man we got a lot of sick people here. i'll go with my theory that stage 3 lymies will go into remission, butr never get totally rid of the bacteria.
anybody tried vacuum therapy. they use a HBO chamber and evacute all the air. works in less than 5 minutes.lol
if you kill the host, you kill the lyme. lol
keep on trucking or wheelchairing
docdave Posted by lymie tony z (Member # 5130) on :
Dave....let me in!
Daves not here!
Man dave... that's a heckofa treatment!
I think you need a little vacation time on the boat with a couple umbrella drinks and some female companionship!
Take a small cruise to Safety Harbor dock, doc and I'll buy...
In answer to your inquiry though....
This being a rather relative question I can answer with relative certainty that I have relatives that are relatively healthy......
zman
[ 19. October 2006, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: lymie tony z ]
Posted by Ladylee210 (Member # 9945) on :
Heard the vacuuming HBO way is not as effective as the regular chamber treatments.
If I knowing this to be that of the soft chamber way? Is that what it is?
Posted by lymie tony z (Member # 5130) on :
Yeah lady if the soft chamber is between your ears.....
LOL
Dave's having a little fun today dear....
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
Gotta separate the N from the H.
Where there's a will, there's a way!
As I see it...4 alternative paths can and do indeed eliminate this infection over time (about 2 years).
I do not have lyme. My sister does. The research has been for HER and all of you here.
I wanted to know WHY antibiotics (tons for years) didn't cure her. I have a medical background. Like most of you here, I believed in "traditional medicine".
1500 + MS word files later...
Look closely at Bb's genetic profile.
What happens when C-acetyltransferase drops?
What happens when acetylcholine rises?
What is the impact of a PFK inhibitor?
What happens when choline drops?
What in the world is it that the Western Fence Lizard produces that is capable of eliminating Bb?
What happens when Bb uses 2 of our 3 antioxidant enzymes to avoid destruction by superoxide and H2O2?
What happens when Mg levels drop?
Why is TNF alpha thru the roof?
What is triggering NFkB prolonging this disease?
What is the impact of ethanol since all spirochetes ferment sugar to ethanol?
The "mindset" here is antibiotics.
They do NOT cure this infection. They may keep the symptoms under control and drive Bb into cyst form, but they do not CURE this disease. They DO, however, rid co-infections. But...they alter the immune response and destroy beneficial bacteria which alone is disasterous.
We're dealing with a UNIQUE pathogen.
Think "outside" the box.
Tony...Doc's on the wrong coast, but you are not. Help is nearby...and it works.
Ask Greg if he shows up again. He is well now and only pops in once in awhile.
Or...follow Kent's lead...faithfully.
This too, shall work.
I am NOT kidding.
Posted by shizuko (Member # 8213) on :
So, Marnie, what are the 4 alternative paths you have in mind?
I guess I am not quite following what you are saying....
Perhaps it is true that ABX don't cure Lyme, but do you think we should be doing?
I heard from one of my LLMD's patients that she (the LLMD) is now more toward integrating alternative medicines into treatment plans, and sounds like it's a good thing, doesn't it?
Anyway, I am sorry that your sister has been treated with ABX for a long time and still sick.
Thank you for doing such extensive research for her and for us.
shizuko
Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
Tony-
Tag you're it!
TaTa! Ali
Posted by dontlikeliver (Member # 4749) on :
Marnie,
I am interested in what you're saying, and I appreciate you wanting to help. However, I do NOT have a medical background. I do not know what half the things you talk about are, nor do I know where to start to try to understand it. I don't even know what half those words, or more, mean that you just typed above.
I wonder if I am not the only one who finds the message you're trying to give out hard to understand/decipher. Would it be possible to put it in plain language?
ThankS
DLL
Posted by lymednva (Member # 9098) on :
DLL, you're not alone. I can't understand most of Marnie's posts either.
I would not be able to understand this stuff if I tried to research it. I need it put in easy to understand terms.
My reading comprehension is very poor!
Posted by mlkeen (Member # 1260) on :
I'm better-
Haven't done anything differently than the rest of you guys- it takes years.
Plenty or mag and heat from before I could get good treatment, during treatment and continue post treatment.
IV failure- second round of co-infection testing turned up Bart and Rocky Mountain, not treated with rocephin.
Long term tetra for lyme and co-infections. Low carb diet, 2.5 years. Three months of diflucan, then NO carbs to address yeast and food sensitivites. Pulsing diflican. Also started drinking water without chlorine and flouride and reducing chemicals by eating organic as much as possible.
I take diflucan(1-2 days) whenever I have eaten too many carbs and my joints start to tighten.
That's it.
Mel
Posted by stymielymie (Member # 10044) on :
pleas edo not try this vacuum treatment at home.
there are not any licensed professionals that will do this procedure.
this was strickly a joke. if you vacuum the air out of a HBO chamber you get what people????
dead bodies, not a pretty picture. so don't try this at home.
thanks tony for explaining my bizarre sense of humor, i guess some people will try anything, even if it doesn't make sense.
i can fly my learjet over and meet you for lunch at the holiday inn at long boat key. bring a couple of hotties if you like. my wife is out of town for two weeks at a retreat to get away from me and my lyme.
