quote:

---

I will continue to take and recommend whatever steps the ILADS group of doctors and scientists recommend.

---

quote:

---

This IS Lymenet, isn't it? Approved by the LDA? Who, last I looked, promotes ILADS guidance?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dmc:
Has anyone looked into this?

http://www.miraclemineral.org/

your opinions&experiences appreciated.

---

I checked out this website, and it is the most offensive scamming presentation I have seen in over one year of lyme treatment.

Please do not misinterpret me. I love and respect fellow lyme patients, and this is not scorn or mockery towards anyone who would try any treatment of any kind. I have tried things in the last year that previously I would not have believed. Any lymenetter that tries anything has my best wishes and deep concern.

No, my scorn and mockery is reserved for the folks who created this unbelievable "miracle mineral" website and are trying to profit off the suffering of others.

The folks who created this "miracle mineral" website know better. Gee, it cures AIDS in 3 days! How amazing that the entire global public health community, media, governments, and pharmaceutical companies have missed this miracle mineral!

Wow, and I guess it is good that they tested it in scientific "clinical trials" on prisoners in Malawi. Let's see what Amnesty International says about prison in Malawi:

Human Rights Concerns

In Malawi, reports of excessive police force against protesters have been common, as is the abuse of suspects in police custody. These forces act with impunity, and protestor and detainee deaths go largely unpunished.

The news media is often partisan, favoring one party with more airtime and exposure. Several presidential decrees have violated constitutional freedoms and have been overruled by the court; however, Amnesty International is concerned that constitutional freedoms may be compromised in Malawi.

More than 180 prisoners died in 2004 in Malawi, out of a prison population of 9,000. This large percentage is a cause of great concern for Amnesty International and other human rights organizations. The deaths were due largely to HIV, poor diet, overcrowding, unsanitary conditions, and medical neglect.

***

Guys, the prisoners in Malawi are lucky if they have blankets and food. If some "clinical trial" is forcing them ("voluntarily", I guess) to ingest sodium hypochlorite (ie., BLEACH), or sodium chlorite, an industrial chemical used in paper bleaching, then it may have well led to some of these prisoner deaths that Amnesty International is concerned about.

Please. If this could cure malaria in 4 hours, or AIDS in 3 days, as claimed, we would be hearing about it from other sources than this highly unsubstantiated website.

And oh, it is "the only thing that cures abcessed teeth"! Oh good, no need for dentists anymore, we have miracle mineral!

Rarely have I seen any "miracle cure" this offensive. If they have any data, they should share it with the world.

Again, I understand and respect any lyme patient trying anything. Thanks to the IDSA, we have too few options.

But, the information on that website is blatently and offensively false.
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Hi, Wallace - at least you were willing to give the seawater thing a try. I bumped up that old thread where you talked about the seawater..... I realized that there was lots of discussion on that thread that might be helpful to others new to the board.

D Bergy.... thanks for trying this. Sorry to hear about the barfing aspect of Crohn's. Don't you supposed there is some way to avoid being sick on this protocol..... by staying at a low dose of the ClO2 until you are sure you can handle another drop, for instance? I am NOT into puking, personally. Literally, my back problems don't tolerate that.

I understand, Vermont L. You have your concerns and stated the reasons for them. You (well except for your last sentence) and Oxygenbabe have done that.. I have many reservations about the claims and the product myself.

I don't consider it abuse regarding the studies at the prison in Malawi, but that's another can of worms altogether. We really don't have any direct information about that.

But not one of us has any facts proving that any of these claims are false - yet. We will have to let the scenario play itself out. Whether the product or claims are valid is not that important to me; what IS important here is the freedom to discuss the topic with some degree of decorum, and refraining from making unsubstantiated statements that something is false. That's just as bad as the website you may be criticizing! I believe that is referred to as hypocrisy.

Fact or fiction, we need to be able to discuss topics of this nature like adults.

Tracy
 

---

Posted by frakktured1 (Member # 13028) on :
 
I heartily agree....

that is like intelligent adults....

Not the kind that would make statements like "no evidence one way or the other makes it worth a try"....

The proponents for this farce are the same who have shown their willingness for anyone to try ANYTHING>..yet they do not!

Arguing for free speach or discussion is all well and good.
However,with free speach and discussion comes

responsability. The inteligence to pick subjects worth the time and energy expended to discuss bonafide remedies for the uninformed

newbies and some oldies alike. Such obvious frauds and scams of this nature should be labeled as such and no more discussion should be allowed by the administrators of this board.

However....as I have said previously on other threads, discussions do bring out the Pro's and Con's. So that anyone can readily identify the serious from the superfluous.

So in that respect the administrators may be acting on behalf of the people who come here seeking beneficial information concerning their disease/s.

FXD
 

---

Posted by Greatcod (Member # 7002) on :
 
I tried to download their Ebook, and all I got was a bunch of dots.
Actually, this product maybe an effective treatment for constipation. I was in the Army, and was a water purifaction guy. Any level of chlorine over 5ppm was likely to get people
"loose".
No Turd!
 

---

Posted by MagicAcorn (Member # 8786) on :
 
I'm just disgusted by the whole fecal matter!

pfft
 

---

Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
I should get the MMS next week sometime. I will use it very slowly and carefully, as I do not care to puke, if I can avoid it.

The very first thing I came across when I heard of Rife frequency therapy was Quack Watch. Now according to them, the self appointed watchdog group, this was a scam also. I consider it a good thing that I did not quite believe that a highly intelligent man spent a better part of his life developing a scam device. And in addition to that that, he developed a light microscope in the 30's that has only been rivaled recently. Especially since money was no worry to him.

By not writing it off, I found a very effective Lyme treatment. Not to mention other conditions I have used it for. Also many conditions in which it did not work.

Now we have MMS. It certainly does not have a brilliant man behind it. But, if one is going to invent a story, even I could come up with a better one than is presented. Now maybe it is a complete waste of time and the scam story is just that. But, if I would have tried to scam someone, I would have asked for much more money up front and would not have given sources so you could make it yourself. So, if it is a scam, it has to be one of the most poorly orchestrated scam I have seen.

None of that means it works, but it does not prove it does not either. The only way I will know is to try it for myself. Hopefully it will lead to some more solid evidence one way or another.

D Bergy
 

---

Posted by hiker53 (Member # 6046) on :
 
Truthfinder,

Thanks for your concern about the negativity of others when I post something. It usually doesn't bother me.

I hope those who are negative about sodium chlorite before they have even tried it realize I never have said it worked. I just post my experiences. And since good old ILADS and their recommendations have definitely not worked for me, I will continue to seek alternatives and post my findings despite the silly ridicule. By the way I do believe ILADS is a wonderful organization. Antibiotics just have not worked for me.

Hiker53

[ 28. September 2007, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: Jenifer ]
 

---

Posted by hardynaka (Member # 8099) on :
 
Hiker and Dbergy, I'm glad there are some brave people to try things for others, and willing to share info (good or bad).

Rife was scammed before too, and now many lyme sufferers swear by it!

When I started on Buhner's herbs, many people came to show the author's background, laughing of him, talking about his photo etc. Of course, they haven't read his book on lyme. Now many people are on his herbs and swearing by some of them too!!

I'll read about your experiences, please keep posting!!

Selma
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Good points, D Bergy, hiker and hardynaka - I agree. There's little to lose by taking a neutral stance on the matter.

It occurs to me that perhaps those who reject the very idea that this can possibly work must be people who have never seen or experienced the healing power of something that `science' says is impossible. That is truly a shame. And as JimBob says, ``Those who say it cannot be done should not interfere with the person doing it.'' (Forgive me, JimBob, if I didn't get the wording exactly right......)

Frak said,

``....However,with free speach and discussion comes responsability.''

Absolutely!! Like taking care not to belittle someone by making snide comments about the validity of the topic of a question they post on a new thread..... like taking care not to label something a `scam' or a `fraud' when you do not know this to be true and it is just your opinion.... etc.

``....The inteligence to pick subjects worth the time and energy expended to discuss bonafide remedies for the uninformed newbies and some oldies alike.''

Fortunately for all of us, what constitutes a ``bonafide remedy'' is not your call. You have neither the right nor the authority to make that decision for anyone else on this board. But of course, you certainly have the right to your own OPINION, which should be stated as such. Otherwise, you are giving false information to the ``uninformed''.

"....Such obvious frauds and scams of this nature should be labeled as such and no more discussion should be allowed by the administrators of this board."

Ah, yes - more misstatements of `facts' not in evidence....... Well, most of us enjoy our freedom here to discuss what WE deem may have importance. Perhaps you would be happier over at
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/EuroLyme/
where topics of this nature would NEVER BE ALLOWED. Doesn't that sound nice?

In another thread, Frak, you said:
``And I would'nt comment on anything I did'nt try first.''
And yet, here you are again, commenting.....

Speaking of ``obvious frauds'', this reminds me that it is my belief that there are people on this board who use one Username, then change their name and pretend to be someone else at a later time. Don't these people have the integrity to just be who they are?

This kind of deceit troubles me much more than a website that has the courage to be honest about their claims, which will eventually prove to be true or false.

Tracy
 

---

Posted by dmc (Member # 5102) on :
 
wow, I was just asking since some people on a MS alternative board were asking.

I knew you guys are knowledgable and adventurous would and do know more about it than I can.

All your responses are appreciated.

When those who try it post then we can get a better idea of it's worth.

Looking forward to hearing from the gutsy ones.

Thank you all.
 

---

Posted by Greatcod (Member # 7002) on :
 
What effect might chlorine dioxide have on my health?
Acute health effects : The following acute (short-term) health effects may occur immediately or shortly after exposure to chlorine dioxide: irritate the nose and throat, causing coughing and chest pain; eye irritation with watery eyes and seeing halos around lights; breathing chlorine dioxide can irritate the lungs causing coughing and/or shortness of breath. Higher exposures can cause a build-up of fluid in the lungs (pulmonary oedema), a medical emergency but which might not occur for 24 hours, with severe shortness of breath and possibly death.

Chronic health effects : The following chronic (long-term) health effects can occur at some time after exposure to chlorine dioxide and can last for months or years: irritate the lungs; repeated exposure may cause bronchitis to develop with cough, phlegm, and/or shortness of breath. Permanent lung damage may occur, especially with repeated exposure to the vapours. There is limited evidence that chlorine dioxide may damage the developing foetus.

Good luck..
 

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Posted by kelmo (Member # 8797) on :
 
HAR. Greatcod, I can imagine hearing that being spoken REAL FAST at the end of a commercial.

Can you imagine the first person to try colloidal silver, who didn't realize that "less is more", and turned into the Tin Man?

Be careful out there, guys and gals.
 

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Posted by spookydew (Member # 8432) on :
 
You people don't play nice! Scary.

If something is not liked there should be no mean comments.

Everyone knows the possibility of a scam and should understand consequences concerning safety. A gentle nudge would be nice.
 

---

Posted by frakktured1 (Member # 13028) on :
 
Quote
"there would'nt be any ILADS protocol without brave patients and docs who decided to try something different".

"Something neither approved nor endorsed by the general medical community".

response

Does this mean you finally recognise ILADS and Dr B's protocols as being ALTERNATIVE methods of treatments for TBD's?

I commend you for that.

quote
"Once again objective discussion about something new in the alternative arena escapes lymenet like a bat in the twilight".

response

Quite colorful, yet you make no mention of the discussions Cave and others have contributed. They have not escaped my notice yet you single me out.

Why must you turn this into a personal matter?
You will not goade me into personal responses by this tactic.

quote concerning antibiotics

"When first put into use, each of these was considered a "miracle drug".
"We are now discovering that each of these miracle drugs has long standing consequences".

response from Dr B. and I quote
"Nearly two decades of experience in treating thousands of patients with Lyme has proven that therapy as described " in his protocol, "although intense, is generally well tolerated. The most common adverse reaction seen is allergy to probenecid. In addition, yeast superinfections are seen, but these are generally easily recognized and managed...

"Remember years of experience with chronic antibiotic therapy in other conditions, including rheumatic fever, acne, gingivitis, recurrent otitis, recurrent cystitis, COPD, bronchiectasis, and others have not revealed any consistent dire consequences as a result of such medication use. Indeed, the very real consequences of untreated, chronic persistent infection by B. burgdorferi can be far worse than the potential consequences of this treatment".

my response is that I see nothing even close to comparing with Dr B's experiences in treating TBD's. My own ten year experiences are all I comment on...except perhaps when something is so obviously ridiculous. I do so to protect those who are so sick and desperate they can hardly think for themselves.

quote
"and we really expect that the introduction of stranger and stranger substances into our bodies will bring about balance somehow?

response

Oh yeah, like swallowing bleach is such a great idea. Puking may give one the idea that the body does'nt want it in their system. Ya think?

quote

"Since statistics are out there that prescription drugs are the 3rd leading cause of death in the USA".

Please produce these so called statistics that are "out there".

Don't you mean abuse of prescription drugs?

quote: in re to those who subject themselves to clinical studies.


"Are the participants all suckers too'?

response
No, Desperately sick people, with little hope and money, who are preyed upon and used and abused.

quote

"thanks for the dejavu trip back to the grade school discussion tactics"

response

I believe some of those comments were for levity sake, not discussion. So please don't try to make them something they are not.

But you do seem to ignore other things that have been posted in an attempt at intelligent discussion of this miracle junk.

And now it comes...even though no one but TF has made this discussion anything personal in nature...
he/she starts to alert or "Sqeak"! (I'm quoting myself).

quote

"no members should be afraid to post there ideas and experiences for fear of ridicule scorn or mockery".

response


Then TF, why do you riddicule and mock and scorn my posting of procedures I have indeed tried in other posts?

This could only be your attempt to provoke me into some personal argument of which I have told you I have no desire to engage in with you or anyone else on this website.

I have seen evidence of scorn,riddicule and mockery of the suggested "MMS CURE" only.

Nothing personal.

Yet you TF insinuate there has been.

quote

"like taking care not to label something a scam or a fraud when you don't know this to be true and it is just your opinion".

response

previously answered so many times I'm tired of it.

I still do not like nor appreciate your accusations of my honesty.

And so you see TF this is how you and your proponents start to become "PERSONAL" rather then objectively discussing this miracle junk!

I would appreciate your stopping turning this personal or I may do some "SQUEAKING" of my own.

Really great stuff about the poop stuff by the way....

Cavey you are aware of the many alternatives suggested in Dr B's protocol, are you not?

If not I will gladly post them at some future date....
whew....I'm quite fatigued at this point....

I don't know HOW these other sick people stay on here so long and write so much....

It certainly drains me...

FXD
OH, by the way...I'm quite done with this topic!
 

---

Posted by Greatcod (Member # 7002) on :
 
The topic is "miracle mineral-is it hooey?"
A number of us responded positively. Yes, it is hooey.
Where is the negativity in that?
 

---

Posted by hiker53 (Member # 6046) on :
 
Greatcod,

I mean no disrespect, but how can you call someting "hooey" when you haven't even tried it?

The amount of sodium chlorite taken with the vinegar or citric acid is extremely small and one should ramp up slowly if they try it. Just like some people ramp up on their antibiotics slowly. The MDI yahoo group is reporting their results as people try it, so why don't we wait and see that they find out before saying it is hooey. It does not make bleach!!!

Also I am willing to be that some people on this forum have puked with their antibiotics, too.

Afterall, Alexander Fleming discovered penicillin by accident and think how many lives it saved. Hiker53

[ 29. September 2007, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: hiker53 ]
 

---

Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
 
In regards to what FRAK said,

Medical Errors - A Leading Cause of Death

The JOURNAL of the AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION (JAMA) Vol 284, No 4, July 26th 2000 article written by Dr Barbara Starfield, MD, MPH, of the Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health, shows that medical errors may be the third leading cause of death in the United States.

The report apparently shows there are 2,000 deaths/year from unnecessary surgery; 7000 deaths/year from medication errors in hospitals; 20,000 deaths/year from other errors in hospitals; 80,000 deaths/year from infections in hospitals; 106,000 deaths/year from non-error, adverse effects of medications - these total up to 225,000 deaths per year in the US from iatrogenic causes which ranks these deaths as the # 3 killer. Iatrogenic is a term used when a patient dies as a direct result of treatments by a physician, whether it is from misdiagnosis of the ailment or from adverse drug reactions used to treat the illness. (drug reactions are the most common cause).

============

I've seen other reports that list the number of deaths by prescriptions as much higher than this. But this is what the AMA is admitting to.

I'm in no way endorsing nor naysaying the MMS or whatever it's called.

Can you guys quit fighting now?
 

---

Posted by Greatcod (Member # 7002) on :
 
Well, consider this--most town and city water
supplies pass through a plant where they are chlorinated..and small amounts of the chlorine
gets passed on to consumers. It only makes sense then that everyone with Lyme who lives in those areas would be cured.
Really, before that,I arrived at the conclusion, "It the AIDS in three hours", etc. is an absurd claim.
I would be very careful in giving this person
a credit card number if you buy the second book.
I think this all might be an identity theft thing.
My own view is that the Alternative medicine
should be approached very carefully. its loaded with scams.
I would love to be wrong about Mr. Humble.
 

---

Posted by Greatcod (Member # 7002) on :
 
Well, consider this--most town and city water
supplies pass through a plant where they are chlorinated..and small amounts of the chlorine
get passed on to consumers. It only makes sense then that everyone with Lyme who lives in those areas would be cured.
Really, before that,I arrived at the conclusion, "It cures AIDS in three hours", etc. is an absurd claim.
I would be very careful in giving this person
a credit card number if you buy the second book.
I think this all might be an identity theft thing.
My own view is that the alternative medicine
should be approached very carefully. Its loaded with scams.
I would love to be wrong about Mr. Humble.

[ 29. September 2007, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Greatcod ]
 

---

Posted by frakktured1 (Member # 13028) on :
 
Hey there TUTU,

We're discussing...don't label it anything more.

By the way, thanks for the proof you've supplied that "medical errors" "MAY" be the third leading cause of death in the U.S.

You've proven that "iatrogenic causes; when a patient dies as a direct result of treatment by a physician" ranks 3rd.

NOT medication or prescription drugs as TF stated as a statistic.

Medications either errantly prescribed and administered in a hospital environment 7,000.

106,000 NON-Error, adverse reactions.

The total iatrogenic causes are inclusive in reaching the number you post in this supposed ama confession.

