posted
I haven't seen the movie yet, so I can't really give an opinion.
The only thing I can say is to be careful with the information given.
Moore is kind of a manipulator of information. I don't trust the guy to tell you the truth, but I am open to watching the movie.
-------------------- The best index to a person's character is how he treats people who can't do him any good, and how he treats people who can't fight back. -Abigail van Buren (Pauline Esther Friedman) (1918-2002) Posts: 409 | From Florida | Registered: Dec 2005
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groovy2
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Yep you should go see the movie -- then check out what is stated in the movie --
Also Read Michael - Bio --
You will be surprised the Many good things Michael has done--
Its starting to lightning here I got to go --Jay--
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Boomerang
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I just read through the other thread that was linked. What a good read. Lots of good points about healthcare in other countries.
I'm not a fan of M. Moore, so I won't bother seeing the movie. I feel he distorts the truth too much. jmho
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groovy2
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Hi All
Just had a big lighting storm blow threw- It was Loud --
Well there has been 2 folks here say Michael twists the truth--
Give me a example --
Have you seen any of his movies?
--Jay--
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kelmo
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posted
I saw his first one where he went back to his home town of Flint Michigan. I think he did a great job with that. Poor Flint is still a mess.
From what I've seen of the previews for Sicko, his direction always cracks me up. It is true, our health care system needs help.
HOWEVER, a BIG HOWEVER, I'm not ready to jump on the universal national health system. From those I know personally, they come here for care.
Take it, process it, and balance it. I do not want the Hillary Health Care package. I really, really like to choose my own doctors.
posted
Jay, I always enjoy reading your posts. you are amusing!
Even Michael Moore's critics say his facts are not skewed.
I am so disgusted with the fact that health care is provided by a special interest group that has a monopoly and is empowered by HUGE donations to the party in power . ( Don't get mad at me! I have always been a Republican. ) The " providers" have no conscience in many instances .
Everyone hates the idea of universal health care, but medicare is an example of universal care that seems to work fairly well.
I do not see why we can not have some type of AFFORDABLE Insurance for everyone. No one should be " uninsurable" .
The docs do not want any regulation of their fees or charges . The drug companies want no regulation of their profits . The insurance companies want to make as much money as possible, taking big premiums and always having " exclusions" in their coverage , then dumping people when they get sick and need treatment . The AMA does not want too many doctors because it might lead to competition in fees .
I may not like everything about Moore , but his point of view is worth hearing , even conservatives say he makes valid points.
Maybe our country would have money to create a system of affordable insurance if it were REALLY a priority ! Or if we were not busted financially from crossing the earth to kill our enemies ( How can we kill ALL of them ? That is a LOT of people! ) Wars are soooooooooo expensive!
NOT ONE of the Republican candidates even mentions reforming health care in the debates ! The problem is not acknowledged by the GOP faces . Don't get mad - I am a {disillusioned] Republican.
daystar1952
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posted
I want to write an article about controlled opposition groups sometime. These are groups or individual people who infiltrate organizations or even create new ones in order to lead the people astray to profit their own agenda.
The government project, COINTELPRO, was and still may be an example of this.
As we all know government in our country has become a conglomeration of corporations..especially the medical industry. I was leary when I heard about SICKO coming out. I have not seen it yet and I'm sure that MM does an excellent job of exposing the crimes of the Medical Industrial Complex. In and of itself this is a good thing. However the whole point of the movie is to push socialized medicine...which we almost are already immersed in anyway.
So, the point for us should be to examine what the heathcare is really like in these countries MM tells us have so much better healthcare than we do. We should also really think hard as to how MORE GOVERNMENT(really corporations)control could benefit us.
I think we would have mandated vaccines, microchips and more drugs which still only control the symptoms. Doctors would be even MORE controlled under the system than they are now, if that's even possible. Everything would be controlled by government/corporations.
It seems to me that that TPTB are using Problem -Reaction- Solution to get us to beg for the very solution they want implemented. Government creates a problem of horrendous health care, they expect us to complain and get very angry. Then they discreetly hire someone to make it look as if they are exposing the WHOLE truth and perhaps present their solution (Government controlled health care in this instance).
The people will react with anger to the ideas presented (which may be MOSTLy true)and then demand the solution that the supposed exposer is giving. This makes it all very convenient for those in control and makes the people feel that they are demading a solution which they think is their own idea.
Concerning the book Lab 257...I feel that the same technique MAY have been used there. Michael Carroll did a good job exposing the laziness, sloth, some experimentation and the poor upkeep at the Plum Island Laboratories. As I was reading the book I was trying to be aware of what the main solution was going to be.
Carroll tells us that the private companies which took care of the security and maintenance at Plum Island were totally not doing their job. He also tells us that there were germ warfare experiments done out there under govt. auspices.
