your opinions&experiences appreciated.
Posts: 2675 | From ct, usa | Registered: Jan 2004
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Greatcod
Unregistered
posted
I have an open mind, but my wallet is closed.
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D Bergy
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9984
posted
There is one testimonial on the Yahoo Lyme Rife group on MMS so far. Not a whole lot of info out there yet. The story on MMS has only been on the net for about a month.
D Bergy
Posts: 2924 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
If you try it ramp up slowly or you will puke your guts up. I speak from experience. I think the verdict is still out on whether it is "hooey" or not. Hiker53
-------------------- Hiker53
"God is light. In Him there is no darkness." 1John 1:5 Posts: 10195 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004
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D Bergy
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9984
posted
So other than the puking, did you have any other results, good or bad?
D Bergy
Posts: 2924 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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The day after I puked I felt just fine. Fine meaning I didn't feel worse than my usual lyme self, but I didn't feel better. The author of the e-book suggested people with lyme might have to take it hourly while awake and ramp up slowly. Not a possibility with my teaching job.
Interestingly enough I have not thrown up since I got lyme 4 1/2 years ago until I tried the MMS, so if it was a herx it was one I have neever experience before.
What was also strange was one weekend I tried it over a 48 hour period and ramped up to 10 drops and had no ill effects. The next weekend I only got to 6 drops, before all heck broke loose.
For those who don't know what MMS is, go to www.miraclemineral.org You combine sodium chlorite with vinegar, lemon juice, or citric acid and it release chlorine dioxide which kills germs.
Hiker53
-------------------- Hiker53
"God is light. In Him there is no darkness." 1John 1:5 Posts: 10195 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004
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D Bergy
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9984
posted
Thanks for the update Hiker.
I would urge everyone except the most adventurous of experimenters to hold back on the MMS for now. There is simply very little information at this time to either confirm safety or effectiveness.
Having said that, I am going to try it myself. But I will not be giving it to my wife for her Lyme. Even though there is a couple of reports showing some good initial results. But too few to believe.
If you try this you are taking a leap into the unknown. I am just worried people may be hurt by either a giant herx or some unknown side effect.
Here is a link that explains it in a nutshell. Take it with a grain of salt because who knows who the author is.
D Bergy
Posts: 2924 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Once again, objective discussion about something new in the alternative arena escapes from LymeNet like a bat in the twilight.
To the NNs, why not express your skepticism in terms that seek not to condemn, but to foster discussion that would allow all to enjoy this forum and learn more information?
Maybe Cave is right: If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
That certainly turned out to be true about vaccines and antibiotics. When first put into use, each of these was considered a `miracle' drug. We are now discovering that each of these `miracle' drugs has long-standing consequences. But we continue to use them with the justification that the benefits outweigh the dangers. (Not to mention the fact that orthodox medicine can't come up with anything better.)
Patent laws and the lust for money drive drug companies into `tweaking' all prospective substances into something that nature can no longer recognize. And we really expect that the introduction of stranger and stranger substances into our bodies will bring about balance somehow?
The idea that companies driven by huge personal gain and shareholder profits somehow are the ONLY entities we should trust in the search for treatments and cures is the epitome of foolishness. And since the statistics are out there showing that prescription drugs are the 3rd leading cause of death in the USA, it should be obvious to any clear-thinking person where the real danger lies.
And yet you would call someone `a sucker' who chooses to consider and discuss the healing possibilities of a kitchen-sink remedy made from natural substances (used harmlessly in other applications)? Talk about the kettle calling the pot `black'......
And as Kelmo said in the previous discussion (which I missed somehow): Go ahead and try it. Let us know how it works. If we didn't have risk takers, we wouldn't know, would we?
Gee, so many who post on these threads just love every product to go through extensive trials and studies before being accepted as valid. Who do you think participates in those studies? Are the participants all suckers, too?
Personally, I will have to wait and see on this one..... partly because I have bad Chemistry Karma. I would probably find a way to screw this up. There are few people on the planet like me who can combine seemingly innocuous substances and come up with a mixture with properties resembling that of jet fuel, so for the sake of the surrounding neighborhood, I'll take a back seat, for now.
The information on MMS is still pretty new, and it won't hurt anybody to keep an eye on this one. If there is something to it, I'm sure we will hear more. Probably not at PubMed, though.
Thanks for your helpful comments and efforts, hiker and D Bergy.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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There is yahoo group called MDI news where people are trying MMS and reporting results. Not everyone there has lyme, though. Hiker53
-------------------- Hiker53
"God is light. In Him there is no darkness." 1John 1:5 Posts: 10195 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004
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oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
This looks smells and reads like a scam to me. I notice on a few yahoo groups, people came on just a few weeks ago (new members) and after a few nondescript posts are suddenly posting about this and how it's helping their lyme. I keep my mouth shut but I believe they're scammers. Buyer beware and please don't poison yourself.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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charlie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 25
posted
....Just the name of the stuff says it all...sometimes I think I could sell a box of turds here if I called it the 'magical mystery whoopee cushion cure'.
really, people......