Where drugs are related are let's see 113,000.
Which would make them approx., one half of the total 225,000.

But unless I missed 10000 other folks...
the number only adds up to 215,000.

Not a good number either but hey, do the math, did I make a mistake somewhere?

Anyway, I don't discuss these things to convince their proponents. That is an impossibility.


I only do it to protect the inocent.

FXD
 

---

Posted by Greatcod (Member # 7002) on :
 
Three days for AIDS--sorry
This is from their webpage.

This Breakthrough can save your life, or the life of a loved one. Please read.

The answer to AIDS, hepatitis A,B and C, malaria, herpes, TB, most cancer and many more of mankind's worse diseases has been found. Many diseases are now easily controlled. More that 75,000 disease victims have been included in the field tests in Africa. Scientific clinical trials have been conducted in a prison in the country of Malawi, East Africa.

Separate tests conducted by the Malawi government produced identical 99% cure results. Over 60% of the AIDS victims that were treated in Uganda were well in 3 days, with 98% well within one month. More than 90% of the malaria victims were well in 4 to 8 hours. Dozens of other diseases were successfully treated and can be controlled with this new mineral supplement. It also works with colds, flu, pneumonia, sore throats, warts, mouth sores, and even abscessed teeth (it's the only thing that controls and cures abscessed
 

---

Posted by hiker53 (Member # 6046) on :
 
Again,

You do not have to pay for the e-books that Mr. Humble writes. You download the first one for free. If you do not want to pay for the second one, but want to download, Mr. Humble will send it to you for free. At least he sent it to me for free when I followed his instructions about it from the first e-book.

I am not trying to convince anyone to try this. I doubt I would use it again for lyme as it seems you have to take it in small doses every waking hour and that is unrealistic for me.

I, will, however, continue to follow the MRI website about it and see how people do on it.

And this is all I have to say on the subject. Hiker
 

---

Posted by Greatcod (Member # 7002) on :
 
I read the part about the second book costing
$9.95, which isn't much, which is why I thought it might be about credit card use and indenity
theft.
And maybe this guy is onto the greatest medical brakthrough in the history of the world. Very honestly, I would love for this to be true.
Just seems to me, though, that this guy is preying on sick people.
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Frak, the information about drugs and death rates is easily obtainable on the Internet by Googling a few key words. However, in the interest of fostering healthy discussion practices on this board, here is some more information.....

Thanks for posting most of the story, Lymetoo.

Also, I was incorrect; medical errors are the 3rd leading cause of death; adverse drug reactions - due to drug toxicity and NOT to allergic reactions or drug abuse - are the 4th leading cause, not the 3rd. Guess I got those mixed up. I apologize for the error. It's hard to keep all the deaths from conventional medicine straight.

Here's a bit more info.....

....According to information we have received, a statistical study of hospital deaths in the U.S. conducted at the University of Toronto revealed that pharmaceutical drugs kill more people every year than are killed in traffic accidents.

The study is said to show that more than two million American hospitalized patients suffered a serious adverse drug reaction (ADR) within the 12-month period of the study and, of these, over 100,000 died as a result. The researchers found that over 75 per cent of these ADRs were dose-dependent, which suggests they were due to the inherent toxicity of the drugs rather than to allergic reactions .

The data did not include fatal reactions caused by accidental overdoses or errors in administration of the drugs. If these had been included, it is estimated that another 100,000 deaths would be added to the total every year.

The researchers concluded that ADRs are now the fourth leading cause of death in the United States ......

http://www.cancure.org/medical_errors.htm

To my knowledge, no one has keeled over and died from colloidal silver, homeopathy, being ART tested, the Blasi protocol, seawater therapies, or many of the other choices out there that are often ridiculed on this board. Even if there are any deaths associated with these protocols, there would have to a large number of recorded deaths to even BEGIN to compete with pharmaceutical drugs in the `danger' department.

Hey, Greatcod - interesting information about the dangers of chlorine dioxide, but it is a bit meaningless without knowing at what concentrations and exposures that information is based on.......

But as Kelmo said, ``Be careful out there, guys and gals.'' I agree. For instance, you can seriously damage yourself just by pouring ammonia and bleach into your toilet all at once. This does not mean you shouldn't use either ammonia or bleach - just follow the directions when using chemicals. That's what directions are for.

Why does the word `bleach' keep coming up? Hey, I've already admitted that I'm no chemist, but my Clorox bleach bottle does not say ``chlorine dioxide''. Does yours? So, could somebody knowledgeable either explain this to me or quit calling it ``bleach''?

Oh, rats, I've got to go - minor personal emergency. Don't have time to address some of the questions you posed in a previous post, Frak. I am more than happy to respond, however..... just can't do it right now.

Tracy
 

---

Posted by Greatcod (Member # 7002) on :
 
Truthfinder --look at my earlier post, copied from his website. It cures AIDS in three days!

On the concentration question, you are right about the lack of information. But also consider that this is a make it at homemade therapy, and that Chlorine Dioxide is a dangerous substance when ingested. I pulled this from EPA website.

" Chlorine Dioxide. Some infants and young children who drink water containing chlorine dioxide in excess of EPA's standard could experience nervous system effects. Similar effects may occur in fetuses of pregnant women who drink water containing chlorine dioxide in excess of EPA's standard. Some people may experience anemia."

It also causes stomach problems and diareha. I know that from my Army experience as a water supply specialist.

As far as the conventional alternative battles, the big problem I have is the total lack of any quantification of results with herbs and such,
and the typically overstated claims by the producers. Herbs are far less likely to harm people, but what kind of good results do they really produce? That, and the way people say everybody's different, so we can't possibly know.
I suspect the Lymeworld is loaded with people who have treatment failure with herbs, they just don't report it.
The alternative folks jump all over ABX treatment failures, but with never a mention of
herbal treatment failures.
 

---

Posted by frakktured1 (Member # 13028) on :
 
Hey there TF

I never believed you were for real the first time I had the displeasure to converse with you and the rest of your friends...

so I'm really not interested in anything you say or think you're quoting...

cuz its all the same bunk to me....

c ya
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Hey dmc, I'd just like to apologize for some of the turns this thread has taken. I would prefer to talk about the product and treatment itself so that we could all be better informed, but when some prefer to prejudge the matter, then we digress.

Frak, you have addressed me personally in your previous posts, and now you post another message saying you are not interested in anything I have to say.... I understand that. I'm quite sure you are not interested. But, of course, I believe you have made some errors in your assessment, which must be addressed. I am interested in truthfinding, after all.......

Frak, you said:

###``Does this mean you finally recognise ILADS and Dr B's protocols as being ALTERNATIVE methods of treatments for TBD's?''###

I'm not sure Dr. B's protocols would be termed `alternative' in my book, simply because the drugs used are still allopathic meds.... so, this is a good question. What would be a good term for the ILADS-endorsed TBD treatments? I don't have an answer.

###``Quite colorful, yet you make no mention of the discussions Cave and others have contributed. They have not escaped my notice yet you single me out.''###

I did not single you out. I made a general comment on the discussion where several people had posted. Please show me where I singled you out in my post of ``"Once again objective discussion about something new in the alternative arena escapes lymenet like a bat in the twilight".

I said (regarding vaccines and antibiotics), ``We are now discovering that each of these miracle drugs has long standing consequences".
Again, this was a general comment. We cannot deny the obvious evidence out there of many often-deadly, antibiotic-resistant organisms, and now we have no way to kill them. Or if there is a new antibiotic that will kill them, few people can afford it. This is a reality. It is not necessarily anyone's fault - it is simply a consequence of using antibiotics.

And don't any of you long-term abx users ever ask yourselves about the possible consequences of being bitten by a healthy tick, which then acquires your own version of Bb, which likely is antibiotic-resistant to some degree? If this tick then bites someone, then what? If that person becomes ill with Lyme, did your long-term antibiotic use just contribute to a case of Lyme Disease in some poor soul that is unresponsive to even the best ILADS-endorsed treatment?

(BTW, I have seen no solid evidence concluding that bacteriostatic abx do not cause resistance, even though many LLMDs BELIEVE this to be the case. I'm sure this is a question that will be answered some day, but I doubt if it will be soon.)

And let's not forget what another ILADS doc said (Dr. J. in NC): ..''learn to practice the humility necessary to appreciate what we don't understand about medicine......'' and ...... ``an appreciation for the search of the profound and undiscovered, is more important than what you may know.....''

BTW, in case there is any confusion, I am not opposed to ILADS, nor do I condemn anyone who follows their protocols. But I support investigation of products and protocols that ILADS would not be interested in. I am an equal-opportunity investigator.

Frak, you said, ``My own ten year experiences are all I comment on...except perhaps when something is so obviously ridiculous. I do so to protect those who are so sick and desperate they can hardly think for themselves.''

Again, it is only your opinion that something is obviously ridiculous. If you wish to protect the sick and defenseless, then by all means state your opinion, list the reasons for it (or none if you don't have any), and be done with it. Or ask the tough questions that you feel need some answers.... that's all well and good, and constitutes what real discussions are all about. Otherwise, these blanket, unsubstantiated comments about products become just so much bloviating.

I, too, wish to help the sick and defenseless by assuring that they receive accurate information, and not a lot of dis-information..... Like suggesting that taking this product is the equivalent of drinking bleach. That is a blatantly untrue. It is disingenuous to claim that your intent is to `protect the sick and desperate' and then proceed to post such misleading information. The `truth' is what these people need to make an informed decision - not fabrications.

###``Oh yeah, like swallowing bleach is such a great idea. Puking may give one the idea that the body does'nt want it in their system. Ya think?''###

You just posted defamatory information about MMS, and that can get you tossed off this board. It is not bleach and I suspect that you are well aware of that. The question of puking has been addressed by other posters here.

###``No, Desperately sick people, with little hope and money, who are preyed upon and used and abused.''###

LOL, Frak, please review my post. The participants I was referring to were the ones that probably had the guts to go through the trials that led to the approval of the very drugs you rely on to get you through the day. Are you sure this is your final answer, LOL?

###``And now it comes...even though no one but TF has made this discussion anything personal in nature...''###

Please point this out to me. I have endorsed or questioned certain posts made by others here..... I do not see that this makes the discussion personal in nature. If I have a question about what someone posts, isn't that the person I should ask about it?

###``Then TF, why do you riddicule and mock and scorn my posting of procedures I have indeed tried in other posts?''###
Please show me where I have done that.

I said:
``....like taking care not to label something a scam or a fraud when you don't know this to be true and it is just your opinion".
There are several here who do not seem to grasp this basic concept. That is why is must be thrown out on the table over and over again. Once it is understood and followed, you won't have to hear it anymore. Simple.

###``TF this is how you and your proponents start to become "PERSONAL" rather then objectively discussing this miracle junk!''###

Man, I have to tell you, Frak - I almost blew decaf coffee out my nose when I read this one yesterday. Perhaps we should label this statement as ``Exhibit A''. Surely, I do not have to point out your non-objectivity in referring to this as ``miracle junk'', which is another defamatory statement since you stated it as a fact, not your opinion.

Here's the thing, Frak: If anyone initiates the process of mud-slinging - whether it is at another poster or about a treatment or product - they can hardly complain later when some of it comes back on them and they get all muddy. So, it seems logical to me that none of us should be the first one to throw the mud. Tact. Investigation. Diplomacy. Basic courtesy and consideration. These should be the tools of objective discussion.

###``I still do not like nor appreciate your accusations of my honesty.''###

I do not recall doing this. Please show me where I have accused you of being dishonest.


Okay, now BACK ON TOPIC!!! (do I hear some shouts of joy, LOL?)

I saw on one blog this morning that at least one supplier is completely out of the MMS, so apparently the word is spreading and some people are willing to try it. I do hope they follow directions and don't have a major herx just trying to get faster results.

I am toying with the idea of placing an order myself.... as long as the sodium chlorite doesn't have a real short shelf life, I would like to have some of this on hand to try at some point.....

Lyme & Co. is such a tricky complex disease, I don't think anyone should expect rapid results if they are a Lymie. Mr. Humble probably doesn't know too much about Lyme, either, like most people who don't have it. I suspect that, like taking abx, results man be achieved over time, and perhaps it will require an extended period of time. Too soon to know, but these are just things to keep in mind since this is such a new product.

All the best,
Tracy
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Hi, GC -

The statement you made earlier is false'': ``It cures AIDS in three days!''
You are mis-quoting and exaggerating the claims on the website.

Actually, what the website says is that ``Over 60% of the AIDS victims that were treated in Uganda were well in 3 days, with 98% well within one month.''

This is/was his observation and he is not claiming that it will do the same for everyone. And he does not use the word cure, but ``well'' or ``successfully treated'' of ``controlled''. I have a friend who was recently ``successfully treated'' for lung cancer with chemotherapy. He is out of danger, but the doctors do not claim that he is cured. The cancer is being controlled. And I think that's what happens with most Lyme patients; the Lyme is controlled, but rarely ``cured''.

I know of another `alternative' practitioner who is treating AIDS patients in Africa, and while the symptoms of AIDS in many of these patients disappear relatively quickly, he admits that they are not cured - just free from symptoms. They are still HIV positive, can still pass the virus to others, and still get re-infected.

So, I'm not equating ``well, successfully treated, or controlled'' as the same thing as claiming a cure. This, I believe, is similar to the favorable outcomes of those Lymies who get better from abx. They may not be cured, but they feel well. I take this same approach to all treatments discussed on this board, including abx. And in no way does the website suggest that any kind of restoration to health is possible in all cases.

Be very careful about sensationalizing....

I do not know what the EPA standards are for chlorine dioxide, so this doesn't help me much either. And I have seen plenty of reports from the abx uses of ``nervous system effects, stomach problems, and diarrhea'', so that in itself isn't too alarming. In fact, perhaps it is reassuring: couldn't those symptoms suggest a herx, and isn't that supposed to be a good thing when you are trying to kill bacteria?

``As far as the conventional alternative battles, the big problem I have is the total lack of any quantification of results with herbs and such, and the typically overstated claims by the producers.''

I understand that. We've discussed this before.... and a lot of it boils down to $$$ for any organized research. And I certainly agree that there is some overstated hype about many supplements. But after reading your statement about `curing AIDS in 3 days', I do have to wonder if you aren't reading more into some of these claims than is actually there? I'm not trying to slam you here, but the thought does occur to me.

Of course there are many failures with herbs that we don't hear about!!! But I maintain that part of that problem is our own fault. Lots of herbal and alternative people have left LymeNet because of the intimidation from some posters here, so we never get to hear the results of their personal protocols.

LOL, your observation is that ``alternative folks jump all over ABX treatment failures, but with never a mention of herbal treatment failures'', and my observation is just the opposite.

Thanks again for breaking up (most) of your post - it is appreciated.

Tracy
 

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Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
I have just started my experiment with MMS. I will report back when I am done with the experiment.
I have no ill effects so far but I am at a very low dose.

Here is the best info I have found on the possible mechanisms of action of MMS.

http://bioredox.mysite.com/CLOXhtml/CLOXhome.htm

D Bergy
 

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Posted by Greatcod (Member # 7002) on :
 
Be very careful about sensationalizing....
Me, sensationalizing?

How about Mr. Humble?
"Separate tests conducted by the Malawi government produced identical 99% cure results. Over 60% of the AIDS victims that were treated in Uganda were well in 3 days, with 98% well within one month."

Seriously! Do you think that the doctors and the govenment in Malawi are so stupid that they would not have informed their media,the international media, the UN, and the medical establishments and gay communities of other countries of their stunning success with this treatment.

That some guy gets to introduce it to the world by a crappy website in the Internet.

This is exactly the kind of absurd claim that gives alternative medicine such a bad repuation
with mainstream medicine. And that unfortunately makes it much more difficult to convince them of the very real benefits of the traditinal medicines of China and India and other cultures.
 

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Posted by map1131 (Member # 2022) on :
 
Truthfinder, same here and suspecting some(one) is using more than one user name(s) to voice their many personalities.

I suspected this one is flipping out?

Pam
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
For me, I am interested in hearing from people that have tried MMS, not from those that have no knowledge of it, have not read the 2 eBooks, and really have no place from which to state an opinion one way or another.

I know of one LLMD that has recommended this as a potentially useful therapy.

In my opinion, talking about something that one has no experience with is dangerous. Am I suggesting that MMS works? No. Am I suggesting that it doesn't work? No.

Until I have enough data and maybe even firsthand personal experience, it does not seem prudent for me to attempt to make a comment one way or another on a topic.

And in response to GreatCod's post above, in most countries where HIV/AIDS is prevalent, it is in the straight community. Just wanted to point out that you left them out. They probably should be alerted to MMS as well. HIV does not discriminate.
 

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Posted by Greatcod (Member # 7002) on :
 
And how exactly does one reach the straight community, other than informing the medical establishment.
I don't know of any all inclusive straight community oraganizations, do you?
Not that I don't want to be PC.
Scott, is there anything alternative you don't endorse as worthwhile?
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Thanks, D Bergy. Glad to hear you are talking it slow. How long are you going to give this treatment to see results? Hmmm, maybe that wasn't a fair question...... I'm not really sure it is a treatment that should be put into a definite timeframe... Well, I'm looking forward to your report, or some updates as you go along. Best of luck!

Boy, that link you provided leads to so many links..... pretty extensive information there.

GC, I can't verify how much sensationalism is involved in Mr. Humble's website. I can (and did), however, show where YOU engaged in sensationalism, and what happens here on LymeNet concerns me a lot more than what Mr. Humble does. And suggesting that Scott is endorsing this treatment is just another clear example.

GC, do you really think the Malawi government would put a great deal of confidence in just ONE study, even if it were a verified study? That would be a bit premature, don't you think? (Plus, if enough money changes hands among the right people, nobody will hear about the study anyway.)

I fear you are right, Pam.

Scott, if you hear any feedback about this treatment via this LLMD or any of his patients, please let us know. I would certainly welcome any information as it pertains to those of us with Lyme & Co.

Tracy
 

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Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
I really do not have any particular symptoms to gauge effectiveness other than my Crohn's symptoms.

Crohn's could be caused by one or more bacteria types in the intestine, but that is just the leading theory. If it is a bacteria, and MMS works, then possibly it could eliminate my symptoms. I am not putting too much confidence in that since there are so many unknowns about both the disease, and the treatment.

