These are Quest reults. Can anyone give me any information on this. I just had bloodwork done that went to Igenex.
[This message has been edited by coach (edited 31 August 2005).]
[ 07. September 2005, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: coach ]
Posted by jloisu (Member # 7538) on :
As far as test results go, wait for the IgeneX results, the Quest results aren't worth your time (or your blood for that matter). I tested negative multiple times w/Quest. If you want to analyze what you have, I believe that the 30 kDa band is specific for lyme, but I'm not the best person to ask...Lymetoo, are you out there?
As far as the rest goes, if you think you have Lyme, hopefully the Dr. that is testing you is a LLMD. If not, post on here and someone will help you find one, but I would get that ball rolling as the IgeneX results take 2-3 weeks.
Best wishes,
jloisu
[This message has been edited by jloisu (edited 31 August 2005).]
[This message has been edited by jloisu (edited 31 August 2005).]
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Hi coach....yep, Quest is pathetic for lyme testing.
According to the following link, band 30 is "possibly a variant of outer surface protein A." [not Lyme-specific]
Band 60...?? never heard of it
This is a very informative link on interpreting the Western Blot. Read it now, but read it again when your "real test" comes back!!
------------------ Do not take anything I say as medical advice. I am not a doctor, but I DID stay at a Holiday Inn Express! oops! Lymetutu
Posted by groovy2 (Member # 6304) on :
Hi Coach
I just got my test results back from Igenix today-- Results were indeterminet--
I definatilly have lyme-- I had perfect Lyme bruse on back of my leg 20 years ago-- I have been sick ever sence-- I have or have had almost every symptom -- I think I may also have Babs-- test came back indeterminate also--
If the test could not find Lyme in my blood--It sucks perty bad--
I have a friend who used to preform these tests--Very compulcated-- many steps--I can see why they dont work---
Do not use test to rule out lyme --only to conferm--Jay--
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Jay, which bands were positive? That's the important thing.
------------------ Do not take anything I say as medical advice. I am not a doctor, but I DID stay at a Holiday Inn Express! oops! Lymetutu
Posted by jloisu (Member # 7538) on :
Jay,
Don't throw out the IGeneX test quite yet. It is the best lab we have for doing the Western Blot. I came back indeterminate too, but this is based on the CDC screening standards set up a long time ago to track epidemiology and not for diagnostic purposes.
As Lymetoo says, the bands that are positive and or indeterminate make a big difference.
But yes, there are many reasons why the WB can be inaccurate....too many to even list, from timing of the test, to test procedures, to antibody levels, to lyme changing forms like the cyst form, to antibody-antigen complexes formed when the antibody finds the lyme and binds to it like a lock and key. Then the test looking for the antibody doesn't see many if any of them because of all of the antigens (lyme) floating around binding to the antibodies...many other reasons....
BUT the point is LYME IS A CLINICAL DIAGNOSIS. The testing is merely a piece of the puzzle to support the diagnosis made by a qualified LLMD.
Best wishes,
jloisu
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
30 + = According to CDC's Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report (MMWR) 1995; 44 (31):590-591, an IgM immunoblot is considered positive if two of the following three bands are present:
24 kDa (OspC)* 39 kDa (BmpA) 41 kDa (Fla)
An IgG immunoblot is considered positive if five of the following 10 bands are present:
Where are all the rest of the bands on the IGM? Quest is nortorious for NOT testing for all the bands.
I would not trust any Lyme test from Quest. Post your results from Igenex when you receive them.
Lisi
Posted by coach (Member # 7539) on :
that is all they tested. I will post the Igenex results when I get them.
Posted by BJG (Member # 4723) on :
Hi A site that I found was helpful is from Dr Charles Ray Jones.
HE states that there are 9 known Bb genuus specie specific.
He staes that if you have ONE of these bands pos you have Bb-Lyme.
they are 18, 23, 30, 34, 37, 39, 83, 93
Good Luck Peace, B
Posted by bg (Member # 46416) on :
Call your blood lab asking them to CALL IGENEX and request they FAX your results as well as MAIL the results to you.