Posts: 2804 | From Texas | Registered: Oct 2000
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oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
I can't, Cave. There are certain groups where I'd be banned, and then I'd lose other valuable information. So I sadly keep my mouth shut. At least I can say it here though.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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Greatcod
Unregistered
posted
I will submit a written personal testimonial on the great effectiveness of "The Turd Protocol" in healing Lyme.
Of course the supplier makes all the difference in providing this quality supplement. Sure, you can buy the cheap stuff at your pharmamcy, but that's because the main ingredient is imported from China.
My source is FecalHealing.com , and the product is called MiraclePoop, which is made in the USA.
It cures just about everything, and the only side effect is that it makes you lie.
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charlie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 25
posted
....It has to come from a turd world country of course...
Posts: 2804 | From Texas | Registered: Oct 2000
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frakktured1
Unregistered
posted
OH Brother....
I saw on PBS something about this water purefier...
However it is just that....I would not suggest putting it into ones body.
Yes, I know...I would rather have something else called...
ANTI-BODY....in my body....no I would'nt want that either...
But then again I did'nt ask for any Tick borne illness in my body either.
And until there is something found to sensibly erradicate this disease totally from my system...
or any HUMANOID....I will continue to take and recommend whatever steps the ILADS group of doctors and scientists recommend.
They HAVE gotten me this far and saved me from death....
I believe I will stay healthy enough until a cure is found, by using the ILADS protocol, and NOTHING ELSE.
Yes I have tried other junk out there...unfortunately most of it is just that....junk...
Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Good grief.
Thanks for the d�j� vu trip back to the grade school `discussion' tactics.
D Bergy and hiker, I hope you feel comfortable posting your results here at LymeNet. If either of you believe that you are being intimidated, undermined, harassed, or otherwise prevented from enjoying and using the LymeNet forum because of the actions of other members, I encourage you to contact Jenifer Stolow, the acting Moderator of this forum.
No member should be afraid to post their ideas and experiences here for fear of ridicule, scorn, or mockery. That inhibits use or enjoyment of the LymeNet system, which is against forum rules. It's up to all of use to keep LymeNet discussions honest and open to all who are interested in a topic.
quote:I will continue to take and recommend whatever steps the ILADS group of doctors and scientists recommend.
Great! But let's not forget that there wouldn't BE any ILADS `protocol' without brave patients and docs who decided to try something different - something neither approved nor endorsed by the general medical community. In fact, we wouldn't have any antibiotics at all without volunteers willing to put themselves at some risk to gain knowledge.
quote:This IS Lymenet, isn't it? Approved by the LDA? Who, last I looked, promotes ILADS guidance?
Cave, please show me the language over at the LDA where they promote ILADS guidance. If it is there, I am unable to find it.
This is all I could readily find at LDA: "Any information on the site should not be used to take the place of advice from your personal physician or other professional. Any health care information on the website is attributed to the professional(s) who wrote the information and is not necessarily endorsed by the Lyme Disease Association."
The only affiliation between the LDA and LymeNet appears to be a joint effort to raise money for TBD research, as near as I can tell.
Fortunately for all of us, LymeNet is an independent, non-profit corporation, and not controlled by any other private, professional, or governmental organization.
ILADS or LDA are not mentioned in any LymeNet policies. The only thing you will find is the necessary disclaimer language in order to legally indemnify LymeNet in the event people choose to pursue their own course of treatment/diagnosis.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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D Bergy
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9984
posted
I will post any observations I have regarding the MMS product. I do not have Lyme, but do have Crohn's disease. If it does anything negative or positive to my intestinal tract, I should be able to tell easily enough.
I am not bothered by opinions on this or any other unknown treatment. Opinions and facts are two different animals. In a void of facts, opinions can easily be formed on any point of view.
I look for the motivations behind the product. I just do not see any anyone getting rich off of this product. On that basis alone, I think it is worth a look.
I also have my doubts about the product, but will give it a shot. I will be out $15.00 and I need to know for myself what if anything it does.
I am kind of used to puking anyway. Another exciting benefit of Crohn's.
Best Regards
D Bergy
Posts: 2924 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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I checked out this website, and it is the most offensive scamming presentation I have seen in over one year of lyme treatment.
Please do not misinterpret me. I love and respect fellow lyme patients, and this is not scorn or mockery towards anyone who would try any treatment of any kind. I have tried things in the last year that previously I would not have believed. Any lymenetter that tries anything has my best wishes and deep concern.
No, my scorn and mockery is reserved for the folks who created this unbelievable "miracle mineral" website and are trying to profit off the suffering of others.
The folks who created this "miracle mineral" website know better. Gee, it cures AIDS in 3 days! How amazing that the entire global public health community, media, governments, and pharmaceutical companies have missed this miracle mineral!
Wow, and I guess it is good that they tested it in scientific "clinical trials" on prisoners in Malawi. Let's see what Amnesty International says about prison in Malawi:
Human Rights Concerns
In Malawi, reports of excessive police force against protesters have been common, as is the abuse of suspects in police custody. These forces act with impunity, and protestor and detainee deaths go largely unpunished.
The news media is often partisan, favoring one party with more airtime and exposure. Several presidential decrees have violated constitutional freedoms and have been overruled by the court; however, Amnesty International is concerned that constitutional freedoms may be compromised in Malawi.
