quote:

---

We found that his numbers were mostly right, but his arguments could use a little more context. As we dug deep to uncover the numbers, we found surprisingly few inaccuracies in the film

---

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/06/28/sicko.fact.check/index.html#

I know it was hard for CNN to acknowledge the accuracy of Moore's film, given the huge $$ dollars they take in advertising from Big Pharma and the insurance industry.

By the way, for those uncomfortable with Moore's exposition on 9/11, see here for his line by line factual backup of references for 'FAHRENHEIT 9/11' , http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/
 

---

Posted by groovy2 (Member # 6304) on :
 
Hi All

Yep SickO is mostly about Medical Insurance -
Its 2 hours long already -Lots left to cover-

Soleilpie -I will look into what you listed -

I think Everyone should See SickO --

I dont know Anyone who is Happy with
things now -

Today the Presidents approval ratings are
the Lowest of Any President in History --
-- Lower then Nixon --Ouch--

The Rest of government is not Far Behind -

Greed and Stupidly are Wide Spread --

All of my relatives are Republicans -

7 yrs ago they were Happy - Ho Boy -

Now they are Super Mad --

My father who never listened to
political things any farther than
the Jingles has now started paying
attention -- He is Really Mad --

All I can say is its- About Time -

The only Good thing I can See in Me
having Lyme is I have had the Time
to be more Knowledgeable than
Most Americans - Ouch -

More people in the US Voted for
American Idol than for president
-- SAD --

( I have not spent One second of my
life watching -- AI -- )

Why are the Romans Gone --

Because they did not Pay Attention --

Go See SickO --

I give it 8 Groovy Thumbs Up --


I really like - PBS FrontLine too
-- its Very Good --


The PBS FrontLine can be watched OnLine
its Free -- from PBS TV --
Large amount of interviews with people
involved in the subject -
Hi Quality information -

References shown
Further reading ect--

The hour long shows are Very Interesting-
there is 35 or so programs -
different topics --

Several are on Health issues ect

You will Like -- I Do --

I have to give PBS FrontLine
a Really Big Pile of Thumbs Up -

A slightly bigger pile than will fit in the
trunk of your car -- Squeeze --

-- Jay --

[ 10. July 2007, 12:56 AM: Message edited by: groovy2 ]
 

---

Posted by Skyler (Member # 11549) on :
 
The guy is known for twisting information around.

I have not seen the movie myself, but i feel he is leaning twards socialized medicine, which for us Lymies is a VERY BAD THING.

Had I not been able to go from doctor to doctor (23 of them) untill i finally got the right diagnosis, I would never have gotten the diagnosis.

We would be treated with 1 month of abx and sent on our way.

Socialized med would infact kill us, or leave us ill for the rest of our lives.

Our govt can not teach children properly, there is no way in hell i would trust them with my health.

but I am just ranting. I have been thinking about this for the past week and wanted to get it off my chest.


 

---

Posted by Skyler (Member # 11549) on :
 
oh and...

Socialized med would be very bad. But our system right now is also very horrid.

We need some sort of reform to the system we have now to make it atleast somewhat moral and good for people and their health.

and now thats it, lol.
 

---

Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
 
i disagree that socialized medicine would be 'very bad.' it isn't perfect but by most available accounts (excluding lyme disease, because lyme seems to be an anomaly everywhere), it is SO much better than what we have here. we are the only industrialized nation without universal healthcare. our infant mortality rate is worse than that of el salvador. and, by and large, people in countries with socialized medicine live A LOT longer than people do here.

i can't help but think that the aversion to universal healthcare (or so-called 'socialized medicine') is really reminiscent of cold war era 'red scare' tactics. ("ohmygod COMMIES!!")

and, btw, you can have a system of socialized medicine and still have the option for people who can afford it to choose their own private care. my roommate is from england, and that's how they do it there. she far prefers their system to ours, and plans to move back eventually because she refuses to raise children in a country that won't provide for them.
 

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Posted by tailz (Member # 10014) on :
 
I'm all for socialized medicine.

I figure one of two things:

1) After having seen like 35 doctors - still without a diagnosis, they would have thought - gee, we better cure her - it's sure costing us a lot. Or...

2) Had I had to sit around and wait to see specialists and ended up dying, well then there would be lots of us dead by now, and that would speak volumes about how serious Lyme really is.

I'll tell you this much - whether I had seen 35 docs or just one, I have no doctor to thank. 'I' figured out I had Lyme, not them - so something desperately needs to change here.
 

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Posted by Boomerang (Member # 7979) on :
 
Well said, Soleiol. We don't need socialized medicine in this country.

Did any of you read the other linked thread, about people in other countries with heart disease at age 75? People told they weren't treatable or "worth healing" at that age? To me, that is despicable.

I'm just glad my 92 year old Grandma never had to hear that type of logic before she passed away.

When a country, insurance company or health care system decides at what age people are expendable, we are all in big trouble.

I agree the US needs do something about healthcare costs in this country. But socialized medicine is not the answer.
 

---

Posted by groovy2 (Member # 6304) on :
 
Hi All

Here is short list of some common
Socialized parts of America at the Moment
and for the last 100 years or so

American Military - All Branches

American School System K thru 12-

Thousands of miles of American roads- Highways

American Airports and Air traffic control

The US Post Office -

Thousands of American Collages -

American Bridges and Dams --

Early Rail Roads - Amtrak -

American Park System -

American Water Ways -

NASA - FBI - CIA - NSA - ICE ect

The List of Socialized things is
Perty Long when you think about it --

Who was it that said - It takes a Village ?

