I grew up in Dutchess County in the fifties. Never saw a tick despite "exploring" the wooods & fields all around Poughkeepsie. Today that is a highly endemic area and ticks are plentiful.

Has global warming created a better environment for ticks? Has global warming killed off some unknown microscopic parasite that used to keep the tick pop. down? Is some bird now extinct that used to consume ticks? Is the increase in ticks really due to the increase in the deer population and/or to the increase in vegetation?

Get out the turkey shooter and give em a blast!

Borrelia has been around a long time, but what we have here is not simply an increase in the strain that existed before.

That's evident in the nature of the disease and response to treatment, among many other things.

I agree there is no use in invalid "conspiracy theories"..but in this case there is much information that seems illogical to ignore at this point if we are to gain acknowledgement, research, adequate care, discrediting dangerous information on care, ect.

Mo

quote:

---

Originally posted by lou:
Right, treepatrol, so how about running off the endless plum island posts? Get them to head for support or off topic, or off the wall. Seems like we have several of those running at the same time.

Get out the turkey shooter and give em a blast!

Not mad at you, since you are right. Just aggravated at how many people seem to fall for this stuff.

---

Hey hey I did let them know Lou I am not the enforcer just putting in gentle reminders

some are backed up with good logic and scientific data.

these things can provide a motive for the bizarre highly unethical scientific research which has been promulgated by steere and klempner to name a couple which in any other field would have endangered or destroyed their careers not to mention the reasoning behind government approval of grants which has defied logic in some cases.

quote:

---

Originally posted by lou:
Right, treepatrol, so how about running off the endless plum island posts? Get them to head for support or off topic, or off the wall. Seems like we have several of those running at the same time.

Get out the turkey shooter and give em a blast!

Not mad at you, since you are right. Just aggravated at how many people seem to fall for this stuff.

---

Corrupt and incompetent people are the cause of many problems. Don't need conspiracies to explain these things.

The "establishment", for lack of a better word, has made the word conspiracy look foolish...like a conspiracy is science fiction. Of course you will think this is another conspiracy theory..but it's not a theory , it's a fact. Making people look foolish or accusing them of being a traitor for questioning the things going on around them, is a well known tactic used by governments or others who are in control and want to stay in control.

Dictionary definition of conspiracy....."An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful or subversive act. An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action. "

Lyme patients, are often singled out for this treatment, might be expected to know better.

This would, however, be naive. In real life, nothing is more common than for the victims of evil acts to deny that anyone means them harm.

In the early days of the Nazis, there were plenty of Jews in Germany saying 'things are bad enough, without us raising these hysterical specters.'

What is far fetched is imagining that research with zoonotic pathogens, like that carried out at the Plum Island facility, is likely to be 'safe' and 'well-contained'. Unlike warheads, ticks and other vectors actively resist efforts at containment.

If someone says 'I know for a fact that the Lyme epidemic is a product of bioweapons research,' I would question that. I haven't seen anything that constitutes proof.

But for heaven's sake, almost nothing related to this disease is settled by the facts (which are few in number and are themselves often subject to dispute, in a way that facts about syphilis, for example, are not).

Is it a 'fact' that most people who pursue high-dose, ILADs-style antibiotic treatment will get well? No. Are we all wildly irrational, because we insist on our right to that treatment, in the absence of compelling proof of its efficacy? Again, no. It is at least possible, consistent with accepted facts, that this strategy will work.

The evidence for a link between bioweapons research and Lyme may be only suggestive, not conclusive. One could compare it to a criminal charge based on circumstantial evidence. Only in this case, the state, not some private party, stands accused. States do not voluntarily produce documentation of their crimes, nor do they turn their police powers against themselves.

The LOGIC of the situation dictates that only citizens can investigate such a crime and seek remedy if they feel the charge is just.

They would warn settlers of a 'curse' in the hills, to not go up there, since so many of their own suffered as a result.

They were talking about Babs.

But I am sure the Native Americans were healthier to fight the diseases as a result of diet and exercise.

I think it's reported more now due to better testing and awareness, and due to the suburbs expanding into wooded areas. All of the wildlife gets compressed into smaller and smaller squared miles.

quote:

---

Originally posted by CA quest:
Even though conspiracies are more fun, let us use logic. Quest

---

With respect, is it logical that people should be refused appropriate diagnosis and treatment for decades, despite overwhelming evidence that Lyme is not "hard to catch, easy to cure", nor restricted to an arthritis, nor always characterised by a bullseye rash etc?

Is it logical that such a disproportionate numnber of key doctors , scientists and government officials responsible for that refusal should turn out to be from the field of biowarfare? Plus the inevitable insurance, vaccine and biotech company whores etc.

An increase in ticks will obviously cause an increase in tick-borne disease. But that does not detract from the other issues mentioned above, nor does it explain the cruelty and stubborn refusal of the Steere camp to help Lyme patients.

Lisa

But that in itself provides a rationale and a logic why the Steere camp fraud is DELIBERATE, and that in itself needs exposing.

I don't believe it's simply a matter of "incompetence" - many of the worst Steere camp swine are among the top in their field scientifically.

However, having their snouts in the trough of insurance money (as some of them proudly admit to), or of Glaxo SmithKline etc, would not explain the extremely disproportionate number of biowarfaremen and elite military ID personnel involved.

I agree with you that the recent influx of money into biowarfare research would obviously attract anyone who's skilled in the art of milking the taxpayer. But that money only started flowing relatively recently (as far as what we have been told anyway), and only really big-time after 9-11.

If you examine the background of most of these bastards, they were in that field long long before then.

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by lou:
I am even boring myself, repeating this so often:

Corrupt and incompetent people are the cause of many problems. Don't need conspiracies to explain these things.

Yes, some of the same people are involved in Lyme research fraud and biowarfare. That just means they know how to milk the system of whatever money is flowing from the gov't. And they haven't a clue when it comes to morals and ethics. See, they fail on both counts: their scientific research and their ethics.

---

I have no problem with the suggestion to take the biowar discussion of "Medical" (it's already in existence on "General support".)

But I can imagine many medical questions where it may pop up again.

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by paulscha:
Characterizing other human beings as irrational because you don't like what they're saying is a bad habit.

Lyme patients, are often singled out for this treatment, might be expected to know better.

This would, however, be naive. In real life, nothing is more common than for the victims of evil acts to deny that anyone means them harm.

In the early days of the Nazis, there were plenty of Jews in Germany saying 'things are bad enough, without us raising these hysterical specters.'

What is far fetched is imagining that research with zoonotic pathogens, like that carried out at the Plum Island facility, is likely to be 'safe' and 'well-contained'. Unlike warheads, ticks and other vectors actively resist efforts at containment.

If someone says 'I know for a fact that the Lyme epidemic is a product of bioweapons research,' I would question that. I haven't seen anything that constitutes proof.

But for heaven's sake, almost nothing related to this disease is settled by the facts (which are few in number and are themselves often subject to dispute, in a way that facts about syphilis, for example, are not).

