes- AND people DO stay on treatment for malaria for years sometimes too!! That is where tonic water came from, with quinnine in it, because people found drinking a little daily tonic kept them from relapsing!!! I lived in India when I was little and know quite a bit about malaria because I have had it!
What is interesting is that malaria can have a tissue stage which most people don't know!!Anywayz, lots of diseases require long-term treatment or treatment for the rest of ones life! My husband- Ed, bless him, he is a sweetie- is diabetic and he will have to take insulin every day the rest of his life!
Thanks for the kudos. Sad that I don't even remember what I said. I'll have to back track.
I wanted to share an interersting story. It's kind of weird, but I don't believe in coicidences anymore.
My children and I were coming back from a drs. appt. I didn't want to make dinner and stopped by Dairy Queen. Not the finest dining. I had a lot of other options at that intersection and still can't figure out why I stopped there for dinner.
At one point I decided to get a sundae. I asked the girl at the register what the purple band (silicone wrist band) stood for. She said REMEMBER. She hesistated, but then she said her sister had just died. I said I was sorry for her loss.
Then I asked her what the black one stood for. She said that one said CHANGE THE WORLD. I said, "that's cool" and walked away. Then she yelled to us, hey what are the green ones for. I said, Lyme Disease. Her jaw dropped and she couldn't speak.
She finally shared that her sister had died because of lyme disease. Then my jaw dropped and I couldn't speak. She had taken her life. She was in the army - the family thinks that she got it on the army base, but basically wasn't doing anything to help her get better.
She had been travelling the country trying to get answers, until she couldn't take it anymore.
I said that she paid a heavy price for this disease, asked for her name and told her that if I ever got my book done, I would dedicate it to her memory. Then my son said, "do you want my green bracelet?" She couldn't speak to us any longer because she couldn't stop crying.
Bizarre
If anyone else has information as sensitive as that, please hang on to it, don't share it in an open forum. I believe there is enough out there just in the public domain for us to make our case, no one should put themselves at risk.
In England there are rumours that a PhD student who was investigating the public health risk of Lyme, and died suddenly of a heart attack at age 27, did not die a natural death.
I am not saying this to sow fear, I just want people to be careful what they say in public.
Lisa
quote:
Originally posted by MADDOG:
Hi,I actually know a person who 15 years ago was given secret papers explaining the plum island accidient.He was thretoned by a man in army fatigues and got rid of the papers,in the basement of Mayo clinic.
It was simply an accident lyme got loose, the ticks were droped from an airplane onto plumb island for an expirenment and got carried away by sea birds before they sprayed the island.
Simply done by people educated beyond their intellegence. MADDOG
[This message has been edited by burnbitter (edited 19 April 2005).]
In my opinion, conspiracy and cover-up should be a given at this point. The more difficult question is what is their motivation. Is it a cover-up of an accident or experiment that escaped their control? If so, one would think they would do everything they could to prevent or at least limit new chronic cases by aggressively advocating proper early diagnosis and treatment. In this way, they would be limiting further spread of the disease. Instead they continue to be a deliberate obstacle to proper diagnosis and treatment. Could it be that these co-conspirators want the disease to spread? Sure looks like it. Why? My best guess is that these people are all part of a conspiracy to weaken the US population over time. The Nazis experimented with tick borne diseases for this reason. They wanted to take over the world and felt this was an effective way to weaken some of their enemies from within.
In the same way, we could be dealing with another totalitarian regime which has the U.S. in their long term sights. Perhaps Russia or China or both. I often hear Lyme folks discussing conspiracy in terms of our own government doing this to its own citizens. Perhaps but much more likely IMO is that the communists have infiltrated us long ago and have people in powerful places where they can control things, ie the CDC & NIH & state health departments along with many other places. They need to be in positions of authority so they can control the agenda. Many innocent, elected officials are being sold a bill of goods and help perpetuate the plan without realizing they are part of a conspiracy. We are a wide open country and the communists espionage tactics are legendary so IMO it is unrealistic to think they haven't infiltrated our government.
I am sure many will disagree and consider this craziness or silliness but I think it ties up many of the conflicting questions that we see throughout this Lyme puzzle. Most of us who think in terms of a conspiracy don't want to believe it, but the evidence is there if you look.
You see, in those days, there was no need to do this covertly, as the US had not yet sigend any international treaties outlawing it, as happened in 1972.
It's not accurate to say that Allen Steere did not do a 180 deg. turn in the 1980's. If you examine the record, you can see that **from the very beginning** his conduct was extremely suspicious. Despite the fact that he clearly was aware of the many decades of European literature on the subject, as well as more recent news regarding the efficacy of penicillin, he continued to insist that Lyme was probably viral, thus blocking treatment for all.
It's worth remembering that the rheumatologist whom Polly Murray was originally scheduled to see when she first raised the alarm with the Connecticut health department was pulled at the last minute by Dr Snydman, also of the Epidemic Intelligence Service, who ensured she would see Steere instead.
Steere was thus given the mantle for "discovering" Lyme disease, and the rest is tragic history.
The Epidemic Intelligence Service (EIS) is a programme of the CDC. It is not a minor programme. The elite ID personnel who graduate from the EIS are then encouraged to take up positions in strategically important parts of the health infrastructure all over the country. Thus they become chief epidemiologists, get on the editorial boards of top medical journals, gain important positions in the mass media (the rabidly anti-Lymie Altman of the NY Times is a good example)etc..
As an elite unit of basically biowarfare-trained specialists, they wield huge power in the political structure. If they feel a the work of a particular doctor or scientist is getting in the way of military goals, they can ensure that person is either intimidated into silence, has his license to practise removed/reputation trashed, or worse.
Unless of course, large numbers of patients rally to protect the individual concerned (eg Dr Burrascano).
They operate as a team and can ensure that, if deemed necessary for national "security", information on any disease can be spun in a co-ordinated manner, and action taken to silence those who interfere with those "security" goals.
Remember, the goals and priorities of a military doc may be very different from a civilian doc following the Hippocratic oath.
Not only Steere and Snydman, but CDC Lyme officials (as well as CDC directors) and in general, a hugely disproportionate number of the Steere camp just "happen" to be EIS members or known biowarfare experts.
That the poster Ticktox has recognised all this is good. It is after all, all documented fact in the public domain. However, Ticktox then parts company with established evidence by wandering off into a ridiculous and bizarre theory about communists controlling America and trying to weaken its population with chronic infectious diseases.
Where is your evidence for this nonsense, (other than possibly among the pages of Mein Kampf?) Where is the slightest shred of evidence that the US government and military are controlled by "communists"?
A person could reasonably argue that Lyme was developed as a bioweapon by the Soviet Union, and that the outbreak in Connecticut in the 70's was a deliberate release by them . But we are now in 2005, 14 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall. There is no more Soviet Union, and Russia (in case you had not noticed) is no longer a Communist country.
It does no service to anyone when you bring these bizarre fantasies into a field where those of us who genuinely want to expose the Lyme cover-up for what it is, based on solid evidence painstakingly gathered, already face scoen and disbelief on the basis that we are plugging baseless "conpiracy theories".
It will not be hard for us to prove that the Lyme cover-up is a deliberate cover-up by the US and other NATO governments, via the medium of the Steere camp, assisted by huge input from those industries with a financial stake in the matter (insurance, vaccine/biotech etc).
There is no need to then go on to say that because we have evidence of that, this then indicates that western governments are controlled by communists, Jews, Blacks, gays, or greem lizards from outer space. It doesn't, no more than the fact that the sky is blue "proves" that the moon is made of cheese.
If you want to genuinely advance the expose, and hopefully bring down this coverup so that patients can finally get proper recognition and treatment of Lyme disease, please take care that you present credible evidence for your statements, and at least, very high quality circumstantial evidence to support your theories.
Bizarre neo-McCarthyite musings about Communists controlling America are not evidence, and considering the Soviet bloc is all but disappeared for over a decade - just ridiculous.
Lisa
quote:
Originally posted by ticktox:
But how do you explain Steere doing a 180. In the early 80's he sounded just like our LLMDs. He didn't get stupid all of a sudden. Maybe a gun to the head or some threat to his family. Who knows. .........In the same way, we could be dealing with another totalitarian regime which has the U.S. in their long term sights. Perhaps Russia or China or both. I often hear Lyme folks discussing conspiracy in terms of our own government doing this to its own citizens. Perhaps but much more likely IMO is that the communists have infiltrated us long ago and have people in powerful places where they can control things, ie the CDC & NIH & state health departments along with many other places. They need to be in positions of authority so they can control the agenda. Many innocent, elected officials are being sold a bill of goods and help perpetuate the plan without realizing they are part of a conspiracy. We are a wide open country and the communists espionage tactics are legendary so IMO it is unrealistic to think they haven't infiltrated our government.I am sure many will disagree and consider this craziness or silliness but I think it ties up many of the conflicting questions that we see throughout this Lyme puzzle. Most of us who think in terms of a conspiracy don't want to believe it, but the evidence is there if you look.