I will watch to see if I have any resolution to some other minor issues, such as a patch of Psoriasis, skin tags. Twice I have resolved health problems by accident, so I have learned to watch for the unexpected.

I started out at 1 drop and am increasing by two drops a day until I get some reaction. I took three drops this morning, had no noticable effect.

I had a slight pain in a particular place in my stomach before I took the one drop dose. About five minutes after the dose, the pain increased a little for about ten minutes and then was gone altogether. Does not really mean anything, but it was what occurred. No other reactions of note.

I will continue to take it until I reach 15 drops. Then I will call it quits and go off of my supplements I use to keep my inflammation under control. If I can do that without any issues for a few weeks, then I may start to consider that it did something beneficial.

My wife, who does have Lyme will not be using it in the near future. I want more evidence of safety before I would consider that.

I would not want anyone to think I am recommending this method. It is not proven safe or effective. I am just curious if it has any ill or positive effects on a relatively healthy person. I will post more as I go on.

Best Regards

D Bergy
 

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Posted by Greatcod (Member # 7002) on :
 
"Separate tests conducted by the Malawi government produced identical 99% cure results"

Medically, that's the equivilant of finding little green men (and women) on Mars. Quite sensational.

And it is quite flattering that no one would track my posts...thank you. I assure you that your are alone in that pursuit.

And given that Scott has done so much research,
it would be a great help to the Lyme patient community if he posted those alternative treatments he has found to be useless, or outright scams. There must be some.
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Thanks very much for the update and `the plan', D. Bergy. And remember.... no puking. That is an effect I simply would not be able to tolerate.

I also read where heart palpitations can occur using MMS, but nobody has reported anything serious yet, and usually temporary. Heart palps are what I had as my only `herx' symptom when I took both the Samento and the Cumanda, so I'm kind of tuned into that particular effect.

I have read some of the theories about Crohn's. and bacteria (or some other microbes) in the gut is certainly a plausible theory to me. After what I have learned here at LymeNet, I would almost be surprised if it were NOT microbial.

Thanks again for your willingness to keep us in the loop.

For Scott and some others here who aren't discounting this as `hooey' right off the bat, I found a thread elsewhere that might be of interest, so I'll send some PMs out..... don't want to bother anybody else with unimportant information.

Tracy
 

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Posted by Healing in Santa Cruz (Member # 7798) on :
 
Hi Truthfinder, Please write to me at my other addy. Unable to reply to u for some reason on the PM HERE. Take care
 

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Posted by Greatcod (Member # 7002) on :
 
Chlorine dioxide is a chemical compound with the formula ClO2. This greenish-yellow gas crystallizes as orange crystals at −59 �C. As one of several oxides of chlorine, it is a potent and useful oxidizing agent used in water treatment and in bleaching.

Has anyone ever opened their eyes underwater in a chlorinated pool..point being that it does to
human tissue what it does to pathogens. Be very careful. It's not a Miracle Mineral, it's an industrial chemical..
And please be as specific as posssible as to the effects, not merely "it helped"...what symptoms, how improved.
 

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Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
I have nothing much to report on MMS. I took five drops today and had the slight pain sensation in my surgical area where I had three inches of small bowel removed. Since I have this sensation every so often it is not unusual in itself, but being I have had this slight pain somewhere after every dose for ten minutes or so I think I can safely attribute it to the MMS.

I also started taking 4 ounces of water instead of two so the MMS would be more likely to travel farther down my gut before being absorbed. This could be why I felt it further down than before.

What does it mean? I have no idea. The surgical area often forms a new stricture after the original is removed so it is not unexpected that it would be sensitive. Whether the MMS is just irritating the area or disinfecting it is unknown.

Other than that I have no side effects or unusual reactions or sensations. No nausea which kind of surprises me. Maybe because I have been taking large doses of Turmeric, Ginger, and regular doses of Krill oil for quite a while, I may not have much in the way of bad bacteria in my gut.

I have read a couple of reports of temporary heart problems which should be of concern to Lyme patients. It is speculated that the MMS cleans out arterial plaque so quickly that it can cause this problem. Whether this is what causes it or not, this problem has been reported more than one time so I think it should be noted. The problem so far has been temporary, but that does not mean it should be disregarded.

It will be some time before I can say whether it has improved my condition in any way. So far it has not made it worse. When I am done and can quit my supplements for a while I will be able to draw some conclusions.

I have the opportunity to have some blood work done soon free from my employer. One test will check liver enzymes. It will be interesting to see if they are elevated.

Thats all for now.

D Bergy
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Okay, Healing in S.C. - done.

Yes, GC, and I don't know of anybody who died drinking a bit of swimming pool water..... lord knows, I swallowed a lot of it as a kid.......let's face it, orange juice will burn your eyes if you swim in it, but it's perfectly fine to drink it.

Unless we start talking about concentrations and exposure (as I mentioned before), how can we equate this with MMS? We can't. In a sense, from what I understand, this is basically `stabilized oxygen' therapy, which has been around for decades. And that really helped me with my acute EBV infection, I might add, back in the early 90s...... one of those products considered `hooey'........ Hmmm. I never tried it for Lyme...... and don't really know why I didn't think of it.

D Bergy, thanks for the update and the important info about the heart problems. Very good to know. I did see a lot of plaque in my blood when I had the Live Blood Analysis done.

I've noticed that my heart palps have increased lately, and the only thing I've changed is adding chlorella and Green Magma to my regimen. I've started to smell bad, too. Detoxing and getting more gunk into the blood?

I've gotten a little more info on where to read about people using/discussing the MMS, so perhaps more PMs will be going out. If I can find the time!

Tracy
 

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Posted by Greatcod (Member # 7002) on :
 
If a person takes it in concentrations great enough to kill pathogens, at a minimum it must kill the good intestinal bacteria. Humble claimed that it only killed pathogens--that seems absurd to me.
 

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Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
I would say that it is likely that it kills other bacteria besides just bad bacteria. It may be a good idea to use a probiotic also. It certainly would not hurt anything.

I suppose a bacteriologist would know if the characteristics of bad bacteria are always different in some way. That would be the only way it could discriminate between the two.

Thanks for bringing it up. I think I will start taking the probiotics when I am done. Although, I have not noticed any difference in my digestive functions yet, it could come with time.

Took seven drops today, nothing to note other than the slight intestinal pain for a few minutes.

D Bergy
 

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Posted by BorreliaBrain (Member # 7603) on :
 
I really don't want to be a negative nellie, and I'm all for trying new things and alternatives to beat this nasty thing. That said, I found this blurb online and thought it was interesting, and applied to the MM:

"Hydrogen Peroxide is a naturally produced purposeful molecule in the body. It functions to aid membrane transport, acts as a hormonal messenger, regulates thermogenesis (heat production), stimulates and regulates immune functions, regulates energy production and many other important metabolic functions.

These effects can occur without increasing the amount of oxygen. It is purposely used by the body to produce Hydroxyl Radicals to kill bacteria, virus, fungi, yeast and a number of parasites.

This natural killing or protective system has nothing to do with increasing the amount of available oxygen.

The amount of oxygen produced by a therapeutic infusion of Hydrogen Peroxide is very small. A single breath of fresh air contains many times more oxygen than found in either a therapeutic infusion or in a few drops of 35% Food Grade Hydrogen Peroxide taken orally.

Claims are being made that molecules containing Oxygen and Chlorine, Chlorine or Chlorite ions will sterilize water, milk and almost anything to which they have been added.

Chlorine is added to almost all public water supplies for the same purpose. The small amount of oxygen in these molecules have very little to do with this sterilization process. There are many more aerobic (requires oxygen) than anerobic (does not use oxygen) bacteria and increasing the oxygen supply may actually stimulate the growth
of the aerobic bacteria.

`Oxygen supply' or `Oxygenation' is not a credible basis for the promotion of these products. Oxidation is the key word and not Oxygenation.

"Oxidation is the removal of an electron from a molecule which changes electrical energy of the molecule into an oxidized state. The oxidizing agent which accepts the electron through this reaction becomes reduced.

This reaction takes place in many biochemical reactions in which OXYGEN is not involved. In oxidative reactions in which Hydrogen Peroxide is involved, oxygen is released when the Hydrogen
Peroxide, acting as an oxidizer, is reduced but it is the transfer of the electrons which is important and not the production of Oxygen.

Manufacturers of products which claim to have the same effect as Hydrogen Peroxide may not have a good understanding of the biochemical role of Hydrogen Peroxide in the body.

Some of these products claim to provide more oxygen molecules than Hydrogen Peroxide and that may be true but I know of no scientific evidence to show this enhances oxidative metabolism."
 

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Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
It sounds like the author is trying to make a distinction between increasing the oxygen in the body (oxygenation) vs the chemical reaction of taking an electron from a molecule(oxidation).

My understanding is that MMS works by the process of oxidation.

The following link seems to explain it as an oxidizer also. But, I am not a chemical engineer and chemistry class was a long time ago.

http://bioredox.mysite.com/CLOXhtml/CLOXilus.htm

D Bergy
 

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Posted by BorreliaBrain (Member # 7603) on :
 
Yeah, exactly, and I think they're saying that chlorite is not a stronger oxidzer than peroxide.

But, it's all really theory. No one really knows what happens in the body, so my hat's off to those of you brave enough to try it, and I'll be very interested to see how people do on it, and I really hope it works!
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
The concern about killing beneficial bacteria is a valid one. It is certainly a problem when taking abx. Now I don't know this info is accurate, but according to what Wallace posted in that other MMS thread:

"Throughout the body, anywhere chlorine dioxide ions - transported via red blood cells - come in contact with pathogens, the pathogens give up "their electrons and cease to exist. The chlorine dioxide armed cells only ``detonate'' on contact with pathogens, which include harmful bacteria, viruses, toxins, heavy metals, and parasites. All of these will have pH values that are out of the body's range of good health. They will also have a positive ionic charge. The chlorine dioxide equipped cells do not oxidize beneficial bacteria, or healthy cells, as their pH levels are 7 or above, and hold a negative ion charge.

Chlorine dioxide ions will oxidize - meaning vaporize - diseased cells... anything that is acidic, with a positive ion charge."
http://phaelosopher.wordpress.com/2007/09/09/no-miracle-just-wonderful-chemistry/

D Bergy, I read Hesselink's article (the link you posted). Pretty interesting, although a bit above my head in the chemistry department..... I had no idea that Artemisinin and allicin (component of garlic) are in the ``oxidative therapy'' category. And we've all heard stories here about how potent the effects can be from Artemisinin.......

There is a Yahoo group that is discussing the MMS therapy - hiker mentioned this. Of course, you have to join the group in order to see the posts but if anyone is interested, I THINK this link should take you where you can sign up.

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/MDI_News/join?yguid=217649305&finish=sub

Earlier, I mentioned a product that helped me with my acute EBV infection years ago. Well, I actually found a blurb about that very product on Humble's website.

Here's part of it.....

``Dioxychlor(TM) is available on the Internet for sale and the entire scientific paper is available as well. The formula although somewhat weaker than MMS is the exact same chemical. (TM stands for Trade Mark). Go to Google and search Dioxychlor.''

The instructions for taking Dioxychlor are: ``May be used sublingually, 2-20 drops 2-3 times daily. Hold in your mouth as long as possible before swallowing. Use 4 days & stop for 3, then keep repeating this on/off dosing. Start at lower dose and gradually increase as needed.'' But you won't find all those instructions on the bottle. And the stuff is pretty expensive.

This `pulsing' method may prove to be beneficial with the MMS, also, especially for people with tough, difficult-to-eradicate bugs like Lyme which may require a longer treatment period. By all means, go slowly and cautiously with the MMS. We just don't know much yet.

Tracy
 

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Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
Lots of good input and I seem to learn a little more from the discussion every day.

I did seven drops yesterday and at the time I posted I had no reactions. But later on I had the big D and was on the toilet quite a few times. I did not take it this morning since it is not real convenient to have the runs at work. It did not matter as it continued most of the day.

At least I know it is doing something, not sure what yet. I plan on taking a nine drop dose tonight. We will see what happens. I can sluff off tomorrow if I have to.

I often wondered how some herbs can kill only bad bacteria. They must also react with the different Ph or some other characteristic that is common to pathogens. It seems odd to me that most of the bad guys in our body essentially wear chemical black hats so they can be identified.

D Bergy
 

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Posted by Greatcod (Member # 7002) on :
 
The gut is very acidic, so I am guessing the
good bacteria of the digestive tract are adapted to the acidic enviroment, and would be killed by the chlorine dioxide.
The rest of the body is mildly alkaline, so the cells of the veins and arteries must be alkaline, and not harmed by the red blood cells carrying the extra oxygen. The assumption seems to be that the pathogens are acidic, and can be killed by the by the extra oxygen..
 

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Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
The more I think about it, the more I believe you are correct that the MMS likely kills both good and bad bacteria in the gut. Nothing is there to control its action since it is just poured in.

I have noticed that my stomach is more acidic for some reason since yesterday. I get the hiccups when it is more acidic. Maybe that is the result of wholesale bacterial kill off.

Once the MMS is in the bloodstream it is a different ballgame and I am not sure how exactly the immune system uses it selectively. I think the immune system is still a mystery for the most part. It is to me anyway.

I must have missed that part about the Allicin and Artemisinin Truthfinder. I was not aware that Allicin and Artemisinin worked by a similar method. That is good to know. I have considered trying out Allicin but have not heard many reports on effectiveness.

Thanks for the testimonial healthyperson. I am glad you suffered no apparent harm from your experiment. Makes me feel a little less worried.

I would rather drink a glass of battery acid before I would give up meat. You have more will power than me. But, personally I think meat is good for a person. It is easy for me to believe that since I like it so much.

Good Night

D Bergy
 

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Posted by Healing in Santa Cruz (Member # 7798) on :
 
Glad to see this thread has calmed down. I started MMS Sept 6 and have had quite a few positives. Brain-fog clearing, stuffy nose clearing,pain much better, energy up. I did have a bit of nausea when I first started,but that has not been an issue lately. No vomiting or diareah. I started with 1 drop and will post in the future what I experienced. I am doing lemon,or lyme with water. The citric acid does not feel comfy right now. I find it very important to take minerals and extra Mag. I am still doing Buhner protocal. I am quite excited about MMS. My MD is very interested in it and is watching me closely. He has recommended it to other people. That make 2 great Docs that r recommending it and I know others r watching very closely. I have been disabled with lyme and co,heavy metals,candida etc. I have MCS,EI and find if I am exposed the reactions do not last a long. I am taking supps 4-5 hrs away from mms. 5-6 drops 3 times about 1 hr to 2 hours apart. I use a pendulum and my dr does muscle testing to get amounts,how often etc. I have had a few emotional herxs, and vey mild others. I am using this with caution as others should as not enough research on lymies taking it long term. This is the most progress I have had in 31/2 yrs killing lyme. I saw dxed after 23 yrs ill. I am also doing Quantum techniques.com on myself, homeopathy as dr is md homeopath, and working on depleted adrenals with Ashwagandha and organic Tulsi tea. The herxs are a total different milder thing for me with the MMS. Namaste' Joyce
 

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Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
Thanks for the report. We need every one who is trying this out to do the same. At least then every one has some information available.

I am glad you are using a cautious approach.

D Bergy
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Many thanks to the posters who are reporting their results.

And thanks, HealthyPerson for editing your post into smaller paragraphs.... I confess, I have a terrible time reading big blocks of text.

I bit the bullet and ordered a bottle of MMS yesterday. I really don't want to interrupt what I'm doing already, so it will probably sit on the shelf for quite awhile. But at least I have it if and when I choose to use it.

I heard there were links to some letters from the Malawi government on Humble's site, but I couldn't find them. Maybe I misunderstood....
 

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Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
I had the first interesting and disgusting effect since I started this experiment.

At eleven drops I felt fine other than the big D which started around seven drops. Later in the evening I had some more D and had what looked like a large grub used for Crappie fishing in the toilet. About 3/8" of an inch long and wider in the middle about 3/16" of an inch wide at the widest point and tapered to points on both ends. I did not eat anything that could have resulted in such a unique item.

I took thirteen drops just before the first episode but there was not enough time for that to have been the cause. The eleven drops seemed to create this result, whatever it was.

Later at work I dumped some rice looking stuff. about 12 to fifteen objects. Some broken in pieces and some intact and the length of Rice but had the tapered ends. Appeared to be somewhat digested. Similar to the bigger one earlier but of a smaller size. I have seen these on rare occasions in the past, the last time after I took some Turmeric tincture because i was out of my capsules. I just kind of figured it was something I ate since only one appeared and was hard to see in the stool.

Later on I had nothing of interest and have not since.

I do not know if they are parasites or some other unexplained objects.

It is a very disgusting thought if they are parasites.

I am both testing for side effects and hoping for a long shot of resolving Crohn's by eliminating a possible bacteria that triggers the reaction.

If it appears to be safe, we will use it as a possible Lyme treatment later on. Which is my main reason for testing it.

My 23 year old son wanted to take a full fifteen drop dose but I talked him down to seven. He had the big D and burning when he urinated that went away after a while. He is likely loaded with bacteria from his skin disease. He is curious like myself and is trying to find something to help his disease.

D Bergy
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
This is most interesting, D Bergy. I really suspect you are seeing parasites, and I don't think that is gross at all. I would be thrilled to get the little suckers out of there (whatever they are.

Are you still on it? I've read over on the MDI Yahoo group that the vomiting can kind of sneak up on you, so please go slow.

I'm having trouble keeping up with the MMS discussions on other sites......

Also, could anyone confirm for me that in the Malawi trials, the MMS was actually IV administered, or perhaps by injection. Can anyone confirm this?

I got my bottle of MMS, but it is just going to sit there awhile, as I explained earlier....
 

---

Posted by map1131 (Member # 2022) on :
 
D, sounds like parasites to me. I experienced exactly what you described, while doing parasite cleanse about 2 yrs ago.

Pam
 

---

Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
I took a few days off since the big D was pretty constant and I was not sure if it was Crohn's or the MMS. I thought the MMS could cause a Crohn's flare since my guts are messed up to begin with. I did not want to get dehydrated either.

The D quit when I quit taking the MMS. After a few days I went back on at 15 drops a day since that is where I left off. Three doses so far and no D. My intestinal function is completely normal as far as I can tell. The MMS now has no effect that I can tell. I am not taking any suppliments and do not seem to need them as before. I have completley normal bowel fuction so far. I will need more time to determine if it is a fluke or not.