She is Right -- It Dose --

Everything on the List above was
thought to be Important Enough by the
Citizens of the - United States --
to Pitch in Together for the Good of All -
and Get the JOB Done --

Having Healthy Citizens Seems as Important
as Any of the Others Listed --

-- Jay --


Ps
Go See SickO
 

---

Posted by daystar1952 (Member # 3255) on :
 
That would be fine if their goal was to keep us healthy but health does not make profits for the drug companies. Drug companies and insurance companies are intricately interwoven with the government. So, with more government control, we will probably have even more sickness

I think there is nothing wrong with "it takes a village" as long as it is individuals independantly helping each other or in small town units. We should not be forced into community service, mandatory harmful vaccinations, drugs which only control the symptoms while at the same time creating more...etc.Everyone should read or reread Brave New World and 1984. It is becoming a reality.

I got a newsletter from Mercola this morning and he says that Moore is exposing much medical crime...and that's good but that doesn't mean that his solution is automatically the answer. We need to take back control of our own healthcare....not give away even more control of it. That's pretty scary. Our health is our most basic and intimate resource. It's part of who we are. Why would we want some unfeeling, uncaring huge conglomerate which is trying to keep up with it's required population reduction numbers, to be responsible for something as personal as our healthcare?

I can see that people are in immediate trouble now, and something has to be done. Mercola suggests that the medical system may be good for things like trauma but even then , if you have to wait in that case, that wouldn't be too good either. He suggests reform by the people and more in natural preventative way. Somehow we need the people themselves, not the corporation/government, to decide how to reform the healthcare system
 

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Posted by daystar1952 (Member # 3255) on :
 
If people feel strong enough, I suggest that you read the following. There is also part two and three which you can click on at the bottom of each page http://www.sweetliberty.org/nobarbarians1.htm

There is no way to tell for sure if this "talk" really happened but the point is the things talked about here are coming true.....and ....if we are aware of how we are being manipulated then we can hopefully reverse the situation by being informed and not falling into the deception trap.

We can only be controlled through deception because there are more of us than those who want to take control of the world. This is why propaganda is so important and why the media is almost now totally owned by those in control. We need to see through the double talk, the controlled opposition and just the fact that we are being horrendously manipulated
 

---

Posted by mtnwoman (Member # 8385) on :
 

quote:

---

The guy is known for twisting information around.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boomerang:
Well said, Soleiol. We don't need socialized medicine in this country.

Did any of you read the other linked thread, about people in other countries with heart disease at age 75? People told they weren't treatable or "worth healing" at that age? To me, that is despicable..............

When a country, insurance company or health care system decides at what age people are expendable, we are all in big trouble.

---

http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=006141
 

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Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
 
many of the folks criticizing the film haven't seen it, or just don't "like" more and claim he lies..

look, how many successful directors do we have out there advocating for the truth to be put on the table for discussion?

no one can say things are well in America politically, medically, or otherwise.

documentaries such as this expose the truth and reality from the people's perspective, and raise issues for discussion.

people are suffering and dying in large numbers as a result of a failed health-care system.

facing off with the fact that so many are suffering is the first step.

the solution(s) can't be known until the problems are faced.

moore accomplishes that.

mo
 

---

Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
 
soleilpie:

i will copy and paste here michael moore's own factual rebuttal of your accusations:
**

(from http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko .. in the letter he links to factual sources directly, if you're curious)
**


The oddest of all the smears thrown at "Bowling for Columbine" is this one:

"The film depicts NRA president Charlton Heston giving a speech near Columbine; he actually gave it a year later and 900 miles away. The speech he did give is edited to make conciliatory statements sound like rudeness."

Um, yeah, that's right! I made it up! Heston never went there! He never said those things!

Or....

The Truth: Heston took his NRA show to Denver and did and said exactly what we recounted. From the end of my narration setting up Heston's speech in Denver, with my words, "a big pro-gun rally," every word out of Charlton Heston's mouth was uttered right there in Denver, just 10 days after the Columbine tragedy. But don't take my word - read the transcript of his whole speech.* Heston devotes the entire speech to challenging the Denver mayor and mocking the mayor's pleas that the NRA "don't come here." Far from deliberately editing the film to make Heston look worse, I chose to leave most of this out and not make Heston look as evil as he actually was.

Why are these gun nuts upset that their brave NRA leader's words are in my film? You'd think they would be proud of the things he said. Except, when intercut with the words of a grieving father (whose son died at Columbine and happened to be speaking in a protest that same weekend Heston was at the convention center), suddenly Charlton Heston doesn't look so good does he? Especially to the people of Denver (and, the following year, to the people of Flint) who were still in shock over the tragedies when Heston showed up.

As for the clip preceding the Denver speech, when Heston proclaims "from my cold dead hands," this appears as Heston is being introduced in narration. It is Heston's most well-recognized NRA image - hoisting the rifle overhead as he makes his proclamation, as he has done at virtually every political appearance on behalf of the NRA (before and since Columbine). I have merely re-broadcast an image supplied to us by a Denver TV station, an image which the NRA has itself crafted for the media, or, as one article put it, "the mantra of dedicated gun owners" which they "wear on T-shirts, stamp it on the outside of envelopes, e-mail it on the Internet and sometimes shout it over the phone." Are they now embarrassed by this sick, repulsive image and the words that accompany it?
**

*(moore links to heston's speech in his letter; just click the link above and scroll down until you find it. or, better yet, read the whole letter.)
 

---

Posted by Greatcod (Member # 7002) on :
 
Did you know that Michael Moore and Ann Coulter
are actually the same person???
 

---

Posted by RoadRunner (Member # 380) on :
 
Nimzovich76

nice post couldn't have said it better

RR
 

---

Posted by Soleilpie (Member # 8481) on :
 
heiwalove

I just started checking out that site you sent so I'm not done, but the thing about Charlton Heston is funny because Moore says that he didn't show the whole speech in order to "not make Heston look as evil as he actually was.

Well, it actually shows Heston's compassion for Columbine. Read his speech at the end below.