I do believe "they"...whoever they actually are...are trying to disable our country. Many founding fathers of our country and patriots have always warned us that if our government was ever to be taken over that it would be from within and that we need to be vigilant, ask questions and keep our government in line. It is supposed to be government for the people and by the people...not in control of the people.
I still don't know what it is you want to do. How/where do you want to gather evidence? Maybe lymenet isn't the best place for this discussion (tho it drew me temporarily back to lymenet). Meanwhile people are suffering so something has to be done. I met a lady the other day who claims she has ALS but 200 hyperbaric treatments greatly improved her. She also mentioned her daughter has chronic lyme. So I looked at her and said, you don't have ALS< hyperbaric doesn't improve ALS, but it does improve lyme. And lyme is sometimes misdiagnosed as ALS. So you live on the east coast and your daughter has chronic lyme, well guess what, so do you.
But she gave me a kindly smile and didn't take it in.
LLMD News Flash: UV blocking Tinfoil prescribed for light sensitive Lyme patients.
In the Local News: Noob eats Tinfoil as dietary supplement as precaution.
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Who has the most to gain today? Pharmaceutical Companies.
Medical Professionals.
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The fact that the tick has been used for vector transmission is a documented fact during wartime, but this does not explain what we all know is true while seeking treatment today..............
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I would really like to know what the physicians are discussing about Lyme in their private forums. Perhaps someone could ask a LLMD about this? Certainly they would know.
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quote:
Originally posted by daystar1952:
....However I do believe that there is a so called communist influence. If one looks at the planks of the communist manifesto you will see much of it taking place right here, right now.
...
I haven't read the communist manifesto, but I do have a basic idea that it is about having a revolution, arming a Red Army, and overthrowing capitalism. No, I do not see that that is happening here in the west at all.
On the contrary, capitalism seems to be very much alive and well to me.
Especially so in Lyme medicine, where length of treatment is being determined by the profit needs of insurance companies, and the greed of Glaxo SmithKline to make a huge killing on a Lyme vaccine caused thousands of serious adverse events and contributed to the catastrophic Dressler-Steere criteria being imposed on us.
That was not caused by "communists", but by multi-national companies - American, British etc. Last time I looked, multi-national companies were not very much into having a red revolution and overthrowing capitalism. Let's be real here.
You talk about "they - whoever they may be". That's ridiculous. If we are going to make accusations, we have to say who "they" are.
I have said for well over a year who I think "they" are - the Steere camp, with the full backing of our governments, our military and the special support of certain multi-nationals most concerned (insurance, vaccine manufacturers etc.) But I have provided evidence for what I've said.
You, on the other hand are raising crazy theories about Communists controlling America, and saying this explains the Steere camp fraud. You provide no evidence for this, other than that Gorbachev visited the US a lot (of course he did, because he was backed by the US as the man who would bring perestroika).
With the Steere camp swine working 24/7 to characterise Lyme patients in general and Lyme **activists** in particular as "crazy", the type of thing you are saying is going to hand them what they want on a plate.
As for patriots - I'm sorry. You don't understand patriotism very well. The EIS men who mess around with virulence factors and engineer new and more horrific ways of wiping out millions of men, women and children (or incapacitating them), are extremely patriotic.
They do the horrific work they do IN THE NAME OF PATRIOTISM , in the name of their country (and that applies to any army of any country, engaged in biowarfare or other WMD). They do it in the name of protecting American/British/Swedish etc families.
Everyone has the right to defend their family. No one has the right to wipe out millions of other families, and call that defense.
For many of the Steere camp, particularly those in elite units like the EIS, patriotism is far more important than money, in motivating them to do what they do. But their concept of patriotism comes out of a mind-set that says "we must have the most powerful, horrific weapons, as the only good defense is offense. NOTHING must get in the way of that goal."
So if five million people, citizens of their own country, come down with a terrible disabling disease, and to recognise them as having it, and treat them, interferes with previously determined military goals, or risks exposing militarily sensitive issues, they would certainly choose to throw the five million down the toilet, rather than disturb the patriotic goals.
And indeed if five million of their own countrymen came down with an instantly fatal disease, but treating them and saving their lives risked compromising a goal, (for example, if revealing an antimicrobial that could cure would also destroy any prospect of the military ever deploying that agent), then they might well choose to leave the five million to die.
It's called "collateral damage".
They would do it, and in their minds it would be patriotic, because it would be defending the other hundreds of millions still alive.
That's pragmatism. That's how military minds work. But if you - or your children - happen to be one of the five million...God help you.
Lisa
Where we part company is regarding who the EIS is and where their loyalties lie. I am always amazed at how quickly people attempt to discredit others through name-calling. Attempting to discredit my post, by calling me a neo-McCarthyite and ridiculous hardly seems productive. We share some common thoughts and part company on others. Don't be so quick to discount another opinion. It doesn't mean you have to agree with it.
Daystar is right, you should read the Communist Manifesto. Personally I think it is naive to think a country as free and open as the U.S. is not subject to infiltration. Surely the spy cases of recent years proves that and it is likely the tip of the ice berg. As for communism being dead or Russia no longer a threat. There are many more knowledgeable than me who will tell you that assumption is wrong. Russia supposedly is conducting more espionage in this country today than at the height of the Cold War and that's just counting what we know about. A lot has been written about Putin moving his country rapidly back in the direction of communism. Russia has continued to pour a large percentage of its capital into its military, particularly weapons specifically designed to exploit our weaknesses. Much of the nuclear disarmament of the post Cold War era has been unilateral on our part. Russia and China are doing a lot of partnering up militarily.
I think people need to wake up and pay attention. The way the Soviet Union and the Berlin Wall self destructed always seemed artificial to me. No revolution, no real fight from the hard liners who had so much to lose, no bloodshed. It was like a made for tv movie that only the movie-loving Americans would buy, hook, line and sinker.
The U.S. is fast approaching second rate status both economically and militarily. China nearing a par with us and their allies are much stronger militarily than are ours. This isn't happening by mistake. I believe the leaders of the Soviet Union realized in the mid-eighties that they did not have the capital to keep up with us in the arms race, particularly technologically. I think they chose a bold and cunning alternative. They decided to take a big step back and allow the Soviet empire to break apart, convincing us that we won and that the U.S. is the only remaining super power. They knew the naive Americans would buy it and over time, weaken their defenses while the communist coalition strengthened theirs, albeit out of the spotlight. It is happening before our very eyes. Meanwhile, the American population can be weakened from within via tick-borne diseases. By the way, has anyone else noticed the disproportionate number of top students with chronic, neurological Lyme. Don't know why or how but so many of the kids with chronic Lyme that I know of were top, top students. Don't know how that could be but we are losing our future best and brightest, it seems.
I am sure to many of you this is too extreme to accept. But I promise you I am not a crazy person. Bone up on your history and start connecting some dots. I am afraid this country is very rapidly approaching a point of no return because most people take our freedoms for granted. Those that think capitalism is bad and our military is evil should consider what life under the alternative might be like.
Call me a McCarthyite if you wish. Actually many of so-called lunatic rantings have since been proven true. One of the biggest tricks in the communist book is to neutralize your enemy by discrediting him.
Also, everyone please note that I am NOT advocating that anyone discuss anthing that's not already out in the public domain re the Steere camp and the military, whether on LymeNet or anywhere else.
I think it could well be dangerous. I am sure there will come a time when our basic arguments will have become known and publicised, to the extent that it will be much safer for anyone who has such revelations to share them. I believe things are already moving in that direction, because so much has leaked out recently(apart from Klempner's tularemia, I mean!)
But I don't think we are there yet, so people do need to think carefully about what they share on the internet, if it's material that's not already out in the public domain.
But as I always say, there's a hell of a lot out there in the public domain already.
Lisa
quote:
Originally posted by oxygenbabe:
That was a good post, Lisa.
THe communist idea is pretty funny.