I attended his book signing in CT and sat in the front row. I asked him questions during his talk and when he got to the part where he said that the Government should have complete control of the island, I raised my hand and asked"Why on earth would we want more or total control by the government when it was the government who caused many of these problems in the first place?" He stopped for a minute and said well you have a good point there.He continued by saying that his thoughts were that the government had more money so that more would be spent on upkeep.I just don't buy that theory or that solution.I am always leary of those who are supposed to be exposing the truth and somehow manage to get such good mainstream media coverage.The media is also ownwd by government/corporations.They will only allow their propaganda. If they feel people are getting too close to the truth they will set up people who look as if they are exposing. Carroll and MM both have had wide exposure on mainstream media.
Even tho I was mentioned in the acknowledgements of that book and that I think he did a good job of exposing certain things...I don't agree with where the whole book took us.We have to evaluate the solutions which are given and try to determine the actual point of the book or movie or Hearing
Back to MM for just a minute. F 9-11, I feel used a similar tactic. MM exposed many of the Bush crimes and said that Bush and administration probably knew that 9-11 was going to happen and ignored the warnings so they could implement their own agenda BUT nowhere was it mentioned that certain factions of our own government could have orchestrated the whole terrorist event.
The 9-11 Hearings did the same thing. Nothing was ever mentioned that the government itself could be complicit in that horrendous crime
Our healthcare system needs a total revamping. I'm not sure how that can be done but I don't feel that the answer is total government control. The government doesn't love us and it is intertwined with corporations so even with so called socialized medicine, they are still going to find ways to use the people to make money and maybe even control the population explosion at the same time.
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luvs2ride
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Is the movie only targeting insurance companies? How disappointing. Insurance is only 1/2 of the "for profit" industry driving our medical care.
The pharmacutical companies are the other half. Neither one should be in charge of finding and applying cures, treating illness and providing preventive care.
Luvs
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I've seen most, if not all of his "documentaries." My husband hates that I give this man even one cent but I try to be open minded.
As for the manipulations:
Moore talked about Bush and the Bin Laden family ties as if Bush was Osama's best friend is incorrect. Osama was disowned by his family and Saudia Arabia wanted him arrested.
The information that the US let the Bin Ladens leave the US during the no-fly period after 9/11 was completely incorrect per the 9/11 Commission and Richard Clarke.
Moore also stated that the Bin Ladens were allowed to leave before being interviewed by the FBI, which is also incorrect.
I've read somewhere that they didn't actually leave the US until 9/22.
Moore's good at showing a footage of someone saying something and taking it out of context by not showing the whole footage.
For example, when he showed Rumsfeld basically saying that people get told things every day that don't happen and yet people don't care, which alluded that he and the gov't lie all the time.
In actuality Rumsfeld was talking about the press printing information based off of rumors because they're overly eager to get a story out and the public believing it because it's in print.
I think the best manipulation I saw was when Moore made Charlton Heston out to be unsympathetic to the shootings at Columbine by holding a NRA pro-gun rally in Denver just after the shootings occurred.
Moore shows him holding up a rifle saying ``I have only five words for you: from my cold, dead, hands.''
Moore also shows that the Mayor of Denver doesn't want Heston there and Heston saying, ``I say to the Mayor, this is our country, as Americans we're free to travel wherever we want in our broad land. Don't come here? We're already here!''
So all of this portrays Heston as making it a point to show up and push guns just after the Columbine shootings.
First of all, Heston did not come rolling into Denver making a huge ruckus. Moore in his nasty way took the ``out of my cold hands'' speech from a speech Heston had given a YEAR LATER in North Carolina as a thank you when he was given a handmade musket at their annual meeting.
In reality, it was just an annual NRA meeting (not a gun rally/demonstration) that had been scheduled years in advance and since it's a non-profit organization out of NY, it is apparently regulated that an annual meeting must take place and the time & place cannot be changed on short notice without a 10-day notice once it is set.
Charlton Heston ended up canceling all of the sporting events, luncheons, dinners, seminars, workshops, exhibits etc but kept the meeting itself scheduled, which he had no choice.
They scheduled only what was legally required.
The part of Heston telling the mayor that they're free to travel and that they're already there was a bunch of different speeches spliced together.
From what I gather, the footage spliced together was covered by showing the listening audience for a few seconds in between each shot of Heston.
If you watch Bowling for Columbine during this speech, you'll see that Heston's shirt changes from a purple tie & lavender shirt to a white shirt & red tie. Hmmmm.