Is it a 'fact' that most people who pursue high-dose, ILADs-style antibiotic treatment will get well? No. Are we all wildly irrational, because we insist on our right to that treatment, in the absence of compelling proof of its efficacy? Again, no. It is at least possible, consistent with accepted facts, that this strategy will work.

The evidence for a link between bioweapons research and Lyme may be only suggestive, not conclusive. One could compare it to a criminal charge based on circumstantial evidence. Only in this case, the state, not some private party, stands accused. States do not voluntarily produce documentation of their crimes, nor do they turn their police powers against themselves.

The LOGIC of the situation dictates that only citizens can investigate such a crime and seek remedy if they feel the charge is just.

People who seek to exercise there civic responsibility can make mistakes. Not every charge made against the state by its citizens is accurate. But to mock people for making the effort is really unconscionable.

---

You would like to focus on logic.

Using this kind of reasoning, where do you think the lyme numbers are going to be 5 years from now, 10 years from now.

Logic would tell us that the numbers are going to be staggering!

Using logic again, do you think that if our medical system can not or will not handle the number of lyme patients we have now - do you think it will be able to handle it 5 or 10 years from now...

...especially when we consider that we don't have big research dollars (besides Fallon do we have any other research) passionately working on this NO. 1 emerging infectious disease in the country. Also, consider the lack of new antibiotics in our arsenal and the issue of antibiotic resistance.

Most of us are just getting by. We are the "lucky" ones. We have been diagnosed and some of us are being treated. However, many of us are incapacitated/disabled and not contributing to our nation's productivity.

What will happen to our society's productivity when even more people are disabled? Just look at the generation of children with this disease. These children will one day be our leaders. How will they lead if they are incapacitated? Without a medical miracle I don't think that my two children will be contributing to the productivity of our society. They won't be the leaders that I always dreamed they would be. They are both disabled and I can only hope that we will be able to find the right medications to have healthly and productive lives.

We all know that the numbers are rising. What happens when this explodes? Do you honestly believe we will be prepared for this epidemic?

One can say that it is rarely fatal now (which I question, because of its multi-organ system complexities. We really don't know how many illnesses like ADD, autism, MS, ALS or deaths from suicides, alzheimers, kidney or cardiovascular diseases are due to complications stemming from Lyme because it hasn't been considered and investigated in the last 20-30 years.

So if lyme is associated with any of the diseases mentioned above and we are not prepared when this disease hits us even harder...logically is our healthcare system going to be prepared to handle the onslaught?

If there are those that want to hammer out the conspiracy theory here, it should be welcomed. This forum is exactly the place this should be allowed to happen. We are here for answers.
I don't want to put my head in the sand. I want the truth. If we have to look under every rock, what is the harm?

I have been naive for 20 years. I believed that the best medical system in the world was going to take care of me. I have been slapped around pretty hard this past year, but at least I woke up. Even though I had been told by the CDC in '85 that I was cured, I used logic and deductive reasoning to figure out that I still had Lyme disease. It isn't an accident that 20+ drs. just this past year were not able to figure out why I am in a wheelchair. It was my better judgement and guidance that unlocked this mystery. I am going to use that same judgement and guidance to discover what is really going on. It is cathartic. It is not anger that propels me forward, although I have had this most natural response to the injustices we are living. It is my natural curiousity and interest in improving this disaster that propels me towards finding answers. We won't be able to make much headway unless we blow this wide open.

Other theories like global warming, deer populations should be welcomed as well because the bottome line is that we should investigate any and all leads that could lead us in the direction of finding out why we are ignored, ridiculed and denied proper medical care. Logic has the hair on the back of my neck standing up regarding this disease. Something is not right. Perhaps it is more apparent to those who have gone 10-20+ years without a diagnosis. Those of us who have endured this realize a general trend ...that all of the drs., the top specialists in the country were kindly showing us the way to the psych wards.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paisley:
Even though I had been told by the CDC in '85 that I was cured, I used logic and deductive reasoning to figure out that I still had Lyme disease. It isn't an accident that 20+ drs. just this past year were not able to figure out why I am in a wheelchair. It was my better judgement and guidance that unlocked this mystery. I am going to use that same judgement and guidance to discover what is really going on. ........We need answers so that we can have strategies.

---

If we can only gather enough people with that kind of determination to get to the bottom of this fraud, the Steere camp would soon be sunk.

Lisa

Think I have heard too much of this kind of thing over the years to be convinced that it will lead to any action. Just look at the more modest goals and see that those don't even have adequate support.

To me, these threads seem to be giving everyone a chance to share thoughts on this..
thread topics on are open so they may be discussed..right?

I mean, otherwise it shouldn't be on a Lyme/medical board in which members of the group have their own thoughts and opinions/info on the issue..

In that case..one should just print a closed statement in some other sort of venue.

Mo

And Lou....it's not just Plum Island we are concerned about. That is just the tip of the iceberg. Our modest goals don't have enough support because they are being blocked by financial and ideological concerns of those who seem to have the power. We need to ask more questions and not be so trusting of the government in order to get the Truth out and UNBLOCK the underlying reasons why we cannot get treated. If we do not uncover their efforts.... which are under the protection of secrecy... they will continue to block any positive efforts we put forth.I kept bringing this fact up at our CT Hearing planning committee. Most people said to me...oh yes...we know this is going on but we must be credible. This uncovering business can always wait till later when we have our foot in the door. Well, needless to say nothing really productive came out of the Hearing. The Attorney General did come up with 1 good statement directed towards the CDC. He stongly suggested to them that they send out some sort of notice or warning to all Health Departments, doctors, labs, etc...NOT to use the CDC criteria when diagnosing Lyme. It's been a year since the Hearing and instead of fulfilling this request the CDC has diverted everyone's attention from the diagnostic criteria and is placing focus on labs and putting down their tests which are discovering the true proportions of the epidemic. They are also attacking all the websites which post information contrary to their information. In other words they are saying that only government info and studies are valid. I think we need to point this out.

I also feel that all this "uncovering" does not have to be done in a vengeful or hateful manner. If we want to get anywhere I think we have to be wise, firm and just but yet hold forgiveness and Love in our hearts.Otherwise our world will never change. We will just keep fighting back and forth...pulling and tugging at each other. "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." They really don't know what they are doing in the long range spiritual scheme of things.

The people who commit crimes against humanity are full of fear...fear of not having enough...fear of not being loved and accepted....etc. So we have to try not to feed into that fear which would only add more to the turmoil we are already facing.

If you feel that the point of view of people who believe that there is a very significant military/biowarfare side of the Lyme tragedy is wrong/misleading etc, why not just avoid the thread?

After all, it was pretty clear both from this thread and the one started by Daniella about Lab 257, what the subject matter was.

I have never heard of anyone being censored, threatened or expelled from a Lyme group for not believing there is a significant biowar-related aspect of the Lyme issue.

On the contrary, I HAVE seen that type of thing happen to those who do believe it, talk about it, etc..