A key point you make is the goals of the military industrial complex are different than that of civilian life.I still don't know what it is you want to do. How/where do you want to gather evidence? Maybe lymenet isn't the best place for this discussion (tho it drew me temporarily back to lymenet). Meanwhile people are suffering so something has to be done. .......
quote:
Originally posted by ticktox:
Call me a McCarthyite if you wish. Actually many of so-called lunatic rantings have since been proven true. One of the biggest tricks in the communist book is to neutralize your enemy by discrediting him.
I suppose that is meant to imply that I am a secret KGB agent too?
I don't need to discredit you, because if you honestly believe that the Steere camp, the DoD, and the US Government are all secret agents of Putin, then you are discrediting yourself very effectively without any help from me or anyone else.
You complain about me calling you a McCarthyite. I thought, by your tone, you would see the word "McCarthyite" as a compliment, not an insult.
Who was McCarthy, and what were the McCarthyites? They were the ones who whipped the US into a hysterical state in the fifties, telling the US public there was a "Red-under-every-bed", and anyone standing up for civil rights, labor rights, peace etc was considered a dangerous KGB agent to be eliminated.
You say that you and I agree about the scope and importance of the EIS. What is the EIS, and what is its background?
Go look it up on the CDC website. They proudly tell their own story. It was founded in the McCarthyite era, precisely in order to fight the "Red peril" - with weapons of mass destruction that would have wiped out not only authoritarian regimes of the eastern bloc, but also the millions and millions of men, women and children - real human beings - who lived there.
At that time, offensive biological and chemical warfare was the legal, official policy of the US.
It was in the sixties and seventies, when the power of the McCarthyites waned, that the US finally agreed not to make bioweapons. At least in words.
I don't buy the idea that Allen Steere, Alan Barbour, Ed McSweegan, Mark Klempner etc are hypnotised automatons working for Putin. Or consciously working for Putin. I find it ridiculous.
They are military "extremophiles" - biowarriors, soldiers who are prepared to work in areas that not every soldier would be prepared to touch. But in their way of thinking - they are doing it for the United States of America - and many of them will justify it exactly with belief system like yours ie, that the US is under imminent threat of attack by Russia and therefore needs ever-more horrific weapons of mass destruction and mass incapacitation at the ready.
Ken Alibek , the former Soviet biowar chief who defected to the US, explained that he did the atrocious job he did, because he and his countrymen were told (and believed) that the US intended to do it to them first.
The US public in the McCarthyite era -the era that spawned the EIS - accepted that their military should develop biological WMD (starting with people like the EIS), precisely because they were being told that the soviets intended to develop some against them - the mirror image of Alibek's situation.
Ordinary people from all over the world have to break this vicious cycle of war and hatred, and get out of this mentality that "the other guy is out to get us". That is the mentality that has always, always, been used to justify the making and deployment of WMD, and that is why we have a Steere camp neck-deep in bioweapons that sees us and our hundreds of thousand of wrecked lives as just so much annoying, whining, collateral damage.
Lisa
In case anyone has been napping for the last 30 years, we are for better or worse a world in which state capitalism no longer has a rival. I don't know one serious economist or political scientist on the planet who denies that.
I have nothing against people who prefer to hide from such realities, but I do think we have to draw the line somewhere when it comes to bold and utterly counterfactual declarations.
If we're going to invoke invisible communists, we might as well invoke little (Lyme) green men.
Plum Island has an official, publically acknowledged existence that certifies it's potential relevance to the Lyme epidemic.
Plum Island is not legend passed along on websites populated by people involved in constructing alternative realities, where the cold war is still hot, the commies are still coming, and McCarthy was right all along.
I would hope we could keep the discussion attached by some sort of tether to the world in which we live. I know none of us gets out much anymore, but honestly, folks...
As a graduate of the Politics program at the University of California at Santa Cruz, I learned early on that many people of a certain Ayn Randian perspective cannot distinguish between communism and totalitarianism. They honestly think that the Nazis, for example, were inspired by Karl Marx, because they called themselves "National Socialists".
These people are walled off from reality by their own hardened ideological assumptions.
The impulse towards total domination has never needed communism as an excuse, and is no less dangerous to the world since the fall of the Soviet Union than before.
To anyone unclear on the concept, I recommend reading the descriptions of Fascism published by the US military during World War II.
They are quite sophisticated and most political scientist find them more or less accurate summaries of how the dream of total domination becomes a waking nightmare, when concentrated economic power and centralized state authority combine.
Communism was always kind of a backwards approach to achieving that combination - it is now little more than a historical anomaly.
Meanwhile, while well-meaning citizens debate which is worse, Big Government or Big Business, the two continue to grow in tandem, feeding off each other's excesses while maintaining a polite charade of mutual antagonism. If you aren't aware of that, you may well be living on 'planet CDC' or some other remote, alien world.
there have been so many posts lately that i dont even know where to begin explaining things to people, so unfortunetly i have not been posting to help shed light on the issue. there are so many posts to read i have just felt overwhelmed. i know there are those on the forum who are doing a very good job helping show others the truth.
many however have formed opinons even though they may not know what mycoplasma is, or that it was manufacuted and worked on at plub island accross from lyme where the outbreak started. they most likely have never been tested for mycoplasma even though all of the serious LLMDs know that mycoplasma is very serious and most likely the cause for many cases of chronic degenerative diseases. i have been sick for seven years and have been to many doctors. the doctors i have seen most recently have all been heavy weight LLMDs. one is a co-found of ilads. they dont come out and tell anyone about any of this, but after i figured it out myself, i got varying levels of agreement and co-operation. the very least i got was complete agreement but nothing else, no volunteering information. although i did get my mycoplasa test for 13 strains done here. the nurse would also come by a lot to change my dressing for the iv and he was a nice guy who knew about this as well. at one point he started doing mycoplasma pannels on the initial lyme and other blood tests done for new patients. what he found was that the majority of the patients were coming back with one or multiple strains of mycoplasma. i think after a bit the doctor told him to stop.
if you look at the strains of mycoplasma they call the main ones gulf war 1, and gulf war 2 on the blood test. they are named this because mycoplasma is what is a main factor in gulf war illness, which is very very very similar to lyme. once everyone actually gets themselves tested and realizes that these certain mycoplasma species only have one history that you will ever find, and thats bio warfare.
the good thing is that there have been so many posts and that this issue is coming out into the open. i remember not so long a go, maybe a year or two when the mods and other people would not even want this topic in anything other than off topic. i think they even knew the truth but said that it was too much for some to deal with.
there is a change happening, more and more people are talking about this. and more and more are waking up to the truth or at least part of the truth. we all know the insanity that exists with doctors and lyme. we can all see something is not right in this area. the symptoms are all over this forum in the form of stories, post the craziest thing a doctor has told you, polls, ect.
actually the reason i woke up is because of a public lyme hearing. the public health director was acting so ridiculously to try to fault a lyme doctor on his research and presentation. the doctor had a long list of names of other doctors who had published information on the same topic. the public official was trying to make it seem like the names were repeated on the list and that the list was actually very small, when in fact it was the opposite. the persistance of this guy was what really got me going. he kept going and going until he looked like a complete idiot. he made the guy just keep reading many many names of the list instead of letting him go on with the research. well this got me going. my own mother had learned from a lyme support group about plub island. they all agreed that it was a cover up. months went by where i could not believe it. until i saw this hearing and finally the whole thing was just far too warped. something was wrong, and i had to at least research this island which i knew nothing about, but had previously formed an opinion on.
everyone should know that mycoplasma is a co factor in aids with the visna virus. and the goverment has patented it. the patent is even availible on a .gov goverment website: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/
netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5,242,820.WKU.&OS=PN/5,242,820&RS=PN/5,242,820
the patent mentions chronic fatigue.
i have 5 strains of the mycoplasma. one reason its important to learn what mycoplamsa you have is because only certain antibiotics will work. in addition you can take supplements like selenium which block the mycoplasma growth. also when you begin to understand how they work and operate you can do more to make yourself healthy and resistant to them.
the more you know the more you can do to help yourself and those around you.
Honestly go read the book.
Unfortunately our government is quite capable.
Do you also think that 'communists' have infiltrated many over countries governments also?
I really, really think it is very very unlikely that this has anything whatsoever to do with infiltration by communists (and what communists do you refer to exactly? There are communists groups in not just old Russia (i.e. USSR). I think that is taking the conspiracy thing just a tad far, and unless there was some actual evidence for that, I think it is pretty ludicruous.
DLL
Nonetheless, if most people had thought like you in this country, we would never have fought the Nazis.