I am assuming the D was caused by the bad bacteria, parasites I had since I no longer have it. This is exactly how it is described to work so it gives me some confidence that it does mostly as advertised as far as intestinal pathogens go.

I am still leery about taking it every day as a preventative. I just am not sure that it is that safe. I think for most people just using it once a year would take care of anything in the intestinal tract. I have no way of knowing if it did anything for the rest of the body. My psoriasis is still there although slightly better than before. It often fluctuates so that really does not mean anything.

I have no other improvements or negative effects that I can determine.

I am hoping to get a liver fuction test later this month, and I am going to take it before just for that test. It will be interesting to see what it shows.

That is all I have for now.

D Bergy
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
D. Bergy, are things still normal in the bowel department? (I know it has only been 4 days since you posted, but I've been wondering about this......)

Assuming you are killing parasites, I would sure stay on the MMS until all stages of parasites have been eliminated. I'm thinking that might take about 6 weeks?

Like you, I'm not sure I would want to take it every day as `maintenance'. But perhaps a few days once a month would prevent severe reinfection from most parasites/ pathogens. I'm not sure I would want to wait an entire year..... (easy for me to say since I haven't taken any at all).

Is the taste pretty objectionable? What are you using for the activator at the present time?

I recently read posts from someone getting great results for a 10-year chronic bronchitis problem. Last they posted, they were nearly off all medications that they had been on for 10 years. I thought that was pretty significant.

Thanks -
 

---

Posted by CaliforniaLyme (Member # 7136) on :
 
Just fyi, I am not saying don't do this, just saying be careful-
they monitor it's level in water for public health which is a little scary to ME, I am not saying You, I am saying to ME- and it can be poisonous- of course many things in moderation can in overdose be toxic we know that- but still-

I've been reading up on it- please read these abstracts- there is a certain risk group of pepole who should not do this stuff at all-
seriously- IMO- the first is just the attempted suicide by sodium chlorite abstract but after that- just fyi!!!

Basically water treated with chlorine dioxide has dosium chlorites as byproducts and they have found that certain people who have a G6PD phenotype should NOT do this protocol because it could really hurt them-
you can develop HEMOLYTIC ANEMIA!!! from this~!!
That's all,
Just trying to look out for folks,
Seriously,
Sincerely,
Sarah
************************************
1: Ren Fail. 1993;15(5):645-8.Links

Acute sodium chlorite poisoning associated with renal failure.

Lin JL, Lim PS.
Division of Nephrology, Chang Gung Memorial Hospital, Taipei, Taiwan, Republic of China.

A 25-year-old Chinese male presented with generalized cyanosis and respiratory distress.

The patient was known to have ingested 10 g of sodium chlorite in a suicide attempt.

Methemoglobinemia was found and intravenous methylene blue was given repeatedly. However, the therapy could not prevent an acute hemolytic crisis.


Methemoglobinemia remained profound (43.1%) and disseminated intravascular coagulation ensued.


He was put on CAVHD to correct the fluid overload and probably to remove the active metabolites of the chlorite.


After 24 h, the methemoglobin was reduced to 16.9%.

However, the development of acute renal failure further complicated the clinical course.

Percutaneous renal biopsy suggested a picture of acute tubulointerstitial nephropathy.

In addition, hemodialysis was continued for 4 weeks.

After 3 months, renal function normalized.


To our knowledge, there has been no clinical report of human intoxication with sodium chlorite.

PMID: 8290712

1: Ann Ig. 2005 Nov-Dec;17(6):509-18.Links


G6PD phenotype and red blood cell sensitivity to the oxidising action of chlorites in drinking water


Contu A, Bajorek M, Carlini M, Meloni P, Cocco P, Schintu M.
Dipartimento di Sanit� Pubblica, Sezione di Igiene, Universit� degli Studi di Cagliari. [email protected]

Chlorine dioxide is widely used to replace sodium hypochlorite in the disinfection of surface waters for human consumption, in order to avoid or reduce the formation of organohalogenated compounds with mutagenic and carcinogenic activity.


However, chlorine dioxide may lead to the formation of by-products, such as chlorites and chlorates, that have an oxidative effect on the blood corpuscled fraction.


In this investigation, blood crasis was assessed in relation to the G6PD phenotype and the consumption of tap water, disinfected with chlorine dioxide, or bottled mineral water from non-disinfected underground sources.


The results show that the effect of oxidative stress resulting from the uptake of chlorites with drinking water is not additive to the effect due to G6PD deficiency. The observed change in haematological parameters, including those related to the G6PD polymorphism, is always within the normal range. However, it is still possible that more relevant changes would follow exposure to chlorites concentrations greater than that observed in the present study.

PMID: 16523710
1: J Environ Pathol Toxicol. 1980 Sep;4(2-3):271-9.Links
G6PD-deficiency: a potential high-risk group to copper and chlorite ingestion.Moore GS, Calabrese EJ.


Although humans may accept fairly large amounts of orally ingested copper (0.25 to 1.0 gm) without visible harmful effects, patients with Wilson's disease, and persons with G6PD deficiency may represent persons at unusual risk to hemolytic anemia from ingestion of Cu(II).


This study reports that in vitro exposure of G6PD deficient red blood cells to copper produced marked elevations of methemoglobin and decreases in GSH when compared with normal red cells.


Chlorite, a by-product of chlorine dioxide disinfection of water, produced decreases in GSH and G6PD activity, while increasing methemoglobin levels markedly over red cells with normal G6PD activity.


The combined action of chlorite and copper was additive in producing increased levels of hemoglobin and decreases in levels of GSH and G6PD deficient cells.


The combined ingestion of copper and chlorite may represent an increased risk to persons with G6PD deficiency.

PMID: 7462905

1: J Environ Pathol Toxicol. 1980 Sep;4(2-3):465-70.Links


Groups at potentially high risk from chlorine dioxide treated water.


Moore GS, Calabrese EJ, Ho SC.


Chlorite, a by-product of chlorine dioxide disinfection of water, is a strong oxidant compound that produces markedly exaggerated effects in vitro on red cells of G6PD deficient humans when compared to normal human cells.


Levels of methemoglobin are significantly greater and GSH levels significantly lower in the G6PD deficient cells than in normal cells after chlorite exposure.


Persons with G6PD deficiency may be 3 to 4 times more likely to develop hemolytic anemia from chlorite exposure as persons with normal activity levels when GSH levels are used as a measure of susceptibility.


The proposed use of chlorine dioxide as an alternate disinfectant for drinking water supplies should consider this potential high risk group.

PMID: 7462914
 

---

Posted by CaliforniaLyme (Member # 7136) on :
 
The effect is synergistic with copper ingestion but I had a friend - haven't seen her in years- with Wilsons Syndrome (inability of body to process copper, terrible affliction to have but she was a lovely woman- still is I am sure-!!)
and copper is in SO MANY things including things oyu wouldn't even THINK of!!!

Did you know copper is in make-up foundations? She could not wear MANY foundations because there is copper in them!!! Copper is in foods and can be in foods cooked or kept in copper cans or pots!!

Anyway, so you may think, "Oh, I'll just AVOID copper!!" but from her, T, I know it ain't so easy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

---

Posted by CaliforniaLyme (Member # 7136) on :
 
Non-inclusive list of foods HIGH in copper-
*************************************************
WHAT ARE GOOD SOURCES OF COPPER?

FOOD SELECTED PERCENTAGE

SERVING SIZE U.S. RDA (1)

BREADS, CEREALS, AND OTHER GRAIN PRODUCTS

Barley, cooked 2/3 cup ++

English muffin, whole-wheat 1 +

Muffin, bran 1 medium +

Pita bread, whole-wheat 1 small +

FRUITS

Prunes, dried, cooked, unsweetened 1/2 cup +

VEGETABLES

Beans, lima, cooked 1/2 cup +

Mushrooms, cooked 1/2 cup +

Potato, baked or boiled, with skin 1 medium +

Sweetpotato, baked or boiled 1 medium +

Tomato juice cocktail 3/4 cup +

Turnip greens, cooked 1/2 cup +

MEAT, POULTRY, FISH, AND ALTERNATES

Meat and Poultry

Liver, braised:

Beef or calf 3 ounces +++

Chicken or turkey 1/2 cup diced +

Fish and Seafood

Clams; steamed, boiled, or

canned; drained 3 ounces +

Crabmeat, steamed 3 ounces ++

Lobster, steamed or boiled 3 ounces +++

Oysters:

Baked, broiled, or steamed 3 ounces +++

Canned, undrained 3 ounces +++

Shrimp; broiled, steamed,

boiled, or canned; drained 3 ounces +

Dry Beans, Peas, and Lentils

Beans, black-eyed peas (cowpeas),

or soybeans, cooked 1/2 cup +

Lentils, cooked 1/2 cup +

Nuts and Seeds

Almonds or cashews,

roasted or dry-roasted 2 tablespoons +

Brazil nuts, english walnuts,

filberts (hazelnuts), pine

nuts (pignolias) 2 tablespoons +

Mixed nuts, dry-roasted 2 tablespoons +

Peanuts, roasted 2 tablespoons +

Pistachio nuts, unroasted 2 tablespoons +

Pumpkin or squash seeds,

hulled, roasted 2 tablespoons +

Sesame seeds 2 tablespoons +

Sunflower seeds, hulled;

roasted, dry-roasted, or

unroasted 2 tablespoons +
 

---

Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
I am using apple cider vinegar and water. It does not taste too bad, mostly like vinegar.

I quit for a few days to see what would happen. Nothing at all, no bowel problems. I still can feel some slight pain in my surgical area if I eat something that I know does not sit well with me.
On average it seems to have improved my intestinal problems somewhat, but I am not cured of Crohn's, nor did I expect to be.

It could be a good treatment since it did seem to clear out a lot of bacteria as judged by my reaction after six drops or so. I have not been able to induce Diarrhea no matter what nasty thing I eat, which is unusual if you have Crohn's.

I am unable to judge any other effect since I am generally healthy otherwise. The parasite thing was gross, but I am going back on it today for a longer term to make sure I have all of those eliminated. They were most likely pin worms, since we have pets and I that would be a likely source.

I never would have thought I had parasites, but life is full of surprises, not always good ones.

D Bergy
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Good points, CALyme and Cave, although I'm quite sure the question of chlorites and chlorates was addressed in the MMS links or literature..... somewhere. But right now, I can't even bring up the old thread about MMS to find some links I never saved, so I don't know where I read about this. But I'm fairly certain that this concern was taken into consideration.

D Bergy, I'm sure any improvement on the Crohn's front is good news. Now, will it last or continue to get better? Keep us posted, please.

You might want to Google some photos of common intestinal worms. What you described does not sound like pinworms, but probably something equally as common. I even wondered if what you saw weren't a larval or immature stage, rather than adult.

I believe that GiGi recently posted about Dr. K's advice on tackling the `big' parasites first (like worms), then working downward on eliminating the smaller critters. So, he certainly acknowledges just how common parasites can be, and that getting rid of them is a top priority.
 

---

Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
I am sure most parasites are not even visible. I did a little searching, after I ate my dinner.

I think the ones I had a lot of were these tapeworm things found in pets. Not for the squeamish.

http://curezone.com/faq/a.asp?a=4,107,999&q=192&i=173

I do not know what the larger single critter was but that very well could have been a pin worm.
Here is a nasty video of them in action. Do not look at the video if you have a weak stomach.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/354/13/e12/DC1

The ironic part is that one treatment for Crohn's is to infect yourself with hook worms or whip worms and for some reason that lessens the symptoms. It is called Helminth therapy.
I actually could be making my symptoms worse by getting rid of the parasites.

I think I will take my chances. The MMS is so far not producing any new visible surprises. I hope I killed every last one of them.

D Bergy
 

---

Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
I agree, it is likely too simple. And even if it is not, it is still just another treatment. There are lots of treatments. This one would not be my first choice.

There is also a possible issue of parasitic relocation in which the parasites work there way into other organs.

Thank you for the link.

D Bergy
 

---

Posted by sizzled (Member # 1357) on :
 
Charlie, you've made me laugh so hard...I pee'd!
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Rumor has it that MMS is being sold on e-Bay with all kinds of claims attached to it, so it may not be long before this whole MMS thing gets shut down. Also, I heard that some shipment from Canada was intercepted by the FDA..... just rumors, mind you.

Yes, D Bergy, `parasitic relocation' is something I've wondered about, also.

I viewed some of the video. I reminded me of some little white worms - about as big around as a sewing needle or maybe a straight pin - that I started to see in my stool at times when I was about 10. Of course, I didn't tell my parents - I was afraid they would make me go to the doctor or make me quit playing with the dog or something. I had to do a short course of abx for something shortly after that, and I never saw the worms again. I just assumed they were gone........

I've done a couple of herbal parasite cleanses in recent years - never saw anything of interest come out. I really don't know how effective most of those cleanses are, though.

Since bacteria often are found inside parasites, perhaps that one reason why the Helminth therapy sort of works.... the bacteria infect the parasites more than they do you. Don't know - just trying to figure that one out.

Apparently, some people with Lyme who are trying the MMS are posting on another forum. I'll have to check it out when I get time.
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Hi, Sharon! OH, I see you are from Colorado, too. I'm on the West side of the mountains...... Welcome to LymeNet!

So, you are using the MMS for Lyme, and not necessarily the mold biotoxin issue?

***'' I do not consider $80 to qualify as a scam. Please $7B gone missing to Iraqi contractors yes that is a scam but $80? I spend more on prescription drugs that poison me.''***
Amen to that, Sharon.

Hi, NatureLover - gosh, another new person - Welcome! And thank you for your kind words.

Wow, two new people with open minds; how absolutely refreshing!

It may be of interest for both of you to know that the ``10,000+ poster'' was banned from LymeNet recently, not because of her skepticism (which is a healthy thing), but because her posts on nearly every `alternative' thread were so cynical and generally disruptive. Nature, I think your response to reading the previous pages is a prime example of the problem. Hopefully, we can all learn from that person's mistakes, and discussions about possible new treatments her on LymeNet - no matter how `crazy' they may seem to some - can be courteous and informative.

Oh, boy, Nature - starting at 15 drops? Just from reading what some others have done (on the Yahoo forum), most who have started that high ended up regretting it. They seem fine for a number of days, believe that they have passed the danger threshold, and then all of a sudden, the nausea sneaks up on them and suddenly they are sicker than 3 dogs.

You could be one sick, sick little guinea pig.

Sharon and Nature, I admire your willingness to give this a try. I don't know when I'll get to participate.... believe it or not, I've got some bigger issues to deal with than just Lyme, at the moment (yes, I know - hard to believe).

Please let us know your reactions to the MMS. I find that hearing experiences from real people can teach me things that reading a book, a website article, or a scientific study can't do.
 

---

Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
You can overload your kidneys and who knows what else if you promote too much die off at once.

I would reconsider starting out with 15 drops. My wife, who just started this treatment was in quite a lot of pain with two and three drops.

Lyme reproduces so slowly you really have nothing to gain by such a large beginning dose, but it could cause a lot of problems.

I do not want to see anyone getting hurt with this. Especially since it is quite powerful.

Good Luck

D Bergy
 

---

Posted by dmc (Member # 5102) on :
 
I asked the question and boy it became an explosion. Wonderful- debate, advise, comments, info. Thank you.
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Hey, NatureLover, I'm glad you decided to reconsider your initial.... enthusiasm.

It would be nice if hitting hard and fast were the ticket, but I don't recall reading about anyone who has tried that (with Lyme).

Even 7 drops is a fairly large dose, especially if you plan to do this every few hours.....

Looking forward to hearing your experiences (and your girlfriend's).

Oh, thanks for the update on Joyce (Healing in Santa Cruz) - I was wondering how she was doing. Now, the DMSO thing is quite interesting.......

D Bergy, how does your wife compare the effects of the MMS to the `herxes' from Rifing?

Hi, dmc! Quite a topic you started here.....
 

---

Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
When my wife uses the Rife machine, the herxes are just during the session and it takes away joint pain. Early on, the herx would last much longer.

The MMS makes virtually her whole body hurt. She has a lot of pain and stiffness in her spine. I do not ever remember anything that got Lyme in the spine before. The pain lasts 24 hours, but is tolerable. When she takes the next dose it increases. It seems to work long past the two hours it is supposed to last.

She has not done more than three drops so far. I don't think she could take any more than that and still function normally.

I am journaling the experience and I will post it after a few weeks.

Glad to hear moderation is being practiced. Keep in mind my son does not have Lyme so the chance of a bad herx was nil.

Just remembered that I got my blood test back and it showed nothing abnormal as far as the liver or anything else. I did have an increased white blood cell count from my last test. I took MMS at fifteen drops three days in a row before the blood was drawn. I do not have Lyme so this may be different for those that do, since i am not killing off spirochetes.

My Crohn's is not giving me any symptoms since I have used MMS.

Best Regards

D Bergy
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Still no symptoms of Crohn's, D Bergy!!! Wow. I'm impressed (hope you are, too).

I do hope you plan to do more MMS to make sure you get the `leftovers' of any of those parasites........

Interesting that your WBC is up..... my ex-boyfriend, who tested ultra-high on the Q-RIBb test exactly like I did, has almost no Lyme symptoms. BUT, when they check his WBC, it is always elevated. I think normal is below 10,000, and at one point, his was 19,000. The last one was around 14,000. I've always wondered if this isn't an indication that his immune system is fighting the Lyme, and mine just sort of gave up years ago.....

Thanks for the info about your wife's `herxes'. My back and spine problems are still my most disabling symptoms, so I can probably expect a similar experience to what your wife is going through.

NatureLover, I sort of suspected that you hadn't been ill for a long time..... good to hear! And perhaps hitting the bugs pretty hard right off the bat would be the best course of action for a recent infection/manifestation. I do see your line of thinking on this.

Thanks for the feedback on your first doses.... looking forward to more reports.
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Thanks, NatureLover -

I'm trying to remember what has been said about mixing the MMS with juices..... there were some specifics about it that seemed pretty important. D Bergy probably remembers. There has been a lot of discussion about 'mixing' over on the MDI Yahoo group.

Hmmm. Are you going to be able to sort out the effects of the Polygonum versus the MMS?