More than 180 prisoners died in 2004 in Malawi, out of a prison population of 9,000. This large percentage is a cause of great concern for Amnesty International and other human rights organizations. The deaths were due largely to HIV, poor diet, overcrowding, unsanitary conditions, and medical neglect.
***
Guys, the prisoners in Malawi are lucky if they have blankets and food. If some "clinical trial" is forcing them ("voluntarily", I guess) to ingest sodium hypochlorite (ie., BLEACH), or sodium chlorite, an industrial chemical used in paper bleaching, then it may have well led to some of these prisoner deaths that Amnesty International is concerned about.
Please. If this could cure malaria in 4 hours, or AIDS in 3 days, as claimed, we would be hearing about it from other sources than this highly unsubstantiated website.
And oh, it is "the only thing that cures abcessed teeth"! Oh good, no need for dentists anymore, we have miracle mineral!
Rarely have I seen any "miracle cure" this offensive. If they have any data, they should share it with the world.
Again, I understand and respect any lyme patient trying anything. Thanks to the IDSA, we have too few options.
But, the information on that website is blatently and offensively false.
Posts: 2557 | From home | Registered: Aug 2006
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Hi, Wallace - at least you were willing to give the seawater thing a try. I bumped up that old thread where you talked about the seawater..... I realized that there was lots of discussion on that thread that might be helpful to others new to the board.
D Bergy.... thanks for trying this. Sorry to hear about the barfing aspect of Crohn's. Don't you supposed there is some way to avoid being sick on this protocol..... by staying at a low dose of the ClO2 until you are sure you can handle another drop, for instance? I am NOT into puking, personally. Literally, my back problems don't tolerate that.
I understand, Vermont L. You have your concerns and stated the reasons for them. You (well except for your last sentence) and Oxygenbabe have done that.. I have many reservations about the claims and the product myself.
I don't consider it abuse regarding the studies at the prison in Malawi, but that's another can of worms altogether. We really don't have any direct information about that.
But not one of us has any facts proving that any of these claims are false - yet. We will have to let the scenario play itself out. Whether the product or claims are valid is not that important to me; what IS important here is the freedom to discuss the topic with some degree of decorum, and refraining from making unsubstantiated statements that something is false. That's just as bad as the website you may be criticizing! I believe that is referred to as hypocrisy.
Fact or fiction, we need to be able to discuss topics of this nature like adults.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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frakktured1
Unregistered
posted
I heartily agree....
that is like intelligent adults....
Not the kind that would make statements like "no evidence one way or the other makes it worth a try"....
The proponents for this farce are the same who have shown their willingness for anyone to try ANYTHING>..yet they do not!
Arguing for free speach or discussion is all well and good. However,with free speach and discussion comes
responsability. The inteligence to pick subjects worth the time and energy expended to discuss bonafide remedies for the uninformed
newbies and some oldies alike. Such obvious frauds and scams of this nature should be labeled as such and no more discussion should be allowed by the administrators of this board.
However....as I have said previously on other threads, discussions do bring out the Pro's and Con's. So that anyone can readily identify the serious from the superfluous.
So in that respect the administrators may be acting on behalf of the people who come here seeking beneficial information concerning their disease/s.
posted
I tried to download their Ebook, and all I got was a bunch of dots. Actually, this product maybe an effective treatment for constipation. I was in the Army, and was a water purifaction guy. Any level of chlorine over 5ppm was likely to get people "loose". No Turd!
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MagicAcorn
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8786
posted
I'm just disgusted by the whole fecal matter!
pfft
-------------------- Posts: 1279 | From In hiding | Registered: Feb 2006
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D Bergy
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9984
posted
I should get the MMS next week sometime. I will use it very slowly and carefully, as I do not care to puke, if I can avoid it.
The very first thing I came across when I heard of Rife frequency therapy was Quack Watch. Now according to them, the self appointed watchdog group, this was a scam also. I consider it a good thing that I did not quite believe that a highly intelligent man spent a better part of his life developing a scam device. And in addition to that that, he developed a light microscope in the 30's that has only been rivaled recently. Especially since money was no worry to him.
By not writing it off, I found a very effective Lyme treatment. Not to mention other conditions I have used it for. Also many conditions in which it did not work.
Now we have MMS. It certainly does not have a brilliant man behind it. But, if one is going to invent a story, even I could come up with a better one than is presented. Now maybe it is a complete waste of time and the scam story is just that. But, if I would have tried to scam someone, I would have asked for much more money up front and would not have given sources so you could make it yourself. So, if it is a scam, it has to be one of the most poorly orchestrated scam I have seen.
None of that means it works, but it does not prove it does not either. The only way I will know is to try it for myself. Hopefully it will lead to some more solid evidence one way or another.
D Bergy
Posts: 2924 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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Thanks for your concern about the negativity of others when I post something. It usually doesn't bother me.
I hope those who are negative about sodium chlorite before they have even tried it realize I never have said it worked. I just post my experiences. And since good old ILADS and their recommendations have definitely not worked for me, I will continue to seek alternatives and post my findings despite the silly ridicule. By the way I do believe ILADS is a wonderful organization. Antibiotics just have not worked for me.
"God is light. In Him there is no darkness." 1John 1:5 Posts: 10195 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004
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hardynaka
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8099
posted
Hiker and Dbergy, I'm glad there are some brave people to try things for others, and willing to share info (good or bad).