We would instead having welcomed them as allies in the fight against evil. Much as our current president seeks to 'spread freedom' by chumming it up with many of freedom's sworn enemies, including Putin, the Russian leader that dubya considers a personal friend. (Not surprising, given how alike they are in their respect for democratic institutions).
Good heavens, Ticktock, I do believe you've been bitten by the same bug that got Jeane Kirkpatrick, another bright, articulate woman whose world view could peel paint from the walls.
I remember Jeanne, because while she was assisting Ronnie in the White House, I was helping to keep the victims of his domestic policies from starving, working with a group of Maryknoll nuns at a food bank and shelter for homeless families.
My dear Maryknoll pals were close friends with a group of nuns that were raped and killed in El Salvador by US-backed, right-wing thugs.
When confronted with this fact, Jeannie K. told the press, "Well, you know, they weren't just nuns, they were Marxists." Yep. That's what Jeannie said. I won't tell you what the sisters said in reply.
Not that you probably care, but China is viewed as a state-captialist regime by just about everyone these days, including the Chinese and the World Trade Organization.
And speaking of Chinese, have you heard about the recent Harvard genetics experiment that used thousands of Chinese citizens as test subjects without their consent? Yep, yep, we're all victims of China here. You betcha. Roger That and Over and Out.
Aha! Now I understand why Camilla wore that stupid hat at the wedding. (She was hiding a copy of the communist manifesto underneath it.)
And when all the caviar and �10,000 a bottle wine is packed away, and the last maid has finished spreading toothpaste on Her Majesty's solid ivory toothbrush (a personal gift from an extinct elephant species), and retired to the servants' quarters for the night, the Queen whips out her copy of the communist manifesto from under the royal petticoat, hides under the hand-embroidered satin sheets with her diamond-studded flashlight and stays up all night, secretly plotting a Bolshevik uprising.
Lisa
quote:
Originally posted by dontlikeliver:
With all due respect, Ticktox, the anti-Lyme 'movement'/attitudes among the medical/government arenas are not exclusive to the United States.Do you also think that 'communists' have infiltrated many over countries governments also?
I really, really think it is very very unlikely that this has anything whatsoever to do with infiltration by communists (and what communists do you refer to exactly? There are communists groups in not just old Russia (i.e. USSR). I think that is taking the conspiracy thing just a tad far, and unless there was some actual evidence for that, I think it is pretty ludicruous.
DLL
A doctor here in the UK has just published an article suggesting Lyme as one of the causes of Gulf War illness.
I am aware that a virulent strain of mycoplasma was patented by a doctor called Lo, who is a US army pathologist.
I don't completely understand what you are saying. Are you saying that you believe mycoplasma is a co-infection that exacerbates/activates/re-activates borreliosis, or are you saying you believe that mycoplasma rather than borrelia is causing our symptoms?
Lisa
quote:
Originally posted by break the chains:
i posted this in general under mycoplamsa, but i would guess that most here dont really know too much about mycoplasma.there have been so many posts lately that i dont even know where to begin explaining things to people, so unfortunetly i have not been posting to help shed light on the issue. there are so many posts to read i have just felt overwhelmed. i know there are those on the forum who are doing a very good job helping show others the truth.
many however have formed opinons even though they may not know what mycoplasma is, or that it was manufacuted and worked on at plub island accross from lyme where the outbreak started. they most likely have never been tested for mycoplasma even though all of the serious LLMDs know that mycoplasma is very serious and most likely the cause for many cases of chronic degenerative diseases. i have been sick for seven years and have been to many doctors. the doctors i have seen most recently have all been heavy weight LLMDs. one is a co-found of ilads. they dont come out and tell anyone about any of this, but after i figured it out myself, i got varying levels of agreement and co-operation. the very least i got was complete agreement but nothing else, no volunteering information. although i did get my mycoplasa test for 13 strains done here. the nurse would also come by a lot to change my dressing for the iv and he was a nice guy who knew about this as well. at one point he started doing mycoplasma pannels on the initial lyme and other blood tests done for new patients. what he found was that the majority of the patients were coming back with one or multiple strains of mycoplasma. i think after a bit the doctor told him to stop.
if you look at the strains of mycoplasma they call the main ones gulf war 1, and gulf war 2 on the blood test. they are named this because mycoplasma is what is a main factor in gulf war illness, which is very very very similar to lyme. once everyone actually gets themselves tested and realizes that these certain mycoplasma species only have one history that you will ever find, and thats bio warfare.the good thing is that there have been so many posts and that this issue is coming out into the open. i remember not so long a go, maybe a year or two when the mods and other people would not even want this topic in anything other than off topic. i think they even knew the truth but said that it was too much for some to deal with.
there is a change happening, more and more people are talking about this. and more and more are waking up to the truth or at least part of the truth. we all know the insanity that exists with doctors and lyme. we can all see something is not right in this area. the symptoms are all over this forum in the form of stories, post the craziest thing a doctor has told you, polls, ect.
actually the reason i woke up is because of a public lyme hearing. the public health director was acting so ridiculously to try to fault a lyme doctor on his research and presentation. the doctor had a long list of names of other doctors who had published information on the same topic. the public official was trying to make it seem like the names were repeated on the list and that the list was actually very small, when in fact it was the opposite. the persistance of this guy was what really got me going. he kept going and going until he looked like a complete idiot. he made the guy just keep reading many many names of the list instead of letting him go on with the research. well this got me going. my own mother had learned from a lyme support group about plub island. they all agreed that it was a cover up. months went by where i could not believe it. until i saw this hearing and finally the whole thing was just far too warped. something was wrong, and i had to at least research this island which i knew nothing about, but had previously formed an opinion on.everyone should know that mycoplasma is a co factor in aids with the visna virus. and the goverment has patented it. the patent is even availible on a .gov goverment website: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/
netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5,242,820.WKU.&OS=PN/5,242,820&RS=PN/5,242,820
the patent mentions chronic fatigue.i have 5 strains of the mycoplasma. one reason its important to learn what mycoplamsa you have is because only certain antibiotics will work. in addition you can take supplements like selenium which block the mycoplasma growth. also when you begin to understand how they work and operate you can do more to make yourself healthy and resistant to them.
the more you know the more you can do to help yourself and those around you.
when people get into a serious chronic degenerative state however it is typically a well established mycoplasma infection. many many people have "lyme disease" with mycoplasmas and have been mis-diagnosed with one of the other chronic diseases that are so similar to lyme. actually all of these diseases are a label without a cause. really they are labels for where the mycoplasma has been able to get a foot hold in the body.
a few are chronic fatigue (i was told i had this and would have to deal with it), fibromyalgia, MS, ALS, gulfwar syndrome(new york times published GWS caused by vaccines), parkinsons, lou gehrigs, chrons, RA, alzheimers, and the list goes on. i hope i havnt missed any of the major ones.
i do believe that borrelia and other TBD's are very effcient at opening the door for the mycoplasmas. also if they are not erradicated they will do damage and establish themsevles. for mycoplasmas to work on their own you either need a good sized initial dose, or for some kind of trauma to take place. i have come to this realizeation party because i have been muscle tested by my LLMD from ilads (his idea and practice) and he found the lyme had been eliminated by the antibiotics, not the mycoplasma however.
mycoplasma is the cause of gulf war syndrome, not lyme. the veterans were given vaccines, some which gave personel terrible reactions and symptoms. on montel's ms special he told how he went blind after his vaccine and became very ill. this was the begining of his horrific battle with MS. i do not know if he has made the connection, but im pretty sure he wouldnt come out with it on tv if he had. the armed forces also told those who got that vaccine that should they develop the symptoms of MS they should contact the goverment so they could get a pension to take care of themsevles. mycoplasma is the cause of gulf war syndrome because they were doing a controled testing on a group of some of the fittest americans.
the very reason we have mycoplasma tests is because the father of a veteran who is a microbiologist had his daughter come home from the gulf in a devistated condition. he set out to find out why, found the mycoplasmas, and develeoped a pcr test. this man is garth nickelson. garth and a few others like him have provided a good ammount of information on mycoplasmas but have not made the lyme connection. this is very unfortunate because it fragments the information unless you know what is really happening. it seems garth nickelson has finally made the connection and is speaking on mycoplasmas at a conference in connecticut next month about the co-infections of "lyme". i am very glad important people like him are realizeing that lyme is the same thing. two doctors i have seen are also speaking here, including the one i have been mentioning so much here.
if you look at all the symptoms for these different diseases typically they are all so similar that its clear they all have a common cause.