I was incorrect in saying that the speech wasn't to the Mayor when it was but not in the way that Moore depicted it as...as if Heston was angry with him.

Also, Moore admits to putting the "From my cold, dead hands" in not because he actually said it that day in Denver but gave the excuse that he put it in there because it's "Heston's most well-recognized NRA image" and something he's done "at virtually every political appearance on behalf of the NRA."

I have a problem with Moore making Heston or anybody out to be what they're not.

Like I said before, Heston didn't come barging into Denver wielding his guns around, going out of his way to be unsympathetic to the Columbine incident.

I can't trust a person who manipulates information like that.

Here's Heston's speech in its entirety from Moore's site.
~~~~~
GOOD MORNING.

I want to welcome you to this abbreviated annual gathering of the National Rifle Association.

Thank you for coming and thank you for supporting your organization.

I also want to applaud your courage in coming here today. Of course, you have a right to be here.

As you know, we've canceled the festivities and fellowship we normally enjoy at our annual gatherings.

This decision has perplexed a few and inconvenienced thousands.

I apologize for that. But it's fitting and proper that we should do this ... because NRA members are, above all, Americans.

That means whatever our differences, we are respectful of one another and we stand united, especially in adversity

Wellington Webb, the mayor of Denver, sent me a message: "Don't come here. We don't want you here, "

I say to the Mayor, I volunteered for the war they wanted me to attend when I was 18 years old.

Since then, I've run small errands for my country from Nigeria to Vietnam.

I know many of you could say the same. But the Mayor said, "Don't come."

I'm sorry for that. I'm sorry for the newspaper ads saying the same thing. "Don't come here."

This is our country. As Americans we are free to travel wherever we wish in our broad land.

They say we'll create a media distraction. But we were preceded here by hundreds of intrusive news crews.

They say we'll create political distraction. But it has not been the NRA pressing for political advantage, calling press conferences to propose vast packages of new legislation.

They say, "Don't come here." I guess what saddens me most is how it suggests complicity.

It implies that you and I and eighty million honest gun owners are somehow to blame, that we don't care as much as they, or that we don't deserve to be as shocked and horrified as every other soul in America mourning for the people of Littleton.

"Don't come here." That's offensive. It's also absurd, because we live here.

There are thousands of NRA members in Denver and tens upon tens of thousands in the state of Colorado.

NRA members labor in Denver's factories, populate Denver's faculties, run Denver corporations, play on Colorado sports teams, work in media across the front range, parent and teach and coach Denver's children, attend Denver's churches, and proudly represent Denver in uniform on the world's oceans and in the skies over Kosovo at this very moment.

NRA members are in City Hall, Fort Carson, NORAD, the Air Force Academy and the Olympic Training Center. And yes, NRA members are surely among the police and fire and SWAT team heroes who risked their lives to rescue the students of Columbine from evil, mindless executioners.

"Don't come here?" We are already here. This community is our home.

Every community in America is our home. We are a 128-year-old fixture of mainstream America.

The Second Amendment ethic of lawful, responsible firearm ownership spans the broadest cross-section of American life imaginable.

So we have the same right as all other citizens to be here ... to help shoulder the grief... to share our sorrow ... and to offer our respectful, reasoned voice to the national discourse that has erupted around this tragedy

One more thing. Our words and our behavior will be scrutinized more than ever this morning. Those who are hostile toward us will lie in wait to seize on a soundbite out of context, ever searching for an embarrassing moment to ridicule us. So let us be mindful ... the eyes of the nation are upon us today.

Heston's full speech
 

---

Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
 
ummm, greatcod, i don't know if you're joking, but coulter and moore are about as opposite as they come.

and, soleilpie:

i don't think there is any excuse at all that you or anyone else could drum up, that would make me think it was okay for heston to hold an NRA rally in denver a mere ten days after the tragedy. i don't care what he says, or how sympathetic his words might appear.. what he did was cruel, insensitive, brutish, arrogant, and it just reeks of "well i'm an american and the 2nd amendment says i have this right and i can do whatever the hell i want, whenever i want."

he, like most other right-wing kajillionaires in this country, cares about the bottom line, and nothing else.
 

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Posted by Soleilpie (Member # 8481) on :
 
heiwalove

If you read all of what I've said and what Heston said, no rally was held.

It was only the annual meeting that he was legally bound to hold.

That was it. No rallies, not sporting events, no gun shows or dinners or luncheons.

And do you REALLY think Michael Moore cares about your health care?

He knows how to get people stirred and he knows that if he creates enough controversy, people will pay to watch it.

Now, like I said before, I have not seen this movie so I can't give an opinion about it specifically.

I truly hope that it's not a manipulation of information and that it's an actual documentary.
 

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Posted by meg (Member # 22) on :
 
Greatcod....I know you're joking but I do think you're right. Both of them make money off us voicing their political views.

They have more in common with each other than you or I would with either one of them.
 

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Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
 
i disagree. i truly believe that michael moore wants to help people, and cares a great deal. sure, he makes money off his work - but so do all of us. making political documentary films and writing books is what he does for a living. he SHOULD get paid for it, it's how he pays his bills.

moore is a real activist. he's put his reputation, livelihood, and freedom on the line time and time again in the name of what he truly believes is right. he got a boatload of americans (including four 9/11 rescue workers) free healthcare in cuba, for serious illnesses they hadn't been able to obtain any help for at all in the US. that is just one example of how he puts his money where his mouth is, so to speak. there are many, many more.

now, tell me what charlton heston and others of his ilk (and ann coulter, while we're at it) do to help people? NADA. they couldn't care less.

moore may be controversial, but he cares deeply about people and the welfare of this country. i, for one, am grateful to him.
 

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Posted by Soleilpie (Member # 8481) on :
 
It's not about what Charlton Heston or Ann Coutler provides for America.

This whole discussion is about manipulation of the truth. That's my whole problem with Moore.