Rife was scammed before too, and now many lyme sufferers swear by it!
When I started on Buhner's herbs, many people came to show the author's background, laughing of him, talking about his photo etc. Of course, they haven't read his book on lyme. Now many people are on his herbs and swearing by some of them too!!
I'll read about your experiences, please keep posting!!
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Good points, D Bergy, hiker and hardynaka - I agree. There's little to lose by taking a neutral stance on the matter.
It occurs to me that perhaps those who reject the very idea that this can possibly work must be people who have never seen or experienced the healing power of something that `science' says is impossible. That is truly a shame. And as JimBob says, ``Those who say it cannot be done should not interfere with the person doing it.'' (Forgive me, JimBob, if I didn't get the wording exactly right......)
Frak said,
``....However,with free speach and discussion comes responsability.''
Absolutely!! Like taking care not to belittle someone by making snide comments about the validity of the topic of a question they post on a new thread..... like taking care not to label something a `scam' or a `fraud' when you do not know this to be true and it is just your opinion.... etc.
``....The inteligence to pick subjects worth the time and energy expended to discuss bonafide remedies for the uninformed newbies and some oldies alike.''
Fortunately for all of us, what constitutes a ``bonafide remedy'' is not your call. You have neither the right nor the authority to make that decision for anyone else on this board. But of course, you certainly have the right to your own OPINION, which should be stated as such. Otherwise, you are giving false information to the ``uninformed''.
"....Such obvious frauds and scams of this nature should be labeled as such and no more discussion should be allowed by the administrators of this board."
Ah, yes - more misstatements of `facts' not in evidence....... Well, most of us enjoy our freedom here to discuss what WE deem may have importance. Perhaps you would be happier over at http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/EuroLyme/ where topics of this nature would NEVER BE ALLOWED. Doesn't that sound nice?
In another thread, Frak, you said: ``And I would'nt comment on anything I did'nt try first.'' And yet, here you are again, commenting.....
Speaking of ``obvious frauds'', this reminds me that it is my belief that there are people on this board who use one Username, then change their name and pretend to be someone else at a later time. Don't these people have the integrity to just be who they are?
This kind of deceit troubles me much more than a website that has the courage to be honest about their claims, which will eventually prove to be true or false.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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dmc
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5102
posted
wow, I was just asking since some people on a MS alternative board were asking.
I knew you guys are knowledgable and adventurous would and do know more about it than I can.
All your responses are appreciated.
When those who try it post then we can get a better idea of it's worth.
Looking forward to hearing from the gutsy ones.
Thank you all.
Posts: 2675 | From ct, usa | Registered: Jan 2004
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Greatcod
Unregistered
posted
What effect might chlorine dioxide have on my health? Acute health effects : The following acute (short-term) health effects may occur immediately or shortly after exposure to chlorine dioxide: irritate the nose and throat, causing coughing and chest pain; eye irritation with watery eyes and seeing halos around lights; breathing chlorine dioxide can irritate the lungs causing coughing and/or shortness of breath. Higher exposures can cause a build-up of fluid in the lungs (pulmonary oedema), a medical emergency but which might not occur for 24 hours, with severe shortness of breath and possibly death.
Chronic health effects : The following chronic (long-term) health effects can occur at some time after exposure to chlorine dioxide and can last for months or years: irritate the lungs; repeated exposure may cause bronchitis to develop with cough, phlegm, and/or shortness of breath. Permanent lung damage may occur, especially with repeated exposure to the vapours. There is limited evidence that chlorine dioxide may damage the developing foetus.
If something is not liked there should be no mean comments.
Everyone knows the possibility of a scam and should understand consequences concerning safety. A gentle nudge would be nice.
Posts: 290 | From ohio | Registered: Dec 2005
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frakktured1
Unregistered
posted
Quote "there would'nt be any ILADS protocol without brave patients and docs who decided to try something different".
"Something neither approved nor endorsed by the general medical community".
response
Does this mean you finally recognise ILADS and Dr B's protocols as being ALTERNATIVE methods of treatments for TBD's?
I commend you for that.
quote "Once again objective discussion about something new in the alternative arena escapes lymenet like a bat in the twilight".
response
Quite colorful, yet you make no mention of the discussions Cave and others have contributed. They have not escaped my notice yet you single me out.
Why must you turn this into a personal matter? You will not goade me into personal responses by this tactic.
quote concerning antibiotics
"When first put into use, each of these was considered a "miracle drug". "We are now discovering that each of these miracle drugs has long standing consequences".
response from Dr B. and I quote "Nearly two decades of experience in treating thousands of patients with Lyme has proven that therapy as described " in his protocol, "although intense, is generally well tolerated. The most common adverse reaction seen is allergy to probenecid. In addition, yeast superinfections are seen, but these are generally easily recognized and managed...