BTW Bruce, if I can put this politely, you seem to be a little...hmmmm..eccentric these days. Is something up with you?
When I first read your posts I really liked them, not just the funny stuff but also the serious stuff. And you did seem to grasp that the Steere camp were guilty of deliberate fraud (as you do in this post).
But I have noticed that lately you have started to become kinda friendly with weisman (Chief Skunk of Sci Med). What's going on? Surely you know he is a Steere camp provocateur?
If you don't, I suggest you do a search for his name + ILADS or "weisman" + "burrascano" or even "weisman" + "LymeNet" and see the kind of crap that comes up. He is forever expressing his hatred for ILADS and making fun of our good doctors, as well as showing his hatred of all Lymeland.
It is true he does pretend to be a Lymie at times, and says things apparently against the Steere camp, especially when new people pop into the sci-med group.
But if you read closely, there is always a a sub-text, a punchline at the end. It's things like "well, we all know the testing sucks, but ........" or "I don't like Steere, but...." and what follows the "but" comes straight out of a bull's butt, basically.
The themes are always the same, ie "Lymies lose credibility if they denounce the Steere camp, and anyway they are not guilty of fraud theyr're just mistaken, etc etc...".and then he will launch into an attack on LLMDs, accusing them of malpractice, incompetence, embezzlement, you-name-it. He has been incredibly vicious and sadistic in his dealings with Lymies, above all with those who threaten the Steere camp in any way.
I thought you were an intelligent guy, and could see through that stuff?
Sorry to crab. But you're not the first Lymie to get drawn into his snake-pit. He hypnotised that fool Martijn, and manipulated a mentally ill woman with Lyme into going around hurling abuse at LLMDs, and repeating everything he said.
I'm not suggesting you are going to start bad-mouthing ILADS and calling LymeNet "LymeNut" just because he does. I just don't understand why you are giving him the time of day?
I truly hope you're not thinking of smoking the genetically-modified peace pipe with weisman?
Lisa
quote:
Originally posted by Aligondo Bruce:
One question I have never seen adequately answered is why allen steere served in the EIS and CDC for two years as an epidimilogist - and THEN did his fellowship at yale in rheumatology. Does anyone have an answer for this? It seems to me that someone who worked in the EIS and epidemiology would be interested in an ID fellowship as opposed to rheumatology. Although of course epidemiology involves the study of all diseases and their occurences and frequencies, it's a somewhat odd combination, and odd again in terms of sequence of events.
Lisa
nancyatlymesupportcom
Flash Member
Posts: 9
From: Shelton CT USA
Registered: Dec 2003
posted 30 March 2005 13:28
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First Vice President, International Lyme
And Associated Diseases Society
This Conference was organized to educate and inform the public about Lyme disease and other tick borne illnesses. We believe Lyme disease and other tick borne illnesses are the State of Connecticut's greatest health threat. This concern combined with unreliable blood tests, means that large numbers of patients are being routinely misdiagnosed as having other illnesses such as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia. Moreover, Lyme disease can mimic numerous other maladies. It has been know to present as Multiple Sclerosis, ALS and Parkinson's disease. Additionally, those diagnosed with Lupus, Rheumatoid Arthritis, Depression and Attention Deficit Disorder also should consider the possibility they may have Lyme disease. Leading researchers are finding strong evidence that the Lyme bacteria (Borrelia burgdorferi) is responsible for a significant amount of mental illness, including those disorders that present as Schizophrenia, Bipolar Disorder and OCD. New evidence is even pointing to a possible link between Lyme disease and Autism.
Where: Farmington/Unionville Senior Community Center
321 New Britain Avenue, Unionville, CT
When: Saturday, May 7, 2005
Time: Doors open at 8:00 a.m., Conference starts at 9:00 a.m.
Donation: $25 before 5/3/05, $30 at the door - Includes, coffee, donuts, lunch and beverages - Seating Limited - Reservations Required - RSVP mail in Reservation Coupon below to guarantee seat. Questions can be directed by email to modelt1918 -AT- sbcglobal.net or jettyhound -AT- juno.com or call 860-658-9938(Randy) or 860-673-8759(Chris)
Book Signing Authors in Attendance (free admission)
Sue Vogan
NCO - No Compassion Observed Karen Vanderhoff-Forschner
Everything You Need to Know About Lyme Disease
And Other Tick-Borne Disorders
Polly Murray Denise V. Lang
The Widening Circle, A Lyme disease pioneer tells her story Coping with Lyme Disease
Reservation Coupon
Name__________________________________Tele#__________________________Number of People Attending______
Make checks payable to The Greater Hartford Lyme Disease Support and Action Group (GHLDSA) and mail to: The Greater Hartford Lyme Disease Support and Action Group, c/o Randy Sykes, 5 Lostbrook Road, West Simsbury, CT 06092, no later than May 3, 2005. Please call prior to sending to make sure space is available 860-658-9938
Dr. Lesley Ann Fein
Holds both an MD (1977-Witwaterstand Medical School South Africa) and an MPH (1979-Columbia University, NY). Additionally, she is Board Certified in Internal Medicine (1984) and completed her Fellowship in Rheumatology at New York University (1986). She has been in practice since 1986 and has taught Epidemiology to medical and public health students at Columbia University and Mt. Sinai Hospital, NY. She has also taught General Medicine and Rheumatology at Mt. Sinai and NYU. Dr. Fein has served on several committees, inclusive of S296 under Senator Bennet (Majority Leader of NJ Senate) regarding Lyme disease, the National Health Legislation Task Force, an Advisor to the Lyme Disease Foundation and on the Republican Congressional Committee Advisory Board. She is both an experienced researcher, through grants from Hoechst labs as well as Pfizer pharmaceuticals, and a seasoned public speaker. Since 1993 she has had more than 14 public speaking roles at major medical convocations and conferences, inclusive of 7 conferences specifically related to Lyme disease and other tick borne disorders. Additionally, she has authored, or co-authored, several journal articles and government reports on Lyme disease and other tick borne illnesses since 1997, including those found in the Journal of Spirochetal and Tick Borne Diseases and the Journal of Clinical Microbiology.
Dr. Richard Howowitz
Board Certified, Internal Medicine, Former Assistant Director of Medicine, Vasser Brother's Hospital. Dr. Horowitz is a practicing physician in Hyde Park, NY who specializes in diagnosis and treatment of complicated Lyme disease and other tick-borne illnesses. He is an internist with 20 year of experience in treating over 8,000 cases of persistent (late) Lyme disease. His is author to numerous scientific articles along with featured speaker in many conferences and workshops over the years on Lyme disease. He is currently the First Vice President, International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society, Inc. (ILADS).
Dr. Jo Anne Whitaker
Has had extensive residence and fellowship programs in pediatrics, hematology, oncology, nutrition and psychiatry. She taught in seven different medical schools and retired as a full professor of pediatrics. She spent nine years in Southeast Asia, starting a new medical school and nutritional laboratory in Thailand and post-graduate training program in Vietnam during the war. After returning form Vietnam, she was director of the Florida Mental Health Center in Tampa. She helped start and develop the first hospice in Florida and initiated the Little Kids Program for Abused Children at the Chi Chi Rodriguez Children's Program.
Directions
Directions from 84 East or West - take exit 39 (which is Farmington Rt.4 exit). At end of exit continue straight through the light and continue on Rt. 4 West for approx. 4.9 miles to the intersection of Rt. 4 and Rt. 77. At this intersection take a left onto Rt. 177 South (South Main Street) On this corner you'll see Sovereign Bank. Proceed over the Steel Bridge and at the first light after you cross the bridge take a left onto New Britain Avenue. Go approx .8 of a mile and the Senior Center will be on your left (Address - 321 New Britain Avenue, Unionville, CT) police station is also here.
Dr. Bernard Raxlen, M.D.P.C.
is a practicing physician in Stamford, CT who specializes in diagnosis and treatment of complicated Lyme disease, and other tick-borne diseases and nutritional medicine. He is a Neuropsychiatrist with over twenty years of experience Dr. Raxlen was an original member and co-founder of AIMS (Academy for Integrated Medial Studies) and served for several years on the Board of Directors of the Omega Institute. He is a founding member and secretary of the Board of Governors of the International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society (ILADS). Dr. Raxlen is the only psychiatrist in the tri-state area to initiate a total comprehensive treatment program utilizing both oral and IV antibiotic treatment intervention in conjunction with neuropharmacology and stress management for depression, panic disorder, bipolar mood disorder, epileptiform seizure activity, ADD memory loss, sleep disorder, and pre-frontal lobe deficit syndrome. He has uniquely integrated these treatments with supportive modalities from his work in psychoneuroimmunology and nutritional medicine. He has been a featured speaker in many conferences and workshops over the years on psychoneuroimmunology and Lyme disease and has been on national television (NBC) discussing medical concerns that pertain to the practice of integrated medicine. His is the author of numerous scientific articles and four full-length plays and is presently in the process of writing a book entitled Renaissance Medicine.