Hey isn't that a sound: me and my lyme(shadow)
"Me And My Shadow" (feat. Jonathan Wilkes)
[spoken] [Robbie: (american accent)] Johnny and Robbie [Jonathon:] What you talking like that for, you're from Stoke! [Robbie:] I dunno but I can't stop here pally
Like the wallpaper sticks to the wall Like the seashore clings to the sea Like you'll never get rid of your shadow(LYME) You'll never get rid of me
Let all the others fight and fuss(LYMENET) Whatever happens, we've got us.
(Me and my shadow) We're closer than pages that stick in a book We're closer than ripples that flow in a brook (Strolling down the avenue) Wherever you find him(BB), you'll find me, just look(BUT DON'T RUN ANY TESTS) Closer than a miser or the bloodhounds to Liza
Me and my shadow We're closer than smog to all of L.A. We're closer than Ricky to confessing he's gay?? Not a soul can bust this team in two(ME & LYME) We stick together like glue
And when it's sleeping time(WITH LOTS OF PILLS) That's when we rise(VIAGRA NECESSARY) We start to swing Our clocks don't chime What a surprise They ring-a-ding-ding! Happy New Year!(MAYBE NEXT YEAR)
(Me and my shadow) And now to repeat what I said at the start They'll need a large crowbar to break us(LYME &ME) apart We're alone but far from blue(ANTIDEPRESSANT HELP THIS)
Before we get finished, we'll make the town roar We'll hit a few late spots, and then a few more We'll wind up at Stringy's and maybe grab show Life is gonna be we-wow-whee!(YEH RIGHT) For my shadow and me!
[spoken] [Jonathon:] Can we do that again [Robbie:] No, I'm too tired(WHAT A SURPRIZE) [Jonathon:] Please Rob [Robbie:] No, I'm swung out [Jonathon:] I'll give you some money(IF I HAD ANY LEFT) [Robbie:] I don't need money [Jonathon:] What about a cup of tea(YEH TINCUPS FORMULA) [Robbie:] Not thirsty(WITH 2 GALLONS A DAYOF COURSE NOT) [Jonathon:] I'll won't tell anyone you're gay. [Both Laugh](NO GAY BASHING,THERE WELCOME HERE TOO!)
Before we get finished, we'll make the town roar We'll hit all the late spots, and then a few more We'll wind up at Stringy's and maybe grab show Life is gonna be we-wow-whee! For my shadow and me!
THIS SONG SHOULD BE CONVERTED FOR LYME THEME SONG. docdave
Posted by lymie tony z (Member # 5130) on :
Since ya had to get serious Marnie,
OK if I'm on the correct coast...
where might I get this help!??
And hey Cavey...Seriously, I'm seriously sick and am seriously seeking some serious medicine seriously...
stymie tag your it!
zman
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Throw tomatoes!! I'm doing GREAT!!!! Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by lymie tony z: ...Seriously, I'm seriously sick and am seriously seeking some serious medicine seriously...
I think Tony's been watching Gray's Anatomy a little too much. Posted by stymielymie (Member # 10044) on :
lymetutu
i don't think i like you anymore. why don't you mush in our faces a little more.
what the heck is this tag your it stuff. am i the next to be cured hahaha!!!!! docdave
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Is anybody healthy on this site?????? Nope
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by stymielymie: lymetutu
i don't think i like you anymore. why don't you mush in our faces a little more.
Well, YOU ASKED! Posted by cmichaelo (Member # 5873) on :
I think that I can safely say I am healthier and feeling better and more productive than at any other point in my life...that I can remember.
I am healthy in the sense that the remaining Lyme symptoms I still have are now weak and rare...and are getting weaker and rarer every month.
Gone is fatique, sleep disturbances, word searching, short-term memory problem, headaches, heart palpitations, heart stings, concentration problems, multitasking problems, dizzy spells, balancing issues, blurred vision, and depression.
My body temp is also pretty stable now. Typically it's in the lower 98's throughout the day. Early mornings it's in the upper 97's.
Just some background about my battle with Lyme:
I've had neurological Lyme symptoms for +25 years. It has affected me on and off to various degrees up until 2004 where I was finally officially diagnosed with Lyme disease. In 2004 I got reinfected or infected with a new strain, and possibly also with Babesia, which put my out of commision for about a year (I lost my job for one thing). In 2005, more than one year later, things started turning around for me.
I did take lots of oral antibiotics for about 1 1/2 year. In retrospect, they probably did help some in the sense that they took the brunt of the disease, but by no means did they get rid of it.
In late 2005 I started the Buhner protocol, which helped me further keep Bb in check.
IMO, and from everything I have heard on Lymenet and I have read, abx can NOT cure chronic Lyme disease by itself. Not even in combination with cyst busters and coinfection treatments. Nor can Buhner's protocol.