I thought I would pass this on...... part of a message from Gobal Light Network (supplier of MMS and other products):

quote:

---

The volume of business continues to expand as the excitement about MMS and all our other products seems to be exploding, and we are scrambling to keep up with the orders. We are so busy meeting the demand for the various MMS products, as well as all the others, that we are adding another assistant in the production warehouse next week.

.....Just one more comment before I leave the subject of MMS. If you have experienced good results with MMS, share your experience with one of the BLOGs or discussion groups on the Internet so that others can benefit from your experience. Perhaps you could share it with Jim Humble by sending him an email at [email protected], putting "Stories of Success" in the subject line.

---

quote:

---

About an hour after taking the MMS, if you begin to experience pain at the bottom of your stomach - top of your gut, you might want to take the antidote. The antidote, to avoid more cramping and diarrhea, is to mix a teaspoon of baking soda (or an alka seltzer) into a glass of water and sip it down. If you chug it, you might throw up. If your dose is large you might want to throw up, so do so. Then take more baking soda and water and sip it slowly over the space of 30-60 minutes. Your symptoms should disappear mostly by then.

The other possibilbity is to take 1000 mg of vitamin C. Your choice. But not both. The baking soda worked fine for me last night and was quite pleasant to take. My friend took the C and barfed, then the soda. She did 15 drops [of MMS] on an empty stomach on her second dose. I find I handle MMS best about an hour after my evening meal.

---

(It sounds like the Vitamin C didn't work all that well for the one person.....)
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Hi, Arrow - welcome back.... or welcome again.... well, .... just welcome!

I appreciate what you and others are doing over at the HealthSalon site. I can't remember seeing references in the testimonials as to where the original posts came from, and I think that might lend more `credibility' to the post. People can then check out the original post for themselves if they have doubts about whether the comments are valid.

Uh-oh. No post from NatureLover yet tonight..... I hope he didn't end up praying to the Porcelain God.....

NatureLover, hope you are okay..... and regarding one of your posts, above..... you are going to get better. Believe me, I know your frustration, and I will even go so far as to admit that it is probably worse for a man than a woman. But with your determination, the glass really is half-full in this case.

D Bergy said:
***''My wife had to give it a rest. The MMS is just too powerful for her to take continuously.....She may go back on it in a day or two. I would like to know more about the warning below before proceeding. She feels much better today after she stopped.''***

***''There have been a couple of warnings surfacing about possible Thyroid damage from using MMS. I have not heard any people reporting of actual damage so I am assuming this is a theoretical risk. Since no one knows what side effects could surface I feel I should mention this.''***

I saw this warning, too. And I can't understand what was written the link you posted, either. But I've not heard of anyone actually experiencing this. One person taking the MMS had a thyroid test done and their levels came out normal. The only other thing I can offer is this, which was posted over on the MDI group:

quote:

---

``.... chlorine dioxide is known to reduce T4 output. It appears to do that by oxidizing iodide in the gut into other iodine forms. The authors conclude:

``Currently, we hypothesize that some as-yet unknown iodinated molecule forming in trace quantities in the alimentary tract is responsible for the thyroid inhibition seen during C102 exposure. It is anticipated that such compounds form in vivo in very small amounts even at 100 ppm C102 concentration; therefore, they must possess extraordinary biological activity.''

---

quote:

---

To assess the relative safety of chronically administered chlorine water disinfectants in man, a controlled study was undertaken. The clinical evaluation was conducted in the three phases common to investigational drug studies.

Phase I, a rising dose tolerance investigation, examined the acute effects of progressively increasing single doses of chlorine disinfectants to normal healthy adult male volunteers. Phase II considered the impact on normal subjects of daily ingestion of the disinfectants at a concentration of 5 mg/l. for twelve consecutive weeks.

Persons with a low level of glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase may be expected to be especially susceptible to oxidative stress; therefore, in Phase III, chlorite at a concentration of 5 mg/l. was administered daily for twelve consecutive weeks to a small group of potentially at-risk glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase-deficient subjects.

Physiological impact was assessed by evaluation of a battery of qualitative and quantitative tests. The three phases of this controlled double-blind clinical evaluation of chlorine dioxide and its potential metabolites in human male volunteer subjects were completed uneventfully.

There were no obvious undesirable clinical sequellae noted by any of the participating subjects or by the observing medical team. In several cases, statistically significant trends in certain biochemical or physiological parameters were associated with treatment; however, none of these trends was judged to have physiological consequence.

One cannot rule out the possibility that, over a longer treatment period, these trends might indeed achieve proportions of clinical importance.

However, by the absence of detrimental physiological responses within the limits of the study, the relative safety of oral ingestion of chlorine dioxide and its metabolites, chlorite and chlorate, was demonstrated.

---

 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Arrow, the product is Dioxychlor - I've used it and posted a little about in on page 3 here in this thread. In fact, I have an old unopened bottle of it and drug it out the other day..... don't know if it will still be good after a few years...... I can tell you that I never experienced anything while taking it like the MMS users have. But you are only supposed to take it a few days, then off a few days..... And it is way more expensive than MMS.

Since you mentioned severe homeopathic `herxes' (aggravations), PLEASE give the `Aggravation Zapper' a try. There is nothing to buy, it is really easy, and has worked for me, my ex-boyfriend, and of course, my homeopath!
http://www.hpathy.com/papersnew/fuller-aggravation-zapper.asp
 

---

Posted by Greatcod (Member # 7002) on :
 
However, by the absence of detrimental physiological responses within the limits of the study, the relative safety of oral ingestion of chlorine dioxide and its metabolites, chlorite and chlorate, was demonstrated.

The question is about concentrations..sort of like bleach, you can water it down to where it has no impact whatsoever, or concentrated it can kill you.
I consider it dangerous to play expert with
people's health by describing this stuff as a medicine and declaring it not dangerous.
I have no idea who Jim Humble is, or what he knows, or what evidence there is that this stuff
works on anything, or is not dangerous in the concentrations used.
Lymenet really ought to consider its legal position letting people play doctor with
things like this..pathetic.
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Ah, free societies..... ya gotta love `em.

Safety is an unknown issue with MMS, especially using it past 3 months or so. I've seen no claims here to the contrary. We simply don't know enough. And as is evident in this thread, those genuinely interested in MMS bring these safety issues up themselves.

By all means, anyone aware of genuine evidence that MMS will harm us, please post about it.

Beyond that, bringing up the safety issues time and again with no new `evidence' is like beating a dead horse, at best. It becomes a speculative debate leading nowhere.

Even if there were hundreds of scientific, peer-reviewed, double-blind, placebo-controlled studies done on MMS, I doubt that we would all agree on any final conclusions (if the ILADS / IDSA debate is any indication, and perhaps the debate over the `cause' of Global Warming is another).

I've read several explanations by ``experts'' about why Rife machines can't possibly work. But then there's that pesky evidence out there indicating just the opposite.

Recently, I posted a topic about a rather unprecedented debate on homeopathy taking place on October 25th at the University of Connecticut Medical School. Within that thread, several sources of studies on ``the scientific proofs of efficacy'' homeopathy were cited, and yet not one of the `critical thinkers' even bothered to comment. That was kind of surprising when homeopathy is an oft-maligned system of medicine on this board.

So, I don't know what to think.... were they the wrong kinds of studies? Were they done by the wrong people? (Or were the conclusions just not what the skeptics wanted to hear?) Did anybody bother to watch the debate?

``I buy you books and you eat the covers.'' I think maybe this old saying fits here.

We can only offer you what there is; if that isn't enough then you have the choice of avoiding that particular treatment system.

Mini, I'll repeat what I posted to you in another thread, and perhaps you will comment this time. Greatcod and others, feel free to comment, also.

Some of us have lost faith in science, in general, and peer-reviewed studies and research in particular. When Marcia Angell, a former editor of the New England Journal of Medicine, is concerned about it then I tend to be, also.

And I read that a few years ago, the NEJM basically gave up trying to find truly independent doctors to write and review articles for the journal. Then there are the ``ghost writers'' who write articles for the esteemed doctors because the docs have no time to do it. The whole procedure isn't looking very `unbiased' at the moment.

I don't want to divert this thread, but perhaps a different thread would be in order in the near future - started by those of you who understand and trust the system - about why peer-review is so important, how we know when to trust the findings, the reviewers, etc. Just a thought. I know enough to know that I don't know enough about this.

There have been complaints lately about not enough discussions at LymeNet based on `science'. Well, convince me that `science' is where I should put my faith. (And please don't post a link to some study or article - most regular folks can't navigate those studies and understand them. We need a little more help than that.)
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
D Bergy, you said:

***''Some one posted on another site that Chlorine Dioxide is used by vets quite a lot for treating animals. Usually livestock such as chickens. Not sure if that is the case or not. Can anyone confirm This?''***

I've seen discussions about this over on the MDI Group. What I have seen lately was about research on this, not about any vets/ ranchers/ chicken farmers using it already.

But I think there was some reference in past discussions to ClO2 being used already on animals, but I wasn't paying attention to that topic. I would offer to go back and look for the discussions, but I found it very difficult to search those Yahoo group comments.

If I see anything new, I'll post about it.
 

---

Posted by Greatcod (Member # 7002) on :
 
Anyone with Lyme has lost some faith in medical science, no question.
But what's the other side of the equation? So many lives lost because of pharmaceuticals, but how many lives saved?

What about all the operations that require drugs to complete successfully, say joint replacements or appendectomies?

Natural medicine provides no substitutes for the thousands and thousands of drugs that Big Pharma
manufactures, nor any solutions to literally thousands of conditions that medical science treats with some success.

If you came down with bloodborne MRSA, would you rather be treated with Vancomycin or herbs?

Argueably also, because the true effectiveness of herbs on various conditions has never been studied, we simply don't know how well they work, nor what the long term consequences are.
Traditional medicines were not set up to measure
and report their effectiveness or side effects of their treatments.

If you want to believe that they are as effective as drugs, that's fine with me. But I have no idea how anyone could actually know that.
 

---

Posted by Looking (Member # 13600) on :
 
Hi Arrowwind:

I believe there is a typo in the link you gave above.

Should it be: www.HealthSalon.org


Looking
 

---

Posted by kelmo (Member # 8797) on :
 
Wouldn't it be better for Lymenet if you moved your Miracle cure to a Yahoo Group club?

This seems to be a cheerleading team of about five people. Most of whom have joined in the last 30 days, and of those, there is no mention of having Lyme.

This isn't productive....it's a promotion.
 

---

Posted by hiker53 (Member # 6046) on :
 
Greatcod,

Just wanted to point out that some strains of MRSA are now resistant to vancomycin. So, I would have to know what kind of MRSA I had to be treated.

I do agree that people using MMS should exercise caution, but if they choose to use it, fine. I look forward to their future reports. Hiker53
 

---

Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
I would think that if MMS does end up working well or badly for Lyme that some of the members of the Lymenet group would be interested in that information.

The other posters that are participating are experienced with MMS or other related treatments. I am sure they have better things to do than hang out here. They are seeking the same answers. If they can help along the way, all the better.

As far as the "cheerleading" goes, once again people who have no experience, expertise or interest in the subject being discussed are derailing the thread. Many complain about it, but it does not seem to change the situation.

I have never gone on a antibiotic thread and started badmouthing the treatment or the results or lack of them. Or the persons way of discussing it, or who discusses it, or what is discussed. I simply have the good sense to stick with what I know and let others do the same.

All I ask is to have one thread here that I could communicate with people who are interested in the same subject without being harassed at every turn. Why is that impossible here? It is not the subjects here that cause the problems. It is the lack of tolerance for anything outside of someones particular box and lack of common courtesy.

This really is about finding effective treatments that are relatively safe. At least that is what it should be about.

The problem seems to be that there is some kind of intolerance to new or novel treatments. If people are going to experiment with it why not get the benefit of their experience? I simply do not understand why those that do not agree with using it or prefer another method of treatment simply cannot ignore the thread that is clearly titled and about MMS.

If you actually look at the potential of a powerful bacterial killer that we know is capable of killing multiple strains of pathogens in other applications you can see why it makes sense to test it out. If it is possible to kill Lyme, coinfections, parasites all in one product think how much simpler and more effective that treatment would be. I have no idea if it can do this, but that is what we are trying to find out.

And since the participants are doing this of there own free will, even though the risks are unknown, it would be a waste not to share the results.

And as I have said several times, this is not for most people and if you are not prepared to suffer the possible consequences of using an unknown treatment than do not do it. And if something bad happens at least others will be discouraged from trying it, if they are aware of it.

Is there something wrong with pursuing a better treatment for Lyme?

D Bergy
 

---

Posted by TerryK (Member # 8552) on :
 
NatureLover, DGB, Lover, truth and others - you have done a good job of responding to those who have concerns about the product.

Those of you whose purpose it is to bring up warnings about the possible safety issues of this product have done so. Thank you, no need to continue with the exact same warnings. Anyone reading this thread will get it.

If you have NEW information regarding your warnings, then by all means feel free to share it. Otherwise, please appreciate that some members of lymenet would like to hear experiences of those using this product and we have a right to hear those experiences. If you don't want to hear it, then don't continue reading. This forum is set up so that you don't have to read everything. You can avoid reading it by simply NOT opening the thread.

NatureLover, you have one of the more mature attitudes that I've seen on Lymenet. I completely agree. Those who are trying to discuss their experience don't need to feel that they must continue to respond to the same issues over and over.

I've often seen this type of discussion turn into an all out brawl which requires that the thread be deleted and people end up banned.

Good job everyone! This has been a fairly reasonable discussion. With respect, now it's time to move on unless you have something new to add.

Terry
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Arrow, thanks very much for posting about your constipation issues, and the lasting effects of the MMS. Constipation (acquired megacolon) is a HUGE issue for me, which is just one reason I was interested in D Bergy's experiences with the MMS. I am interested in all those who report improved GI conditions. Many, many members here suffer GI problems that appear to be directly related to Lyme Disease.

(You didn't comment on my ``Aggravation Zapper'' suggestion, so don't' know if you saw it or just not interested. So, I'll bring it up again here in case you missed it.)

GC, as usual, you state as fact what is clearly only your opinion. If you only knew how dead wrong you are about some things.....

Since there are people involved in this thread with Lyme that are taking MMS, I'll let the moderators decide if they think this discussion is good for LymeNet or not. Those truly interesting in hearing from others about their experiences treating Lyme won't be offended or embarrassed by this topic.

Thanks for the updates, NatureLover. BTW, I never did order any of the citric acid. I decided early on that I would use lemon juice for some of the reasons you stated.

You know, I was thinking today..... I can't say that I've read about anyone else that is taking both the MMS and abx. I don't think Joyce is (Healing in S.C.), and the 2 or 3 Lymies on the MDI group did not mention it so I am assuming they are not either. Have you run across other Lymies doing both?

Also, did you say that your girlfriend won't be starting the MMS for awhile?

BTW, my ex-boyfriend of 6 years ended up testing ultra-high positive for Lyme with the Q-RIBb test. His test was identical to mine. He has developed only a few neuro symptoms, like occasional twitches and tremors, which his doc attributes to the natural `aging process', and of course, offered him some drug to help that if it became `problematic'. Hmmmpf.

Hi, hiker! Thanks for popping in.
 

---

Posted by sizzled (Member # 1357) on :
 
So, let me get this right. You'all are drinking BLEACH?



P.S.

Thank heavens, Greatcod has tried to put some reasoning into this thread!!!!!!!!!!

Welp, I'm outta here!
 

---

Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
Thank you for the intelligent input.

D Bergy
 

---

Posted by Looking (Member # 13600) on :
 
Just trying to understand the chemistry here -- any chemistry majors to verify this info?

There is no chlorine (Cl2) in chlorine dioxide (ClO2). Although chlorine dioxide has the word chlorine in its name, the two chemicals have completely different chemical structures. The additional oxygen atom radically changes the molecule and creates completely different chemical behaviors and by-products.

Their differences are as profound as those between hydrogen, the explosive gas (H2), and hydrogen combined with oxygen, which creates dihydrogen oxide (H2O)--commonly called water.

Household bleach has a chemical formula of NaOCl - that is, one atom each of sodium, oxygen, and chlorine -- so different formula than chlorine dioxide.

The FDA has approved the use of Chlorine Dioxide in toothpaste, mouthwash & other dental applications at the appropriate strength. Anything you put in your mouth can get absorbed by the body so this is not sounding so dangerous.

Chlorine Dioxide removes pathogens from surfaces and is a great cleaning product. Vinegar removes pathogens from surfaces and is a great cleaning product. People also ingest vinegar without harm. So just because Chlorine Dioxide is used in disinfecting doesn't prove it's dangerous to ingest.

I am not using this product but I am interested in the experiment here and trying to understand the facts about ClO2.

Looking
 

---

Posted by Greatcod (Member # 7002) on :
 
The concentrations are part of the dangerousness
problem..how many ppm.
Also, it may kill your gut bacteria.
 

---

Posted by Looking (Member # 13600) on :
 
Thanks, GC. So if anyone does try this it sounds like it would be wise to supplement with probiotics as we do when taking antibiotics.

Looking
 

---

Posted by map1131 (Member # 2022) on :
 
i would love to kill some gut bacteria. The bad bacteria that just seems to be so resistant to abx, rife, etc. In fact this bad bacteria isn't just resistant, is lives and multiplies itself.

I put billions of good bacteria in my gut trying to out number the bad guys and the bad guy always seem to win in the end. This along with the other thousand or so dollars I've spent on something to help my gut down to my colon. The really bad part is I can't identify this bad guy......so I really am at a loss on how to kill it???? No wonder my rife machine hasn't gotten rid of it yet.

This unknown bad bacteria is making my GI a mess. So like D. Bergy and his wife I'm really wanting to find a way to beat it. (The bad bacteria)

Pam
 

---

Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
I did not find the need to take probiotics during use. I deliberately avoided taking them to see if I would suffer any ill effects.

Once my initial loose stool and D was done with I could take it without any detectable effect.

But it may be different for different people and I do not have Lyme, so taking a probiotic would be a good idea.

Personally, I would not go over 15 drops for anything and start at one always. There is bound to be someone who is chemically sensitive of has a reaction to this like anything else. If you can imagine someone with a peanut sensitivety eating a mitt full of peanuts you get the idea.

A person with Lyme is going to likely react to very low dosages. My wife could not go over three drops and she quit taking it when symptoms became to much for her to be comfortable. You really need to go slow for many reasons. Over doing it seems to be the thing that has caused the most problems particularly with Cancer patients. I do not have the details but Cancer is very touchy using MMS one doctor reports.