Many people including me have given our point of view backed up by evidence. That is not a "rant". If you want to persuade us that we're wrong, you have to provide good logical arguments to prove it, not just throw words like "rant" and "conspiracy theory" at us.

Or, if you feel the whole discussion is a waste of time, why not just ignore us, and leave those of us who do want to discuss it , to do so?

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by lou:
I guess we don't get to say what we think. Seemed like one measely thread was not too much to ask for those of us who don't buy the Plum Island scenarios. Do you all who do believe this think that great long rants on internet forums is going to change any of this?

Think I have heard too much of this kind of thing over the years to be convinced that it will lead to any action. Just look at the more modest goals and see that those don't even have adequate support.

And finally, Lisa, you have been thru a lot, but I find it wearing to have you keep sledgehammering. Sorry. I really am sympathetic and glad you have retained some spunk.

---

But as to origins, the LAST thing we need as patient reps or advocates is to bring in conspiracy theories!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The best paper re Bb as far as infecting human population is, because it was long long ago- and ALSO because it was published in a field unconcerned with Lyme politics-
is- Bb from the skeletal remains of a prehistoric swampified childs body:

1: Am J Phys Anthropol. 1998 Jun;106(2):229-48. Related Articles, Links

Prehistoric juvenile rheumatoid arthritis in a precontact Louisiana native population reconsidered.

Lewis BA.

Department of Geography and Anthropology, Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge, USA. [email protected]

Descriptions of skeletal pathological conditions evident in the prehistoric Tchefuncte adolescent 16ST1-14883b are clarified. The basis is reaffirmed for assigning to the described pathological conditions a diagnostic perspective of juvenile rheumatoid arthritis or juvenile Lyme disease--a disease that mimics juvenile rheumatoid arthritis in its arthritic presentation--rather than of assigning them as representative of juvenile onset ankylosing spondylitis or other juvenile spondyloarthropathies. A hypothesis (Lewis [1994] Am. J. Phys. Anthropol. 93:455-475) is restated that 1) the spirochete Borrelia burgdorferi was the infectious agent responsible for prevalence of adult rheumatoid arthritis in prehistoric southeastern Native American populations, 2) that B. burgdorferi is a possible cause of the arthritis evident in individual 16ST1-14883b, and 3) that antibodies to B. burgdorferi provided partial immunity to the related spirochete Treponema pallidum for the 16ST1 precontact Tchefuncte population from Louisiana, protecting them from severe treponemal response. Given the probable widespread existence of Ixodid tick vectors for B. burgdorferi in prehistoric North America, coupled with the existence of treponematosis, it follows that the transition of Native American hunting-gathering economies to more sedentary economies would predictably be linked to an increased incidence of treponematosis due to the loss of benefits of the above-stated partial immunity. In other words, as prehistoric Native American exposure to tick vectors for B. burgdorferi decreased, susceptibility to treponematosis increased. Inferences regarding biological controls interacting with and influencing prehistoric Native American migration patterns are suggested from the link of B. burgdorferi to an Ixodid tick common to northeast Asia.

Publication Types:
Historical Article

PMID: 9637186 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course you get to say what you think. But I havn't heard what you think yet. What are your theories and some potential strategies to unlocking the truth?

The best public evidnce to date points towards something you don't want to consider. Is there a reason for that?

I do not consider myself ranting, rather brainstorming. I may not have the answers, but let's say that others who come to this forum begin to learn from our threads - isn't it possible that they may some how become involved in advocacy?

But to shut it down means that no one learns anything other than should we be taking Vit. b12 shots or not.

I had a good friend that was pretty high up in the military and went to Vietnam and Gulf War. He just passed away recently. Two days before he died I asked if he had a theory about his illness. He told me that he believed that it was the agent orange sprayed on them and the vaccinations from the Gulf War. So to pretend that our goverernment always has our best interest at heart is probably a bit naive at this point.

I don't know how much your are involvement in lyme advocacy. I don't want to underestimate your participation. Frankly, this is the most I do at this point.

But when you say: "Do you all who do believe this think that great long rants on internet forums is going to change any of this?"

Do you believe that not doing anything is going to change anything? Do you believe that by tossing these ideas around in a safe place and trying to culltivate some kind of collective concsiousness based on the facts (whatever they turn out to be) is a bad thing?

Even the modest goals deserve to have a life expectancy if we are going to change any of this.

Don't mean to give you a hard time Lou, but, should we just throw up our hands and say oh well, my children and I are going to be plagued by poor healthcare and we might as well expect to be treated like ***t.

military

quote:

---

Originally posted by lou:
I guess we don't get to say what we think. Seemed like one measely thread was not too much to ask for those of us who don't buy the Plum Island scenarios. Do you all who do believe this think that great long rants on internet forums is going to change any of this?

Think I have heard too much of this kind of thing over the years to be convinced that it will lead to any action. Just look at the more modest goals and see that those don't even have adequate support.

And finally, Lisa, you have been thru a lot, but I find it wearing to have you keep sledgehammering. Sorry. I really am sympathetic and glad you have retained some spunk.

---

Another tactic used is combining several agents and spreading them through vectors.Also adding parts of one microbe and inserting them into another. We certainly have a plethora of tickborne diseases. Combinations or Russian Doll cocktails make these diseases very difficult to diagnose and treat.

When a population is hit suddenly by an infectious agent which kills this alerts people to the danger and they quarantine and get out the antibiotics...which will abort the epidemic.

What these people might or might not do cannot be predicted on the basis of conventional notions of logic or morality.

In any case, all I have ever suggested is that Plum Island really does carry out the type of research declared in its public documents, research into zoonotic pathogens, that these pathogens are likely to have been manipulated in various ways and that because they are carried by living organisms containment is problematic.

That this had been going on for some time about 10 miles by water from Lyme Conneticut is hardly controversial. Nor is the notion that people have become ill as a result owe its origin to hysterical paranoids; as far as I can tell, people in the region suspected this before Lyme was ever named.

In other words, what is being implied is not a conspiracy of omniscient devils but an ill-conceived venture carried out by men whose dispositions and official roles dispose them to secrecy.

Perhaps Lou's position is that the national security state is a model of openness and rationality. I studied the national security state for years in the process of getting my degree in politics, and have reached a different conclusion.

But nothing Lou or I could say would comfort anyone living near a facility like Plum Island, who watched their community overtaken by a zoonotic pathogen that is, contra Steere and the rest, difficult to diagnose and highly resistant to treatment.

It's reasonable to insist that we not overstate the case - to my knowledge, there is no PROOF that Bb has been manipulated or 'weaponized', just a lot of very suggestive evidence that would lend credibility to that idea.

The proximity of the Plum Island facility to Lyme, however, given that facilities STATED purpose, would create doubts in any mind that was even slightly open to receiving them.

I did take note of the post about the swamp relic, but there is nothing conclusive about it. They don't even know that the relic represents an actual case of Lyme disease, they just think, again, that there is a fair bit of evidence to make that credible. It says something, that a prehistoric corpse dredged from a swamp is considered a very 'scientific' way to dismiss this whole concern.