I would call abx a good start in the early treatment of Lyme disease. I would call Buhner's protocol a good protocol to transition to after abx. (I can't attest to using Buhner in the start of a treatment, cause I have not done that.)
Of much greater importance, however, is what you eat and drink and which supplements and herbs you take. Equally important is exercise and detox.
I address all of the above issues on a daily basis, and plan to do so for the rest of my life.
I take no abx, sleeping pills or any px drugs anymore, and have no done so for 1/2 year now.
I do not put anything in my body that doesn't have a purpose. I eat as little as possible of processed and refined foods.
Most recently I started fasting as a means to further detox my body and build mental strength.
Having said all this, I know I still have Lyme disease. I can sense it. And occasionally I get some spurious symptoms which I attribute more to dying Bb's than succesful replications.
I believe Bb is firmly embedded in my brain and elsewhere because I've had for such a long time. Correspondingly, due to Bb's craftiness, I also believe it'll take a very long time indeed to get fully rid of it.
That's why I've taken the jump to basically now living a comprehensive Bb-hostile life. I know what Bb doesn't like. Ironically, it turns out, most of these things that Bb don't like, I do like, such as running, hottubs, sauna, ginger/sage teas, cayenne, organic goat dairy products, salad, fruit, seeds, nuts, veggies, raw honey, etc.
I have tremendous respect for Bb. I consider it my worst enemy, and I'll fight it by any natural means I possibly can.
Btw, I think that there are many people with chronic Lyme who are now considering themselves healthy. I'm guessing the reason you don't hear from them is that they have left the site to return to their normal lives.
Michael
Posted by pegee4 (Member # 9869) on :
When I am in remission or just feeling better I'm usually in the jazz sites on paltalk. When I am well, I like to think in terms of wellness and not talk disease. My prayer is that one day we will have no need for a site like this!!
Posted by mtnwoman (Member # 8385) on :
Hi Marnie,
You ended saying "follow Kent's lead faithfully".
Who is Kent? What does he propose?
thanks!
Posted by lymie tony z (Member # 5130) on :
Hey stymie...no can do...I'll supply the martoonies but MY wife ISN'T up north....LOL
TUTU...I used to watch Erin Grey's anatomy when she was on "flash gordon" the tv series...
But I have'nt watched one episode of the gray's anatomy on tv yet... I think it's opposite something else I watch...
I don't know about the tag thing either...AliG started it...but it seemed like the natural thing to do........
So what happened to Marnie???
Hey Marnie...you can't just run in here and dump all that technical stuff on us and tell me I'm close to someplace to be cured and then just walk away...
I mean heck...this is a serious post no matter what that cave dweller thinks!!!
zman
Posted by secondtimearound (Member # 7249) on :
I am well, 100% on most days but still herx slightly after my monthly rife treatment.
Although my health has improved, my outlook on life has had the greatest improvement.
I hope and pray you all get to this point.
All My Best, Scott
Posted by karatelady (Member # 7854) on :
I'm so glad someone came along and said they couldn't understand Marnie's technical talk.
I was beginning to think I was the only one (except maybe Tony Z).
I would read it, then re-read it, then read it again, and still not be able to comprehend it. I probably just need more magnesium.
But I do wish Marnie would come back as I would love to hear what all this wonderful stuff means.
Sandy
Posted by Cobweb (Member # 10053) on :
I'm healthy ! Posted by Carol B (Member # 9110) on :
R NOT ! Posted by Cobweb (Member # 10053) on :
R SO ! Posted by Carol B (Member # 9110) on :
Go to bed-it's past your bedtime. Posted by Cobweb (Member # 10053) on :
Is NOT ! Posted by Carol B (Member # 9110) on :
Lullaby and Good Night With Roses Delight Go to sleepy, little baby And may all your dreams be bright. Posted by Cobweb (Member # 10053) on :
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by karatelady: I'm so glad someone came along and said they couldn't understand Marnie's technical talk.
I was beginning to think I was the only one (except maybe Tony Z).
I would read it, then re-read it, then read it again, and still not be able to comprehend it. I probably just need more magnesium.
But I do wish Marnie would come back as I would love to hear what all this wonderful stuff means.
Sandy
Yeah, I'm doing great, but will never be so great that I can understand all that stuff. I've given up long ago! Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by lymie tony z: TUTU...I used to watch Erin Grey's anatomy when she was on "flash gordon" the tv series...
But I have'nt watched one episode of the gray's anatomy on tv yet...
oh...they're always saying "SERIOUSLY?" Posted by lymie tony z (Member # 5130) on :
TUTU....OH....
zman
Posted by stymielymie (Member # 10044) on :
this really turned out to be a wery eduatonal post.
i think youse all making funn of me and my new friend tony.
tag tutu's it docdave
[ 20. October 2006, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: stymielymie ]
Posted by Penn92 (Member # 9207) on :
I'm posting to up this so Marnie might come back and give us straight info.
Is there a post where she lays out a good protocol or is it always those brain-twisting questions? Since her brain isn't Lyme-addled and she can figure all of that stuff out, it would be nice to just have all of her recommendations in one post to refer to.