The speech to the Mayor wasn't even to the Mayor. In his speech he was talking about the NRA members. ``NRA members are in City Hall, Fort Carson, NORAD, the Air Force Academy and the Olympic Training Center. And yes, NRA members are surely among the police and fire and SWAT team heros who risked their lives to rescue the students at Columbine. Don't come here? We're already here. This community is our home. Every community in America is our home..."
When Heston said, "I said to the mayor..." it wasn't about the NRA but in reference to his own WWII vet status, which of course Moore doesn't show:
"I said to the mayor, well, my reply to the mayor is, 'I volunteered for the war they wanted me to attend when i was 18 years old. Since then, I've run small errands for my country, from Nigeria to Vietnam..."
Anyway, there's a ton more, but I think you should get the gist of what I mean by him being a manipulator of information. It really borders on lying and that's putting it mildly.
-------------------- The best index to a person's character is how he treats people who can't do him any good, and how he treats people who can't fight back. -Abigail van Buren (Pauline Esther Friedman) (1918-2002) Posts: 409 | From Florida | Registered: Dec 2005
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heiwalove
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soleilpie, the government of this fabulous country lies A HELL OF A LOT MORE than michael moore ever has or could.
and the difference? the US government's lies are costing thousands and thousands (millions, arguably) of lives around the world.
i just saw Sicko and it was AMAZING. i cried, i laughed, i got p***** off, but mostly i cried - so, so hard.
anyone who has been through the ringer of our so-called healthcare system (and i assume that since we all have lyme disease, we have all had some pretty horrible experiences) should DEFINITELY see this movie.
LisaS
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posted
I dont understand how anyone could knock a man who is fighting for all the same things most of us lymees are. The truth! He is exposing our government for what it is. God bless him for having the Ba!!s to do this!
hardynaka
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posted
I find it amazing how some of you guys seem to still believe Bush and Rumsfeld went to Irak to save the Irakian people or to prevent new terrorist attacks??
Come on guys. Stop consuming Fox news and CNN.
No one in the world, except some of you guys and some of your fellow British friends believe this story.
Are you all happy with your health insurance system? You must be rich to be satisfied.
Happy with the guns' lobby too?
If yes, you must be happy too with what will soon happen in 2009 with another lobbying against alternative treatment, against free choice of vitamins, suplements, herbs, organic food.
Because ORGANIC FOOD and FREE CHOICE of vitamins and supplements will be considered ILLEGAL in your country some time soon, imposed by another 'good caring lobying' of big corporations.
Just see a post I did today.
And these corporations want to impose those guidelines to us here in Europe and around the world through the WTO ?
Do I want more pesticides, hormones, antibiotics in my food to make me still more sick than I already am? Give me a break!
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
SiCKO was fantastic -- I urge everyone to see it. Kudos to Michael Moore for taking on this life-denying industry.
RE it's accuracy, per CNN,
quote: We found that his numbers were mostly right, but his arguments could use a little more context. As we dug deep to uncover the numbers, we found surprisingly few inaccuracies in the film
I know it was hard for CNN to acknowledge the accuracy of Moore's film, given the huge $$ dollars they take in advertising from Big Pharma and the insurance industry.
By the way, for those uncomfortable with Moore's exposition on 9/11, see here for his line by line factual backup of references for 'FAHRENHEIT 9/11' , http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/Posts: 211 | From NC | Registered: Dec 2005
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groovy2
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Hi All
Yep SickO is mostly about Medical Insurance - Its 2 hours long already -Lots left to cover-
Soleilpie -I will look into what you listed -
I think Everyone should See SickO --
I dont know Anyone who is Happy with things now -
Today the Presidents approval ratings are the Lowest of Any President in History -- -- Lower then Nixon --Ouch--
The Rest of government is not Far Behind -
Greed and Stupidly are Wide Spread --
All of my relatives are Republicans -
7 yrs ago they were Happy - Ho Boy -
Now they are Super Mad --
My father who never listened to political things any farther than the Jingles has now started paying attention -- He is Really Mad --
All I can say is its- About Time -
The only Good thing I can See in Me having Lyme is I have had the Time to be more Knowledgeable than Most Americans - Ouch -
More people in the US Voted for American Idol than for president -- SAD --
( I have not spent One second of my life watching -- AI -- )
Why are the Romans Gone --
Because they did not Pay Attention --
Go See SickO --
I give it 8 Groovy Thumbs Up --
I really like - PBS FrontLine too -- its Very Good --
The PBS FrontLine can be watched OnLine its Free -- from PBS TV -- Large amount of interviews with people involved in the subject - Hi Quality information -
References shown Further reading ect--
The hour long shows are Very Interesting- there is 35 or so programs - different topics --
Several are on Health issues ect
You will Like -- I Do --
I have to give PBS FrontLine a Really Big Pile of Thumbs Up -
A slightly bigger pile than will fit in the trunk of your car -- Squeeze --
-- Jay --
[ 10. July 2007, 12:56 AM: Message edited by: groovy2 ]
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heiwalove
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i disagree that socialized medicine would be 'very bad.' it isn't perfect but by most available accounts (excluding lyme disease, because lyme seems to be an anomaly everywhere), it is SO much better than what we have here. we are the only industrialized nation without universal healthcare. our infant mortality rate is worse than that of el salvador. and, by and large, people in countries with socialized medicine live A LOT longer than people do here.