Did spirochetes make people ill prior to the 20th century? Almost certainly. That in no way diminishes the possibility that the version of Lyme disease which exploded on the scene in the last third of the 20th century was modified at, or relased from, Plum Island.

Conspiracy is the way a certain part of the world does business - I don't know anyone who really believes that all the decisions which affect great numbers of human beings are carried out in public, or that decisions which cause great harm to multitudes are quickly admitted to. Such views are neither logical nor informed by history.

Conspiracy theory can be a kind of addiction, I suppose, but the voices that have raised concerns here about Plum Island are not those of conspiracy junkies. We come to the concern reluctantly, wishing it were as easy to dismiss as people like Lou imply.

Indeed, the world Lou's comments project is in every sense preferable to the world in which we actually live.

Incompetence, however costly, is ultimately a self-limiting proposition. What must concern us is the marriage of modern technological advances like those used in biowarfare to the bureaucratic ineptitude and habitual secrecy of the national security state.

This is, as I have said before, a concern that transcends narrow political biases, that is properly shared by sane people on all sides of the political spectrum, and should be a uniting force for corrective action.

It was only a few days ago that victims of Nazi medical experiments were granted another round of compensation from the European Union, some 60 years after the fall of the Nazi regime. A few thousand Euros, too little, too late by over half a century.

I can assure you, though, that when those heinous experiments were being conducted, there were all sorts of people around the world who heard rumor of them and said 'No, no, the Nazis are a bad lot but they're not THAT bad, after all they are only men, not devils.'

I agree with your point about human nature.
I like your writing.

You asked, wouldn't they want an incapacitant that acted immediately? That's a very good question.

IMO, the military want different agents for different jobs. There will be occasions when they want an agent that incapacitates dramatically and immediately, and the declassified documents on the www.sunshine-project.org speak in detail about that kind of thing.

But on other occasions, they may actually prefer something that incapacitates some time after dispersal of the agent. This latter would be ideal if they were hoping the pathogen would spread massively through the target population by droplet spread (coughing etc). If the germ acted immediately in a very dramatic way, the enemy's doctors would arrange for isolation procedures, areas would be quarantined off, etc etc. An infection that had a two-week incubation period or a mild onset would not alert them in that way.

However, biowarfaremen might want that delay too (or a longer one) if they had implanted infected ticks into a target area. This would allow a certain time period for the infection to spread into the local eco-system, before doctors and scientists realised that a)there was an outbreak of a serious incapacitating disease, and b)it was a man-made epidemic and c)it was tick-borne.

Remember, by the time Polly Murray and her neighbours realised something was very wrong, birds may have spread the strain(s) of Bb concerned all over the country and to other countries too.

Further, a pathogen that incapacitated some people soon after they came into contact with it, while others came down with incapacitating symptoms some months later, would tend to confuse medical staff pretty effectively. (Just look at how confused most docs are when faced with Lyme, and that's in a situation where they **already know** the tick-bite connection, and with accurate information available if they cared to look for it, with IlADS guidelines etc often shoved under their noses these days by the patient.

Add to that a huge range of different symptoms, with many of the patterns mimicking known (but incurable and incapacitating) diseases like MS, ALS, rheumatoid arthritis, schizophrenia, etc etc - that might be a wise choice from the point of view of a biowarfareman without moral qualms about crippling civilians. (And frankly, I don't think offensive biowarfaremen are the kind who have those qualms - they think it's sissy.)

That's one scenario - there are also many others, and many different reasons why the military might want to control the flow if information about TBD and spin it to make it seem there was no epidemic of an incapacitating disease. (Just an unconnected rise in MS cases, ADD, Parkinsons etc and a mass outbreak of public hysteria and people all over the world imagining they are incapacitated with the same set of symptoms as each other : (

You asked, wouldn't they want an incapacitant that acted immediately? That's a very good question.

IMO, the military want different agents for different jobs. There will be occasions when they want an agent that incapacitates dramatically and immediately, and the declassified documents on the www.sunshine-project.org speak in detail about that kind of thing.

But on other occasions, they may actually prefer something that incapacitates some time after dispersal of the agent. This latter would be ideal if they were hoping the pathogen would spread massively through the target population by droplet spread (coughing etc). If the germ acted immediately in a very dramatic way, the enemy's doctors would arrange for isolation procedures, areas would be quarantined off, etc etc. An infection that had a two-week incubation period or a mild onset would not alert them in that way.

However, biowarfaremen might want that delay too (or a longer one) if they had implanted infected ticks into a target area. This would allow a certain time period for the infection to spread into the local eco-system, before doctors and scientists realised that a)there was an outbreak of a serious incapacitating disease, and b)it was a man-made epidemic and c)it was tick-borne.

Remember, by the time Polly Murray and her neighbours realised something was very wrong, birds may have spread the strain(s) of Bb concerned all over the country and to other countries too.

Further, a pathogen that incapacitated some people soon after they came into contact with it, while others came down with incapacitating symptoms some months later, would tend to confuse medical staff pretty effectively. (Just look at how confused most docs are when faced with Lyme, and that's in a situation where they **already know** the tick-bite connection, and with accurate information available if they cared to look for it, with IlADS guidelines etc often shoved under their noses these days by the patient.

Add to that a huge range of different symptoms, with many of the patterns mimicking known (but incurable and incapacitating) diseases like MS, ALS, rheumatoid arthritis, schizophrenia, etc etc - that might be a wise choice from the point of view of a biowarfareman without moral qualms about crippling civilians. (And frankly, I don't think offensive biowarfaremen are the kind who have those qualms - they think it's sissy.)

That's one scenario - there are also many others, and many different reasons why the military might want to control the flow if information about TBD and spin it to make it seem there was no epidemic of an incapacitating disease. (Just an unconnected rise in MS cases, ADD, Parkinsons etc and a mass outbreak of public hysteria and people all over the world imagining they are incapacitated with the same set of symptoms as each other : (

You asked, wouldn't they want an incapacitant that acted immediately? That's a very good question.

IMO, the military want different agents for different jobs. There will be occasions when they want an agent that incapacitates dramatically and immediately, and the declassified documents on the www.sunshine-project.org speak in detail about that kind of thing.

But on other occasions, they may actually prefer something that incapacitates some time after dispersal of the agent. This latter would be ideal if they were hoping the pathogen would spread massively through the target population by droplet spread (coughing etc). If the germ acted immediately in a very dramatic way, the enemy's doctors would arrange for isolation procedures, areas would be quarantined off, etc etc. An infection that had a two-week incubation period or a mild onset would not alert them in that way.

However, biowarfaremen might want that delay too (or a longer one) if they had implanted infected ticks into a target area. This would allow a certain time period for the infection to spread into the local eco-system, before doctors and scientists realised that a)there was an outbreak of a serious incapacitating disease, and b)it was a man-made epidemic and c)it was tick-borne.