It really seems like cruel and unusual punishment to make sick folks figure out complicated medical info that even healthy people would have a hard time understanding... Posted by klutzo (Member # 5701) on :
OK you guys..... Please don't kill the messenger if I get this wrong. Just trying to help....
I have had lots of "conversations" with Marnie, since I am in need of non-Abx help, and I think I can explain a small part of what she said. If I get it wrong, hopefully, she will come and correct me.
Take the following together 6 times daily: (Amts. are approximate)
For taking these so many times: They are quickly used and/or dumped by Bb, so you must keep replenishing them.
For taking Mg: Bb needs the PFK enzyme to replicate and Mg blocks it, so Bb dumps Mg in your urine. Proper function of many body systems depend on Mg, esp. cardiac and metabolic, so it must be replaced. Continually taking Mg helps it block replication of Bb.
For taking so much B Complex: We need B6 to help heal Bb damaged nerves, and choline and inositol to make up for what Lyme's use of acetylcholine does to our memories and mental functioning. Since individual B's do not work well when taken alone, take the whole complex.
For taking lecithin: Bb uses Cholesterol as a food source and Lecithin will bind to it and carry it away.
I followed this for two months once. It made me feel much calmer, and lowered my high blood pressure a little bit.
I found it impossible to remember to take them 6 times, and cut down to 3 times per day. I also lowered the B Complex dose quite a bit, since I seemed to be peeing most of it out.
I don't feel as calm as when I did it her way, but my Lyme rages are almost a thing of the past, and that is a very big deal for me. I consider Mg to be my most important supplement, followed by D-Ribose for energy.
I can't explain any of the other things in her post, but I hope this helps a little, and I hope I got most of it right.
Klutzo
P.S. Marnie - I see you were posting at the exact same time I was. I would still like to know what the 4 pathways are.... I can look into the "how" msyelf once I know what they are. I think some other posters here would be receptive also. Ignore the blasters. They aren't worth your attention,and anyone who does as much work on this as you've done deserves respect, even from those who disagree.
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
I posted what I would do IF I had lyme (which I do NOT...my SISTER does)
and got blasted.
That was several months ago.
Hey, guys, 5 years ago, when I logged onto this board, I didn't even know what LLMD stood for and was too embarrased to ask.
I had to do a LOT of reading and a lot of searching until I BEGAN to understand what was happening. I had to look up a LOT of "definitions"!
I wanted to know WHY antibiotics were failing my sister.
The neurotransmitters, the immune system...talk about complex!!! Sooooooo much to learn.
I have PM'd a few who are "open" to exploring different paths and have spelled them out. So far there appears to be 4 different paths to healing though each works in a different way.
But...in order to BELIEVE they might work, one needs to see HOW it is possible.
If I was on a bridge over a river with a group of friends and someone told me to jump off...
I'd look down and evaluate the distance. I'd wonder how deep the water was, how cold it was, if there were rocks hidden below, how fast the current was BEFORE I WOULD JUMP.
Then, likely, I'd watch someone else jump first. I'd have to see that he/she emerged safe, happy, and alive.
Which is WHY...when someone reports here that something helps(Cat's Claw, d-ribose, Ginkgo, coconut oil...whatever), I start researching to figure out HOW it is working and if there is any danger to it.
Slowly...slowly...the puzzle pieces began to fall into place.
You CAN get well, but must be willing to learn and to think "outside the box". Stay open minded.
Posted by karatelady (Member # 7854) on :
Thanks Klutzo ~ that was very simplified.
And thank you Marnie. I'm VERY open-minded. No more abx for me. Six months was too much.
I've just ordered my KMT24 (got Brett's second one) and can't wait until it arrives.
I'm detoxing with steam/sauna tent with oxygen and ozone pumped in.
I'm getting out last two fillings.
Taking Chlorella, Wobenzymes, Rechts-Regulat.
Was taking Heparin but had to stop as the Xango stepped in and didn't need the Heparin anymore. The blood was getting too thin.
So I'm outside that box wandering around just trying to figure out what it all means to be here!
Sandy
Posted by klutzo (Member # 5701) on :
Sandy, I have found Nattokinase to be a good heparin substitute as well. I take so much krill oil, and cod liver oil now, that I have dropped it, since I also don't want blood that is too thin. My fibrinogen level has been good for awhile now. I did take Natto for a whole year though.
Chlorella is the best detox I've tried, but I found I cannot handle enough of it to do much good unless I take a digestive enzyme with each dose. That really helps with the cramps, gas, and pain it can cause, even with a broken cell wall. I hope you won't have that problem, but if you do, try enzymes.
Chlorella has lowered my herx pain, so that I've been able to double my dosage of herbs and get closer to being able to take the recommended dosage.
Klutzo
Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
But Marnie......
quote:Think "outside" the box.
Tony...Doc's on the wrong coast, but you are not. Help is nearby...and it works.
Ask Greg if he shows up again. He is well now and only pops in once in awhile.