Mine were lost for 5 wks!
bettyg, Iowa
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
REASONS WHY A SERONEGATIVE TEST RESULT MIGHT OCCUR
1. Recent infection before immune response 2. Antibodies are in immune complexes 3. Spirochete encapsulated by host tissue (i.e. lymphocytic cell walls) 4. Spirochetes are deep in host tissue 5. Only blebs in body fluid; no whole organisms needed for PCR 6. No spirochetes in body fluid on day of test 7. Genetic heterogeneity (300 strains in U.S.) 8. Antigenic variability 9. Surface antigens change with temperature 10.Utilization of host protease instead of microbial protease 11.Spirochete in dormancy phase 12.Recent antibiotic treatment 13.Recent anti-inflammatory treatment 14.Concomitant infection with babesia may cause immunosuppression 15.Other causes of immunosuppression 16.Lab with poor technical capability for Lyme disease 17.Lab tests not standardized for late stage disease 18.Lab tests labeled "for investigational use only" 19.CDC criteria is epidemiological, not a diagnostic criteria
------------------ Do not take anything I say as medical advice. I am not a doctor, but I DID stay at a Holiday Inn Express! oops! Lymetutu
Posted by coach (Member # 7539) on :
BJG, do have the site for Dr. Charles Ray Smith?
Posted by BugBit (Member # 7829) on :
I just got mone back from Igenex: I have been ill over 30 years, probably bitten in childhood. I am 49.
IgM Results:
18kDa IND 22kDa - 23-25kDa + 28kDa ++ 30kDa + 31kDa + 34kDa IND 37kDa - 39kDa + 41kDa + 45kda IND 58kDa IND 66kDa + 73kDa - 83kDa - 93kDa +
This is marked POSITIVE and the explanation of that is that my results meet both CDC and Igenex criteria. I shudder to think what the results might have been if my blood sample hadn't sat in the postoffice all weekend. My Duc's office didn't send it overnight. :-0 *Bit*
Posted by coach (Member # 7539) on :
BugBit, what type of symptoms are/were you having?
Posted by groovy2 (Member # 6304) on :
Hi all
the WB test has to be preformed perfectily to even get slightly reliable results- The test has many complucated steps
And even if test is preformed perfectly all the things Lymetoo listed come into play also.
My friend is writing a paper that explanes how the test is preformed-- and I will post it . I think you will be surprised how it is done -- I will give you a short discription- the termonaligy is not correct
Blood is seperated into differnt parts one part is used for test- A slide is made up with a thin film of a substance (subtrate) that is devided into sections(bands)
In each section(band) a substance that attracts certian things is placed- Each section is different-
Then the part of your blood that was seperated is placed on the bottom of the slide -
The slide is then tilted so that the things that are in the blood that test is looking for has to climb up the slide against gravity to each section--
To make the blood climb up the slide a eletric current is applied-
Then after a certian amount of time the slide are examened-dye is applyed to help see results on some tests--
The slide is examened by a med tech who inturpts results--
The tech has to inturped results because the test dose not give yes-no results--
The test dose not look for the germs- it looks for your bodies responce to the germs--
The amount of the stuff the med tech sees in each section(band) is what determins the test results-
The tech may not see anything in band and this would be( -- ) If tech sees alittle of the stuff it will be marked ( - ) If tech sees a little more it will be marked ( + ) Tech sees a even more it will be marked ( ++ ) and so on-
The tec may only look at certian bands
Keep in mind that the slide is being examened under a fairily high power microscope-- not a easy task
The procedure each lab uses is slightly differnt (Igenx-Quest ect)
And each lab also has its own critera for what equals a ( ++ ) ect.
Also each med tech is also going to inturpet tests differently --
The conditions in the lab have to be perfect threw out test-- Tempature- humidity- light ect- Im not sure but I think test takes several days to preform.
The only way the test can be preformed at price that we can afford is threw doing test in large numbers--so the med tech dose not get to spend much time on your test.
Also after you have been infected for awhile the effectivness of the test drops a bunch.
The WB test is also used to DX anthrax--Remember the anthrax letters- The government did not trust the test eather and gave Everyone large doses of ABX.
Aperantily the WB test can find some deseases fairly accuratilly but Lyme is not one of them--
I did find several good sites that explained how WB test is preformed in fairly plain english by googleing wester blot--I will see if I can find again and post--Jay--
Posted by bpeck (Member # 3235) on :
Coach:
Band 30 is OspA binding protein and is specific for Lyme. Band 66 is also specific for Lyme (and they say "not 60" to differentiate it from a heat shock protein.
While you tested overall negative on the Quest test - most Lyme Dr.s treat if you have symptoms and ANY specific bands...
What is very unusual is that you did not show antibodies to band 41, which is a non specific band (cross reactive with other spirochete bacteria- even mouth bacteria) but is almost always present as positive. You might have been just belwo the intensity cut - off level....
It'll be interesting to see your igenex results- they report the "inderterminant" bands- meaning you have antibodies - just not very many.
Barb
Posted by Mathias (Member # 5298) on :
Was the IgM for band 41 positive or negative?