i can't help but think that the aversion to universal healthcare (or so-called 'socialized medicine') is really reminiscent of cold war era 'red scare' tactics. ("ohmygod COMMIES!!")
and, btw, you can have a system of socialized medicine and still have the option for people who can afford it to choose their own private care. my roommate is from england, and that's how they do it there. she far prefers their system to ours, and plans to move back eventually because she refuses to raise children in a country that won't provide for them.
1) After having seen like 35 doctors - still without a diagnosis, they would have thought - gee, we better cure her - it's sure costing us a lot. Or...
2) Had I had to sit around and wait to see specialists and ended up dying, well then there would be lots of us dead by now, and that would speak volumes about how serious Lyme really is.
I'll tell you this much - whether I had seen 35 docs or just one, I have no doctor to thank. 'I' figured out I had Lyme, not them - so something desperately needs to change here.
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Boomerang
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Well said, Soleiol. We don't need socialized medicine in this country.
Did any of you read the other linked thread, about people in other countries with heart disease at age 75? People told they weren't treatable or "worth healing" at that age? To me, that is despicable.
I'm just glad my 92 year old Grandma never had to hear that type of logic before she passed away.
When a country, insurance company or health care system decides at what age people are expendable, we are all in big trouble.
I agree the US needs do something about healthcare costs in this country. But socialized medicine is not the answer.
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groovy2
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Hi All
Here is short list of some common Socialized parts of America at the Moment and for the last 100 years or so
American Military - All Branches
American School System K thru 12-
Thousands of miles of American roads- Highways
American Airports and Air traffic control
The US Post Office -
Thousands of American Collages -
American Bridges and Dams --
Early Rail Roads - Amtrak -
American Park System -
American Water Ways -
NASA - FBI - CIA - NSA - ICE ect
The List of Socialized things is Perty Long when you think about it --
Who was it that said - It takes a Village ?
She is Right -- It Dose --
Everything on the List above was thought to be Important Enough by the Citizens of the - United States -- to Pitch in Together for the Good of All - and Get the JOB Done --
Having Healthy Citizens Seems as Important as Any of the Others Listed --
-- Jay --
Ps Go See SickO
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daystar1952
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That would be fine if their goal was to keep us healthy but health does not make profits for the drug companies. Drug companies and insurance companies are intricately interwoven with the government. So, with more government control, we will probably have even more sickness
I think there is nothing wrong with "it takes a village" as long as it is individuals independantly helping each other or in small town units. We should not be forced into community service, mandatory harmful vaccinations, drugs which only control the symptoms while at the same time creating more...etc.Everyone should read or reread Brave New World and 1984. It is becoming a reality.
I got a newsletter from Mercola this morning and he says that Moore is exposing much medical crime...and that's good but that doesn't mean that his solution is automatically the answer. We need to take back control of our own healthcare....not give away even more control of it. That's pretty scary. Our health is our most basic and intimate resource. It's part of who we are. Why would we want some unfeeling, uncaring huge conglomerate which is trying to keep up with it's required population reduction numbers, to be responsible for something as personal as our healthcare?
I can see that people are in immediate trouble now, and something has to be done. Mercola suggests that the medical system may be good for things like trauma but even then , if you have to wait in that case, that wouldn't be too good either. He suggests reform by the people and more in natural preventative way. Somehow we need the people themselves, not the corporation/government, to decide how to reform the healthcare system
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daystar1952
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If people feel strong enough, I suggest that you read the following. There is also part two and three which you can click on at the bottom of each page http://www.sweetliberty.org/nobarbarians1.htm
There is no way to tell for sure if this "talk" really happened but the point is the things talked about here are coming true.....and ....if we are aware of how we are being manipulated then we can hopefully reverse the situation by being informed and not falling into the deception trap.
We can only be controlled through deception because there are more of us than those who want to take control of the world. This is why propaganda is so important and why the media is almost now totally owned by those in control. We need to see through the double talk, the controlled opposition and just the fact that we are being horrendously manipulated
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quote: The guy is known for twisting information around.
LOL! Unlike FOX "News", or CNN, or the Bush Administration? Remember "WMD"? "mushroom clouds"?