I'm not a big fan of Charlton or anything.

I just get a bad taste in my mouth when anyone is less than honest.

Everyone's got to make money, but I'm not sure getting paid for propaganda is really an honest living.

I hope that "Sicko" is legit work and if that's the case, then he should definitely make the millions I'm sure he's hoping for.
 

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Posted by bettyg (Member # 6147) on :
 
did any of you see the first half-hr. of LARRY KING LIVE TONIGHT? i saw half of it.

LARRY was talking w/Michael Moore & Dr. Gupta exchanging barbs! Michael says gupta's numbers are wrong, etc.

it will be repeated 11pm, 2 am, 4 am, CST..might be after 4 am too! so you could set you vcrs if interested!
 

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Posted by Annxyz (Member # 9097) on :
 
Lymetutu:

You cite the examples of people who are not
considered " valuable" by the health care systems of other countries. what about the people HERE who can not afford $600.--
a month or more for a policy to cover them ?!
How about the millions of families who have their own business and CAN NOT AFFORD THE PRICE OF A POLICY TO COVER THEIR FAMILIES ?

What about the people here who have a preexisting illness and can not GET ANYONE TO INSURE THEM here in the good old USA?

One of the local area docs here drives a HUGE new hummer , just built a two million dollar home that he BRAGS about at the gym. This system
is sick . I may not be a liberal, but I am willing to try and be onjective and see the viewpoint of others . Our system is broken , and I see business owners and middle class people here EVERYWHERE who can not afford a major medical policy!

I went to visit with a lady who sells medicare supplement insurance policies. I was looking for a major medical policy , and asked her who her personal policy was with . She said " I can not afford a major medical policy.
I just have a catastrophic policy . "

When basic healthcare is not obtainable by
millions of people , and when the " industry providers " are getting hog nasty rich because every DAM- "therapy " prescribed costs through the nose , something is WRONG .

We have a system that is becoming unaffordable unless one is rich and affluent , and those who are in the "business " are getting rich
beyond reason while a lot of desperate folks
are left out in the cold . I see many , Many people here who lack coverage . It is a scary way to live !
 

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Posted by Soleilpie (Member # 8481) on :
 
Hi bettyg

I was able to watch Larry King and I found it really interesting.

Both sides walked away pretty even though Gupta had to keep pointing out that health care in France, Canada and the UK is not free.
 

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Posted by mtnwoman (Member # 8385) on :
 
Michael Moore NEVER said universal health care coverage will be free -- taxes will have to cover it.

But cutting the enormous wastes in administrative overhead from the thousands of insurance companies with ONE PAYER will greatly help to pay for it.

Maybe if we can stop shoveling our tax dollars to no-bid defense contractors and the Pentagon who can not account for TRILLIONS ( i can reference that!) of our tax dollars, we would have money to actually take care of our citizens -- like the other 37 industrialized nations.

It sure ain't free now! And it sure as heck is rationed now. Please, just see the movie and open your mind to information other than the corporate media want you to believe.

The insurance industry and big Pharma have BILLIONS riding on keeping people turned off to universal coverage.

Talk about manipulating the truth! They do it every day with multi-million dollar budgets that also allow them to "buy" our congresspeople and buy spots on TV around the clock.

They can't stand that a little upstart like Michael Moore is laying the stark dirty truth out for the world to see.

He is very brave for doing what he does. I applaud him. AND he references his assertions, www.michaelmoore.com.
 

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Posted by CaliforniaLyme (Member # 7136) on :
 
I cried during that movie!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

---

Posted by Soleilpie (Member # 8481) on :
 
mntwoman

On Larry King, Moore kept saying it was free and then later mentioned taxes.

But the point is he kept saying it was free and Dr. Gupta had to keep reiterating the fact that health care in those countries is not free.

It's similar to saying that the military gets free housing when in fact they don't.
 

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Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
 
what matters is that healthcare is free at the time you need it. THAT is what moore is talking about. obviously the money has to come from somewhere; he's not an idiot. in his movie he acknowledges that the french are 'drowning in taxes;' however, as he also clearly illustrates, it certainly doesn't seem to affect their quality of life in a negative way.

and mtnwoman is absolutely correct in her assertion that we already pay an insane amount of taxes here, but they're going to totally ridiculous things like a wasted pentagon budget, and killing people in iraq.

i honestly think you should see the movie; i think your mind will be blown wide open, and maybe, maybe even changed.
 

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Posted by kam (Member # 3410) on :
 
I saw the Larry King Show too with Moore and Gupta.

Even with my lyme brain, I figured they were not really using the air time wisely.

It would have been nice if they would have come up with identifying problems and coming up with possibly solutions.

I think they both agreed our system needs work.

I think this should be a major issue in the upcoming election along with education.
 

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Posted by groovy2 (Member # 6304) on :
 
Hi All

WoW --I have Never had a post get so
much Attention except for when I posted my
naked pictures -

The reaction is about the same tho --

Everybody Knows you dont get Anything for Free -
except my naked pictures --

Much of the Health problems of the US
could be Fixed with Early treatment --
-- think tooth decay --

As far as Speedy appointments to SEE
a doctor in the US --

Mine have Mostly been 2 to 6 week wait -

to See may LLMD it took One year -
and I was Very Very Very Lucky to get it --

I Look at things this way --

Lets say -
YOU have a Fire in Your House --

the garage is on fire and it is
going spread to the rest of Your Home
and Your Neighbors House Next Door --

The Fire Department shows up Quickly-
and are able to Save Half of Your Home
and keep Your Neighbors home from getting
Any Damage at All --

(This is Lucky because the neighbor lent
you his Lawn Tractor and it Was in
Your garage --)

The fire is out --- Lucky Lucky

The Firemen are helping Clean Up
and make Sure the fire is out For Sure

You are looking threw whats left of
your home --

OH Man it Looks Bad --

All the computer gear You use to
make a living is in a Big Glob on
what used to be your floor -OuCH

The Firemen are starting loading up
there gear-

Getting Ready for the Next Fire --

You are thinking -

What Am I Going to Do --

I have No Where to Live -

Half my stuff is Toast -- OH NO --

This is the worst Friday the 13th
I have Ever had except for last year-

The Fire Chief comes in to do a final