Or...follow Kent's lead...faithfully.
This too, shall work.
I am NOT kidding.
What's THAT all about?
Tracy
Posted by karatelady (Member # 7854) on :
Klutzo,
I've heard that about Nattokinase. I was supposed to be taking Lumbrokinase with the Heparin but it was so expensive I quit taking it.
If I ever do need to get back on Heparin, I'll try the Natt since its more natural.
Thanks for the tips on taking the Chlorella too. Mine are green tablets - I hope that is as good as the powder.
Sandy
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Word of warning about the natto. It causes gas and bloating for some people [ME!]. I think it's because of the soy. I don't get along well with soy.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthfinder: But Marnie......
quote:Think "outside" the box.
Tony...Doc's on the wrong coast, but you are not. Help is nearby...and it works.
Ask Greg if he shows up again. He is well now and only pops in once in awhile.
Or...follow Kent's lead...faithfully.
This too, shall work.
I am NOT kidding.
What's THAT all about?
Tracy
Dunno.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by stymielymie: tag tutu's it docdave
Back atcha! Posted by lymie tony z (Member # 5130) on :
TUTU....FOUL FOUL FOUL....
You should no better!!!!
You can't tag the person that just tagged you IT!
Ya gotta Pick someone else!
Play fair or I'll have to put you in the timeout chair......
zman
Posted by 5dana8 (Member # 7935) on :
Thanks marnie & klutzo for making it easier to understand.
I have a stupid question: If BB needs these things-B complex & mag,ect.. -and if we give it to them are we feeding them?
I sometimes take B6 & mag combo to help me to sleep. If you take it 3XD soes it make you sleepie?
I have read some LLMD's say not to take B-complex & some say do. It can get confusing
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by lymie tony z: Play fair or I'll have to put you in the timeout chair......
zman
OH NO! NOT the timeout chair!!
Tony, you're now IT!
Posted by stymielymie (Member # 10044) on :
marnie: i am willing to try anything at this pooint that isn't abx.
i am pretty sure i am develping abx resistance with bb and maybe babs.
after 2months claforan, 2months vantin, 3 months biaxin xl, i developed MRSA a abx resistant staph aureus. doc put me on batrim and i herxed for a solid two weeks.
so the answer is not abx. there has to be a way to block the rna segment from attaching to the end of the rna in cells.
you may be more on the right track, then high doses of abx.
my research is about bb going into dormant stages and its similarity to many viruses. the big difference seem to be the lack of antibody formation, as opposed to viruses.
if we could somehow tag the bb with a material, ie. genetically altered virus,ecoli of something inert. this would allow the immune system to see the bb and remove it.
most of the chronic lymies problem is the bb are stealth in all forms and hide from the t cells, so they can run rabid and multiply.
i think this is one of the reason we don't get positive tests. if we could get our immune system to recognize bb then small amounts of antibodies could be formed enough to show a positive IGG and Igm
this would help greatly in the diagnosis and adequate treatment of bb. it would also help with the long term progress of treatment.
what you think marnie. you majored in microbiology right??? i know it can be done. i talked to a researcher MD at hopkins doing genetic research. they tried my idea for using inert viruses and bacteria to deliver gene therapy. they have started clinical trials using this method of administartion of gene therapy.
so I will either get a nobel prize or lots of lawsuits. lol
i will try to fairly evaluate you information and will repost as soon as my mind can absorb it.
and tony: marco
docdave
Posted by 5dana8 (Member # 7935) on :
Herbs and alternative choices helped me along the way in my 20 year life with lyme, but didn't get me into remission.
Got all my metal in my teeth out 1989 ...tried: detox-yogi-swimming-good foods-herbs-vitamins-you name it and I probably have tried it. Rife's been helping but thus far but hasn't been as effective as abx.
The thing that I have done over the years in combination with tx is good suppluments,good foods,living a healthy lifestyle and keeping a positive attitude.
Am I cured? -no Am I healthy? -define healthy Am I in remission? - partical & I'll take it Do I regrete taking abx & meds for the co-infections? a big NO
ABX has saved my life literally- many times.
This is my personal story. Not meant to take away any other person's personal choices to their journey to wellness.
Posted by lymie tony z (Member # 5130) on :
TUTU....I knew you were gonna do that!
But you did'nt do it right...you should have said "tag you're it" so it's off to the "time out chair" for you my dear! LOL
Carol....Tag...you're it! You Two figure it out!
And as for you stymie! I HATE THAT GAME!
Especially in the pool when all I want to do is sip my martini and soak up the sun! So....
I'm NOT going to play that one!
zman
Posted by klutzo (Member # 5701) on :
Dana, You are correct that there is a big disagreement about whether to "feed" Mg and B vits. to the Bbs.
I simply cannot function without either supplement, and the body cannot run properly without them. The heart will be damaged without Mg, and I have 3 leaking valves and 2 conduction disorders, all of which started before I began to supplement with high dose Mg.