Professor Garth Nicholson, Ph.D.
Is the President Chief Scientific Officer and a Research Professor at the Institute for Molecular Medicine. He has over 550 scientific and medical publications, several of which are citation classics. He holds 9 U.S. patents. Formerly he was the David Bruton Jr. Chair in Cancer Research, Professor and Chairman, Dept. of Tumor biology at the University of Texas M. D. Anderson Cancer Center, and he has held various other professorships including Professor of Internal Medicine and University of Texas Medical School at Houston and Professor of Comparative Pathology at Texas A & M University. Dr. Nicolson's interests are in the biochemistry and molecular genetics of cancer progression with particular interests in the areas of metastasis or spread of cancer, paracrine growth factors and invasion enzymes. He is also engaged in research on the role of chronic infections in a variety of chronic illnesses, such as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Fibromyalgia Syndrome, Rheumatoid Arthritis, Gulf War Illness and various autoimmune diseases. He hold a Ph.D. Biochemistry/Cell Biology, University of California Dan Diego (1970); B.S. Chemistry, University of California Los Angeles (1965), Founded IMM 1996.
Professor Lida Mattman, Ph.D.
Has spend sever decades studying the different forms that bacteria can take, publishing the textbook on Stealth Pathogens, ``Cell Wall Deficient Forms.'' Graduated with a M.S. in Virology from Univ. of Kansas and Ph.D. in Immunology from Yale, She has taught Immunology, Microbiology, Bacteriology, Virology, Pathology, and for 35 years worked in these fields at various schools and institutions including Harvard Univ., Howard Hughes Institute, Oakland Univ. and Wayne State Univ. where she is Professor Emeritus. Currently working for the Nelson Medical Research Institute studying the relationship of spirochetes involved in MS, Lyme and ALS. In 1998 she was nominated for the Nobel Prize in Medicine.
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nancyatlymesupportcom
Flash Member
Posts: 9
From: Shelton CT USA
Registered: Dec 2003
posted 30 March 2005 13:42
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There are formatting errors in the previous entry which are beyond my control due to limitations of cutting and pasting. To see this as a formatted pdf file, follow this link: http://lymesupport.com/LD-flyer-may-7-2005.pdf
or for a web page version: http://lymesupport.com/May-7-2005-seminar.htm
quote:
Originally posted by break the chains:
[B]it seems garth nickelson has finally made the connection and is speaking on mycoplasmas at a conference in connecticut next month about the co-infections of "lyme". i am very glad important people like him are realizeing that lyme is the same thing. two doctors i have seen are also speaking here, including the one i have been mentioning so much here.B]
and btw rayja, don't worry about who I associate with on the internet. just because I'm not a governor rowland conspiracy groupie doesn't mean weisman and I are lovers. Although I have been thinking about asking him to go to hawaii with me.
mind your own associations, and I'll mind mine. weisman may be disagreeable at times, but he is intelligent and has been a good source of information.
quote:
Originally posted by break the chains:
maybe he was moved to yale to tell people they dont have lyme. i tried to go to docotor shapiro at yale and on the phone was told that if my knees werent so swollen that i couldnt walk that it wasnt lyme diseasae. i finally did get an appointment with another yale doctor who ended up basicly saying the same thing. "its not lyme even though you have positive blood tests and are disabled."
yale is in the belly of the establishment.
CDC is the center for disease coverups.
Just the fact that he calls LymeNet "LymeNut" should help you understand that he views the whole of Lymeland with the same touching level of compassion and humanity as Shapiro - ZERO.
I'm not a "Rowland conspiracy groupie" , Bruce. Kathleen had problems with the Rowland administration because she lived in Connecticut where he seemed to be running his own little mafia. I've hardly ever mentioned Rowland, as I'm not in Ct.
I didn't call you "Weisman's lover." If you want to go to Hawaii with him, that's your business. Personally, I'd rather go on holiday in the Bermuda Triangle with Jack the Ripper.
Lisa
quote:
Originally posted by Aligondo Bruce:
well, you have to realize that eugene shapiro is one of the most morally and ethically corrupt human beings on the planet. this is the guy who pins the label "hypochondriac" on most lyme sufferers, and goes out of his way to do so, in cross country lectures and such. I mean, this guy deserves at least life in prison when all the dust settles on this stuff.and btw rayja, don't worry about who I associate with on the internet. just because I'm not a governor rowland conspiracy groupie doesn't mean weisman and I are lovers. Although I have been thinking about asking him to go to hawaii with me.
mind your own associations, and I'll mind mine. weisman may be disagreeable at times, but he is intelligent and has been a good source of information.
In response to some of your posts directed at or to me:
Oxygenbabe, thanks for the book recommendation(Matsumoto). I will try to read it at some point. My assumption is he has evidence that the military is performing risky vaccine experiments on our soldiers. I agree. My belief is this is all part of an overall enemy(communist or whoever) strategy to weaken the American population just as the Lyme epidemic is part of the strategy. Yes some people in the military who are calling the shots on this are well aware of what they are doing. My point is their loyalties lie elsewhere. most of the military is innocently going along because they mistakenly respect and believe what this compromised authority is telling them about the necessity of the vaccine program. Let me turn it around on you. This is a dangerous world. Do you honestly believe that our own loyal military leaders would knowingly do something that could and will so weaken so many of our soldiers and place this country at risk. If our country is at risk because of a weakened military so our these leaders. Are our military leaders asleep at the switch? Absolutely. But just like the EIS, I will put money on the fact that our military has been infiltrated and it is these infiltrators who are in charge of the vaccine program.
DLL: Yes of course the communists have infiltrated other Western governments. This is not new news. This is an East vs West thing. Anyone who thinks the Cold War ended with the break-up of the Soviet Union and the tumbling of the Berlin Wall is both naive and blind. There are plenty of news stories to substantiate that this is ongoing. And of course I am speaking of more than just Russia. The communists are united in their disdain for the West and do work together. We're talking Russia, China, North Korea and others.
Paul,thanks for putting me in the same company with Jeanne Kirkpatrick. She is one smart, saavy lady. I will respond to you by paraphrazing Winston Churchill. Capitalism is a very flawed system. It just happens to be far superior to any other system devised to date.
That's it folks. Now have at me.
Deer are a factor, but there are many studies out there indicating that Lyme can rely on other reservoirs including rodents. One researcher here has published that the chief reseervoir for Lyme in Britain is pheasants. It did not receive much attention because our mass media never talks about Lyme anyway, which we officially "don't have", or near enough.
The tick which is considered the main Lyme vector in Europe, Ixodes ricinus, has always been known to ordinary people as "the sheep tick".
If the problem was just a matter of increasing deer, what could explain the fact that such a massively disproportionate number of the leading Steere camp personnel just happen to be biowarfaremen/EIS members etc?
And why should the British government (which denies doing any Lyme research for the past 6 years) inform an international meeting on bioterrorism that, as part of their security measures to protect against biological weapon threats, they are keeping a close eye on Lyme (and co-infections) in their specialist unit at Porton Down (the UK's Detrick?)
You see, it's not just a question that Plum Island has admitted doing experiments on ticks. It would be possible to accept that, and still argue that Lyme was of no interest to biowarriors, until we realise that the majority of those denying the reality of Lyme are tied up with biowarfare. That cannot be co-incidence; there must be a reason.
Lisa
quote:
Originally posted by HaplyCarlessdave:
There might be some sonspiracies happening, and I have no doubt that those jokers out on plum island are investigating lyme and other nasty disease with warin their minds. But I don't think that's a factor in the lyme epidemic, at least yet. Lyme has proliferated largely because deer have adaped; are evolving, to live in cities. ..... DaveS
I hope you didn't see my post to you as 'an attack', it was not intended that way. You have a right to your opinion and we don't have to agree on some things. What I was saying was basically that if you can demonstrate/back up what you are saying, I will listen/consider it.