look threw --

Chief Jay tells You that he thinks the
fire was started by Kids doing
Bong Hits in the garage --

Chief Jay says its Really Sad about
All Your stuff burning up -OuCH

Chief Jay tells you that that he has
a couple of papers for you to sign -

The chief also says that there is a
man Crying out in the garage pointing
at what Looks Like maybe a lawn tractor -
Do you know him ?

The Chief hands you a paper and
points out a couple of things --

As you wipe the tears out of your eyes

Chief Jay says that the Total comes to
--- $37,000 ---

You say- WHAT --

What Do You Mean? --

Chief Jay says Look - Its All Right Here -

Standard Home Fire Puttin Out -$25,000

2000 gallons of Fire water --$6500

Flashing lights AND Siren - $6,495

Sodas we picked up on the way here- $5


Threw Your tears You say -

I Guess it Looks Right --


This could be the End of the Story-
-- But its Not --

Because in America We have decided
to Help Our Neighbors and Our Selves-

Thank that Great America
Benjamin Franklin for starting the First
Fire Departments and Post Office in the US --

He Knew that Important Things are done
Better when We All Pitch In Together --


So when You can Least Afford It -

YOU Dont get a Bill for $37,000

-- Chief Jay --


Ps-
- Go See SickO -->
 

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Posted by Greatcod (Member # 7002) on :
 
For better or worse, we live in the Age of Spin.
For truly complex issues like healthcare, it becomes almost impossible to fathom the truth.
I know that Medicine has saved my life twice, almost killed me once, and left me sick till the day I die. I don't quite know how to evaluate it.
I do know that in life threatening emergencies, they treat you first and ask questions about insurance later.
But with many other things, unless you have super insurace or enough money, you probably won't get the work-up you need to diagnose and treat your problems.
 

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Posted by surg (Member # 6937) on :
 
The problem with insurance companies is that they are the middleman between the patient and the doctor and they are doing that at a profit.

More money you pay for insurance is going to the insurance and not to your healthcare. Some fat cat sitting in a chair is making a huge salary.

If you cut out the middleman, the private insurance company, you more than pay for all the healthcare costs of all medical services in the United States. This is a fact. They are making that much money off of you. We don't need the
middleman.

Our healthcare system is 27th in the world. Not number one. We can do better.
 

---

Posted by groovy2 (Member # 6304) on :
 
Hi All

Below is 2 part video that fits in
with this Topic Reel Good --

The video explains how the Pharmaceutical Industry
has arraigned to sell 100s of Tons of medicine
to You for the Regular Price --

I guess its like going to the 7-11 and buying
40 thousand tons of candy bars at a $1.50 each

You can get them at the grocery store
for 5 for $1 --

But Hey
Its Only Candy and Your Life is not depending
on the Daily dose of Candy ? ---

$$$$ Jay $$$$


Click here to watch Part 2 Video -- ClicK here for Part One

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[ 15. July 2007, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: groovy2 ]
 

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Posted by Soleilpie (Member # 8481) on :
 
When I go to the doctor, I don't pay a dime. Would I tell someone that I get free medical care? No. So why in the world does Michael say it's free, even though it 'obviously" comes from taxes. It's a little misleading to keep using the word "free" even if he throws in the word "taxes."

Granted we pay much more in premiums than France probably pays in taxes for their Health Care but it's still not even remotely free in comparison to ours.

And hey, I'd be the 1st one to say that we need to fix our health care system. I'm just not a fan of Moore and his propaganda.

Don't take my disdain for Michael as a sign that I completely support our current system.

I'll definitely go see his movie. I've seen his other movies, so it's not like I'm closed minded. I just don't like any deception...no matter how minor it is.
 

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Posted by lymeout (Member # 8045) on :
 
I finally saw the movie and thought it was wonderful! I don't think Michael gave the impression that universal health care is free at all. In many of the interviews, taxes are mentioned. The term "free" is used when people are getting the service - and that is completly accurate! Nobody asks them whether they paid taxes before they are treated. As a matter of fact, there was an American interviewed who received treatment in France - free!

I think the message that came from many of the interviews was the concept of "we" as opposed to "me", that predominates in the countries he showcases. They realize that their taxes are paying for non-contributors, but they accept that. I would much rather pay more in taxes and have it help those less fortunate than pay outlandish prices for prescriptions, insurance ( only to be denied coverage!). We are making some greedy people ridiculously rich! And one thing that struck both my husband and me was the obvious savings, albeit small, of cutting out paperwork and middlemen!

I also found it ironic that the British guy said that democracy was the launching pad for their universal health care system!

I hope that we use this movie as a launching pad to challenge our government leaders at local, state and national levels to develop or support plans to move us toward health care for everyone. I intend to let my delegates and legislators know that my next vote will be contingent upon this!

I don't know how anyone could watch the piece about that poor woman being dropped off at the curb by a cab, still in her hospital gown, to leave her wandering around confused. For a hospital to do this goes beyond negligence; it is inhumane and criminal! This is America?

By the way, I saw a piece on Fox about the discussion between Moore and Gupta. They said they checked Moore's facts and found them to be correct; some of Gupta's were wrong! Try to get past your personal feelings for him and see this movie with an open mind.
 

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Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
 
lymeout - thank you!! i've given up on the thread in 'off topic;' your post here made me smile and breathe a sigh of much-needed relief.

there were so many times in the movie that i started crying - the hospital dropping off that woman on skid row in nothing but a hospital gown like she was so much garbage, just because she couldn't pay her bill.. yeah, that brought tears.

and the woman whose baby girl DIED of a simple bacterial infection, because the damn hospital she was rushed to by ambulance refused to treat her. why? because it was out of the mother's insurance network. the mother begged the doctors not to listen to kaiser (her insurance company), and to treat regardless - no dice. by the time the little girl was transferred to an in-network hospital several hours later, she had gone into cardiac arrest, and she died soon after. i can't even tell you how hard i cried over this. my heart is still broken and that mother's face will never leave my memory.