I look at this like chemotherapy. I would not do chemo, since (IME) it often kills the patient, and rarely helps.
Like chemo, starving the Bb of Mg and B vits. will help kill it, but it may also kill you, and it sure won't make you stronger, so you can fight Bb on your own once ABX is withdrawn. I believe strengthening the host terrain is essential to long term improvement.
Also, remember that the Mg you are taking is blocking that PFK enzyme, which is helping to lower your load of Bb in the long run.
Yes, it makes me sleepier, but I can use that. I have apnea now, and have to wear a CPAP machine. Anything that helps me sleep with that contraption is welcome!
Just my opinion. We all have to decide what is best for us. ABX is not an option for me, which limits my choices compared to most folks here.
Best,
Klutzo
Posted by 5dana8 (Member # 7935) on :
Thanks Klutzo
Hope you are feeling better.
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
Bb wants choline...a B vitamin and needs many other of our nutrients.
We use others to fight.
Mg citrate 100mg, NOT 200mg (Klutzo...typo) Lecithin B-50 complex
q2h for 6 doses per day
Is only for STARTERS!!! There is MUCH more that is needed for very specific reasons.
The "above" is a modification of Valletta's U.S. patent: "Magnesium for autoimmune" since we can't find/buy Mg pyrophosphate (a bisphosphate).
Florida is "alternative friendly" - thank goodness! Far infrared (approved) and ozone saunas, Befe detox, Ondamed (FDA approved), and even Rife are available on THIS coast. Dave's on the other coast. Tony is not too far from my home and the places that can provide help.
Greg, ("one speed Greg" - he is a biker... used to be on this board, but is now much better) started his healing journey in my "hometown". Please note: Greg was on abx.intially and was very dedicated to getting well...he eats very healthy foods and exercises as able. These too are critical to fight and to win this life-threatening battle.
P.S. Not all Rife units are "created equal" and one has to apply the right frequencies. Scanning ability of the machine helps too. And doc...I "aced" microbiology which was part of my nursing cirriculum. Chem was not my thing, though.
Bb's outer wall is so similar to our own proteins...tagging will be difficult.
Antibodies are malformed. I've said this repeatedly. The fab portion is malformed because it takes ENOUGH Mg (and Ca) to make healthy antibodies.
Once again...
Our own antibodies are not "perfect" fighters against Bb, why?
"Characterization of the physiological requirements for the bactericidal effects of a monoclonal antibody to OspB of Borrelia burgdorferi by confocal microscopy.
The bactericidal effect of Fab-CB2 is not dependent on the induction of spirochetal proteases but is dependent on the presence of
Ca2+ and Mg2+.
Supplementation of Ca2(+)- and Mg2(+)-free medium with these cations
restored the bactericidal effects of Fab-CB2.
The mechanism by which a Fab fragment of an antibody destroys a bacterium directly may represent a novel form of antibody-organism interaction.
PMID: 9125579
A ``novel form of antibody-organism interaction?'' I don't THINK so!
E. Required by immunological process. Magnesium, immunity, and allergy: Mg is required for several steps of immunological reactions 1. Lymphoblastic transformation, a prerequisite of secretion of antibodies by lymphoblasts, requires Ca2+ and Mg2+ 2. Mg is required for synthesis of proteins, immunoglobulins included 3. Antibody-induced complement activation is Mg dependent 4. The antigen-immunoglobulin-complement reaction induces degranulation of the mastocyte
(above link is wrapped) This link explains the functions of magnesium to educate doctors.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by klutzo:
I simply cannot function without either supplement, and the body cannot run properly without them. The heart will be damaged without Mg, and I have 3 leaking valves and 2 conduction disorders, all of which started before I began to supplement with high dose Mg.
I look at this like chemotherapy. I would not do chemo, since (IME) it often kills the patient, and rarely helps.
Like chemo, starving the Bb of Mg and B vits. will help kill it, but it may also kill you, and it sure won't make you stronger, so you can fight Bb on your own once ABX is withdrawn. I believe strengthening the host terrain is essential to long term improvement.
[/qb]
Absolutely correct!!!
Posted by GiGi (Member # 259) on :
Both, Mag and B's are easily given IM, and pose no problem of feeding the bugs that way. I used to do the B's IM all the time avoiding feeding the parasites.
Posted by Lymied (Member # 6704) on :
Depends how you define 'healthy' - what this journey down the lyme brick road has taught me is that there are many different kinds of healthy.
My liver may not be as healthy as the next guys but my outlook sure the heck might be.
I have had to redefine 'healthy' and when I get to those days where I am in a heap on the couch just wanting to cry, I remember that my perspective is a lot better than it once was.
I thank the universe daily for the smallest of things I once took for granted.
Ok, so after blowing all that sunshine up your, well you know where, I will say there are days I cry to be my old healthy mile running, meter rowing self...but then I dry the tears and get up and do what I can.
What choice do I have?
Posted by klutzo (Member # 5701) on :
Dear Marnie, Thanks for coming back to explain more! The 200 mg. dose of Mg 6 x daily was not a typo for me.... I need that much so I can poop! (sorry to be gross , but I take Verapamil for PSVT's, and it stops me up, big time).