Posted by coach (Member # 7539) on :
negative
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
This is what Dr C has to say about band 66
66: Heat shock protein. This is the second most common borrelia
As far as I know band 66 is *not* a heat shock protein - but rather an outer membrane protein of borrelia. It's just not strain specific. See reference 1 & 2
If you have more recent data showing 66 kDa isn't specific for borrelia, please post it.
Surface exposure and species specificity of an immunoreactive domain of a 66-kilodalton outer membrane protein (P66) of the Borrelia spp. that cause Lyme disease.
Ref 2 FEMS Microbiol Lett. 1995 Sep 1;131(2):139-45. Molecular analysis of a 66-kDa protein associated with the outer membrane of Lyme disease Borrelia.
Posted by Mathias (Member # 5298) on :
Some things on hsp 66 kDa:
------ Ensgraber, M., and M. Loos. 1992.
A 66-kilodalton heat shock protein of Salmonella typhimurium is responsible for binding of the bacterium to intestinal mucus. Infect. Immun. 60:3072-3078[Abstract].
----------------------
Cell Biochem. 1996 Oct;63(1):51-60. Related Articles, Links
Characterization of a new high-temperature-induced 66-kDa heat-shock protein, antigenically related to heat-shock protein 72.
Delpino A, Mileo AM, Lapenta V, Piselli P, Verdina A, Polenzani L.
Laboratory of Biophysics, Regina Elena Institute for Cancer Research, Rome, Italy.
M-14 human melanoma cells, following severe hyperthermic exposures, synthesized a heat-shock protein of 66 kDa (hsp 66), in addition to the major "classic" heat-shock proteins. This hsp 66 was not expressed following mild hyperthermic exposures sufficient to trigger the synthesis of the other heat-shock proteins. The induction of hsp 66 was observed also in Li human glioma cells treated at 45 degrees C for 20 min. By contrast, hsp 66 was not induced in seven other human cell lines (both melanoma and nonmelanoma) when they were subjected to the same hyperthermic treatment. Immunological recognition experiments showed that hsp 66 cross-reacted with the inducible hsp 72, but not with the constitutive hsp 73. The possibility that hsp 66 is a breakdown product of hsp 72 was ruled out by the fact that Poly(A)+ RNA extracted from cells treated at 45 degrees C for 20 min was able to direct the synthesis of hsp 66 (together with hsp 72) in a message-dependent rabbit reticulocyte lysate, as well as in microinjected Xenopus oocytes. By contrast, only the hsp 72 was expressed using Poly(A)+ RNA extracted from cells heated at 42 degrees C for 1 h. Affinity chromatography experiments on ATP-agarose showed that hsp 66 did not bind ATP in vitro. hsp 66 was localized both in the cytoplasm (cytosol, mitochondria, and microsome fraction) and in the nuclei of cells recovered from a severe heat shock: this intracellular distribution closely corresponded to that of hsp 72. The nuclear-associated hsp 66 was found to be tightly bound to nuclear structures and could not be extracted by incubation in ATP-containing buffer.
Posted by coach (Member # 7539) on :
I am a little confused. Is band 66 a outer membrane protein of borrelia or not?
Coach
Posted by bpeck (Member # 3235) on :
Mathias:
None of molecular weight proteins on a Lyme western Blot are heat shock proteins to my knowledge.
Check out the authors on this 1996 paper. This paper differentiates it from hsp66 you cite in the 1992 paper you noted.
If there was any way Gary Barbour could say a 9Lyme) protein was cross-reactive with a heat shock protein or close to the molecular weigh of one the body's own proteins (which would bolster their autoimmune or molecular mimicry theory) - beleive me he'd be screaming it from the roof-tops -
Barb
Infect Immun. 1996 Dec;64(12):5111-6.
Surface exposure and species specificity of an immunoreactive domain of a 66-kilodalton outer membrane protein (P66) of the Borrelia spp. that cause Lyme disease.
Bunikis J, Noppa L, Ostberg Y, Barbour AG, Bergstrom S.
Department of Microbiology, Umea University, Sweden.
A chromosomally encoded 66-kDa protein (P66) of Borrelia spp. that cause Lyme disease has previously been shown to be associated with the spirochetal outer membrane. A topological model of P66 predicts a surface-exposed fragment which links the N- and C-terminal intramembranous domains of the protein (J. Bunikis, L. Noppa, and S. Bergstrom, FEMS Microbiol. Lett. 131:139-145, 1995).
In the present study, an immunogenic determinant of P66 was identified by a comparison of the immunoreactivities of different fragments of P66 generated either by proteolytic treatment of intact spirochetes
or as recombinant proteins expressed in Escherichia coli.