"Remember years of experience with chronic antibiotic therapy in other conditions, including rheumatic fever, acne, gingivitis, recurrent otitis, recurrent cystitis, COPD, bronchiectasis, and others have not revealed any consistent dire consequences as a result of such medication use. Indeed, the very real consequences of untreated, chronic persistent infection by B. burgdorferi can be far worse than the potential consequences of this treatment".
my response is that I see nothing even close to comparing with Dr B's experiences in treating TBD's. My own ten year experiences are all I comment on...except perhaps when something is so obviously ridiculous. I do so to protect those who are so sick and desperate they can hardly think for themselves.
quote "and we really expect that the introduction of stranger and stranger substances into our bodies will bring about balance somehow?
response
Oh yeah, like swallowing bleach is such a great idea. Puking may give one the idea that the body does'nt want it in their system. Ya think?
quote
"Since statistics are out there that prescription drugs are the 3rd leading cause of death in the USA".
Please produce these so called statistics that are "out there".
Don't you mean abuse of prescription drugs?
quote: in re to those who subject themselves to clinical studies.
"Are the participants all suckers too'?
response No, Desperately sick people, with little hope and money, who are preyed upon and used and abused.
quote
"thanks for the dejavu trip back to the grade school discussion tactics"
response
I believe some of those comments were for levity sake, not discussion. So please don't try to make them something they are not.
But you do seem to ignore other things that have been posted in an attempt at intelligent discussion of this miracle junk.
And now it comes...even though no one but TF has made this discussion anything personal in nature... he/she starts to alert or "Sqeak"! (I'm quoting myself).
quote
"no members should be afraid to post there ideas and experiences for fear of ridicule scorn or mockery".
response
Then TF, why do you riddicule and mock and scorn my posting of procedures I have indeed tried in other posts?
This could only be your attempt to provoke me into some personal argument of which I have told you I have no desire to engage in with you or anyone else on this website.
I have seen evidence of scorn,riddicule and mockery of the suggested "MMS CURE" only.
Nothing personal.
Yet you TF insinuate there has been.
quote
"like taking care not to label something a scam or a fraud when you don't know this to be true and it is just your opinion".
response
previously answered so many times I'm tired of it.
I still do not like nor appreciate your accusations of my honesty.
And so you see TF this is how you and your proponents start to become "PERSONAL" rather then objectively discussing this miracle junk!
I would appreciate your stopping turning this personal or I may do some "SQUEAKING" of my own.
Really great stuff about the poop stuff by the way....
Cavey you are aware of the many alternatives suggested in Dr B's protocol, are you not?
If not I will gladly post them at some future date.... whew....I'm quite fatigued at this point....
I don't know HOW these other sick people stay on here so long and write so much....
It certainly drains me...
FXD OH, by the way...I'm quite done with this topic!
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Greatcod
Unregistered
posted
The topic is "miracle mineral-is it hooey?" A number of us responded positively. Yes, it is hooey. Where is the negativity in that?
IP: Logged |
I mean no disrespect, but how can you call someting "hooey" when you haven't even tried it?
The amount of sodium chlorite taken with the vinegar or citric acid is extremely small and one should ramp up slowly if they try it. Just like some people ramp up on their antibiotics slowly. The MDI yahoo group is reporting their results as people try it, so why don't we wait and see that they find out before saying it is hooey. It does not make bleach!!!
Also I am willing to be that some people on this forum have puked with their antibiotics, too.
Afterall, Alexander Fleming discovered penicillin by accident and think how many lives it saved. Hiker53
The JOURNAL of the AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION (JAMA) Vol 284, No 4, July 26th 2000 article written by Dr Barbara Starfield, MD, MPH, of the Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health, shows that medical errors may be the third leading cause of death in the United States.
The report apparently shows there are 2,000 deaths/year from unnecessary surgery; 7000 deaths/year from medication errors in hospitals; 20,000 deaths/year from other errors in hospitals; 80,000 deaths/year from infections in hospitals; 106,000 deaths/year from non-error, adverse effects of medications - these total up to 225,000 deaths per year in the US from iatrogenic causes which ranks these deaths as the # 3 killer. Iatrogenic is a term used when a patient dies as a direct result of treatments by a physician, whether it is from misdiagnosis of the ailment or from adverse drug reactions used to treat the illness. (drug reactions are the most common cause).
============
I've seen other reports that list the number of deaths by prescriptions as much higher than this. But this is what the AMA is admitting to.
I'm in no way endorsing nor naysaying the MMS or whatever it's called.
Can you guys quit fighting now?
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96239 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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Greatcod
Unregistered
posted
Well, consider this--most town and city water supplies pass through a plant where they are chlorinated..and small amounts of the chlorine gets passed on to consumers. It only makes sense then that everyone with Lyme who lives in those areas would be cured. Really, before that,I arrived at the conclusion, "It the AIDS in three hours", etc. is an absurd claim. I would be very careful in giving this person a credit card number if you buy the second book. I think this all might be an identity theft thing. My own view is that the Alternative medicine should be approached very carefully. its loaded with scams. I would love to be wrong about Mr. Humble.
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Greatcod
Unregistered
posted
Well, consider this--most town and city water supplies pass through a plant where they are chlorinated..and small amounts of the chlorine get passed on to consumers. It only makes sense then that everyone with Lyme who lives in those areas would be cured. Really, before that,I arrived at the conclusion, "It cures AIDS in three hours", etc. is an absurd claim. I would be very careful in giving this person a credit card number if you buy the second book. I think this all might be an identity theft thing. My own view is that the alternative medicine should be approached very carefully. Its loaded with scams. I would love to be wrong about Mr. Humble.
posted
Three days for AIDS--sorry This is from their webpage.