But, also, I very much keep up with the news (and I'm not talking Fox News), and I am obviously not reading what you're reading because I do not see any real evidence for what you're saying - that it's an East vs. West 'thing'. Why would certain countries like Sweden and Poland have very high Borreliosis infection rates - what would 'the communists' have to gain by targeting one neutral country and one which is basically just emerging out of the Eastern bloc itself? That makes no sense to me.
However, Ticktox, you are saying (and I don't think I imagined this), that Lyme is the result of a communist conspiracy currently underway, as the countries of the former Soviet bloc are just pretending to be capitalist (????)
I guess the billionaire oligarchs in Russia are just pretending to be billionaires? And what's more you say the reds have taken over CDC, NIH, etc.
I am trying not to die of laughter here, picturing an updated version of the Manchurian Candidate, with McSweegan as the brainwashed US officer. Does this mean that if we get the jack-of-spades, or whatever it was, and wave it under McSweegan's nose, he will snap out of it and come on TV and admit that the Dressler-Steere criteria was full of sh*t? LOL.
Anyway, let's imagine that all the above really happened, the ALDF are secretly commies, so is CDC, so are NIH, Allen Steere sings the Red Falg to his T-cell collection before kissing them all good night,etc, as per your theory, ticktox.
I guess you mean so is the Bush administration (all that oil wealth was a great camouflage, huh? Who'd ever have guessed - Dubya is really a marxist-leninist guerilla who trained with Che in the desert - well some kind of gorilla anyway).
Anyhow, let's say we were to accept all that so far. You then say that the Russians, having fooled us into thinking they are capitalist and installed Bush, Steere etc as their puppets, spread Lyme on the US to weaken its population. Why then, is Russia and the former eastern bloc ABSOLUTELY CHOCK FULL OF LYME?
Lisa
quote:
Originally posted by dontlikeliver:
Hi Ticktox,....... Why would certain countries like Sweden and Poland have very high Borreliosis infection rates - what would 'the communists' have to gain by targeting one neutral country and one which is basically just emerging out of the Eastern bloc itself? That makes no sense to me.
Another quote by James Warburg to the Senate on Foreign Relations Committee on Feb. 17, 1950 " We shall have world government whether or not you like it, by conquest or consent."
The next one is what I think is happening and in order to have control over people to accomplish the goal of world government...you need to weaken everyone ...all over the world...to make them dependant and in the end begging for help from the very forces who caused the whole mess in the first place. It's called Problem_ Reaction -Solution Those in power create the problem...anticipating a certain reaction from the public...then they offer their solution whic was their goal in the first place. The crazy part is that the people end up believing the solution was their idea and then clammor for it.
"The drive of the Rockefellers and their allies is to create a one world government combining supercapitalism and Communism under the same tent, all under their control...Do I mean conspiracy? Yes I do. I am convinced there is such a plot, international in scope, generations old in planning, and incredibly evil in intent." Congressman Larry P. McDonald, 1976, killed in the Korean Airlines 747 that was shot down by the Soviets.
John Kennedy was speaking to Columbia University and said something to the effect that The office of president is being used to foment a plot against the American people and I must warn them of their plight before I leave office. This speech was given ten days before he was murdered.
And yes...as far as mycoplasmas go...I attended a couple of Plum Island meetings which were held for the public. After one of them I went up to the Director Of Plum Island and privately spoke to her. I had a journal in front of me that was highlighted with facts I wanted to bring up .I asked her if Plum Island ever worked with mycoplasmas. She began to say a definite no but when she noticed I was referring to some information her NO trailed off into a noooooooo...weeeeelllllll we did study one strain and she named it. I wasn't smart enough to have a pen handy so I didn't get to write this all down. Then I asked her...what about when Jawad A. was there...the Iraqi researcher who was doing his graduate training on mycoplasmas. She responded with....Oh yes.....Hmmmm.....when he was here we did study....and she named off 5 or 6 other strains of mycoplasma. I then said well..Jawad took all this mycoplasma info over to Bagdad and headed up the mycoplasma research at the U. of Bagdad. Then the Gulf war ensues, the vets start becoming ill, then PRIVATE researchers begin finding a modified patented mycoplasma (patented by the army)in the blood of these sick veterans. Of course our govt. has denied this. They say it is all in our veterans heads. They are stressed. All Dr. Thomas did was to sheepishly nod her head in agreement. I then asked if they studied mycoplasma fermentens. She immediately knew what I was talking about and said no. She also said no to Brucellosis. Michael Carroll got that information from me and I am listed in the acknowledgements of his book....among many many other people.
Almost forgot. Jawad has since been killed. It is said that a car hit him while he was changing a tire
As soon as things alluding to illuminati, freemasonry, communist infiltration and the like are used in trying to highlight Lyme, it's current testing shortcomings, (diagnosis), treatment, etc - I think that nobody would listen, and the 'Lyme community' would be in a worse position that we're in now in terms of not getting any respect.
It is unfortunate that serious issues such as any Lyme coverup get jumbled up with things that are bordering on 'down the rabbit hole', David Icke, type stuff (UFO's, reptilians, Planet X, polar shifts, etc). Going down that road just starts to blur everything and I think a lot of it is pure fantasy. But, that's just my opinion having read quite a bit of it.
I am sure mycoplasma is part of the equation (and I know one strain has been patented) of chronic illness for many of us, and maybe also Brucellosis for some.
I have to stay out of the political theories arena, as much as I would lik to participate, I am too sick to come out and play todya.
When I had testing done mycoplasma showed up. I didn't think it was a big deal becasue I thought I just have to kick the lyme first. But it sounds as though I am being too casual about it.
What kind of treatment do I need for this?
How many people are being tested for this?
Ticktox, what am I supposed to say to someone who says, "I'll try to read it someday" and then starts talking as if he's already read it and knows what it's about.
YOu think you're asking a rhetorical question:
"Do you honestly believe that our own loyal military leaders would knowingly do something that could and will so weaken so many of our soldiers and place this country at risk."
Yes of course. Their reasoning was, esp in gulf war #1, that they didn't have enough vaccine to protect everybody, so if they used squalene, they could strengthen it, use less, and vaccinate everybody. It is indeed "collateral" damage when some of those vets get ill and stay ill. I was dicussing this with someone who had no pity for the vets, saying, being a soldier is risky business and you can die, and they signed on for it. I'm not sure I agree because that ignores social pressures, in certain environments, becoming a soldier is one of the few ways some kids can make a decent and 'honorable' living, and there may be peer pressure, and they may be completely naive about the consequences. But in any case, even if it is a choice and risky business, those vets should be taken care of, and they haven't been. There has been a lot of denial.
It really annoys me you won't even look at the book, so I will shrug you off now, like a tick, lol.
BTW there was a piece in the NY Times today about chagas disease which is usually spread by the bite of a bug, being in a sugar cane drink in south america and being much more virulent (usually it begins mildly and wreaks damage over decades). How it was spread in sugar cane I'd like to know. Why it was so much more virulent I'd also like to know. That is so atypical. So much weird stuff is happening these days I do not know who is experimenting on who and where. And mad deer disease is already on the east coast, so that's a matter of time. WOrse is to come.
As for our gov't being overrun by communists, I think I made it pretty clear in an earlier post that if we have been compromised it probably is by a relatively small number of mostly non-elected officials in important places of authority and decision making.
As for the fact that Lyme is rampant in the former Soviet states, my response is so. No one ever accused the communists of caring about their own people either. And no I never said Poland or the other former Soviet states are faking capitalism. It is real. What I essentially said is that the Soviet leaders took a step back to take two steps forward later. Addition by subtraction as it were.
I think some of Daystar's points are valid as well. This could all be part of a new world order, again perpetrated on us by a relatively small group of powerful people from various countries.
What I don't think it is is our own government deliberately poisoning its own people as some strategic part of its biowarfare program. My point throughout my posts is that it is not simply our own government turning on us but rather some rogue element within our government doing this as part of some grander plan.
This thread has gone so far off topic and I accept much of the resposibility for that. I apologize for ever bringing all this stuff up. Lets agree there is some kind of cover-up and leave it at that.
You think Maggie Thatcher was some kind of heroine? She was prime minister during many long years of Lyme coverup here. She was a great admirer of Ronald Reagan, who also presided over many long years of Lyme coverup (I presume you love him too, or was he too "communist" for you? LOL)
If you want to know about Thatcher, you ought to come here and talk to people who were around when she was prime minister. She was called "Thatcher, the Milk-Snatcher" because one of her first actions was to take away the free pint of milk that poor schoolchildren were entitled to. I've just finished reading a book about her.