The immune response to P66 during natural infection was found to be directed against the predicted surface domain which comprises amino acids at positions 454 through 491. A sequence comparison revealed considerable polymorphism of the surface domains of P66 proteins of different Lyme disease-causing Borrelia species. Five sequence patterns of this domain were observed in the B. garinii strains studied. In contrast, sequences of the relevant part of P66 of the B. afzelii and B. burgdorferi sensu stricto isolates studied were identical within the respective species. In immunoblotting, 5 of 17 (29.4%) sera from North American patients with early disseminated or persistent Lyme disease reacted against P66 of B. burgdorferi sensu stricto B31. These sera, however, failed to recognize P66 of B. afzelii and B. garinii, as well as an analog of P66 in the relapsing fever agent, B. hermsii. In conclusion, the topological model of P66 is supported by the demonstration of an apparent surface localization of an immunoreactive domain of this protein. Furthermore, analogous to the plasmid-encoded borrelial outer surface proteins, the predicted surface-exposed portion of chromosomally encoded P66 appears to be antigenically heterogenous.
PMID: 8945554 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Posted by coach (Member # 7539) on :
IgM 18 + 22 - 23-25 IND 30 + 31 - 34 IND 37 - 39 + 41 IND 45 - 58 + 66 IND 73 - 83 - 93 -
Posted by David95928 (Member # 3521) on :
Your results look pretty darned positive to this layman. David
Posted by livinlyme (Member # 3773) on :
Hey Coach. I think you will be surprised how different the Igenex results are from QUest... please post us as to the results when you get them..
I personally do not care for QUest.. and I would be interested in how they compare to Igenex.... the truth begins to unravel.... Posted by selbyl (Member # 6997) on :
I work at Quest. They use Mardex for Lyme WB. It is good for early stage Lyme but not for chronic. I tested negative by Quest Mardex & positive by IGeneX, which I highly recommend. I've had conversations w/ Dr Harris at IGeneX & feel very comfortable w/ their testing accuracy, specificity, sensitivity & diagnostic criteria. Quest uses CDCs survellience criteria which was never intended to be used as diagnostic criteria like Quest uses it. I've emailed the medical director for some explanation as to why but haven't rec'd a response.
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Positive results IgG 23-25 ++ = Outer surface protein C (osp C). 25-kDa OspC [specific for Bb] 28 ++ = An outer surface protein. Oms28 [specific for Bb] 30 + = Possibly a variant of outer surface protein A. *30-kDa OspA substrate binding protein 31 ++++ = definitely Outer surface protein A (osp A). 31-kDa OspA [specific for Bb] 34 + = Outer surface protein B (osp B). OspB [specific for Bb] 41 + = Flagella or tail. This is how Borrelia burgdorferi moves around, by moving the flagella. Many bacteria in conjunction with these other bands yep 58 ++= Heat shock protein.yep 39 IND = saw something but not enough Unknown what this antigen is, but based on research at the National Institute of Health (NIH), other Borrelia (such as Borrelia recurrentis that causes relapsing fever), do not even have the genetics to code for the 39 kDa antigen, much less produce it. It is the most specific antibody for borreliosis of all. *39-kDa BmpA [specific for Bb]
IgM 18 + = An outer surface protein. *18-kDa p18 flagellin fragment 23-25 IND = saw something but not enough, Outer surface protein C (osp C). 30 + = Possibly a variant of outer surface protein A. *30-kDa OspA substrate binding protein yep 34 IND = saw something but not enough Outer surface protein B (osp B). 39 + = Unknown what this antigen is, but based on research at the National Institute of Health (NIH), other Borrelia (such as Borrelia recurrentis that causes relapsing fever), do not even have the genetics to code for the 39 kDa antigen, much less produce it. It is the most specific antibody for borreliosis of all.yep *39-kDa BmpA [specific for Bb] 41 IND = saw something but not enough Flagella or tail. This is how Borrelia burgdorferi moves around, by moving the flagella. Many bacteria have flagella. This is the most common borreliosis antibody. 58 + = Heat shock protein. 66 IND = saw something but not enough Heat shock protein. This is the second most common borrelia antibody.
It is a clinical decision with all the positives and the bands you have and the symptoms too. I would say get treated and keep treating until all symptoms are gone. Then treat six months more after symptoms are gone this is what I would do and did treat six months more.
Depending how long you were infected if a couple weeks treat a couple months unless symptoms are there. If sicker longer' treat longer'a lot longer.
Rule of thumb Bands specific for Borrelia burgdorferi: 14-kDa ? 21-kDa 22-kDa OspC 25-kDa OspC 28-kDa OspD 31-kDa OspA 34-kDa OspB 35-kDa 37-kDa 39-kDa 47-kDa 50-kDa 83-kDa 93-kDa 94-kDa
oops! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)