Only problem with your assertion is that Michael Moore backs up his movies with references that are free for all to see, www.michaelmoore.com
The corporate water carriers have done a good job of getting a "I don't want socialized medicine" response out of some of you when we talk of universal health coverage.
Universal health coverage is "socialized" insurance administration in the sense that rather than have 100's of redundant, byzantine, confusing insurance companies, there would be just ONE administrative overhead.
Just like Medicare, you can still see whatever doctor you like under universal health coverage, but administrative costs would plummet and make more health care available to more people.
Rather than believe FOX and CNN, why not see the movie before you cast judgement?
[p.s. I sure wish these so-called journalists would have done some fact checking on Bush's claims back in 2002! Guess they gotta save their faulty fact checking for a movie -- a war doesn't justify it...]
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daystar1952
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I think that the point is that the Government IS the corporations. The further we go towards this mixture, the less control doctors have over their practice. It may appear that we can go to any doc we want under medicare but what good is it if all the docs are controlled and can't prescribe what we need? I think that's the main point
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heiwalove
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right on mtnwoman!
for those who want a direct link, here is michael moore's page of fact references for Sicko. you can scroll down a bit and click on 'Bowling for Columbine' or "Fahrenheit 9/11" to see his references for those two films.
moore is SO used to being baited by the mainstream press and by conservatives, he makes sure to do his homework, and he does it well.
posted
Jay, I like the list of socialized services! I have always been fearful of socialized medicine; but what I fear more is reading about another child dying of an infection from a decayed tooth! Healthcare for everyone should be our highest priority - even above education! What good did this child's education do him when he couldn't go to a dentist to take care of that tooth?
If we can't trust our government, it is because we, as a people, aren't doing our job in electing officials and holding them accountable! If we spent less time watching entertainment TV and more time keeping up with the issues and the activities of the people we elect, we could probably construct a fantastic healthcare system and a better balanced medical research program to boot! I am at the top of the list of guilty citizens who don't vote responsibly, especially at the local level.
In this age of internet, we could throw the political parties for a loop if we wanted. If we don't like the candidates chosen by the party, we could mount a grass-roots via internet effort and elect an independent! We so underestimate our power. The difficulty is convincing people to put in the time, energy and effort to effect change.
Posts: 422 | From Herndon, Virginia | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Boomerang: Well said, Soleiol. We don't need socialized medicine in this country.
Did any of you read the other linked thread, about people in other countries with heart disease at age 75? People told they weren't treatable or "worth healing" at that age? To me, that is despicable..............
When a country, insurance company or health care system decides at what age people are expendable, we are all in big trouble.
The oddest of all the smears thrown at "Bowling for Columbine" is this one:
"The film depicts NRA president Charlton Heston giving a speech near Columbine; he actually gave it a year later and 900 miles away. The speech he did give is edited to make conciliatory statements sound like rudeness."
Um, yeah, that's right! I made it up! Heston never went there! He never said those things!
Or....
The Truth: Heston took his NRA show to Denver and did and said exactly what we recounted. From the end of my narration setting up Heston's speech in Denver, with my words, "a big pro-gun rally," every word out of Charlton Heston's mouth was uttered right there in Denver, just 10 days after the Columbine tragedy. But don't take my word - read the transcript of his whole speech.* Heston devotes the entire speech to challenging the Denver mayor and mocking the mayor's pleas that the NRA "don't come here." Far from deliberately editing the film to make Heston look worse, I chose to leave most of this out and not make Heston look as evil as he actually was.
Why are these gun nuts upset that their brave NRA leader's words are in my film? You'd think they would be proud of the things he said. Except, when intercut with the words of a grieving father (whose son died at Columbine and happened to be speaking in a protest that same weekend Heston was at the convention center), suddenly Charlton Heston doesn't look so good does he? Especially to the people of Denver (and, the following year, to the people of Flint) who were still in shock over the tragedies when Heston showed up.
As for the clip preceding the Denver speech, when Heston proclaims "from my cold dead hands," this appears as Heston is being introduced in narration. It is Heston's most well-recognized NRA image - hoisting the rifle overhead as he makes his proclamation, as he has done at virtually every political appearance on behalf of the NRA (before and since Columbine). I have merely re-broadcast an image supplied to us by a Denver TV station, an image which the NRA has itself crafted for the media, or, as one article put it, "the mantra of dedicated gun owners" which they "wear on T-shirts, stamp it on the outside of envelopes, e-mail it on the Internet and sometimes shout it over the phone." Are they now embarrassed by this sick, repulsive image and the words that accompany it? **
*(moore links to heston's speech in his letter; just click the link above and scroll down until you find it. or, better yet, read the whole letter.)
I just started checking out that site you sent so I'm not done, but the thing about Charlton Heston is funny because Moore says that he didn't show the whole speech in order to "not make Heston look as evil as he actually was.