i agree with lymeout - PLEASE put aside your thoughts about michael moore and see this movie with an open mind. if you have a heart at all the film will affect you PROFOUNDLY.
 

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Posted by daystar1952 (Member # 3255) on :
 
I was wondering...did Moore mention one of the most important facts....that our goverment has become the evil corporations? It seems to me that this is one of the main points but if it was addressed then the entire premise for his movie......total government/corporate contol of personal health....wouldn't make much sense. So, I was wondering if he addressed this?

I think I am going to try and do more research on this. We know the government is intertwined with the vaccine companies and that they are trying to push unwanted vaccines on children and now adults. I must find out the names of past drug company CEOs that know have jobs in the Bush Administration. I think this is what we need to begin looking at.

Moore uses alot of emotionalism which is a tactic used to sway people in a specific direction. I don't onject to helping others but I think it should be done in more of an individual or town manner. Then one can keep better track and have more control concerning what is going on. Also, if our system leans more towards prevention, we won't need so much expensive healthcare. SICKO and others for socialized medicine are presenting this system as the only alternative to what we have.

In my opinion they have intentionally negatively
enhanced the bad traits of the current system in order to get us to beg for complete control by the government. This isn't just with healthcare. They are using the environment, terrorism, melding religions together...etc to eventually get us to accept World Government. We already have the European Union and they are working on the union of Canada, Mexico and the U.S. This type of manipulation and propaganda is called Social Engineering
 

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Posted by duke77 (Member # 5051) on :
 

quote:

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I haven't seen the movie yet, so I can't really give an opinion.

The only thing I can say is to be careful with the information given.

Moore is kind of a manipulator of information.
I don't trust the guy to tell you the truth, but I am open to watching the movie.

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Exactly, some of the information is very correct. Other info is not. Moore goes on to say how great Canada Health Program is and Americans are marrying Canadians just to get the health insurance. That is crap Canadas Health system has as many problems as ours or more.
 

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Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
 
just because universal healthcare is paid for by the taxpayers, doesn't mean the government would exercise any more control over our healthcare than they do right now.
 

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Posted by lymeout (Member # 8045) on :
 
Yes, the government is most involved in the profiteering of our healthcare system in many ways. But the most abhorrent to me is the money going from special interest groups to fund candidates. That drives everything that happens legislatively. Look at Hillary Clinton - now the second largest recipient of contributions from health related groups!

I spoke to some Canadians recently who supported the things he said in the movie. They have a chronically ill daughter and are very happy with the care she receives - all free. But Moore has specifically said that he doesn't think we should model solely after one country's system. He suggests studying each and taking what we think will work for our specific situation. I would go a step further and say we have always been known as a creative, problem-solving country. If we took the politics out of it, we could come up with a system unique to our needs and conditions.

Even though his movie paints a rosy picture of the French, Canadian and British systems, he has said in interviews that they have their flaws. But I don't think any of us can deny that we are a superpower country, and that our hospitals are turning sick people away, allowing them to die. This is unacceptable.

What was stated in the movie that I want to take issue with is the observation that we are intimidated by our government, that we are afraid to speak up, make waves! Say it ain't so! Have we started to lose our feistiness? Are we getting too complacent? Are we the new Roman Empire, content to eat our grapes and let the servants fan away the flies? Not happenin' in my house, but what about the multiple, multi-million dollar homes of those pharmaceutical and insurance ceo's!

Dialogue, people! Let's talk, and share facts and educate each other! Let's look for a candidate who isn't accepting contributions from these sleazes, grill him/her on healtha and environment views. And yes, hit all levels - local, state, federal!

Can you tell I didn't sleep last night? I will now dismount my sopabox and slink back into the real world of my dirty house and the noble task of cleaning it. Where are those servants when you need them!!
 

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Posted by Hides1 (Member # 6348) on :
 
I'm not a big fan or Michael Moore but if he gets the word out about Lyme then more kudos to him. I wrote him a while back when he was looking for insurance cases whereby care wasn't paid for. I sent them info on Lyme, how IV treatments are barely paid for and what us lymies go through to even try and get help.

I never heard anything from his crew or even a thank you. I encourage you all to write him. Perhaps in numbers we can all get him to listen. Wouldn't it be great if he made a movie on it? As long as it was factual of course....
 

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Posted by meg (Member # 22) on :
 
That was a question I had....for those that saw the movie, did he mention Lyme ANYwhere in his movie??
 

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Posted by charlie (Member # 25) on :
 
Happened to remember this post and just thought I'd toss it in...
------------------------------------------------------
dafje
Frequent Contributor
Member # 7121

posted April 01, 2005 01:27 PM
I don't understand why you call our system "free". It costs money, it's not free. And we have a million rules about what all the different insurances cover, so it's not free in that aspect either. And we still pay for the things that aren't covered. The only thing that's different is that people are forced to have at least some form of insurance. If they don't get an insurance and they are brought into hospital with their bones sticking through their skin they get treated and then have to pay for all the time they weren't insured plus a fine. The only thing that really is free here would be things like getting an abortion, for obvious reasons.
Posts: 185 | From: the Netherlands | Registered: Mar 2005 | IP: Logged
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....why don't you guys give up on this socialism crap? Let bureaucracy run your health care? bureaucracy is nothing but deputized kudzu.

NEW ideas please...it doesn't matter if it's 'fair' if it doesn't work in the first place. and trying to trump logic with emotion won't fly.


Charlie
 

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Posted by JeffM (Member # 8919) on :
 
I personally think we should have a form of Universal Healthcare.