He has not heard of any Lyme patients having problems, but these are just incidents that he has heard of and he is not actively investigating MMS use.

Please be careful.

D Bergy
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
I've been wondering about MMS as a possible `preventative' immediately after a known tick bite (or other suspect creatures).

I have my own homeopathic `after tick bite, spider bite, and snake bite' remedies, but not everyone will want to use homeopathy.

Many people have reported their horror stories about trying to talk their local duck into prescribing antibiotics after the patient knows they have been bitten. No rash = no treatment, right?

Well perhaps we would all be wise to get a little MMS to keep as a ``tick bite'' remedy. Why not get a jump start on killing pathogens the minute they enter the body?

According to Jim Humble, besides wiping out disease organisms, chlorine dioxide tends to neutralize poisons. So there could be other uses for MMS, as well.

This is from Book One by Jim Humble.......

quote:

---

Almost all substances that are poisonous to the body are to some extent acetic in nature or below the neutrality of the body. The Chlorine dioxide will neutralize many of these poisons. We believe that can be the only explanation why a malaria patient often goes from totally sick to totally well in less than four hours). The poisons that malaria generates are neutralized by the chlorine dioxide at the same time the parasites are killed.

I dosed a dog that was bitten by a rattlesnake I gave him a drink of the solution every 2 hours. The dog seemed to know it would help him and he drank it right down each time I gave it to him. He was okay in a few hours which would indicate that the poison was probably neutralized by the chlorine dioxide.

---

quote:

---

The most efficient way of ending this battle is for "dmc" to delete the thread.

I don't see anything here that is HELPFUL to Lymenet or its members.

---

It's helpful to those of us who are interested in the subject and there are quite a few if you read the thread.

The conduct of several members on this thread is standard troll conduct. They have nothing to add, they just want the thread deleted.

Terry
 

---

Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
 
Well, I'm not a troll....but think this arguing is useless.
 

---

Posted by TerryK (Member # 8552) on :
 
Tutu,
I did not mean that *you* were a troll. I believe this is your first post in this thread.

Tutu, it is surprising that you concluded that there was no benefit here when so many of us have outright said that we want to hear about this product. Please read the thread before you recommend that it be deleted. The nastiness is coming from a few people as is plain to see.

Everyone, if the best way to deal with arguing is to delete a thread, there will be very little left in the archives at Lymenet and a small group of people will be allowed to control the content by starting an argument in any topic that they don't want to see discussed. Is that what we want?

The best way for the arguing to stop is for the people who have nothing NEW to add to SOB.

We have heard and addressed your (the people who have voiced concerns about the product) concerns to the best of our ability. We get that you don't approve. Now please let us discuss this in peace.

I hope you will read the troll thread and see your behavior in it.
http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=006454

Terry

[ 18. November 2007, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: TerryK ]
 

---

Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
 
Sorry....I'll just not read this one. That way the arguing won't bother me.

Pretend I wasn't here!
 

---

Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
All of the comments keep the thread at the top. Never have any trouble finding it.

I do not have too much to report since we are moving and my wife does not want to start back up until we are done. She will probably start again the middle of next week.

One interesting effect she had is that all of her nerves including her spine were affected by the MMS.

After she quit, it took a few days for the nerve pain to go away. It reminded me of the same effect often experienced by MS patient taking Low Dose Naltrexone. At first they have increased nerve pain as the nerves heal, the then later it lessens and usually goes away. Many parallels between Lyme and MS. No wonder diagnosis of one or the other is so difficult. Could even be different forms of the same disease. Yet they are just different enough to keep everyone guessing.

My Crohn's is not giving me any trouble yet. I am surprised that the effect is lasting this long. But I will take what I can get.

Hope every one is doing well and getting well.

D Bergy
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Thanks, D Bergy. I must say, I am impressed that your Crohn's has been quiet this long....

NatureLover, I'm so glad you said that this thread was important to you.... I was afraid you were fed up with the negativity and might not even be back.

It's important to me, too.

Thanks for your detailed updates - it all helps to get a real 'feel' for your experience.

As to the taste, didn't Jim Humble say in his book that he adds like 3 spoonfuls of fructose (it might have been sucrose)into his mix to mask the taste? That might be an option to try before switching to the lemon or lime.
 

---

Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
The vinegar method does not taste too good either, but it is tolerable.

I am not sure what an emotional herx is. Maybe this is what you are describing.

My wife had some strange episodes when we first started treating with Cumanda and Samento. She would go off on some minor problem like it was a huge deal and start crying and kind of go off the deep end. This was not in character at all for her and I was glad Klutso warned me about this behavior. I would have thought she was losing her mind otherwise. Luckily for both of us these episodes are a thing of the past.

While my Crohn's is not giving me a problem yet, the MMS did not clear up my psoriasis. I swear it is the most difficult thing to get rid of. It is better than it was originally but will not go away altogether. It actually has some indication of possible blood poisoning. Scratching it raw probably did not help it out any. I will have to have my father look at it. He has had blood poisoning many times, and knows what it looks like.

Can't win them all I guess.

D Bergy
 

---

Posted by Looking (Member # 13600) on :
 
Dear Nature Lover:

Thank you so much for sharing your experiences with MMS with us. It's sad that the disruptors here who obviously have no respect for honest debate about a product may have railroaded you off this thread. Don't worry though as this only makes people more curious to learn.

I pray you have success with your treatment for lyme and can reclaim the energy of your youth soon. As you know, the majority of people posting here were interested in your journey with MMS -- you were very generous to discuss it with us and lymenet is diminished by your departure.

If you decide to journal your experiences anywhere else I would like to read about them and I know others would too. Take care.

D Bergy, I am looking forward to your continued posts on this subject. The information coming from someone who has actually taken the product is enlightening and more valuable than a lot of conjecture.

Looking
 

---

Posted by hiker53 (Member # 6046) on :
 
Why was Nature Lover banned and all her comments on MMS removed. I found them to be very informative. Hiker53
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Hiker and Looking,

I'm trying to find out what happened here.

At this point, it doesn't make any sense.

I've finally managed to connect with both parties (Arrow and NatureLover), so will see if there's some reason for what has happened.
 

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Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
 
i don't understand what happened here. why was naturelover banned? s/he was respectful in all his/her posts here, unlike SOME people on this board who for some unknown reason are allowed to keep posting cruel remarks over and over and over again.

????
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Ali, I understand your concern. But please bear in mind that in the alternative realm, we simply cannot avoid capitalism. Personally, if I discovered a product that really helped me with my Lyme Disease, Crohn's Disease, or any disorder, heck yes I would be tempted to sell it!!! Just ask Lymetoo - she knows what I'm talking about. And frankly, I would welcome hearing about a product from someone who knows a lot about it - and that might be someone who sells it.

Does that mean a person - a seller - should be banned from LymeNet or from certain discussions? Or that the product can't be discussed or trusted because it may be sold by just regular folks?

LymeNet is concerned about members making money from other people on this forum - either directly or indirectly - and rightfully so. I wholeheartedly support that premise.

And this may be why one member recently got banned from LymeNet. I do not know.

I was going to post Jenifer's recent post about solicitation here at LymeNet, but rather than take up space here, please see Jenifer's thread posted 11/2/07 in Off Topic. She talks about what is allowed and what isn't.

There are some comments and suggestions on that thread, which may be of interest. I just posted there and I encourage others to do the same. Perhaps we can come up with some kind of solution that the Moderators/ Administrators would entertain. Let's put our heads together and see if there isn't some kind of workable resolution.

Thread about Solicitation and LymeNet posted by Jenifer:
http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=006438

Meanwhile, I'm still looking into what happened here on this thread.

[ 05. December 2007, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: Jenifer ]
 

---

Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
Apparently a couple of people were banned and their comments deleted. I do not know for what reason, but I did not see anything on this thread that would justify this response.

The politics of this are obviously getting in the way of what should be a simple discussion on a possible new treatment. I think the detracters can proudly say "mission accomplished".

I will keep posting on our results using MMS as long as I am able, whenever we have something to report. If I am banned for some reason, I will not come back. I do not go where I am not welcome. It is not my site, and the owners are free to do as they see fit.

Regarding the selling of MMS.
Why is it that the only product that has the unique distinction of having to be given away is MMS? The profit margin is far less than any patentable treatment. The fact that someone is selling it means you can buy it. It does not get much simpler than that. And if lots of people sell it, the price automatically goes down even further from all of the competition.
There seems to be a lack of understanding of how a free market works in reality.

D Bergy
 

---

Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
 
Thanks Tracy. If I found something that helped me, I would post the info here to share. I may find things that will help & I will post them as I do, but they're promissing "cures".

Knowing what I know about these creepy little spirochetes, I'd want serious autopsy evidence that those little are truly gone before I'd accept the term "cure" from anyone. That's a very hefty claim and it makes me nervous.

I'm having a heck of a job sorting through what's going on here, as I had previously SOBd.

I decided to look because it seems to have garnered so much attention & apparently something about this thread is causing people to be banned.

Another concern I had seen raised earlier was about claims on the website of having cured AIDS in 3 days? Claims on the website to cure a myriad of different illnesses in very short time frames?

I poked around on the site a little bit & came across some updates on use for cancer & things to do (buy from people) if it's not working.

I also read the FDA's warning on internet scams and frankly, I see so many reasons for concern here I think it's likely not something I would personally try.

Someone had mentioned SeaMinerals. My DH got the check in the mail from the SeaMinerals too.

I'm wondering how the FDA controls the selling of a book. I don't think they can. The people promoting the health claims on the site seem to me to be only selling a book.

There are links to people who are selling the actual MMS, but they seem to avoid direct connection. Perhaps the book's author has a connection to those "seperately" marketing the supplement & that is how the book is given away free for the asking, from the goodness of his heart, with so little profit?

I'm sorry to those of you who are genuinely interested in this supplement. I know we'd all like to find the easy cure to help save each other from this awful disease, but somehow I personally don't think this will be the answer we're hoping/praying for.

This is just my take on this and I would really like to hope that this will work for those of you who are trying it, but it really seems too fishy for me.


As for some thoughts on people being banned here. I haven't a clue what went on, so I'm just throwing out a thought here.

Controversial threads like this one actually draw trolls. They like to get involved with stirring the pot.

I'm thinking that maybe the moderators are weeding through and sorting them out. They seem to be much better at recognizing them than I am.
They can mintor activity & IP addresses and determine what was merely presented for the purpose of self-entertainment.

Again, I wasn't watching so I don't know if the banned posters fit the bill.

Those of you who are trying this, I wish you good results. I really do. I just think I'll avoid this one until it gains more recognition, too many red flags for me.


Ali
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Ali, you are the type of `skeptic' (for lack of a better term) I appreciate and like to see make posts on threads like this. You are tentative, but search for answers anyway. And when you find something that concerns you, you bring it to everyone's attention in a courteous manner. This is how we find answers; this is how we have decent discussions and dialog.

Every one of your concerns is valid, in my opinion.

Yes, there are claims on the website of diseases like Malaria and AIDS being eradicated in very short time periods. But nowhere will you find that claim about Lyme, not on the website or in Jim Humble's books.

Lyme is a tougher nut to crack, and Humble makes suggestions in his book(s) about this. So, there is nothing `easy' about treating Lyme with MMS, nor should it be expected to be a `quick fix'. But it may be quicker than orthodox methods. That's what we are trying to find out here: if it works, if it is tolerable, how long it takes, the side effects, any dangers if used properly, etc.

Bear in mind, too, that I know of another `alternative cure' going on in Africa for AIDS. In that case, the maker of the `cure' has found that his treatment for AIDS in Africa DOES NOT WORK AS WELL on AIDS in the U.S. or other developed countries. He speculates that this is because those people in Africa who have actually survived to adulthood can do so only because they have such strong immune systems, and because they do not have our modern toxins and contaminants to deal with. Sadly, the mortality rate for children in Africa is horrible.

So, what works on Africans may not work nearly as well on us.

Yes, the website only sells the book, and I believe the proceeds go to the effort in Africa. I can't remember now about that.

Jim Humble can't possibly have connections to all the sellers; literally, I could make it up and sell it if I wanted to.

This is certainly not a treatment for everyone, and particularly not at this time, when so little is really known.

And you are certainly right about trolls being attracted to threads like this.

I've written to Jenifer about what occurred here with folks being banned, since even those who got banned do not know why it happened. I hope that this will be clarified for us in the near future. If nothing else, we need to understand the reasons for the banning so that we don't inadvertently do something to get banned ourselves!
 

---

Posted by map1131 (Member # 2022) on :
 
UNbelievable!!!!!!!!!!

Pam
 

---

Posted by Cobweb (Member # 10053) on :
 
"miracle mineral-is it hooey?"

YES-IMHO
 

---

Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
 
I started backtracking to see if I could figure out who Pam's "UNbelieveable was directed at. I didn't figure it out yet.

I did come across this:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Truthfinder:

Arrow, the product is Dioxychlor - I've used it and posted a little about in on page 3 here in this thread. In fact, I have an old unopened bottle of it and drug it out the other day..... don't know if it will still be good after a few years...... I can tell you that I never experienced anything while taking it like the MMS users have. But you are only supposed to take it a few days, then off a few days..... And it is way more expensive than MMS.

---

I couldn't find what "arrow" said.

I believe reading on the MMS site that they compared it to Dioxychlor, stating that it was the same thing but stronger??

I followed some links & ended up at an FDA site showing an approval for the use of Chlorine Dioxide, incorporated into packaging for fruits & vegetables. The info in the approval showed that it would not be directly consumed.

I also came across a warning on a Canadian site stating that people were using it for IV?! I know that's not what's being suggested here, thank goodness.

I am a little concerned for your safety with the dosages being ingested.

If the Dioxychlor is approved for marketing, I would think that they have found the dosages & recommendations for use stated on it to be safe.


If you are ingesting higher dosages without breaks would that be OK?

Is it the same as taking the Dioxychlor but in higher dosage for longer time periods without breaks?


Pam, if the UNbelievable was for me, I'm just trying to be helpful but don't have the mental stamina to make it through this thread from start to finish.

I've been caught up in my own perils and am merely trying to look out for those who struggle along with me. Please be patient with my efforts to understand what's going on.

If it was for something else that didn't concern me, then just ignore me please, because I didn't get it. Thanks.
 

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Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
 
I'm wondering why, if this kind of benefit is possible with Dioxychlor, THEY haven't marketed it as such.

Sure MMS may be cheaper & stronger than the Dioxychlor, but I can't believe that if these "miracle" 3 less than 1 week cures were possible, the MFG of Dioxychlor wouldn't have been all over it.

I know someone who has been battling AIDS for 18 years and I think that's a pretty tough nut to crack (IMO). I'd rank that right up there with Lyme except it has more attention.

I think that someone out there would be conducting the scientific research necessary to get this stuff to market, just think of all the $$$ they could make on AIDS alone with the right approvals.
 

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Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
 
i may be wrong, but i'm pretty sure the 'UNbelieveable' was directed at the few UNBELIEVEABLY rude detractors in this post, and the fact that naturelover and arrow have been banned & had their posts deleted for no apparent reason. i don't think it was directed at you, ali.
 

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Posted by map1131 (Member # 2022) on :
 
No Ali, it wasn't directed to you at all.
I was too angry at that moment to post anything else. So I decided I'd better calm down and use my energy to try to help someone.

Pam
 

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Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
 
Thanks heiwalove.

I think maybe that's part of what's making it tough to follow the conversation here. There's apparently a lot that's been pulled out and it makes it a little confusing.

I started to think maybe I should just drop it and move on but I guess I'm getting a little OCD over figuring this all out.

If noone could really be hurt by it then I really could just butt out & check back later for results, but the Dioxychlor reference on the site & Tracy's post about how that was supposed to be taken have me a little concerned.
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Pardon me for changing the subject, but has anyone noticed that this thread keeps getting smaller....?

.... I think minitails2 has disappeared from here, also.

Oh, drat. I think I heard the plumber pulling up outside.... gotta run.
 

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Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
 
Thanks Pam.

I get a little nervous lately when I try to be helpful on a controversial thread. I'm always expecting someone to come out of somewhere and yell at me because something didn't come out right and I accidentally offended them.

I do try really hard not to be offensive and to show my genuine concern, so I'm not really sure why I feel that way. I think the board battles are making me a bit paranoid, it feels like walking on eggshells.

I try to re-read my posts before I send them, to see if they can be misinterpreted, though I don't always get to. It can be really stressful getting involved, that's why I've been SOBing a lot.

That's a really good tactic - to avoid posting when you're feeling angry, let yourself diffuse & then come back. Maybe if more people tried that, less feelings would be hurt.


Ali

[ 19. November 2007, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: AliG ]
 

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Posted by map1131 (Member # 2022) on :
 
Oh, drat. I think I heard the plumber pulling up outside....gotta run.


Truth, was that a intended pun? Oh, that was run, not runs? Makes sense now. There's nothing like taking two steps forward and three back. (Especially in this day and age)

Pam
 

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Posted by TerryK (Member # 8552) on :
 
Alig,
Thank you for your posts and the concerns you have brought up. I too really appreciate the way that you've brought them up and discussed them in a reasonable and helpful way.

Thanks so much!

A number of posts have been deleted. That's why the conversation is so hard to follow.

Terry
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Well, Pam - the pun didn't even apply as it turned out to be the Schwan's guy and not the plumber. So, today, I play the waiting game again..... hoping the plumber will get here. Sheesh. Glad doctors don't function like this.

Actually, Ali, I'm more interested in the IV use of MMS than the oral stuff. I think it may be way more effective. Obviously, you can't do an IV thing at home, though.

I don't know how to answer your questions regarding comparison with Dioxychlor. The people experimenting are going with the dosages that Jim Humble has suggested, and it is certainly far beyond what the Dioxychlor people would recommend. And they can't compete with the cheap prices of MMS out there. I don't remember how long a bottle of Dioxychlor lasted, but it wasn't over about 2 or 3 months, at most, and that was because you took breaks from it. Cost years ago was about $30-$35. A small bottle of MMS will last at least a year at a cost of about $20.

Another `dissolved oxygen' product is Cell Food. I got a 1 ounce bottle but haven't tried it yet. Cost was $26 for a month's supply (but it has added stuff like amino acids).