Well, it actually shows Heston's compassion for Columbine. Read his speech at the end below.
I was incorrect in saying that the speech wasn't to the Mayor when it was but not in the way that Moore depicted it as...as if Heston was angry with him.
Also, Moore admits to putting the "From my cold, dead hands" in not because he actually said it that day in Denver but gave the excuse that he put it in there because it's "Heston's most well-recognized NRA image" and something he's done "at virtually every political appearance on behalf of the NRA."
I have a problem with Moore making Heston or anybody out to be what they're not.
Like I said before, Heston didn't come barging into Denver wielding his guns around, going out of his way to be unsympathetic to the Columbine incident.
I can't trust a person who manipulates information like that.
Here's Heston's speech in its entirety from Moore's site. ~~~~~ GOOD MORNING.
I want to welcome you to this abbreviated annual gathering of the National Rifle Association.
Thank you for coming and thank you for supporting your organization.
I also want to applaud your courage in coming here today. Of course, you have a right to be here.
As you know, we've canceled the festivities and fellowship we normally enjoy at our annual gatherings.
This decision has perplexed a few and inconvenienced thousands.
I apologize for that. But it's fitting and proper that we should do this ... because NRA members are, above all, Americans.
That means whatever our differences, we are respectful of one another and we stand united, especially in adversity
Wellington Webb, the mayor of Denver, sent me a message: "Don't come here. We don't want you here, "
I say to the Mayor, I volunteered for the war they wanted me to attend when I was 18 years old.
Since then, I've run small errands for my country from Nigeria to Vietnam.
I know many of you could say the same. But the Mayor said, "Don't come."
I'm sorry for that. I'm sorry for the newspaper ads saying the same thing. "Don't come here."
This is our country. As Americans we are free to travel wherever we wish in our broad land.
They say we'll create a media distraction. But we were preceded here by hundreds of intrusive news crews.
They say we'll create political distraction. But it has not been the NRA pressing for political advantage, calling press conferences to propose vast packages of new legislation.
They say, "Don't come here." I guess what saddens me most is how it suggests complicity.
It implies that you and I and eighty million honest gun owners are somehow to blame, that we don't care as much as they, or that we don't deserve to be as shocked and horrified as every other soul in America mourning for the people of Littleton.
"Don't come here." That's offensive. It's also absurd, because we live here.
There are thousands of NRA members in Denver and tens upon tens of thousands in the state of Colorado.
NRA members labor in Denver's factories, populate Denver's faculties, run Denver corporations, play on Colorado sports teams, work in media across the front range, parent and teach and coach Denver's children, attend Denver's churches, and proudly represent Denver in uniform on the world's oceans and in the skies over Kosovo at this very moment.
NRA members are in City Hall, Fort Carson, NORAD, the Air Force Academy and the Olympic Training Center. And yes, NRA members are surely among the police and fire and SWAT team heroes who risked their lives to rescue the students of Columbine from evil, mindless executioners.
"Don't come here?" We are already here. This community is our home.
Every community in America is our home. We are a 128-year-old fixture of mainstream America.
The Second Amendment ethic of lawful, responsible firearm ownership spans the broadest cross-section of American life imaginable.
So we have the same right as all other citizens to be here ... to help shoulder the grief... to share our sorrow ... and to offer our respectful, reasoned voice to the national discourse that has erupted around this tragedy
One more thing. Our words and our behavior will be scrutinized more than ever this morning. Those who are hostile toward us will lie in wait to seize on a soundbite out of context, ever searching for an embarrassing moment to ridicule us. So let us be mindful ... the eyes of the nation are upon us today.
-------------------- The best index to a person's character is how he treats people who can't do him any good, and how he treats people who can't fight back. -Abigail van Buren (Pauline Esther Friedman) (1918-2002) Posts: 409 | From Florida | Registered: Dec 2005
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heiwalove
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6467
posted
ummm, greatcod, i don't know if you're joking, but coulter and moore are about as opposite as they come.
and, soleilpie:
i don't think there is any excuse at all that you or anyone else could drum up, that would make me think it was okay for heston to hold an NRA rally in denver a mere ten days after the tragedy. i don't care what he says, or how sympathetic his words might appear.. what he did was cruel, insensitive, brutish, arrogant, and it just reeks of "well i'm an american and the 2nd amendment says i have this right and i can do whatever the hell i want, whenever i want."
he, like most other right-wing kajillionaires in this country, cares about the bottom line, and nothing else.
If you read all of what I've said and what Heston said, no rally was held.
It was only the annual meeting that he was legally bound to hold.
That was it. No rallies, not sporting events, no gun shows or dinners or luncheons.
And do you REALLY think Michael Moore cares about your health care?