But I don't think it will help us Lymies much, except for symptom treatment.

What we need is more research, more understanding of Lyme and the coinfections.

So I've lived in France. Their healthcare is good. But their society is troubled in different ways than ours.

I wish that as a society, and a very wealth country, we spent more money on health and education.

Of course Moore is biased. He says so himself. At least his agenda is transparent.

I wish he would make a movie on Lyme.
 

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Posted by LisaS (Member # 10581) on :
 
Today when I was walking out of the theatre after seeing Sicko, there was this man talking on a cell phone. I heard him say to whom he was talking "Man, over here in America, all they care about is money."

I tapped him on his shoulder and said, its not all Americans, it's the greedy politicians and Doctors...

I asked him where he was from, and he said Nigeria. He's a student and was sent over here to study America. I Told him a little about the controversy with Lyme and how hard it is for us to get treated at all, even if you have money.
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Don't know what happened to my post yesterday.....

Anyway, I got the following via e-mail the other day. I have dial-up so have not checked it out to see if the link works......

``You can watch Michael Moore's documentary film "Sicko" on the web, in its entirety at

...... [Edit note: Well, the link I originally posted was wrong. I'm in the process of trying to get a corrected link, if there is one. Sorry about that to those who tried to click on it.]

The good thing about the movie is that it raises a lot of valuable questions about our failed medical system, the bad thing about it is that it proposes Universal Health Coverage for a failed system, without recognizing that it IS a failed system! ``

I'm willing to give MM a chance with Sicko, even though he was totally out to lunch on his previous film.

Too often, MM is just a far-left pundit for the socialistic mainstream media, spinning the facts to fit his agenda; certainly nothing new there. I get so tired of being manipulated - tired of `hearing' on the Denver news about a deadly shooting with a .22 caliber revolver, and yet `seeing' a picture of a .223 `assault weapon' on the screen. Purposeful disinformation and manipulation. Conditioning Americans to fear guns and ALL the people who own them. And people are taking the bait.

I totally agree with Soleilpie and others here.

Guns cause crime ...... just like spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat.

`The people' should be calling for actual criminal control, not gun control. I assure you, my guns will never harm any law-abiding person..... unless some criminal comes along and steals them.....

Just like this health care mess, we need to put our focus on the REAL problems or a national health care system will be worse than what we have now.

IMHO, all health care-related enterprises should fall under the category of `essential services' - much like most utility companies - and as such, there should be caps on profits and management salaries, etc.

Tracy

[ 17. July 2007, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: Truthfinder ]
 

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Posted by MagicAcorn (Member # 8786) on :
 
Tracy said:

Guns cause crime ...... just like spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat.



 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Thanks Carol (and others who PMed me) for pointing out the erroneous link.

I edited my above post, and if there is a correct link, I will post it here when I get it.

Tracy
 

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Posted by tailz (Member # 10014) on :
 
I agree with Lymout. What good is a kid's education if he can't get a tooth fixed? And why stop at kids?

It seems government tries to 'prove' it cares about us by focusing on the kids and elderly in this society, ignoring a huge chunk of people in between who don't fall into either category.

ALL life is important. People of ALL ages deserve health. I don't care if you are a self-induced alcoholic living on a street corner. Somehow I think even those poor souls are there because they saw that as their only option, so I don't really blame them, but rather society.

We are seriously underestimating our power here. If there's a problem with government, it's because we've accepted that things are the way they are because they were the way the were and always will be.

I don't buy it. We need a revolution here of some kind.
 

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Posted by groovy2 (Member # 6304) on :
 
Hi All

Here is a video that has the intro
from the Bill O Really show on SickO

Enjoy--Jay--

Click here for Video
 

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Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
 
OH NO.. it's TC!

The totally ignorant politcal outcast... and she has an opinion! Who let HER out of the cage?

YIKES!



If you are sick and WANT to go to a doctor.. go. It's now free. Sick visits, mental health services, alcohol and drug rehab, wellness visits, annual exams, child care, dentist visits, eye doctors, emergency room visits, etc.

No need for pre-approvals, referrals or having to see "in plan" doctors. Your choice of services. No paperwork. No denials.

ALL of our veterans will get quality care at the same fine places that the most wealthy would have access to now.... for free also.

The disabled and poor will have the same access as everyone else.

If medicine is required... no problem. No co-pays, no overpricing, no need for generic.. it's free... to EVERYONE.

And quality care will be provided to you in YOUR neighborhood... or you can go anywhere else to find help. Better doctors will make better money. The way it SHOULD be now.

Doctors will be voted into a community (if they want them there) and will be paid based on the 3 point system. All will get the same basic salary. When each patient leaves the office (1/2 to 1 hour visits per patient) they will rate the doctor.

1 point is a NO bonus. 2 points is a small bonus. 3 points is a bigger bonus. This is for 1/2 hour appointments. For 1 hour visits.. the patients will give points 2 times.

If that isn't enough money for them.. they can do what one of my doctors did because the community was very small. He painted houses in the day time and doctored at night.

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So HOW can free health care be accomplished?

I KNEW you would ask....

Tomorrow morning when you wake up...

There will be no such thing as insurance.

Done. Gone. No more.

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So how will we pay for medical care you ask?

I know.. I know!!!

It will be a part of the new tax system. Ditch the old one completely.

Forget deductions.. forget loop holes.... forget tax shelters ... forget it all.

EVERYONE will pay the exact same percentage from their income... whatever income they have.

20 percent.

10 percent of the collected tax money will go to the local county government. There will be County Commissioners .. 5 men and 5 women.. who will be voted in each year on election day. They will put the money to the best use for their communities.. with community input.