This Breakthrough can save your life, or the life of a loved one. Please read.
The answer to AIDS, hepatitis A,B and C, malaria, herpes, TB, most cancer and many more of mankind's worse diseases has been found. Many diseases are now easily controlled. More that 75,000 disease victims have been included in the field tests in Africa. Scientific clinical trials have been conducted in a prison in the country of Malawi, East Africa.
Separate tests conducted by the Malawi government produced identical 99% cure results. Over 60% of the AIDS victims that were treated in Uganda were well in 3 days, with 98% well within one month. More than 90% of the malaria victims were well in 4 to 8 hours. Dozens of other diseases were successfully treated and can be controlled with this new mineral supplement. It also works with colds, flu, pneumonia, sore throats, warts, mouth sores, and even abscessed teeth (it's the only thing that controls and cures abscessed
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You do not have to pay for the e-books that Mr. Humble writes. You download the first one for free. If you do not want to pay for the second one, but want to download, Mr. Humble will send it to you for free. At least he sent it to me for free when I followed his instructions about it from the first e-book.
I am not trying to convince anyone to try this. I doubt I would use it again for lyme as it seems you have to take it in small doses every waking hour and that is unrealistic for me.
I, will, however, continue to follow the MRI website about it and see how people do on it.
And this is all I have to say on the subject. Hiker
-------------------- Hiker53
"God is light. In Him there is no darkness." 1John 1:5 Posts: 10195 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004
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Greatcod
Unregistered
posted
I read the part about the second book costing $9.95, which isn't much, which is why I thought it might be about credit card use and indenity theft. And maybe this guy is onto the greatest medical brakthrough in the history of the world. Very honestly, I would love for this to be true. Just seems to me, though, that this guy is preying on sick people.
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Frak, the information about drugs and death rates is easily obtainable on the Internet by Googling a few key words. However, in the interest of fostering healthy discussion practices on this board, here is some more information.....
Thanks for posting most of the story, Lymetoo.
Also, I was incorrect; medical errors are the 3rd leading cause of death; adverse drug reactions - due to drug toxicity and NOT to allergic reactions or drug abuse - are the 4th leading cause, not the 3rd. Guess I got those mixed up. I apologize for the error. It's hard to keep all the deaths from conventional medicine straight.
Here's a bit more info.....
....According to information we have received, a statistical study of hospital deaths in the U.S. conducted at the University of Toronto revealed that pharmaceutical drugs kill more people every year than are killed in traffic accidents.
The study is said to show that more than two million American hospitalized patients suffered a serious adverse drug reaction (ADR) within the 12-month period of the study and, of these, over 100,000 died as a result. The researchers found that over 75 per cent of these ADRs were dose-dependent, which suggests they were due to the inherent toxicity of the drugs rather than to allergic reactions .
The data did not include fatal reactions caused by accidental overdoses or errors in administration of the drugs. If these had been included, it is estimated that another 100,000 deaths would be added to the total every year.
The researchers concluded that ADRs are now the fourth leading cause of death in the United States ......
To my knowledge, no one has keeled over and died from colloidal silver, homeopathy, being ART tested, the Blasi protocol, seawater therapies, or many of the other choices out there that are often ridiculed on this board. Even if there are any deaths associated with these protocols, there would have to a large number of recorded deaths to even BEGIN to compete with pharmaceutical drugs in the `danger' department.
Hey, Greatcod - interesting information about the dangers of chlorine dioxide, but it is a bit meaningless without knowing at what concentrations and exposures that information is based on.......
But as Kelmo said, ``Be careful out there, guys and gals.'' I agree. For instance, you can seriously damage yourself just by pouring ammonia and bleach into your toilet all at once. This does not mean you shouldn't use either ammonia or bleach - just follow the directions when using chemicals. That's what directions are for.
Why does the word `bleach' keep coming up? Hey, I've already admitted that I'm no chemist, but my Clorox bleach bottle does not say ``chlorine dioxide''. Does yours? So, could somebody knowledgeable either explain this to me or quit calling it ``bleach''?
Oh, rats, I've got to go - minor personal emergency. Don't have time to address some of the questions you posed in a previous post, Frak. I am more than happy to respond, however..... just can't do it right now.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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Greatcod
Unregistered
posted
Truthfinder --look at my earlier post, copied from his website. It cures AIDS in three days!
On the concentration question, you are right about the lack of information. But also consider that this is a make it at homemade therapy, and that Chlorine Dioxide is a dangerous substance when ingested. I pulled this from EPA website.
" Chlorine Dioxide. Some infants and young children who drink water containing chlorine dioxide in excess of EPA's standard could experience nervous system effects. Similar effects may occur in fetuses of pregnant women who drink water containing chlorine dioxide in excess of EPA's standard. Some people may experience anemia."
It also causes stomach problems and diareha. I know that from my Army experience as a water supply specialist.