He knows how to get people stirred and he knows that if he creates enough controversy, people will pay to watch it.
Now, like I said before, I have not seen this movie so I can't give an opinion about it specifically.
I truly hope that it's not a manipulation of information and that it's an actual documentary.
-------------------- The best index to a person's character is how he treats people who can't do him any good, and how he treats people who can't fight back. -Abigail van Buren (Pauline Esther Friedman) (1918-2002) Posts: 409 | From Florida | Registered: Dec 2005
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heiwalove
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6467
posted
i disagree. i truly believe that michael moore wants to help people, and cares a great deal. sure, he makes money off his work - but so do all of us. making political documentary films and writing books is what he does for a living. he SHOULD get paid for it, it's how he pays his bills.
moore is a real activist. he's put his reputation, livelihood, and freedom on the line time and time again in the name of what he truly believes is right. he got a boatload of americans (including four 9/11 rescue workers) free healthcare in cuba, for serious illnesses they hadn't been able to obtain any help for at all in the US. that is just one example of how he puts his money where his mouth is, so to speak. there are many, many more.
now, tell me what charlton heston and others of his ilk (and ann coulter, while we're at it) do to help people? NADA. they couldn't care less.
moore may be controversial, but he cares deeply about people and the welfare of this country. i, for one, am grateful to him.
posted
It's not about what Charlton Heston or Ann Coutler provides for America.
This whole discussion is about manipulation of the truth. That's my whole problem with Moore.
I'm not a big fan of Charlton or anything.
I just get a bad taste in my mouth when anyone is less than honest.
Everyone's got to make money, but I'm not sure getting paid for propaganda is really an honest living.
I hope that "Sicko" is legit work and if that's the case, then he should definitely make the millions I'm sure he's hoping for.
-------------------- The best index to a person's character is how he treats people who can't do him any good, and how he treats people who can't fight back. -Abigail van Buren (Pauline Esther Friedman) (1918-2002) Posts: 409 | From Florida | Registered: Dec 2005
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bettyg
Unregistered
posted
did any of you see the first half-hr. of LARRY KING LIVE TONIGHT? i saw half of it.
LARRY was talking w/Michael Moore & Dr. Gupta exchanging barbs! Michael says gupta's numbers are wrong, etc.
it will be repeated 11pm, 2 am, 4 am, CST..might be after 4 am too! so you could set you vcrs if interested!
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You cite the examples of people who are not considered " valuable" by the health care systems of other countries. what about the people HERE who can not afford $600.-- a month or more for a policy to cover them ?! How about the millions of families who have their own business and CAN NOT AFFORD THE PRICE OF A POLICY TO COVER THEIR FAMILIES ?
What about the people here who have a preexisting illness and can not GET ANYONE TO INSURE THEM here in the good old USA?
One of the local area docs here drives a HUGE new hummer , just built a two million dollar home that he BRAGS about at the gym. This system is sick . I may not be a liberal, but I am willing to try and be onjective and see the viewpoint of others . Our system is broken , and I see business owners and middle class people here EVERYWHERE who can not afford a major medical policy!
I went to visit with a lady who sells medicare supplement insurance policies. I was looking for a major medical policy , and asked her who her personal policy was with . She said " I can not afford a major medical policy. I just have a catastrophic policy . "
When basic healthcare is not obtainable by millions of people , and when the " industry providers " are getting hog nasty rich because every DAM- "therapy " prescribed costs through the nose , something is WRONG .
We have a system that is becoming unaffordable unless one is rich and affluent , and those who are in the "business " are getting rich beyond reason while a lot of desperate folks are left out in the cold . I see many , Many people here who lack coverage . It is a scary way to live !
I was able to watch Larry King and I found it really interesting.
Both sides walked away pretty even though Gupta had to keep pointing out that health care in France, Canada and the UK is not free.
-------------------- The best index to a person's character is how he treats people who can't do him any good, and how he treats people who can't fight back. -Abigail van Buren (Pauline Esther Friedman) (1918-2002) Posts: 409 | From Florida | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Michael Moore NEVER said universal health care coverage will be free -- taxes will have to cover it.
But cutting the enormous wastes in administrative overhead from the thousands of insurance companies with ONE PAYER will greatly help to pay for it.
Maybe if we can stop shoveling our tax dollars to no-bid defense contractors and the Pentagon who can not account for TRILLIONS ( i can reference that!) of our tax dollars, we would have money to actually take care of our citizens -- like the other 37 industrialized nations.
It sure ain't free now! And it sure as heck is rationed now. Please, just see the movie and open your mind to information other than the corporate media want you to believe.
The insurance industry and big Pharma have BILLIONS riding on keeping people turned off to universal coverage.