I don't mean to imply that AIDS is not a tough, serious disease. But the mechanisms of action are a lot different than what most of us are dealing with. Volumes have been written about the complexity of the Lyme bugs, and their ability to evade eradication. Not to mention that awful toxin they produce. That's a tough nut, too. Or maybe we should say it's just a whole different kind of nut!

A note about NatureLover....

As of yesterday, he was feeling pretty good and feels like he is making progress! I really hope he is allowed to return and finish what he started - logging his experiences. Especially since he's the only person I know of doing both abx and the MMS.

We shall see. I hope anyone interested in finding out what happened will write to Jenifer. I won't post a thread about it unless I have to. Those types of threads just draw nasty comments, and we've had our fill of those.

Depending on what happens, we may have to `clean up' this thread so it will make sense. Meaning, that we could edit content from our posts that no longer have any bearing on the discussion. And I can repost NatureLover's experiences if I have to. Ugh. But it can be done.

Well, better go get dressed in case the plumber actually shows up this time.
 

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Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
 
Terry,

The way I see things right now, I have only begun to fight these little buggers. I had used herbal/nutriceuticals for many, many years prior to my Dx.

I self-Txd symptoms using a combo of "Alternative Medicine - the Definitive Guide", "Prescription for Neutritional Healing", "Complete Guide to Vitamins, Minerals & Supplements", "The New Guide to Remedies", internet research and two different Health Food Store "Gurus" (for lack of a better word).

I have adapted & fought back against chemical sensitivities and found different means for cleaning things around my home. I have been through zillions of products for personal care. I found "Haley's Hints" & "Haley's Cleaning Hints" to be helpful resources there.

Essential oils of Lavender, Citrus and Eucalyptus are pretty much the only scents that do not seem to make me feel the need to vomit.

I went to my LLMD armed with a large suitcase containing my stockpile of survival tools, just in case he tried to tell me I couldn't possibly have had Lyme as long as I think "because I don't LOOK sick enough, I'd look much sicker". (I took that one from the ID after I spent 5 hours trying to make myself presentable for my appt.)

I am on ABX right now & have been for over a year. I realize that many people have come to a point where the ABX, for one reason or another, just aren't cutting it anymore. There, but for the Grace of God, go I.

I'm being very lazy right now and only really doing ABX, Probiotics and minimal supplements. I am so freaking tired. I just needed desperately to take a break for a while & let the LLMD worry about me. It's so nice to have a shoulder to lean on.

As I am presently on IV ABX, my conservative LLMD's absolute last ABX resort, I may need to regroup & get back in the alternative game at any time. I really don't know where I am headed.

I REALLY, TRULY appreciate those who are trying other avenues sharing their information with me. I look at each potential new treatment being considered by someone here as something I may want/need to consider someday myself.

I try to give the same consideration I would give if I were thinking about doing it myself because I don't know what my future holds.

I see those who share their thoughts and experience in trying alternatives as people who are taking risks so I won't have to take the risk myself someday. As such, I'd like them to have the benefit of whatever research I might do to try to protect myself.

I think we all have a more vested interest in "first doing no harm", so to speak. Most of us have already been dealt enough harm either physically or emotionally. Especially those who have done as much ABX as they could handle and are still needing alternative support.

I certainly understand the hypersensitivity to criticism. I go there often myself. I don't appreciate when it gets sent my way when I'm trying to be helpful, but I think I've really only had that happen once and it still hurts. That doesn't mean that I'm going to take out my pain and frustration on everyone else, especially those who have done nothing to hurt me.

We all have our own level of desperation in trying to find what works for us with whatever strength & resources we have. I believe that if we work together and support each other, we can help keep as few of us as possible from being hurt on the road to finding those answers.

If I get to the point that I have to start trailblazing, I hope that others will give me the same support and give me the benefit of their questions and answers in trying to help keep me from hurting myself. I'm still leaning on everyone else right now. (so thanks for the use of your shoulders )

The information that I gain from researching the considerations of others also gives me a better base of knowledge to draw on for my own personal use.

While I like to sometimes rely on the knowledge of those I know, trust and respect, people who have been fighting this battle much longer than I have, I still like to learn and develop my own knowledge.

I say "thank you" to those who are trailblazing and trying new things. I also say PLEASE be careful. I don't want to see any of us hurt any further and I certainly don't want to see anyone taken advantage of. That would break my heart.

If I ever looked at this thread somewhere down the road and saw something posted like "this stuff destroyed my insides" or "it gave me permanent brain damage" and I hadn't managed to find some time to do a little reasearch and offer any cautions I could find, I'd never forgive myself.

I want to good results posted & I pray someone finds an easy answer. I also pray that no one gets hurt, because that is MY biggest fear, being hurt.

The more damage we do to ourselves through trying things we're told will work, alternative OR ABX, the less we are able to mount a good fight.

My personal strengths & weaknesses of body and mind will be different from many here, based on my own level of infection & the duration of my illness.

If I offer information from my own perspective, it is information that I would feel is valuable. It may not be as valuable to someone else whose in a different state of health/illness.

I value greatly the input and perspective of others. It helps me feel better about the choices I make. So I thank all of you who share with me.


Ali

PS-
I'm sorry for rambling in this post. I'm very nervous right now about a glitch in my Tx and I tend to ramble when I am nervous about things.

Also for the sake of saving duplicated efforts, I am posting a link to a thread about "thinking of trying sulfoxime and dioxychlor".

I am trying to research the sulfoxime & dioxychlor and, with the MMS being a stronger version of dioxychlor, any info posted on dioxychlor I would think should apply here as well.

I'm not going to post a link to this thread over there because this thread's been way too confusing for me & I STILL haven't read the whole thing yet.

Who knows - if I wait long enough, I may not have much left to read after all. (Thanks Lou, for weed patrol )
 

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Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
 
Truthfinder,

I hope you'll pass along any relevent info to NatureLover. I hope he continues to feel better.

Your reference to Cellfood made me remember that I have some in my cabinet. I have the Cellfood DNA RNA cell regeneration formula. It's a 1oz spray and cost $40. I think I got it for the ATP?

It has other things in it too - mostly B vitamins, DNA & RNA bases, ATP, Cellfood, Glycine, TMG (?have to look that one up), L-Glutamine, L-Serine, L-Lysine, L-Proline(?), L-Aspartic Acid, -listed as "other ingredients": deionized H2O, potassium sorbate, grapefruit seed extract, glycerine & natural flavoring.

I think I took it once & I don't remember what happened. I know I had taken a few new things at once & it wasn't pretty ( stupid, stupid, stupid!). I never went back & tried it again.

Maybe I will once I look those two things up.
 

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Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
 
TMG (trimethylglycine), also known as anhydrous betaine, is found in a variety of plant and animal sources and is used in the conversion of homocysteine to methionine.

Maintaining normal homocysteine levels is important for the health of the cardiovascular system.

TMG has been shown to help protect the liver and raise S-adenosylmethionine (SAM-e) levels, in animal studies.

This on L-Proline:

L-Proline is an amino acid that is essential for the synthesis of collagen, the most abundant protein in mammals.

Collagen is the main structural protein that constitutes all human connective tissues, including skin, tendons, ligaments, joints, bone and vasculature (veins and arteries).

L-Proline therefore provides building blocks that help to stabilize and strengthen the structural components of the body.


Apparently my distractibility is up too. Sorry for the sidetrack.
 

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Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
Here is a portion of a comment from Jim Humble concerning Dioxychlor(TM) which apparently is the same chemical as MMS but somewhat weaker.

If Dioxychlor is safe enough for infusions, and is the same chemical as MMS, I do not see a whole lot of safety concerns regarding oral use of MMS as long as it is used as directed. That is my opinion.

D Bergy

I want to mention just one of those papers as it is my favorite
research paper. Here is several excerpts from it. I wish I could
show you the entire paper, but it is copyrighted, however, you can buy
the paper from the Bradford Research Institute. The paper is called
"War against Microbes."
It tells about Dioxychlor(TM) a trade marked commercial chemical
consisting of the exact same chemical as MMS. It has been in use for
more than 15 years. These are the excerpts:

"The following is a description of the characterization and mechanism
of action of Dioxychlor(TM), researched and developed by American
Biologies(TM), as relates to its antiviral, antibacterial,
antimycoplasmal and antifungal activities. Dioxychlor(TM) has been in
clinical use for over fifteen years with tens of thousands of
infusions at the Amerian Biologies(TM) Intergrative Hospital and
Medical Center as well as other clinics and hospitals throughout the
world.

To understand fully the action of Dioxychlor on target organisms, it
is necessary to describe in detail the chemical structure of this
oxidant as well as the biochemical structure of substances found in
these target organisms with which Dioxychlor(TM) interacts. These
targets include viruses (the nucleic acides, RNA, DNA), bacteria and
fungi."

Dioxychlor(TM) is available on the Internet for sale and the entire
scientific paper is available as well. The formula although somewhat
weaker than MMS is the exact same chemical. (TM stands for Trade
Mark). Go to Google and search Dioxychlor.
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Well said, AliG.

And please believe that those of us interested in trying MMS want to know the TRUTH about it as much or more than anybody else. We just don't want to see the positive findings or the negative aspects sensationalized - either way is not helpful.

Hmmm..... your Cell Food has a lot more stuff in it than mine does....

Thanks for the info, D Bergy. I was going to post that this was used at the American Biologies Integrative Hospital, but you beat me to it.

And now a treat for all of you..... an update from NatureLover! I'll put that in a separate post.
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
(I'm going to leave this post blank - I may need the space to re-create NatureLover's earlier updates.)
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
UPDATE From NATURELOVER 11-20-07:

If you'd like, you can let AliG know that there's no need for anyone to "pass on the relevant information" to me because I can still see the thread. In any case, I do appreciate AliG's concern but I can't think of anything that anybody could say really at this point that would get me to stop taking it. I don't want to go back to the way I felt before, even if the way I feel now is representative of a clinically unhealthier state - which I don't see how it could be.

At this point I've been on the MMS 12 days and I just can't think of anything I could see in writing that would rival what I am feeling. I am just feeling so much better in nearly every category; more than 50% improved in my more annoying categories - like my feet and my anxiety/paranoia, and I haven't really run into any downswings in my "cycles" as I call them - the rollercoaster up and down that I was having before with my symptoms.

I definitely still have symptoms but they are all being lessened and except for one day when I didn't really take care of myself and didn't get much sleep I haven't lost any significant ground since I've been on the MMS. And I still have a lot of ramping up to do to get to the 2 or 3 15 drop doses a day that are recommended all over the place.

Currently I'm still taking 12 drops once a day. I should probably be breaking those up into at least 2 doses, but it just tastes so gross that it takes a lot of convincing myself to take even just one dose...then afterwards I always think "oh that wasn't so bad," but the smell has become familiar and has started to make me queasy before I drink it. Interesting since I've still never felt nauseas or queasy after taking the dose.

I still lose a little more hair in the shower than usual, but the drain is not clogged after one shower anymore. Last night I did wake up sweating mildly a few times, and I'm not sure if that is a result of Babs or Bart or perhaps I was just too hot - I did remove my heavier down comforter at one point and woke up a few hours later to put it back on again because I was chilly.

My feet are still somewhat red/discolored (as they have been since mid-August), but I was getting like these ulcers on the bottom of my feet and the bottoms of my toes felt like the entire part that touched the ground was a giant blister for a few weeks previous to my starting the MMS.

The ulcers are completely gone, but there is still a mark from one, a sore that my doctor called a sign of endocarditis a few weeks ago - but that sore does not hurt anymore, and I had another one in my mouth on my gumline which is totally gone now. A few spots on my feet are still occasionally sensitive but it is no thing compared to what felt like total rope-burn over the entirety of the bottom of my foot before.

I must say also that I am still taking 200mg of Doxy twice a day and have been for about a month and a half and I have about a month left of that treatment. I'm also on Malarone, one 250/100 pill a day that I've been on for as long as I've been on the Doxy and I have never thought that it has ever done much but I will keep taking it since I spent 400 bucks on a two months supply.

I am also taking herbs, right now primarily Hawthorn, Spirulina and Chlorella, as well as occasional Cat's Claw and the occasional whatever else. I'm becoming somewhat of an amateur herbalist, but what I mentioned by name are the only things I'm taking regularly.

Anyway, the Hawthorn could be at least partially responsible for the disappearance/ lessoning of my endocarditis symptoms, as it is supposed to be the best cardiac herb there is because it is (according to Stephen Buhner) the only herb or drug which slows the heart and makes the beats more powerful - in other words it makes the heart more efficient. All other cardiac herbs and drugs make the heart beat faster, more often; they're stimulants and therefore can wear your heart out over time. Apparently Hawthorn makes your heart stronger and stronger for the longer you take it and so I wouldn't be surprised if it is what's getting rid of my endocarditis symptoms.

The Spirulina and Chlorella are basically for immune fortification and the binding of endotoxins, as well as for keeping my system cleared out - they're great at taking out all the trash before anything can get clogged up - and even after stuff already has been clogged, like we saw with my lymph node problem about a week ago, which is now totally resolved as if it never happened.

Anyway, yes I am taking plenty of other stuff besides the MMS and I am trying to make sure that I eat right and get enough sleep. I'm a writer so I pretty much work from home on my computer and that's a great plus for me because it means I don't have to stress myself out over a 9-5 job; which would probably have killed me a long time ago.....

.....anyway, I just want to make sure everybody knows that it could be entirely a coincidence that all of this improvement has just happened to coincide with the last 12 days since taking the MMS since I am trying to do everything else right, and I am taking other things - but I would also point out that at this point it would be nearly impossible for anyone to convince me to stop taking the MMS for any reason. I plan to take it until I have been symptom free for two months, like many do with antibiotics. Then I'll keep a bottle around just in case.

Sorry this has been so long, I didn't realize I was going to be doing an update until I was halfway done haha. Oh well, I guess I get excited talking and thinking about my condition. Feel free to post any of this for those on LN if you'd like.

Take Care, Send all the LN'ers my best!
NatureLover
 

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Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
 
I'm so glad that NatureLover is feeling better.

Since I haven't seen any of NatureLovers postings, may I ask how long he's been sick that he doesn't feel that any of his improvements may be attributed to the Doxy & Malarone?

I definitely felt major improvements when I took Zithro & Mepron initially for Babs, and I think it was around the same time frame in Tx.




I'm editing this to add a thought. I didn't want to get this whole thing started all over again, but I made an observation that I think we may learn a lesson from.

I think the reason this thread may have become so inflammatory could have had to do with the choice of Topic title. IMO "Is it Hooey" was asking for MMS to be discredited.

Perhaps "What does anyone think about MMS?" might have gotten more thoughtful input from both sides, siting reasons for opinions.

It might be helpful, in the future, to consider the kind of responses you want when you title the thread. If you genuinely want pros AND cons, try to ask for them.

Just posting to ask for negatives could prove to be hurtful or insulting to someone who has already taken an independant interest in something.

[ 23. November 2007, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: AliG ]
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Ali, hopefully NL will answer your questions - I haven't heard from him for awhile. I don't remember exactly how long he has been sick, but not very long as I recall.

Like NL said, he didn't see much improvement until he started adding the MMS, but there's always the possibility that it could be some kind of coincidence......

One other comment - I agree with NL about the Hawthorn. This is an amazing `herb', although I hesitate to use that term because it is actually ONLY the Hawthorn berries that were used for treatment historically. In this country, however, if you buy Hawthorn, you usually get an extract/ tincture made from the berries, flowers and leaves. There are also different varieties, and the most beneficial appears to be Crataegus-oxycantha.

Hawthorn is a true heart `tonic' - it simply strengthens the heart action. It can lower high blood pressure, but if you don't have high blood pressure, it won't cause it to drop. That's not the way it works.

I've been using it off and on for several months - when my heart issues (palpitations, fainting spells) go away, I forget to take it! I tend to have low blood pressure, and if anything, my blood pressure is often more normal now than it ever was. My instructions (not those on the bottle) were to take 5 drops in a bit of water twice a day. Most people just don't need more than that, unless perhaps you have very watered-down product. Very economical, and very helpful to me.

In the update department......

As of about a week ago, the word is that Joyce (Healing in Santa Cruz) was not doing very well. Joyce has Lyme and was taking the MMS and improving.) Here's what NL reported:

``.....apparently they have been spraying Santa Cruz with some kind of pesticides or something and she has chemical sensitivities........ Also, the last I heard she was not taking the MMS anymore because she was suffering quite a bit from the spraying, but she was considering starting it up again anyway after talking with her doctor.''

I really hope this didn't set her back too far. She was pretty excited about her improvement. I think she is still without a computer, too, so hopefully she will get back online and update us herself one of these days.

There is now an MMS forum over at CureZone. On page 3 of the discussion, one of the posters has gathered together some of the `testimonials/ experiences' posted there and elsewhere..... scroll down the page..... I think the topic starts off with something about ``breast cancer''. Curezone is a bit strange to navigate, and you have a choice of 2 different views of the comments. Anyway, here is the link if anyone wants to check it out. (Note that with CureZone, a link will take you to the same page in the discussions every time, so you have to update your link or click on the next page when a new one is created. Odd, but that's what I've found.)

http://curezone.com/forums/f.asp?f=871&p=4
 

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Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
I really hate the format of CureZone. But, I guess I will take a look. Thanks for the link.

I have started using MMS for four days. Ten drops as a maintenance dose. It also seems to have shortened a nasty strain of cold I caught.

I started getting a sore throat Saturday night after my first dose. Gone completely by Tuesday night with very slight symptoms in between. It appears to work on viruses as well.

My father and mother have had a cold for over a month. My mother caught pneumonia during the cold and is taking antibiotics. My coworkers have also had this, and it lasts for a couple of weeks at least.

I also used Citric Acid for the first time as an activator. I thought the vinegar mix tasted bad. This mix is barely tolerable. I may have to start mixing it with juice instead of water.

My wife has also started back up. She started at two drops and has increased back to three and is also using the Citric Acid activator.

Her herxes have lessened since the last time. She had to stop last time because it was so bad. I think she may be able to take four drops tonight.

I just hope this is not just making the Lyme dormant like the Samento and Cumanda did. I am trying to figure out if it is killing Cyst form or just Spirochete. Hard to know for sure.

The herx is different than any other she has had. It is almost all Joint and nerve based and worst in the spine. I hope it is because that is where the Cysts are.

I am going under the following Hypothesis to try to figure this out.