As far as the conventional alternative battles, the big problem I have is the total lack of any quantification of results with herbs and such, and the typically overstated claims by the producers. Herbs are far less likely to harm people, but what kind of good results do they really produce? That, and the way people say everybody's different, so we can't possibly know. I suspect the Lymeworld is loaded with people who have treatment failure with herbs, they just don't report it. The alternative folks jump all over ABX treatment failures, but with never a mention of herbal treatment failures.
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frakktured1
Unregistered
posted
Hey there TF
I never believed you were for real the first time I had the displeasure to converse with you and the rest of your friends...
so I'm really not interested in anything you say or think you're quoting...
Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Hey dmc, I'd just like to apologize for some of the turns this thread has taken. I would prefer to talk about the product and treatment itself so that we could all be better informed, but when some prefer to prejudge the matter, then we digress.
Frak, you have addressed me personally in your previous posts, and now you post another message saying you are not interested in anything I have to say.... I understand that. I'm quite sure you are not interested. But, of course, I believe you have made some errors in your assessment, which must be addressed. I am interested in truthfinding, after all.......
Frak, you said:
###``Does this mean you finally recognise ILADS and Dr B's protocols as being ALTERNATIVE methods of treatments for TBD's?''###
I'm not sure Dr. B's protocols would be termed `alternative' in my book, simply because the drugs used are still allopathic meds.... so, this is a good question. What would be a good term for the ILADS-endorsed TBD treatments? I don't have an answer.
###``Quite colorful, yet you make no mention of the discussions Cave and others have contributed. They have not escaped my notice yet you single me out.''###
I did not single you out. I made a general comment on the discussion where several people had posted. Please show me where I singled you out in my post of ``"Once again objective discussion about something new in the alternative arena escapes lymenet like a bat in the twilight".
I said (regarding vaccines and antibiotics), ``We are now discovering that each of these miracle drugs has long standing consequences". Again, this was a general comment. We cannot deny the obvious evidence out there of many often-deadly, antibiotic-resistant organisms, and now we have no way to kill them. Or if there is a new antibiotic that will kill them, few people can afford it. This is a reality. It is not necessarily anyone's fault - it is simply a consequence of using antibiotics.
And don't any of you long-term abx users ever ask yourselves about the possible consequences of being bitten by a healthy tick, which then acquires your own version of Bb, which likely is antibiotic-resistant to some degree? If this tick then bites someone, then what? If that person becomes ill with Lyme, did your long-term antibiotic use just contribute to a case of Lyme Disease in some poor soul that is unresponsive to even the best ILADS-endorsed treatment?
(BTW, I have seen no solid evidence concluding that bacteriostatic abx do not cause resistance, even though many LLMDs BELIEVE this to be the case. I'm sure this is a question that will be answered some day, but I doubt if it will be soon.)
And let's not forget what another ILADS doc said (Dr. J. in NC): ..''learn to practice the humility necessary to appreciate what we don't understand about medicine......'' and ...... ``an appreciation for the search of the profound and undiscovered, is more important than what you may know.....''
BTW, in case there is any confusion, I am not opposed to ILADS, nor do I condemn anyone who follows their protocols. But I support investigation of products and protocols that ILADS would not be interested in. I am an equal-opportunity investigator.
Frak, you said, ``My own ten year experiences are all I comment on...except perhaps when something is so obviously ridiculous. I do so to protect those who are so sick and desperate they can hardly think for themselves.''
Again, it is only your opinion that something is obviously ridiculous. If you wish to protect the sick and defenseless, then by all means state your opinion, list the reasons for it (or none if you don't have any), and be done with it. Or ask the tough questions that you feel need some answers.... that's all well and good, and constitutes what real discussions are all about. Otherwise, these blanket, unsubstantiated comments about products become just so much bloviating.
I, too, wish to help the sick and defenseless by assuring that they receive accurate information, and not a lot of dis-information..... Like suggesting that taking this product is the equivalent of drinking bleach. That is a blatantly untrue. It is disingenuous to claim that your intent is to `protect the sick and desperate' and then proceed to post such misleading information. The `truth' is what these people need to make an informed decision - not fabrications.
###``Oh yeah, like swallowing bleach is such a great idea. Puking may give one the idea that the body does'nt want it in their system. Ya think?''###
You just posted defamatory information about MMS, and that can get you tossed off this board. It is not bleach and I suspect that you are well aware of that. The question of puking has been addressed by other posters here.
###``No, Desperately sick people, with little hope and money, who are preyed upon and used and abused.''###
LOL, Frak, please review my post. The participants I was referring to were the ones that probably had the guts to go through the trials that led to the approval of the very drugs you rely on to get you through the day. Are you sure this is your final answer, LOL?
###``And now it comes...even though no one but TF has made this discussion anything personal in nature...''###
Please point this out to me. I have endorsed or questioned certain posts made by others here..... I do not see that this makes the discussion personal in nature. If I have a question about what someone posts, isn't that the person I should ask about it?
###``Then TF, why do you riddicule and mock and scorn my posting of procedures I have indeed tried in other posts?''### Please show me where I have done that.
I said: ``....like taking care not to label something a scam or a fraud when you don't know this to be true and it is just your opinion". There are several here who do not seem to grasp this basic concept. That is why is must be thrown out on the table over and over again. Once it is understood and followed, you won't have to hear it anymore. Simple.