You need a new road.. ok. You need a new hospital... ok. A new school, repairs in the park, new water plant... ok. Anything for the public good for a county will be funded through the county. Busses for kids, a baseball field? You decide. Prescriptions, doctors, MRI's, whatever.. will all be paid by the county to keep the community healthy.

Private industry can flourish for all other goods and services.

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5 percent of the 20 percent tax money will go to the state. They will pay for the "good of the people of the state" projects. No one will be homeless, no one without food. Seniors will have decent housing and appropriate care.. and all children will have quality child care before and after school if needed.

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5 percent will go to the Federal Government to take care of our military, supreme courts, natural disasters, etc.

Let THEM learn to live on a tight budget for a change!

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EVERONE will also pay 5 cents on a dollar for ALL purchases... food (hot or cold)... gas... alcohol... cars, houses, etc.

That money will be put in savings. 1/2 will be allowed to be used for additional projects which will be shared equally among all states IF needed. The other 1/2 stays put for a rainy day.

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Sooooooooooooooooooo.. there you have it.

Any more problems?

Just let me know. I HAVE the answers.


 

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Posted by LisaS (Member # 10581) on :
 
There's already some ideas in motion on how to achieve this kind of health care, check out this link http://www.myspace.com/onecarenoworg
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
You are right, Tailz - we do need a revolution. This was NOT the system our forefathers envisioned.

Apparently, the link I posted earlier - where SICKO could be viewed - only worked for a short time. The video has now been removed from the site.

Oh, well. I'm sure it violated copyright laws anyway so best we just pay our money if we want to see the film.

Tracy
 

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Posted by MagicAcorn (Member # 8786) on :
 
Tracy said:

You are right, Tailz - we do need a revolution. This was NOT the system our forefathers envisioned.

Please educate me what health care system did our forefathers envision??????
 

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Posted by groovy2 (Member # 6304) on :
 
Hi All

Below is a interview with Michael on
PBS Now --
the interview is on the PBS NOW web site--
10 minutes long

On the PBS page click on picture on right
side of page -- Jay --


Click here to watch video
 

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Posted by lymedad (Member # 8074) on :
 
Someone has to help me here -

What in the world does Michael Moore have to do with Medical Questions concerning Tick Borne Diseases?

You want to spend your time productively? Help get Scott Forsgen's website back on his posts.

www.betterhealthguy.com

Scott and his work have done more for the treatment of Lyme Disease than Michael Moore will ever do for us.
 

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Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
 
Soooooooooooooooo.................

I was giggling when I saw Lymedad's post in Medical about the better health guy ... shortly after I had glanced through that thread for the first time tonight.

I wondered if Lymedad knew BHG was in the middle of a controversy.

Looks like he did! HA!

Just so you know...

Purposely disobeying the rules is probably a bootable offense here. I don't want you out on your ear for it.. especially if you weren't warned or didn't know in advance.

From what was posted somewhere... Lou B is looking into the matter and should report back.

Maybe think two times about your new post and/or wait till after he responds to decide a course of action?

Your call. Just didn't want you here today... and hot tamale!


 

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Posted by bettyg (Member # 6147) on :
 
Lou B
Administrator
Member # 64
posted 20-07-2007
01:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi LymeNet Users,

I will read all the posts in this Topic thread, tomorrow when I'm NOT exhausted, and respond to any issues / concerns.

I do recall communicating with Scott in the past and reinforcing to him the LymeNet "no advertising" policy.

After I read / review, I'll insure the LymeNet board of directors (I'm a member) are informed.

Good night,

--------------------
Lou B
 

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Posted by RoadRunner (Member # 380) on :
 
poor people need to be insured in this country. health care should be better and for all people in U.S.A. no one should be without health care in U.S.A. rich or poor shouldn't make a difference everyone should have it.
health care in this country needs to get better no matter how it gets done.

RR
 

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Posted by Greatcod (Member # 7002) on :
 
One of the enormous problems with the current set up is that people who are poor and who have have no insurance avoid seeking treatment until they are really incapacitated. Then they get on
Medicaid for the expensive treatment of an advanced condition that might have been caught early and treat at much less cost.
 

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Posted by daystar1952 (Member # 3255) on :
 
I finally saw SICKO yesterday and it was basically what I thought it would be. MM exposed the horrendous problems with our healthcare BUT he portrayed socialized medicine to have no flaws whatsoever. Everything was so gleefully free. Government people would come in free to watch your children, cook your meals and even do your laundry. I found this hard to believe,

An accurate helpful documentary should show the good and bad sides to a system. MM's agenda is definitely Universal Healthcare where the government has complete control over your health.

I posted my concerns...on a doctors list about how MM portrayed France's healthcare system to be utopic. A doctor from France wrote back to the list saying....don't worry...it's not like that in France. She was disabled and there was no free help for her. No one came to her home. She says the laws are on the books in France but it is imposssible to implement them. There is just not enough money for all that.

I think there are more than 2 solutions to any problem. Our so called healthcare certainly does need a restructuring. Unfortunately I think it will need to collapse first before we can rebuild a healthy healthcare system. We need to be very careful...more so than in the past.

The government has many orwellian technologies at hand to take total control of us if we let them. So, I forget which one of you said it but inm a way we are all responsible for the predicament our country is in. We just let the government "take care" of us without suspicion.

We need to examine why we are all so sick and require this enormous amount of healthcare to begin with. I think that a refined diet, chemicals in the environment, vaccines and designer germs all play a role.

We probably also need to concentrate on the causes of disease while we fight for our freedoms. We don't want a socialized version of what we already have.....no prevention and just treating the symptoms
 

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