If she can ramp up to fifteen drops and stay there without any reaction for a three weeks, we will discontinue treatment and assume the Lyme is eliminated. If it does not come back after several months, I think we can say it killed the Cyst form. She has never gone longer than about a month without symptoms. Usually joint pain.

Even if it comes back after several months, I think we can assume it killed most of the Cysts, but not all of them. Then it is a matter of treating long enough, I hope.

If it comes back within a couple of months, I will have to believe it is because it is not killing the Cyst form.

We will find out more as we go.

Best Regards

D Bergy
 

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Posted by hiker53 (Member # 6046) on :
 
Several people on other forums who are using MMS have said that they herx but do not have nausea or diarrhea for several weeks and then whammo the diarrhea hits them. They are theorizing 2 things--one is that the MMS is killing the lyme and producing so many toxins that the diarrhea is eliminating and two that the MMS is killing some of the cysts or L form and allowing the spirochetes out and then they feel worse. These are just theories, but worth thinking about.

Hiker53
 

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Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
For me the diarrhea did not start until I took around seven or eight drops. Maybe it just takes a certain dose to kill any amount of intestinal bacteria. It would be helpful to know how much the others were taking at the time the diarrhea started.

After a while, it does not matter how much you take, it just does not produce this reaction anymore. That is with a person that does not have Lyme.

It could be different with this disease.

Thank you for the information. There is a lack of it concerning Chlorine Dioxide and Lyme disease.

D Bergy
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
D Bergy, I hate the CureZone format, too, but believe me, it beats the heck out of the Yahoo group stuff which I've been trying to follow for weeks now.

I suspect I would have a very similar reaction to your wife's pain - spine, joints, and nerves. Sounds awful, but I do need to know what to expect.

I've also heard the same comments about the taste of the citric acid..... people are using all kinds of things now to mask the taste - everything from fresh vegetable juices to prune juice, etc. I guess the prune juice masks the flavor pretty well (but it might contribute to the diarrhea aspect).

Hiker, I've rarely seen what you describe on the other forums where I've been lurking. What I do see, however, are people who think they can ramp up more quickly because they've not had any nausea up to that point, and then it hits them when they go a little faster. Maybe the Lyme factor makes a difference here, as you suggested.

Or, as someone posted this week, they were up to 15 drops once a day, and then decided it would be fine to do 15 drops TWICE a day. (!!!) Wrong! Sometimes it takes a couple of days but they become very ill. It seems that the rule of thumb is that if you decide to take this more than once a day, then divide the original single dose in half and maybe add 1 drop.

Also, lots of people are learning to use the `baking soda' antidote at the first sign that they might be close to the `vomit' threshold, and this has saved many from being sick. And of course backing down slightly on the dose for a couple of days is part of that process, too.

I've gathered up some notes from the MDI Yahoo group. I'm trying to figure out how to paraphrase them so that I don't step on any toes out there by telling someone's story without permission.

I know it is difficult for people reading this thread to go sort through posts on other sites, so I'll see what I can come up with that perhaps won't encroach on anyone's liberties. There are a lot of stories that are being cross-posted by 2nd parties in more than one forum, and since most of these are public forums, that is probably okay. I just don't want to offend anybody.
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Excerpts from posts regarding MMS and Lyme Disease on the MDI Yahoo Group:
(Note: Anyone can join this group and review these original posts themselves.)

[From someone with Lyme after 7 weeks of using MMS]:

quote:

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.... I had 3 tiny painful sores on my tongue for about two years now, nothing I nor my doctor did helped... very painful.... When I started MMS, I decided I would take a sip and hold it in my mouth for a minute or so before swallowing.. .. I no longer have any sores on my tongue, the pain is completely gone ... The only change in my treatment protocol was the addition of MMS....

....I was dealing with the worst fatigue and brain fog for the past 6 months. Seven weeks of MMS and now my fatigue and brain fog are much better ...... I've been spending some time working out in my yard, something I haven't done in the past 6 months...

I definitely feel there is a benefit for anyone with Lyme disease using MMS ... I am under the care of a few doctors at the Mayo Clinic and just yesterday I had a physical exam of my thyroid, all was normal... I will test for TSH, T4 and T3 at the end of the month.....

I am pleased so far with the results of MMS.... I am using salt/c, rife and MMS and feel each protocol is contributing collectively to my present positive results... I use more than one protocol as I feel the battle with Lyme disease is better served with a multi killing approach....

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I have been using MMS and Rife Treatment on a friend of mine with Lyme disease. On her first lyme test she scored the second highest levels that the lab had ever seen. Her last test shows her levels to be normal with only the co infections showing up. Those were at a low level also.

MMS and Rife treatments seem to be getting her lyme to die off! The results so far a promising!

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I read a Q& A with Humble and he said he had success with Lyme but they needed to supplement with some new special formulation of probiotic invented by a person he gave the # but I did not write it down.....

...... "I have worked with a couple of ladies who have lyme disease and are now feeling better. They really didn't begin to feel better until they began taking a new product called Paradophillus. They feel that it allows the MMS to penetrate much deeper into the body. You might talk to the inventor. His name is Jeff Maehr and phone is 970 731-9724."

I'm going to start with the Paradophilus and use that for a few months first. From what I read and understand, the Paradophilus (which Jim [Humble] recommends using in conjunction with the MMS), is supposed to do a lot of what the MMS does, but with less nausea/diarrhea (though you still can get it)........ The stuff is expensive. I hope it does what everyone is raving about. A lot of other message boards on the net are raving about this stuff.

Paradophilus should be taken on an empty stomach, 15 minutes before meals or 2 hours after. It contains some probiotics of its own; so, I assume it is quite friendly to good bacteria.

http://www.purehealthsystems.com/paradophilus.html

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....Jim Humble advises going very slowly with Lyme and perhaps using multiple small doses [obviously, starting with 1 drop or less]....... A few of us on www.planetthrive. com are also discussing our experiences of trying it for Lyme should you want to have a look......Jim H said that 2 women with Lyme began to show more improvement after adding the probiotic Paradophilus to their treatment plan, alongside the MMS......

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I thought the above information might be of interest, especially since some people are using other treatments along with the MMS, and the fact that more and more people are talking about and starting to use the Paradophilus.

Since this is a Lyme website, I won't post actual excerpts from other stories. But I would like to comment that there are a few first-hand reports of ailments being greatly helped by MMS like life-long asthma, long-standing bronchitis, Fibromyalgia, Hepatitis C, and a few `ailments' of unknown origin. There was even a report of a very ill $7,000 stud dog constantly on abx, losing great patches of hair, had kidney stones, prostate problems, inability to mate, been seen by several vets, the owner was ready to put the dog down..... after 6 weeks of MMS, the dog has most of his hair back and is running around like a normal dog.

All I can say is that while it is still too early to draw any definite conclusions, the MMS does appear to warrant some attention. And when it comes to using it for animals, I think we can rule out the placebo effect.
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
D Bergy, I found an article posted by a vet on another MMS forum about feeding sodium CHLORATE to livestock to kill E. coli and salmonella. Granted, it isn't about sodium chlorite, so not sure how relevant it might be:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3741/is_3_49/ai_72613113

Also, I've seen two other posts from Lymies using MMS that also complained of spine pain, similar to what your wife experiences.

I've heard from NatureLover, so I'll post some updates soon (hopefully, today).
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
UPDATE FROM NATURELOVER 12/4/07

I am doing really well, actually! I stopped antibiotics almost 2 weeks ago and have just been doing MMS, acidophilus, hawthorn, spirulina and chlorella. I am doing really, really well.

I am really excited though, I am making a lot of progress, pretty rapidly. I did have a minor setback at first when I stopped the antibiotics but I was able to get that under control pretty quickly. My feet are in the best shape they've been in for a month or two!

I really have a lot of hope surrounding this MMS; it is the most effective thing I've taken. My endocarditis symptoms are still nonexistent. My feet are doing really well and I just feel better in general. I still do have symptoms but it seems like they are becoming more manageable and less incapacitating.

I am up to a 15-drop dose twice a day, which apparently most Lymies can't handle. I find that I do get nausea when I take a 15-drop dose on an empty stomach.

NatureLover
 

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Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
Thanks for the info Truthfinder.

The Chlorine Dioxide is becoming tolerable to my wife after a rough start. Her spine pain and other joint pain is receding even though she has increased to five drops. She will increase to six tonight.

I mixed some with Citric Acid and tap water. This does not appear to work as well for some reason. I am going to try it with distilled water. Possibly our city water is too alkaline and is neutralizing the Citric Acid. From all the info I have read, the Citric Acid should work better as an activator. We cannot confirm that at this time as our experience is the opposite.

I am not sure if the reduction in symptoms is because of Lyme dormancy, or reduction in all forms of Lyme. It will take a longer time to know the answer to this question.

I look forward to the report from NatureLover.

Thank you.

D Bergy
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Addendum FROM NATURELOVER 12/5/07
[Info on Joyce and answering AliG's questions]

Joyce [Healing in Santa Cruz] is still without a computer, she had stopped taking the MMS for a bit when they did some spraying of something in the area where she lives. She has chemical sensitivity so that was really rough for her, but then within a week or two she was back up to 15 drops 2X a day again and she is doing better now. I think she had one adverse reaction and she stuck it out for 10 hours or so and then finally couldn't take it anymore and took Vitamin C, which Humble recommends in case one can't handle the MMS. She said she was fine after that.

[Regarding Ali's questions] I have been unignorably ill since mid-August when I found myself in the Emergency Room with disseminated rashes all over my body; a few of them bullseyes - and a left foot that looked so crazy my PCP thought I had renal failure or diabetes, and she refused to treat me because she wanted my foot looked at in the ER.

I had been on antibiotics from mid-August until about 2 weeks ago. I do remember getting a rash before then and I was sick though I didn't put the pieces together since before mid-August. I would say I was actually bitten anywhere from May to late July.

I did have a little set-back about a week after I stopped taking the antibiotics in which it looked like I was losing ground, but I didn't lose ground to where I had been before I started taking the MMS, and I think that I was more frightened than anything else. I have been taking the MMS all the way through and I am continuing to improve.

It is slow but finally my range of symptoms has stopped expanding - whenever I thought I was improving with the antibiotics (except during the initial 3 weeks) it always seemed like my individual symptoms were getting milder but that there were getting to be more of them. Now it seems like the symptoms I do have are getting milder or slowly disappearing one by one and I have not noticed any new symptoms.

I do not think that my improvement is totally separated from the pharmaceuticals I took; I think just the opposite. For several months I would have been unable to cope with life in the absence of antibiotics, and I think the antibiotics I was on did significantly reduce the rate at which I was degenerating. I am not saying they didn't help; they definitely did. I have no intention of saying that the MMS has done what it has done for me on its own. I can't even definitively say it was the MMS, of course, but to me the coincidences just seem unignorable.

I won't be writing anything in any peer-reviewed scientific journals (for among other reasons, I'm not a Dr. or a Scientist). The evidence I have that MMS has been beneficial to me is almost certainly not enough to convince anyone in the mainstream or any official sources; but the evidence is good enough for me, and good enough that I will tell people that MMS is PROBABLY beneficial for Lymies - at least in the short term.

I have seen somebody say "well, I would hate to see a post from you someday that said 'mms gave me permanent brain damage,' or 'mms liquefied my internal organs' or something like that. Well, I'd hate to see a post like that too. I don't know much about Cl02, but I do know that it's not natural and probably not the best thing to be consuming for long periods of time (or maybe at all).

But I would point out that 1) neither are antibiotics and 2) when I was making the decision to try this it was the LYME that was in the process of giving me permanent brain damage, and liquefying my internal organs. At least with MMS, if I see adverse effects I can stop taking it at any time and therefore stop it from doing more damage - with the Lyme I don't have that option; as long as the Lyme lives it will increasingly do more damage.

If I knew that MMS DID give people permanent brain damage and that it DID liquefy people's internal organs but that it would kill the Lyme for good - I would take it anyway until the Lyme was dead so that my real problem would be solved.

The problem with Lyme - as I see it - is not that the assaults my body endures on any given day are particularly devastating; my body has overcome some remarkable injuries that it has sustained from the Lyme. The problem for me is that the Lyme is alive and it keeps assaulting my body over and over again, and since that's the case and I can't seem to kill it with any of the conventional methods that I've tried, I have no problem trying something else that's cheap (free actually for a sample bottle - a several month supply - if you go to the source Humble recommends in book 1) and reportedly effective.

When coincidentally or not I start healing like I haven't healed since the first 3 weeks on antibiotics, I am excited to tell others who are still suffering about my experiences.

I will end this now but I am really excited, and hope everything is going really well for you!

NatureLover
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
[I asked NatureLover about the taste of the MMS when taking the 15 drops, and I also asked what his current `mixture' was.]

NATURELOVER'S RESPONSE 12/5/07

Agreed, 15 drops tastes pretty lousy. My current mixture is 15 drops of the MMS (distilled water and 28% sodium chlorite, according to the bottle), 75 drops of 10% citric acid solution (I made that myself by mixing citric acid crystals from the health food store with 9 times as much water). I then wait at least three minutes for the mixture to turn itself into Cl02 and then add as little juice as absolutely necessary for me to tolerate the taste.

I find I cannot take it without the juice, it's just too disgusting. I use any juice that doesn't have added vitamin C or High Fructose Corn Syrup. Right now I'm using Nature's Promise Pomegranate Juice and it is the best taste-masker I've had so far; Apple juice was not as good, but still far better than the MMS on its own. I think the slight sourness of the pomegranate juice helps distract from the taste of the MMS.

Also, I have noticed that for the higher doses of MMS, like 12-15 drops it is better for me to take the morning dose after I have eaten something. I can handle it on an empty stomach but it can definitely cause nausea. I can't handle it if I take a high dose on an empty stomach and THEN eat something.

I vomited on Thanksgiving from that, which was needless to say quite embarrassing. I have only had one episode of vomiting (the one on Thanksgiving) and one episode of diarrhea (which I will find my notes and send them your way).

Happy healings,
NatureLover
 

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Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
My wife is up to 9 drops and her reactions are now very slight to the treatment.

In the beginning she stopped taking it for a while at three drops because almost all her joints hurt so badly. She described her spinal pain as feeling as if her back was breaking.

Now she only has slight pain in her thumb joints. I am speculating that the MMS has done its job in the main part of the body either eliminating or greatly reducing the Lyme bacteria. Now it is getting to the peripheral areas.

She has not yet had the Diarrhea that almost always happens at some point. If she has it at the same point I did, it should be coming at about ten to eleven drops.

I can only hope that it is killing the cyst form and not driving the Lyme into dormancy. It will be a period of months before I will know the answer to that. But, so far so good. She has more energy than I do and feels well at this time.

I am no longer taking MMS myself as I am now on Low Dose Naltrexone for my Crohn's Disease.

That is all for now.

D Bergy
 

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Posted by Cobweb (Member # 10053) on :
 
"I am doing really well, actually! I stopped antibiotics almost 2 weeks ago and have just been doing MMS, acidophilus, hawthorn, spirulina and chlorella. I am doing really, really well. "
NatureLover


I am doing really really well, too-and I don't take MMS. I am still on antibiotics-high doses-no herxing-just feeling better and better everyday.

I also get a new pillow every 6 months-seriously-we subject ourselves to untold amounts of mold and bacteria whenever we lay our heads down on the breeding ground of an old pillow-even if we do change the pillow case every week.


To each his own,
Cobby
 

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Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
I am glad you both are doing well. It is always nice to hear some positive news on Lyme treatments, whatever method used.

What antibiotics are you using Cobby?

D Bergy

[ 13. December 2007, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: D Bergy ]
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Cobby, that is really terrific news!

And as you said, "to each his own".....

You know, somewhere in my reading on MMS lately, someone stated that treatment for Lyme takes about a year.....

D Bergy, did you see that somewhere, too?
 

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Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
 
I have heard the year time frame also. I do not know where that figure comes from. I also do not know of anyone who has actually been using it that long either.

I think most any treatment time has to take into account the variables involved with the person who is sick.

If MMS works on all forms of Lyme bacteria, it should take less time than that if your are able to take a full dose. At least that is my guess.

If it does not, then who knows how long, but a year would be a good place to start.

I really do not want her on it for that long.

D Bergy
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
UPDATE FROM NATURELOVER 1/26/08

I'm not doing that well at the moment actually. Not because of the MMS, but because I haven't been very good about taking it for probably the past 2 or 3 weeks and I think the Lyme is reminding me now that it isn't gone yet.

I know I was going to wait until I had been symptomless for 2 months before I stopped taking it but that didn't happen as it just tastes so gross and I felt so good that I made the dumb mistake of pretending I never had Lyme; I stopped taking the MMS strictly and had a few nights of drinking and so forth to ring in the new year.

I'm still doing a thousand times better than I had been before taking the MMS, but I am a little down that some of my milder symptoms which had all virtually disappeared are coming back to me now. I have been getting back into the MMS recently and I hope to begin adhering strictly to two doses of MMS a day again starting tomorrow. I have also restarted doxycycline in the past few days and I think that is contributing to my overall sense of less well-being.

I've also heard that the full moon has an exacerbating effect on Lyme (I'm not sure if I believe that or not) and I have noticed the past few nights that the moon has been pretty close to full. Again, I'm not really sold on that being a factor but I thought I would mention it so others can make up their own minds.

I don't know if the MMS actually kills the Lyme or just drives it into cyst form (probably a little of both I suspect, just like anything else, right?) But the one comforting thing is that as much as I have stopped and restarted the MMS, it has not lost its effectiveness; which is unlike any of the other medications I have used.

I'm so used to having to add things to the regimen when whatever I'm using begins losing its effectiveness. So far, nothing of the sort has happened with the MMS. It seems I follow patterns of wellness that match exactly (delayed one or two days) the patterns of how much MMS I have been taking, and it does seem that the MMS takes away symptoms faster than they return.

Hope you and everyone on Lymenet are healing well.

NatureLover
 

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Posted by robi (Member # 5547) on :
 
Just wanted to add: The ILADS docs I have had consults with are usually not opposed to alternative type treatments. Several even use alternatives themselves and in treating patients. ILADS has never professed, as far as I know, that ABX alone can get you well from Lyme.

I have personally heard (THE) Dr. B, talk about Heavy Metal Detox and he mentions it in his 2005 Guidelines.
 

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