Remember, by the time Polly Murray and her neighbours realised something was very wrong, birds may have spread the strain(s) of Bb concerned all over the country and to other countries too.

Further, a pathogen that incapacitated some people soon after they came into contact with it, while others came down with incapacitating symptoms some months later, would tend to confuse medical staff pretty effectively. (Just look at how confused most docs are when faced with Lyme, and that's in a situation where they **already know** the tick-bite connection, and with accurate information available if they cared to look for it, with IlADS guidelines etc often shoved under their noses these days by the patient.

Add to that a huge range of different symptoms, with many of the patterns mimicking known (but incurable and incapacitating) diseases like MS, ALS, rheumatoid arthritis, schizophrenia, etc etc - that might be a wise choice from the point of view of a biowarfareman without moral qualms about crippling civilians. (And frankly, I don't think offensive biowarfaremen are the kind who have those qualms - they think it's sissy.)

That's just one scenario - there are also many others, and many different reasons why the military might want to control the flow if information about TBD and spin it to make it seem there was no epidemic of an incapacitating disease. (Just an unconnected rise in MS cases, ADD, Parkinsons etc and a mass outbreak of public hysteria and people all over the world imagining they are incapacitated with the same set of symptoms as each other

All opponenets to Hitler were now labeled "terrorists", laws were passed quickly suspending civil liberties, and the rest is history. History has shown that Hitler's own minions set the Rheichstag fire, as it created the event to enrage the populace into utter revolt against Hitler's opposition.

Does this scenario sound vaguely familiar ?

History has shown that governments may go to any extreme to consolidate/preserve power, if left unfettered.

The US government has been successfully sued for exposing an unwitting population to radiation, psychotropic drugs, dangerous chemical exposure, and a host of other evils. This is well documentated proven fact, aired in a court of law.

To think that for one minute the government would hesitate to experiment with ticks, and horrific pathogens, defies logic.

What are the odds that Plum Island and Lyme, CT. are in such close proximity, and the first major outbreak of a virulent strain of Bb is recorded there ? Coincidence ?

Does it benefit our cause to get decent awareness and treatment of lyme to implicate Plum Island?

Anything that's proven to be true, helps our cause. Wherever the chips may fall, so be it.

The fact that the Steere camp is purposely downplaying lyme severity, and encouraging poor diagnostic techniques, only reinforces the case, that these people have something to hide. It's more than mere bruised ego's these folks are afraid of, by being proven wrong.

You see, if realising that lyme is a long term, severe, debilitating disease, and difficult to treat, someone is going to ask why that is so ?

When that question is finally asked and scientifically investigated, where does it lead back to ? That's precisely why in my estimation, they have to fight so vigorously now, so that question can never be asked.

However, it's inevitable, and the truth will come out. Our LLMD said as much, when he stated, that it's like trying to put toothpaste back in the tube. As more become infected, more awareness is raised, and the demand for treatment becomes louder. It's self-perpetuating, and light will be shown upon it.

serially cultured laboratory strains are also not a good way of saving the evidence...they lose so much genetic information in passaging it's useless.

quote:

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Originally posted by NP40:
Hitler was consolidating his power in pre-war Germany, but he still had opposition. Suddenly, the German Rheichstag [German Congress] burst into flames one evening. The arsonists blamed immediately were the opposition to Hitler's goals.

All opponenets to Hitler were now labeled "terrorists", laws were passed quickly suspending civil liberties, and the rest is history. History has shown that Hitler's own minions set the Rheichstag fire, as it created the event to enrage the populace into utter revolt against Hitler's opposition.

Does this scenario sound vaguely familiar ?

History has shown that governments may go to any extreme to consolidate/preserve power, if left unfettered.

The US government has been successfully sued for exposing an unwitting population to radiation, psychotropic drugs, dangerous chemical exposure, and a host of other evils. This is well documentated proven fact, aired in a court of law.

To think that for one minute the government would hesitate to experiment with ticks, and horrific pathogens, defies logic.

What are the odds that Plum Island and Lyme, CT. are in such close proximity, and the first major outbreak of a virulent strain of Bb is recorded there ? Coincidence ?

Does it benefit our cause to get decent awareness and treatment of lyme to implicate Plum Island?

Anything that's proven to be true, helps our cause. Wherever the chips may fall, so be it.

The fact that the Steere camp is purposely downplaying lyme severity, and encouraging poor diagnostic techniques, only reinforces the case, that these people have something to hide. It's more than mere bruised ego's these folks are afraid of, by being proven wrong.

You see, if realising that lyme is a long term, severe, debilitating disease, and difficult to treat, someone is going to ask why that is so ?

When that question is finally asked and scientifically investigated, where does it lead back to ? That's precisely why in my estimation, they have to fight so vigorously now, so that question can never be asked.

However, it's inevitable, and the truth will come out. Our LLMD said as much, when he stated, that it's like trying to put toothpaste back in the tube. As more become infected, more awareness is raised, and the demand for treatment becomes louder. It's self-perpetuating, and light will be shown upon it.

[This message has been edited by NP40 (edited 08 April 2005).]

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the US cannot be defeated in a conventional way. And nuclear warfare just results in a world wide holocaust.

the US will fall by being eaten away from the inside.

perhaps the US was experimenting on just this sort of warfare, thinking of disabling the soviets, and it backfired and we infected ourselves.

now let me ask you a question. a new disease pops up at the height of the cold war in the most densely populated part of the country. Don't you think that there have been investigations into this outbreak beyond steere?

quote:

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Originally posted by CaliforniaLyme:
The only Lyme conspiracies I believe in are those talked about by Attorney General of CT Richard Blumenthal re insurance industry and those arisen by ignorance of people like STeere and perpetuated by perhaps more than simply ignorance... People like McSweegan make me wonder sometimes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But as to origins, the LAST thing we need as patient reps or advocates is to bring in conspiracy theories!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The best paper re Bb as far as infecting human population is, because it was long long ago- and ALSO because it was published in a field unconcerned with Lyme politics-
is- Bb from the skeletal remains of a prehistoric swampified childs body:

1: Am J Phys Anthropol. 1998 Jun;106(2):229-48. Related Articles, Links

Prehistoric juvenile rheumatoid arthritis in a precontact Louisiana native population reconsidered.

Lewis BA.