###``TF this is how you and your proponents start to become "PERSONAL" rather then objectively discussing this miracle junk!''###
Man, I have to tell you, Frak - I almost blew decaf coffee out my nose when I read this one yesterday. Perhaps we should label this statement as ``Exhibit A''. Surely, I do not have to point out your non-objectivity in referring to this as ``miracle junk'', which is another defamatory statement since you stated it as a fact, not your opinion.
Here's the thing, Frak: If anyone initiates the process of mud-slinging - whether it is at another poster or about a treatment or product - they can hardly complain later when some of it comes back on them and they get all muddy. So, it seems logical to me that none of us should be the first one to throw the mud. Tact. Investigation. Diplomacy. Basic courtesy and consideration. These should be the tools of objective discussion.
###``I still do not like nor appreciate your accusations of my honesty.''###
I do not recall doing this. Please show me where I have accused you of being dishonest.
Okay, now BACK ON TOPIC!!! (do I hear some shouts of joy, LOL?)
I saw on one blog this morning that at least one supplier is completely out of the MMS, so apparently the word is spreading and some people are willing to try it. I do hope they follow directions and don't have a major herx just trying to get faster results.
I am toying with the idea of placing an order myself.... as long as the sodium chlorite doesn't have a real short shelf life, I would like to have some of this on hand to try at some point.....
Lyme & Co. is such a tricky complex disease, I don't think anyone should expect rapid results if they are a Lymie. Mr. Humble probably doesn't know too much about Lyme, either, like most people who don't have it. I suspect that, like taking abx, results man be achieved over time, and perhaps it will require an extended period of time. Too soon to know, but these are just things to keep in mind since this is such a new product.
All the best, Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Hi, GC -
The statement you made earlier is false'': ``It cures AIDS in three days!'' You are mis-quoting and exaggerating the claims on the website.
Actually, what the website says is that ``Over 60% of the AIDS victims that were treated in Uganda were well in 3 days, with 98% well within one month.''
This is/was his observation and he is not claiming that it will do the same for everyone. And he does not use the word cure, but ``well'' or ``successfully treated'' of ``controlled''. I have a friend who was recently ``successfully treated'' for lung cancer with chemotherapy. He is out of danger, but the doctors do not claim that he is cured. The cancer is being controlled. And I think that's what happens with most Lyme patients; the Lyme is controlled, but rarely ``cured''.
I know of another `alternative' practitioner who is treating AIDS patients in Africa, and while the symptoms of AIDS in many of these patients disappear relatively quickly, he admits that they are not cured - just free from symptoms. They are still HIV positive, can still pass the virus to others, and still get re-infected.
So, I'm not equating ``well, successfully treated, or controlled'' as the same thing as claiming a cure. This, I believe, is similar to the favorable outcomes of those Lymies who get better from abx. They may not be cured, but they feel well. I take this same approach to all treatments discussed on this board, including abx. And in no way does the website suggest that any kind of restoration to health is possible in all cases.
Be very careful about sensationalizing....
I do not know what the EPA standards are for chlorine dioxide, so this doesn't help me much either. And I have seen plenty of reports from the abx uses of ``nervous system effects, stomach problems, and diarrhea'', so that in itself isn't too alarming. In fact, perhaps it is reassuring: couldn't those symptoms suggest a herx, and isn't that supposed to be a good thing when you are trying to kill bacteria?
``As far as the conventional alternative battles, the big problem I have is the total lack of any quantification of results with herbs and such, and the typically overstated claims by the producers.''
I understand that. We've discussed this before.... and a lot of it boils down to $$$ for any organized research. And I certainly agree that there is some overstated hype about many supplements. But after reading your statement about `curing AIDS in 3 days', I do have to wonder if you aren't reading more into some of these claims than is actually there? I'm not trying to slam you here, but the thought does occur to me.
Of course there are many failures with herbs that we don't hear about!!! But I maintain that part of that problem is our own fault. Lots of herbal and alternative people have left LymeNet because of the intimidation from some posters here, so we never get to hear the results of their personal protocols.
LOL, your observation is that ``alternative folks jump all over ABX treatment failures, but with never a mention of herbal treatment failures'', and my observation is just the opposite.
Thanks again for breaking up (most) of your post - it is appreciated.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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D Bergy
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9984
posted
I have just started my experiment with MMS. I will report back when I am done with the experiment. I have no ill effects so far but I am at a very low dose.
Here is the best info I have found on the possible mechanisms of action of MMS.
D Bergy
Posts: 2924 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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Greatcod
Unregistered
posted
Be very careful about sensationalizing.... Me, sensationalizing?
How about Mr. Humble? "Separate tests conducted by the Malawi government produced identical 99% cure results. Over 60% of the AIDS victims that were treated in Uganda were well in 3 days, with 98% well within one month."
Seriously! Do you think that the doctors and the govenment in Malawi are so stupid that they would not have informed their media,the international media, the UN, and the medical establishments and gay communities of other countries of their stunning success with this treatment.
That some guy gets to introduce it to the world by a crappy website in the Internet.
This is exactly the kind of absurd claim that gives alternative medicine such a bad repuation with mainstream medicine. And that unfortunately makes it much more difficult to convince them of the very real benefits of the traditinal medicines of China and India and other cultures.
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