Talk about manipulating the truth! They do it every day with multi-million dollar budgets that also allow them to "buy" our congresspeople and buy spots on TV around the clock.
They can't stand that a little upstart like Michael Moore is laying the stark dirty truth out for the world to see.
He is very brave for doing what he does. I applaud him. AND he references his assertions, www.michaelmoore.com.Posts: 211 | From NC | Registered: Dec 2005
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CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
I cried during that movie!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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On Larry King, Moore kept saying it was free and then later mentioned taxes.
But the point is he kept saying it was free and Dr. Gupta had to keep reiterating the fact that health care in those countries is not free.
It's similar to saying that the military gets free housing when in fact they don't.
-------------------- The best index to a person's character is how he treats people who can't do him any good, and how he treats people who can't fight back. -Abigail van Buren (Pauline Esther Friedman) (1918-2002) Posts: 409 | From Florida | Registered: Dec 2005
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heiwalove
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6467
posted
what matters is that healthcare is free at the time you need it. THAT is what moore is talking about. obviously the money has to come from somewhere; he's not an idiot. in his movie he acknowledges that the french are 'drowning in taxes;' however, as he also clearly illustrates, it certainly doesn't seem to affect their quality of life in a negative way.
and mtnwoman is absolutely correct in her assertion that we already pay an insane amount of taxes here, but they're going to totally ridiculous things like a wasted pentagon budget, and killing people in iraq.
i honestly think you should see the movie; i think your mind will be blown wide open, and maybe, maybe even changed.
kam
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 3410
posted
I saw the Larry King Show too with Moore and Gupta.
Even with my lyme brain, I figured they were not really using the air time wisely.
It would have been nice if they would have come up with identifying problems and coming up with possibly solutions.
I think they both agreed our system needs work.
I think this should be a major issue in the upcoming election along with education.
Posts: 15927 | From Became too sick to work or do household chores in 2001. | Registered: Dec 2002
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groovy2
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6304
posted
Hi All
WoW --I have Never had a post get so much Attention except for when I posted my naked pictures -
The reaction is about the same tho --
Everybody Knows you dont get Anything for Free - except my naked pictures --
Much of the Health problems of the US could be Fixed with Early treatment -- -- think tooth decay --
As far as Speedy appointments to SEE a doctor in the US --
Mine have Mostly been 2 to 6 week wait -
to See may LLMD it took One year - and I was Very Very Very Lucky to get it --
I Look at things this way --
Lets say - YOU have a Fire in Your House --
the garage is on fire and it is going spread to the rest of Your Home and Your Neighbors House Next Door --
The Fire Department shows up Quickly- and are able to Save Half of Your Home and keep Your Neighbors home from getting Any Damage at All --
(This is Lucky because the neighbor lent you his Lawn Tractor and it Was in Your garage --)
The fire is out --- Lucky Lucky
The Firemen are helping Clean Up and make Sure the fire is out For Sure
You are looking threw whats left of your home --
OH Man it Looks Bad --
All the computer gear You use to make a living is in a Big Glob on what used to be your floor -OuCH
The Firemen are starting loading up there gear-
Getting Ready for the Next Fire --
You are thinking -
What Am I Going to Do --
I have No Where to Live -
Half my stuff is Toast -- OH NO --
This is the worst Friday the 13th I have Ever had except for last year-
The Fire Chief comes in to do a final look threw --
Chief Jay tells You that he thinks the fire was started by Kids doing Bong Hits in the garage --
Chief Jay says its Really Sad about All Your stuff burning up -OuCH
Chief Jay tells you that that he has a couple of papers for you to sign -
The chief also says that there is a man Crying out in the garage pointing at what Looks Like maybe a lawn tractor - Do you know him ?
The Chief hands you a paper and points out a couple of things --
As you wipe the tears out of your eyes
Chief Jay says that the Total comes to --- $37,000 ---
You say- WHAT --
What Do You Mean? --
Chief Jay says Look - Its All Right Here -
Standard Home Fire Puttin Out -$25,000
2000 gallons of Fire water --$6500
Flashing lights AND Siren - $6,495
Sodas we picked up on the way here- $5
Threw Your tears You say -
I Guess it Looks Right --
This could be the End of the Story- -- But its Not --
Because in America We have decided to Help Our Neighbors and Our Selves-
Thank that Great America Benjamin Franklin for starting the First Fire Departments and Post Office in the US --
He Knew that Important Things are done Better when We All Pitch In Together --
So when You can Least Afford It -
YOU Dont get a Bill for $37,000
-- Chief Jay --
Ps- - Go See SickO -->
Posts: 2999 | From Austin tx USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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I have been thinking about this for the past week and wanted to get it off my chest.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
but I do think you're right. Both of them make money off us voicing their political views.
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