Department of Geography and Anthropology, Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge, USA. [email protected]

Descriptions of skeletal pathological conditions evident in the prehistoric Tchefuncte adolescent 16ST1-14883b are clarified. The basis is reaffirmed for assigning to the described pathological conditions a diagnostic perspective of juvenile rheumatoid arthritis or juvenile Lyme disease--a disease that mimics juvenile rheumatoid arthritis in its arthritic presentation--rather than of assigning them as representative of juvenile onset ankylosing spondylitis or other juvenile spondyloarthropathies. A hypothesis (Lewis [1994] Am. J. Phys. Anthropol. 93:455-475) is restated that 1) the spirochete Borrelia burgdorferi was the infectious agent responsible for prevalence of adult rheumatoid arthritis in prehistoric southeastern Native American populations, 2) that B. burgdorferi is a possible cause of the arthritis evident in individual 16ST1-14883b, and 3) that antibodies to B. burgdorferi provided partial immunity to the related spirochete Treponema pallidum for the 16ST1 precontact Tchefuncte population from Louisiana, protecting them from severe treponemal response. Given the probable widespread existence of Ixodid tick vectors for B. burgdorferi in prehistoric North America, coupled with the existence of treponematosis, it follows that the transition of Native American hunting-gathering economies to more sedentary economies would predictably be linked to an increased incidence of treponematosis due to the loss of benefits of the above-stated partial immunity. In other words, as prehistoric Native American exposure to tick vectors for B. burgdorferi decreased, susceptibility to treponematosis increased. Inferences regarding biological controls interacting with and influencing prehistoric Native American migration patterns are suggested from the link of B. burgdorferi to an Ixodid tick common to northeast Asia.

Publication Types:
Historical Article

PMID: 9637186 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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He was thretoned by a man in army fatigues and got rid of the papers,in the basement of Mayo clinic.

It was simply an accident lyme got loose, the ticks were droped from an airplane onto plumb island for an expirenment and got carried away by sea birds before they sprayed the island.

My overview is as follows:

Yes spirochetes are ancient. Yes borrelia existed a long time ago. However my hunch is that it was far less virulent. It was not causing ALS, lupus, etc. Also, it was not as commonly part of a soup of pathogens, it seems to me babesia is about as virulent.

Sarah (CaliforniaLyme) good to see you and hear that your life is going so well...consider that you took 9 months of mepron...why doesn't malaria require the same?

One must ask why these pathogens are so difficult to eradicate, more so than tuberculosis or malaria, two big killers worldwide.

Once bioweaponized for greater virulence--easier adhesion, easier cell penetration, or splice in viral fragments, or WHO KNOWS what they did...and through carelessness the stuff gets out (there is such an obvious record of accidents at all biowarfare facilities, whether Ken Alibek's work in Moscow where the anthrax got all through the lab, or the recent incident with Klempner's lab and tularemia) that one doesn't have to have much imagination to realize that the ticks got out. Especially if at Plum Island for instance, they were in outdoor colonies and there was so much wildlife on the island. But even without that, without stringent safety measures which seem disregarded at most labs, the stuff can get out. Nature is very inventive, even when tampered with to be more virulent, microbes will figure out a way to find a host.

Then, bacteria exchange genes. So you get contamination of the naturally occuring pathogens. THen you add in as I've said before, global warming, our exodus into the suburbn and then exurban woods, and our unwillinngess to kill bambi while making extinct all bambi's alpha predators (we used to have 500,000 deer in this country now we have 25 million). So you have conditions for an epidemic, and multiple tickbites, unbeknownst to the human host, with multiple pathogens each time. And there is your recipe for chronic debilitating illness.

One of my suspicions centers more on the vaccine. We know Osp-C is expressed in the human not Osp-A (temperature related). Four years ago or more, early in my lyme infection, I spoke to the makers of an Osp-C vaccine who said it had essentially been squelched by the powers that be who wanted the Osp-A (Steere's). The Osp-A either reactivated latent disease or cause dautoimmune disease who knows, but it was pulled from the marekt. But why not use an Osp-C? It might even help those already infected by alerting the immune system (sort of like cancer vaccines). No Osp-C vaccine was ever made, at least not yet.

What's that about? I'd rather focus on THAT story. Especially now when pharmas are under attack for good reason.

Usually the answer in all this is money and power. Why did they use cheaper monkeys to make polio vaccine--kidneys contaminated with sv-40? Because it was cheaper! Even tho they had warnings at the time about the risk.

And for anyone who has immersed themselves in the military-industrial complex they slowly get "infected" with a worldview that necessarily lacks compassion and sees all humans as pawns in a larger "heroic" battle to "protect" interests at home...etc etc...when you read Lab257, whatever its accuracies and inaccuracies, one strong impression you come away with is those who run this kind of research are more than complacent, they are playing God, and a nasty God at that. They like the power to unleash forces stronger than nature herself made and they not only don't care if ordinary folk are harmed, they even enjoy it. Sounds sick but you can't work in certain fields and stay a heart-centered humanistic person. Consider all the gulf war vets sick from the experimental anthrax vaccine and depleted uranium. The government responsible for that DOES NOT CARE. President Bush will stop his vacation for a brain-dead lady on life support for 15 years, basically to please his right wing constituency, while sending healthy young men to their deaths for dubious oil interests. (Maybe we will get more democracy in the middle east and thats good but thats not why we did it). He will say the Pope was morally clear, when the Pope himself refused the feeding tube that Bush wanted to keep Terry Schiavo on. This may sound like I'm wandering far afield but the point is, the human life doesn't matter--power does, and retaining power.

All of which adds up to once again, my saying that finding a cure for those who have to take antibiotics for years, is a better idea. Even Sarah (CaliforniaLyme) who has regaiend most of her life--which is amazing--had to go through a couple years of drug hell and is still on antibiotics.

People are on antibiotics for tuberculosis for years sometimes- AND people DO stay on treatment for malaria for years sometimes too!! That is where tonic water came from, with quinnine in it, because people found drinking a little daily tonic kept them from relapsing!!! I lived in India when I was little and know quite a bit about malaria because I have had it!
What is interesting is that malaria can have a tissue stage which most people don't know!!

Anywayz, lots of diseases require long-term treatment or treatment for the rest of ones life! My husband- Ed, bless him, he is a sweetie- is diabetic and he will have to take insulin every day the rest of his life!

I want to thank Paisley for her post, which I think cuts to the core of what all this means to us as patients.

And Maddog gets big points for saying much more concisely what I meant about high-tech sophistication married to bureaucratic incompetence.

Oxygenbabe demonstrates what had seemed obvious to me, that when we talk about Plum Island it isn't that OR global warming, expanding deer populations, etc, they aren't competing explanations.

This disease exacts a tragic price from many of us here, who are among the sickest of the sick. Very often in history those who are afflicted see things that others do not, act when others lack the determination to do so, and bring our common life back in contact with realities it can no longer afford to ignore.

It's a more subtle and voluntary business than the canary in the coal mine, but there is a crude analogy there.

This type of discussion is not how I spend all my time. I have reason to doubt how many more periods of lucidity my life has left in it. I spend some of those hours trying to attend to my soul, and give thanks to the souls that have touched mine in important ways. I spend some of them writing poems or daydreaming. I reserve a portion for trying to understand what this wretched epidemic can tell me about the world I live in and what it will take to assure its habitability for my younger friends and family.

I can't walk unassisted, or drive, or safely engage in much more exercise than controlled breathing and (very) gentle stretching. On a good day, those limits apply. So I have time. And for some of that time, I have a mind that can still make out patterns of meaning and respond to them.

I introduce this personal note because everyone who takes the Plum Island connection seriously has been tarred with a certain brush, painted as some kind of singularly obsessed, paranoid, hysterical freak.

quote:

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Originally posted by MADDOG:
Hi,I actually know a person who 15 years ago was given secret papers explaining the plum island accidient.