In the 80's she made the streets of Britain's major cities look like Charles Dickens' era overnight, by taking away the right of unemployed 16-17 year olds to receive welfare benefits if they had no job. In the past, kids this age who lived in abusive families and had been forced to run away could find a bedsit and have their rent paid, plus a little money to live on, till they could find a job (not easy for a 16 year old wuith no experience, who left home with just the clothes on his/her back). Then Thatcher changed the law, and they all ended up on the streets homeless, begging, used as prostitutes or slaves to the drug gangsters.
Except for the lucky few who found a way out, I am guessing that most of them are dead by now - AIDS, smack overdose, assault, TB, exposure, suicide, etc.. Life expectancy on the streets is not very long, and 35 would be a ripe old age.
But to get back on topic. It doesn't take a sage to understand that your beloved "market forces" are what drives Kaiser and BCBS and all the other insurance companies to tell Lymies to go to hell. What do you think Maggie Thatcher would say (if she can tear herself away from defending her son who is up to his neck in financial scandal at the moment)? She would say:
"Screw the Lymies, long live the clever entrepreneurs!!!"
All this talk about a joint capitalist-communist conspiracy which has taken over the US army is ridiculous, and highly reminiscent of old Hitler propaganda from the 30's and 40's.
The fact that the EIS have been able to enforce the Steere camp viewpoint across the entire US, and much of the rest of the world, in the face of all logic and scientific fact, shows clearly that this is not a matter of a few "foreign infiltrators" influencing policy, but a decision that has come right from the top.
So, going by your (pretzel) logic, you'd have to say more than just "communists are trying to take over America", you'd have to say "America is run by communists right now".
But maybe that IS your belief, in which case you are so far out to lunch, you are somewhere between breakfast and dinner next week.
Marjorie Tietjen, I hear what you say about the Iraqi scientist at Plum messing around with mycoplasma. It would not surprise me at all. But that does not indicate any "communist" leadership of Plum Island, much less of America's biowarfare as a whole. That's absurd.
It's common knowledge that the US, UK, France etc supplied WMD materials to Iraq. They did it to bolster up Iraq against the soviet-backed Iran. Do you hear me? They gave Saddam these horrific weapons in order to strengthen him AGAINST communism.
I don't know why you have to go to such bizarre lengths to escape the truth - our own lovely governments, our own generals, are what did this to us. Not deliberately, IMO. But whatever the origin of the Lyme epidemic - leak at Plum, badly designed experiment that went wrong, cold war attack by soviet bloc, rebound from western attack on soviet bloc, etc, etc - two things are clear.
One, the whole matter of Lyme and associated tick-borne disease is a matter of HUGE interest to the military (hence the disproportionate number of Steere camp swine who are biowarmen.)
Two, the military top brass have a motive to make the public believe that Lyme is hard to catch, easy to cure, and in general, not a big problem. Along with this, they seek to control all research into the science of Lyme, and persecute any doctors who don't toe the line.
These two things are provable, and once we make that proof widely available, we should begin to be able to change things, even if we can't yet prove exactly what has caused this epidemic.
To expose that the Steere camp is run by military, and by scientists with glaring conflicts of interest with insurance and other industries, will begin to open the door to change. There is no need to spin ridiculous yarns about America being run by communists, which will get the door shut right in our faces by fellow Lymies, never mind anyone else.
As for the idea of "how could our good American generals do this to us" - well, how did they do all the 1001 things they have done, both to their own troops and to US civilians, in the name of military research? what about the Tuskegee experiment ,done by CDC during McCarthy times (ok, let me guess, McCarthy was really a closet communist, right?)
What about the soldiers lured into blowing their brains out with LSD?
What about the vets contaminated by Agent Orange?
OK, let me guess, the Viet Cong was running America in the 70's and Agent Oranged and napalmed themselves so nobody would ever guess they had taken over Nixon's brain, right?
Gimme a break.
Can we get back to planet earth now, please?
Lisa
The post below is by "ChuckpAdams", a Steere camp provocateur who has been hanging out on sci.med.diseases.lyme for some years. I also had the "pleasure" of several private conversations with him, because he used to Instant-Message me to harass me whenever he could, once I began to speak out about the fraud.
There is ABSOLUTELY no doubt in my mind that this man (whom I have reason to believe is one of the millions of internet personas of Ed McSweegan, but I won't go into that now)-is ULTRA-PATRIOTIC. It is crystal clear to me that he believes that what he has been involved in, ie mass persecution of the Lyme community when he was Lyme programme officer at NIH, plus his role as a bioweapons expert - was for the good of America.
I base this not only on my private chats with him, (there's one in particular where he recited a bizarre poem to me about the US Marines being invincible, about his rifle being part of his soul, etc etc), but also on things like his post below.
Reading his post, we get a glimpse of the mindset we are dealing with, at least in some of them. I won't say all, because I don't believe that all the Steere camp are quite as �$%$�$%ed up as this man. I think generally they are more pragmatic than him, ie it's not that they all enjoy mass murder so much (though doubtless some do), it's just that they believe that it's the patriotic, strategically necessary thing to do.
No one could read this and think that the man is not a patriotic American. He is ULTRA-patriotic, but also totally, utterly insane, (which, as with Hitler, often goes hand in hand). Reading this, it's really not hard to see how he could be so callously indifferent to the hundreds of thousands of Lymie "collateral damage". Here it is below.
Lisa
From: Chuck P Adams ([email protected])
Subject: The Glory of war. Patton,Bush, Iraq and beyond
View this article only
Newsgroups: sci.med.diseases.lyme
Date: 2004-03-12 15:23:03 PST
When I was a kid, I liked vaporizing ants with hammers and burning them with magnifying glasses, acting like a microcosmic god delivering slow or fast death upon ants.
Like the thrill of victory or the taste of good food, a person can know it, and call it "good" or "fun," but words can't convey feelings to those who've not felt them.
Fun. That simple word stands for many things, including glory, thrill, and "just for the hell of it." Our need for it is in our guts and in our genes. Our ancestors have sought fun all the way back to the time when they were molecules and single atoms. If there is a Purpose to life, maybe it is to enjoy ourselves, have fun.
But fun isn't always premised on good times and prettiness. It is often death and suffering, conquered nations or tribes, dead women and children.
It is mostly regarded as crazy to assert that the prospects of war or economic collapse or natural disaster are exciting and fun to contemplate, to examine, confront; that it is wonderful to have been scared out of your wits, to have dealt with the situation, and to have survived to tell about the thrill of it all. Such a thrill is for many people a memorable high point in life.
Many human beings, most male human beings, seem to be born with this desire. And we are effectively the priests of original sin, knowing how to direct physical energy to build and to destroy.
It is thrilling, and "fun" to have that power, use it, or at least fantasize about it. There is a scene in the movie Patton where George C. Scott as General Patton looks out over a battlefield at the bodies and smoldering tanks after a battle and says: "I love it so. God help me I do love it so. I love it more than life itself."
That scene, and that line, make the Patton character look insane, but it also admits a basic truth. Fun, thrill, the glory of victory in a hard-fought contest such as a war, a fist fight, an exhausting race up a steep gravelly incline, we do so love victory and its symbols: gold cups, pennants, scalps, ears, skins; a million dollars, or a billion, or more. Or The Button itself in front of you -- or devastation all around.
America's military power being used to "shock and awe" the Iraqi forces and people is instinctively attractive. Yes, it's cruel, but it sure is fun, and if you don't enjoy enough of it on TV the first time around, it'll be fun to watch on the History Channel for years to come.
"So George W., now be honest please: why do you want to attack Iraq?"
"Well, . . . to be as honest as I can, I wanna kill that mother****er."
"Why, George?"
"Because I have the power to do it. Because I am the most powerful human being ever -- and that is true! I wanna do it because it'll be fun, and God help me, I will love it so."
That's acceptable as a reason for this war.
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Originally posted by oxygenbabe:
[B]......YOu think you're asking a rhetorical question:
"Do you honestly believe that our own loyal military leaders would knowingly do something that could and will so weaken so many of our soldiers and place this country at risk."Yes of course. Their reasoning was, esp in gulf war #1, that they didn't have enough vaccine to protect everybody, so if they used squalene, they could strengthen it, use less, and vaccinate everybody. It is indeed "collateral" damage when some of those vets get ill and stay ill. I was dicussing this with someone who had no pity for the vets, saying, being a soldier is risky business and you can die, and they signed on for it. ...B]