Dear Gigi, Doesn't Bb hide everywhere, in muscle tissue too, as well as places even the immune system can't reach? If so, why would IM Mg or B Vitamins not feed the organisms just as much as oral dosages? Thanks for any help in understanding this.
Klutzo
Posted by viva (Member # 8183) on :
Gigi,
Does injecting magnesium and the B's also avoid the potential for feeding the Bb, or must it be done IV?
Thanks very much.
Aviva
Posted by GiGi (Member # 259) on :
I used to get the IV mag IV or IM to get it there more quickly to support me. Mayr's cocktail, etc. is done for that reason. I had lots of those.
B complex and single B's taken IM or in an IV do not go through the digestive tract where the parasites get it for food and you will only get what they leave behind. To avoid feeding the parasites, the B's are given IV or IM. They do not go through the stomach and are not picked up by the gut parasites that way. I wasn't there and paying that much attention to my hungry parasites, but Dr. K. having dealt with this for years deals with the problem in that manner.
I was taught to give myself all the B injections several times a week, especially in the early stages, where I was totally depleted. Never ever took a B complex vitamin by mouth. The only B I will take is B6 if I feel it necessary. No B-complex whatsoever.
We have enough parasites as it is - they eat most of your vitamins right there in the gut where they are living!!!!
I never take any multi-vitamins. I take food or food extracts mainly. Phospholipids. And minerals galore. Minerals are no longer in the food we grow - not enough even in organic - so minerals and a good mixture of the oils including fish oil, all for brain functions, are the most important; phospholipids to support the liver health, memory, healthy estrogen metabolism, optimizing fat and protecting cell membranes from damage. Phospholipids help to increase absorption (I put it in my Kefir shake in the morning, along with blueberry extract, etc. etc. and a lot of other goodies)
Don't feed the parasites by taking oral B's. They have got the upper hand right now anyway and you want to subdue them and reduce their numbers.
Take care.
Posted by klutzo (Member # 5701) on :
Hi Gigi, Doesn't Mg given IM hurt like a male illegitimate child? That's what I've heard from my conventional docs when I bring it up. Or do they put lidocaine in front of the Mg before injecting it? When you do it yourself, do you buy the Mg from the pharmacy or the alternative doc?
I only know one woman who has had a lot of IM Mg, for a dx of FMS, and she said it did not help her at all. She was part of a study looking at the use of IM Mg in FMS, which came up with negative results.
I take Pepto Bismol at bed time for 6 days, every 6 weeks, to kill Bb in the gut. I am hoping that helps some at keeping their numbers down. It sure seems to calm things down.
I guess the Bb using my supps. is why I need such high doses of them, rather than malabsorption, which is what I assumed to be the reason, before reading your explanation.
Right now, I have painful cracks in the corners of my mouth, which means either yeast overgrowth or a B2 deficiency....amazing since I take so many supps. for both. It happens every once in awhile. I actually have scars there.
Thanks for explaining. I can see your point now, but I guess this is just another case of medicine for the rich. I can't afford to get my fillings out, and can't afford a fee for service doctor who would give me these injections or teach me how to do it myself. Most of the Lymies I know personally are in the same predicament as I am. Disability checks don't stretch that far.
I am glad you had the funds to pursue this and that you are well now.
Klutzo
Posted by Cobweb (Member # 10053) on :
I don't understand a bit of this thread-except the game of tag- and Carol B's IT, but she's stuck over in General because I told her it was Freeze Tag-so she can't move until someone else tags her.
How much does it matter that I don't understand most of the discussion in this thread- as long as my LLMD does? I've turned my life and my medical care over to her.
Everytime I go back she adds another antibiotic and now she has tripled my brain fog meds-wonder why????
Posted by bv (Member # 9578) on :
I have read and re-read Marnie's post several times & have ZERO idea what she is talking about.
Does anyone else know? If yes, can you say it in direct statements instead of the mumbo jumbo decoy language? Thank you.
Posted by Cobweb (Member # 10053) on :
We'll miss you Cave- write when you get a chance. Are you allowed visitors ?
Give Dr. Demento a kiss for me. Posted by Vermont_Lymie (Member # 9780) on :
How can anyone take that much Mg without spending much of the day in the bathroom?
Really, if someone has the approach that works for this much oral Mg (IV out of the question for me, too $$), please let us know! Many thanks!
Believe me, I have tried to take one-fourth of that amount after reading Marnie's posts, but it kind of clears out the system....
Posted by Vermont_Lymie (Member # 9780) on :
To the tune of "Raindrops Keep Falling on My Head"
Spirochetes keep falling on my head
And just like the guy whose feet are too big for his
bed
Nothing seems to fit
Those
Spirochetes keep falling in my head, they keep falling...
But there's one thing I know
The blues they send to meet me
Won't defeat me!
It won't be long before Zithromax (substitute favorite tx) steps up to relieve me...