He was thretoned by a man in army fatigues and got rid of the papers,in the basement of Mayo clinic.

It was simply an accident lyme got loose, the ticks were droped from an airplane onto plumb island for an expirenment and got carried away by sea birds before they sprayed the island.

Simply done by people educated beyond their intellegence. MADDOG

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see it's more complicated than just saying "look at this stretch of 16S RNA, this is Bb"

unless someone was miraculously able to get a total DNA sequence of the organism including telomeric DNA, you can't place much credence in these reports.

quote:

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Originally posted by CaliforniaLyme:
ALigondo, an LLMD referenced that in a lecture who had read the full paper and said they had shown it. He is a good one and so I have always trusted that assertion. Maybe I am wrong to do so. But they also found Bb in ticks in ancient amber so it has been around for a long long long time!

People are on antibiotics for tuberculosis for years sometimes- AND people DO stay on treatment for malaria for years sometimes too!! That is where tonic water came from, with quinnine in it, because people found drinking a little daily tonic kept them from relapsing!!! I lived in India when I was little and know quite a bit about malaria because I have had it!
What is interesting is that malaria can have a tissue stage which most people don't know!!

Anywayz, lots of diseases require long-term treatment or treatment for the rest of ones life! My husband- Ed, bless him, he is a sweetie- is diabetic and he will have to take insulin every day the rest of his life!

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Thanks for the kudos. Sad that I don't even remember what I said. I'll have to back track.

I wanted to share an interersting story. It's kind of weird, but I don't believe in coicidences anymore.

My children and I were coming back from a drs. appt. I didn't want to make dinner and stopped by Dairy Queen. Not the finest dining. I had a lot of other options at that intersection and still can't figure out why I stopped there for dinner.

At one point I decided to get a sundae. I asked the girl at the register what the purple band (silicone wrist band) stood for. She said REMEMBER. She hesistated, but then she said her sister had just died. I said I was sorry for her loss.

Then I asked her what the black one stood for. She said that one said CHANGE THE WORLD. I said, "that's cool" and walked away. Then she yelled to us, hey what are the green ones for. I said, Lyme Disease. Her jaw dropped and she couldn't speak.

She finally shared that her sister had died because of lyme disease. Then my jaw dropped and I couldn't speak. She had taken her life. She was in the army - the family thinks that she got it on the army base, but basically wasn't doing anything to help her get better.

She had been travelling the country trying to get answers, until she couldn't take it anymore.

I said that she paid a heavy price for this disease, asked for her name and told her that if I ever got my book done, I would dedicate it to her memory. Then my son said, "do you want my green bracelet?" She couldn't speak to us any longer because she couldn't stop crying.

If anyone else has information as sensitive as that, please hang on to it, don't share it in an open forum. I believe there is enough out there just in the public domain for us to make our case, no one should put themselves at risk.

In England there are rumours that a PhD student who was investigating the public health risk of Lyme, and died suddenly of a heart attack at age 27, did not die a natural death.

I am not saying this to sow fear, I just want people to be careful what they say in public.

Lisa

quote:

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Originally posted by MADDOG:
Hi,I actually know a person who 15 years ago was given secret papers explaining the plum island accidient.

He was thretoned by a man in army fatigues and got rid of the papers,in the basement of Mayo clinic.

It was simply an accident lyme got loose, the ticks were droped from an airplane onto plumb island for an expirenment and got carried away by sea birds before they sprayed the island.

Simply done by people educated beyond their intellegence. MADDOG

---

In my opinion, conspiracy and cover-up should be a given at this point. The more difficult question is what is their motivation. Is it a cover-up of an accident or experiment that escaped their control? If so, one would think they would do everything they could to prevent or at least limit new chronic cases by aggressively advocating proper early diagnosis and treatment. In this way, they would be limiting further spread of the disease. Instead they continue to be a deliberate obstacle to proper diagnosis and treatment. Could it be that these co-conspirators want the disease to spread? Sure looks like it. Why? My best guess is that these people are all part of a conspiracy to weaken the US population over time. The Nazis experimented with tick borne diseases for this reason. They wanted to take over the world and felt this was an effective way to weaken some of their enemies from within.

In the same way, we could be dealing with another totalitarian regime which has the U.S. in their long term sights. Perhaps Russia or China or both. I often hear Lyme folks discussing conspiracy in terms of our own government doing this to its own citizens. Perhaps but much more likely IMO is that the communists have infiltrated us long ago and have people in powerful places where they can control things, ie the CDC & NIH & state health departments along with many other places. They need to be in positions of authority so they can control the agenda. Many innocent, elected officials are being sold a bill of goods and help perpetuate the plan without realizing they are part of a conspiracy. We are a wide open country and the communists espionage tactics are legendary so IMO it is unrealistic to think they haven't infiltrated our government.

You see, in those days, there was no need to do this covertly, as the US had not yet sigend any international treaties outlawing it, as happened in 1972.

It's not accurate to say that Allen Steere did not do a 180 deg. turn in the 1980's. If you examine the record, you can see that **from the very beginning** his conduct was extremely suspicious. Despite the fact that he clearly was aware of the many decades of European literature on the subject, as well as more recent news regarding the efficacy of penicillin, he continued to insist that Lyme was probably viral, thus blocking treatment for all.

It's worth remembering that the rheumatologist whom Polly Murray was originally scheduled to see when she first raised the alarm with the Connecticut health department was pulled at the last minute by Dr Snydman, also of the Epidemic Intelligence Service, who ensured she would see Steere instead.

Steere was thus given the mantle for "discovering" Lyme disease, and the rest is tragic history.

The Epidemic Intelligence Service (EIS) is a programme of the CDC. It is not a minor programme. The elite ID personnel who graduate from the EIS are then encouraged to take up positions in strategically important parts of the health infrastructure all over the country. Thus they become chief epidemiologists, get on the editorial boards of top medical journals, gain important positions in the mass media (the rabidly anti-Lymie Altman of the NY Times is a good example)etc..

As an elite unit of basically biowarfare-trained specialists, they wield huge power in the political structure. If they feel a the work of a particular doctor or scientist is getting in the way of military goals, they can ensure that person is either intimidated into silence, has his license to practise removed/reputation trashed, or worse.

Unless of course, large numbers of patients rally to protect the individual concerned (eg Dr Burrascano).

They operate as a team and can ensure that, if deemed necessary for national "security", information on any disease can be spun in a co-ordinated manner, and action taken to silence those who interfere with those "security" goals.

Remember, the goals and priorities of a military doc may be very different from a civilian doc following the Hippocratic oath.

Not only Steere and Snydman, but CDC Lyme officials (as well as CDC directors) and in general, a hugely disproportionate number of the Steere camp just "happen" to be EIS members or known biowarfare experts.

That the poster Ticktox has recognised all this is good. It is after all, all documented fact in the public domain. However, Ticktox then parts company with established evidence by wandering off into a ridiculous and bizarre theory about communists controlling America and trying to weaken its population with chronic infectious diseases.

Where is your evidence for this nonsense, (other than possibly among the pages of Mein Kampf?) Where is the slightest shred of evidence that the US government and military are controlled by "communists"?

A person could reasonably argue that Lyme was developed as a bioweapon by the Soviet Union, and that the outbreak in Connecticut in the 70's was a deliberate release by them . But we are now in 2005, 14 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall. There is no more Soviet Union, and Russia (in case you had not noticed) is no longer a Communist country.

It does no service to anyone when you bring these bizarre fantasies into a field where those of us who genuinely want to expose the Lyme cover-up for what it is, based on solid evidence painstakingly gathered, already face scoen and disbelief on the basis that we are plugging baseless "conpiracy theories".

It will not be hard for us to prove that the Lyme cover-up is a deliberate cover-up by the US and other NATO governments, via the medium of the Steere camp, assisted by huge input from those industries with a financial stake in the matter (insurance, vaccine/biotech etc).

There is no need to then go on to say that because we have evidence of that, this then indicates that western governments are controlled by communists, Jews, Blacks, gays, or greem lizards from outer space. It doesn't, no more than the fact that the sky is blue "proves" that the moon is made of cheese.

If you want to genuinely advance the expose, and hopefully bring down this coverup so that patients can finally get proper recognition and treatment of Lyme disease, please take care that you present credible evidence for your statements, and at least, very high quality circumstantial evidence to support your theories.

Bizarre neo-McCarthyite musings about Communists controlling America are not evidence, and considering the Soviet bloc is all but disappeared for over a decade - just ridiculous.

Lisa

quote:

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Originally posted by ticktox:

But how do you explain Steere doing a 180. In the early 80's he sounded just like our LLMDs. He didn't get stupid all of a sudden. Maybe a gun to the head or some threat to his family. Who knows. .........In the same way, we could be dealing with another totalitarian regime which has the U.S. in their long term sights. Perhaps Russia or China or both. I often hear Lyme folks discussing conspiracy in terms of our own government doing this to its own citizens. Perhaps but much more likely IMO is that the communists have infiltrated us long ago and have people in powerful places where they can control things, ie the CDC & NIH & state health departments along with many other places. They need to be in positions of authority so they can control the agenda. Many innocent, elected officials are being sold a bill of goods and help perpetuate the plan without realizing they are part of a conspiracy. We are a wide open country and the communists espionage tactics are legendary so IMO it is unrealistic to think they haven't infiltrated our government.

I am sure many will disagree and consider this craziness or silliness but I think it ties up many of the conflicting questions that we see throughout this Lyme puzzle. Most of us who think in terms of a conspiracy don't want to believe it, but the evidence is there if you look.

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I still don't know what it is you want to do. How/where do you want to gather evidence? Maybe lymenet isn't the best place for this discussion (tho it drew me temporarily back to lymenet). Meanwhile people are suffering so something has to be done. I met a lady the other day who claims she has ALS but 200 hyperbaric treatments greatly improved her. She also mentioned her daughter has chronic lyme. So I looked at her and said, you don't have ALS< hyperbaric doesn't improve ALS, but it does improve lyme. And lyme is sometimes misdiagnosed as ALS. So you live on the east coast and your daughter has chronic lyme, well guess what, so do you.

LLMD News Flash: UV blocking Tinfoil prescribed for light sensitive Lyme patients.

In the Local News: Noob eats Tinfoil as dietary supplement as precaution.

----------------------------------------------

Who has the most to gain today? Pharmaceutical Companies.
Medical Professionals.

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The fact that the tick has been used for vector transmission is a documented fact during wartime, but this does not explain what we all know is true while seeking treatment today..............

----------------------------------------------

I would really like to know what the physicians are discussing about Lyme in their private forums. Perhaps someone could ask a LLMD about this? Certainly they would know.

quote:

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Originally posted by daystar1952:
....However I do believe that there is a so called communist influence. If one looks at the planks of the communist manifesto you will see much of it taking place right here, right now.
...

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I haven't read the communist manifesto, but I do have a basic idea that it is about having a revolution, arming a Red Army, and overthrowing capitalism. No, I do not see that that is happening here in the west at all.

On the contrary, capitalism seems to be very much alive and well to me.

Especially so in Lyme medicine, where length of treatment is being determined by the profit needs of insurance companies, and the greed of Glaxo SmithKline to make a huge killing on a Lyme vaccine caused thousands of serious adverse events and contributed to the catastrophic Dressler-Steere criteria being imposed on us.

That was not caused by "communists", but by multi-national companies - American, British etc. Last time I looked, multi-national companies were not very much into having a red revolution and overthrowing capitalism. Let's be real here.

You talk about "they - whoever they may be". That's ridiculous. If we are going to make accusations, we have to say who "they" are.

I have said for well over a year who I think "they" are - the Steere camp, with the full backing of our governments, our military and the special support of certain multi-nationals most concerned (insurance, vaccine manufacturers etc.) But I have provided evidence for what I've said.

You, on the other hand are raising crazy theories about Communists controlling America, and saying this explains the Steere camp fraud. You provide no evidence for this, other than that Gorbachev visited the US a lot (of course he did, because he was backed by the US as the man who would bring perestroika).

With the Steere camp swine working 24/7 to characterise Lyme patients in general and Lyme **activists** in particular as "crazy", the type of thing you are saying is going to hand them what they want on a plate.

As for patriots - I'm sorry. You don't understand patriotism very well. The EIS men who mess around with virulence factors and engineer new and more horrific ways of wiping out millions of men, women and children (or incapacitating them), are extremely patriotic.

They do the horrific work they do IN THE NAME OF PATRIOTISM , in the name of their country (and that applies to any army of any country, engaged in biowarfare or other WMD). They do it in the name of protecting American/British/Swedish etc families.

Everyone has the right to defend their family. No one has the right to wipe out millions of other families, and call that defense.

For many of the Steere camp, particularly those in elite units like the EIS, patriotism is far more important than money, in motivating them to do what they do. But their concept of patriotism comes out of a mind-set that says "we must have the most powerful, horrific weapons, as the only good defense is offense. NOTHING must get in the way of that goal."

So if five million people, citizens of their own country, come down with a terrible disabling disease, and to recognise them as having it, and treat them, interferes with previously determined military goals, or risks exposing militarily sensitive issues, they would certainly choose to throw the five million down the toilet, rather than disturb the patriotic goals.

And indeed if five million of their own countrymen came down with an instantly fatal disease, but treating them and saving their lives risked compromising a goal, (for example, if revealing an antimicrobial that could cure would also destroy any prospect of the military ever deploying that agent), then they might well choose to leave the five million to die.

It's called "collateral damage".

They would do it, and in their minds it would be patriotic, because it would be defending the other hundreds of millions still alive.

That's pragmatism. That's how military minds work. But if you - or your children - happen to be one of the five million...God help you.