***** Sorry guys, stymie and cave inspired me and I had to share in the all-Lyme musical review Posted by stymielymie (Member # 10044) on :
I'm on my way to the nut house now!!!! the men in white gave me this nice canvas coat with pretty brown buckles on it. OH NO! i have to type sdeawkcab because they just tightened the straps.
my mind just blew after the eagles loss,and the raindrop song,please no more
all can email, and I expect to see raindrops and tony very shortly.
i hope i make dinner time.
docdave
p.s. i may even commit the ultimate act after losing to tonies team. i may shot my tv set. hey tony how many emails do you think i'll get??? Posted by GiGi (Member # 259) on :
Klutzo,
I buy it with prescription at any compound pharmacy or pharmacy that carries some of the alternative meds. Tahoma Clinic in our area has it. Apothecure carries it. I am sure there are lots of them that have it.
Mag IM is mixed with a tiny amount of Procaine and it does not hurt. Not Lidocaine - it is carinogenic (research done). Any friendly nurse can teach you in a couple of minutes to fill a syringe and give yourself a shot. I learned that very early on.
The effects of Mag or anything else you take in my mind are in doubt as long as you are heavy metal toxic. They sit on the binding sites and won't let the good stuff in. Or intracellularly. Cells starve. Cells die. It affects the hormones most of all and without the proper hormone balance, how can you heal?
I am not sure about Pepto Bismol and what it does to your absorption capacities when you take that for several days.
Cracks in the mouth - I had that occasionally - I was told this to be a Herpes. Good garlic or other herbals will take care of herpes and much more than that. These outbreaks often happen as we are killing parasites, because the viruses live within the parasites and are then released.
Look into the Rizoles I posted about recently. Hardly anyone responded to it and it is the most effective medium for so many microbes. Most of Dr. K's patients are on them. One of my friends even got rid of Morgellons she suffered from for many years. It's affordable and easy to take. If no one can test you as to which one of the nine, alternate between them. You will see a big difference over time. And they are not unpleasant to take.
By the way, my husband and I are rich only in love. I have learned that ninetynine cents is just one short of one dollar and Social Security has its limits also.
Take care.
Posted by imanurse (Member # 7022) on :
Klutzo,
Perhaps you have to take that much Mg to poopie because you are taking so much pepto biz as well?
Just a thought......
Posted by klutzo (Member # 5701) on :
Gigi, Thanks for the info. I just had two lidocaine shots for sciatica, since I did not want cortisone. After 17 days of sciatica, I still need more shots. Now I will ask if I can have procaine instead.
I have a friend with Morgellons, and will pass the Rizole info along to her also.
Imanurse, No, good guess, but I take Verapamil to prevent PSVT's and it is the cause of my backing up problem, which has been with me since my first days on it. I had the opposite problem all my life before then. I only take the P. Bismol once every six weeks and strangly, it does not make this problem any worse. This is a common side-effect of Verapamil.
Klutzo
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
The largest organ in our body is our skin...and we can use it to absorb Mg as when we take baths using Epsom salts and baking soda.
If one sits in the baths a long time, one can still get diarrhea, so it doesn't entirely bypass the digestive system.
Even Mg IV can indeed lead to diarrhea so it too gets "routed" to the intestines.
The B vitamins are water soluable...meaning they don't stay in our system but for a few hours.
B6 works in tandem with Mg. It is easily destroyed by our strong stomach acids, thus Valletta (U.S. patent: "Magnesium for autoimmune") used "sub" (meaning sublingual...under the tongue) B6 to avoid it being destroyed.
Re: probiotics.
There are more than 400 different species of bacteria in the human digestive tract. The most important of these are Lactobacillus acidophilus and Bifidobacterium bifidum. They are called probiotics, the opposite of antibiotics, because they aid in creating a healthy balance of microflora in the gut.
In a pinch, the body will substitute Mn if Mg gets too low. Ultimately it appears AL...aluminum will try to help out...which is why in Alzheimers...AL is found in the brains of those patients.
Mg, and ONLY Mg, is attached to ATP...the energy transporter of our cells.
Aluminum and magnesium both burn with a white light...very hot. These minerals are used to ignite other minerals to produce the various colors in fireworks.
Posted by GiGi (Member # 259) on :
Take care.
Posted by stymielymie (Member # 10044) on :
ye marnie everybody at this site should be using stainless steel pots without teflon. these are the faberware pots from the old days. they actually clean up very easily. should not use aluminum pots(even if they are coated) or iron skillets unless coated with porcelain.
most deodorants contain aluminum chlorohydrate. very toxic to body also. use organic deodorant at health food store without aluminum.
even using aluminum foil is questionable.
large dose aluminum leads to alzhemier's and other nerve disorder's
docdave Posted by chroniccosmic (Member # 7789) on :
Can anyone explain the Pepto Bismol part, I don't get that one at all. It kills Bb?
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Herbs and alternative choices helped me along the way in my 20 year life with lyme, but didn't get me into remission. ![[bonk]](graemlins/bonk.gif)