quote:

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Originally posted by oxygenbabe:
I simply don't understand how medical doctors with no herbal knowledge can just put their patients on herbal formulas whose consequences are unknown, without any knowledge of how they'll interact with abx as well.
I would personally not want such a doctor to treat me.

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quote:

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Originally posted by oxygenbabe:
Goofy, it's not I who give great importance to schooling, it's you.
Didn't you go to an M.D. to treat your lyme?
Why not go to someone without an M.D.?

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quote:

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Originally posted by oxygenbabe:
Goofy, it's not I who give great importance to schooling, it's you.
Didn't you go to an M.D. to treat your lyme?
Why not go to someone without an M.D.?

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This is inaccurate. Your judgment of my reasoning is inaccurate.

Last time I checked, practicing medicine without a license was illegal.

If you get sick again after treatment, that would be the common definition of relapse. I was merely still sick ... and we didn't cut out all babs meds, only some of them.

My MD is primarily a holistic doctor, with years of experience in alternative medicine. He prescribes abx when necessary. He's not as you say, failing with abx, thus prescribing herbs ... and Cowden herbs are only part of the herbs that he uses. I hardly see that as dangerous or careless.

I just got a VERY interesting PM about someone's appointment with Dr. Cowden because this person knew I would be interested. They won't post it on the board because of people like you who attack. No one attacks your use of Buhner herbs, quit attacking us unjustly for using Cowden.

Congratulations, you have been successful at keeping relevant, interesting information from others.
 

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Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
 
You know, I was sitting here thinking, what relevance does my having to go back on babs meds have to do with the Cowden protocol???

The Cowden protocol has kept all the other bugs in check. They didn't have any herbs for babesia at the time I started it two months ago when I got off abx (still on Lariam).

Perhaps if they would have had enula back then, I would not have had to go back on Malarone. But enula wasn't out yet when I started back on Malarone.

So the fact that babesia is the only bug I'm having trouble with on the Cowden protocol shows the protocol is working for me!

Maybe it's not a double blind study, but it works in my case .... and there are people on this board who want to hear that.
 

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Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
 
"Congratulations, you have been successful at keeping relevant, interesting information from others."

How have I done that? Who am I attacking? I do not use Buhner herbs by the way. I don't use them because I don't have an experienced herbalist to oversee my use of these herbs.

My point is that there are many many red flags about the Cowden "protocol". There's no explanation of how Enula is to combat babesia and no animal studies. There is a combination of herbs he derived I know not how and he is saying is for babesia and the doctors are just "prescribing" them at once along with the whole other line of expensive Nutramedix herbs? Is it legal for an M.D., however holistic, to just prescribe herbs? There are experienced herbalists with degrees from extremely reputable institutions like Bastyr for instance, which has received various NIH grants at times to study herbs in clinical trials. I personally would rather such an herbalist consult with my LLMD should I decide to take herbs.

My first red flag about Nutramedix was in their taking cat's claw and calling it Samento. Now we have lots of renamed herbs in tincture form and combinations supposedly to treat lyme. With what foundation?

I raise questions, it is keeping others from useful information? I think not. That's why so many good posters are gone from this board. And if I don't shut up now I'll probably be gone.

I've voiced my concern and there's nothing more I can do than that.
 

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Posted by CherylSue (Member # 13077) on :
 
I thought Dr. H of New York did a study using abx and the Cowden protocol with 170 patients. He found that following up with the Cowden protocol after abx seemed to prevent relapses in his patients. 70% of his patients improved MODERATELY on the Cowden protocol. He didn't say CURE.

Nutramedix products can be purchased from other distributors cheaper than their website and with no shipping charges.

I think the herbs are a good adjunct to abx. I found cumanda very helpful for yeast and eliminating susceptibility to UTI's, if not for Lyme. Doxycyline seemed to help with the brain fog. Now I'm working on the fatigue. Maybe, Enula can help with that. I have it, but haven't started yet.

With the many users on this board using either Cowden or Buhner's herbs and meeting with some kind of improvement, is a good thing. It doesn't matter what you choose, just choose something.

In my opinion,
CherylSue
 

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Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
 
My doctor has alot of experience & he said he thought that the Cowden protocol was effective. There has been at least one study I know of, plus my doctor has consulted with other collegues about it. He said he thought that it may help me more than taking abx. Since I was getting nowhere with the abx, I wanted to try it.

Most herb producing companies don't have the resources that large pharmaceutical companies do. If you think the herbs are expensive now - how much do you think they would cost if everything was extensively tested? Just because drugs are tested, doesn't make them effective, either. There are alot of conflicts of interest in the field of medicine. I guess we could go to Peru & pick the Cat's Claw ourselves & it would be alot cheaper.

I don't agree that you always have to trust a "specialist" & that people who are "trained" know everything. I saw at least 10 doctors who didn't have a clue about Lyme - in a state where we are practically ground zero for Lyme. I had 2 ELISSA tests & a Western Blot & they were all negative according to NY State standards. So much for "trained professionals".

I spent alot of time studying herbs for my own interest. I actually worked in a store which sold culinary & medicinal herbs exclusively about 20 years ago. On reviewing the different herbal protocols, I found that the Cowden herbs were the easiest to use & they have a well thought out protocol.

So what if Cowden charges a few dollars extra? We live in a capitalist country. Do we all complain if CVS charges more than Walmart or Whole Foods charges more than Pathmark? Do you get upset that some people call Tylenol, Acetaminophen? What's the difference? Everyone thought it was safe to use Tylenol until people started getting liver damage from it. It was OKed by the FDA... Sometimes you have to take calculated risks with things.

I agree studies & such are important but if you wait until all the i's are dotted & t's are crossed with herbal therapies - you'll be waiting forever. Drugs are where the money is & they aren't rushing to come out with new drugs for Lyme. We have to take the treatments into our own hands.

BTW - I am taking some pharmaceuticals with the herbs, just not antibiotics.
 

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Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
 
I'm not talking about studies, I'm talking about a trained herbalist who has studied, has a degree, and years of clinical experience along with tradition using the herbs he or she recommends.

And it's not so what if you take common herbs, rename them, or market them as special and make an unecessary amount of profit. There is a difference btw profit and greed and doing things like renaming chamomile or cat's claw, common inexpensive herbs, and making them expensive, raises red flags.

Hope it works for you.
 

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Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
 
Not be arguementative but the actual ingredients are on the labels of the bottles of herbs that are sold by Nutramedix. You can always look for the same ones marketed by another company if you feel you can save money. You can pick & choose which things to use. You don't have to stick with everything on the protocol.

I think companies change the names of their formulas to identify the mixture. Many other herb companies do that, too. Sometimes, they have more than one herb in the formula or it could be a different variety of plant in a particular species. Some companies do that to identify which formulas work for a particular issue such as urinary infections, migraines, etc. They can't really claim it cures a particular illness but they use "suggestive" titles to associate the herb formula with an illness.

Compared to other things - the herbs aren't that expensive. I'd save my anger &/or suspicions to direct at different issues other than the Cowden protocol or Dr. Cowden. I don't think they are "the enemy"...
 

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Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
 
Actually it does make me angry. I think its irresponsible of MDs to willy nilly prescribe this stuff, and I don't see why people assume he's found an herbal treatment for babesia with no proof of any kind.

Best of luck to you.
 

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Posted by mojo (Member # 9309) on :
 
My Dr. has started using Nutramedix a little since the last conference when Cowden gave a big presentation. He also had a nice conversation with the Nutramedix people which was nice.

I am on Samento and definatley noticed looser stools. Not too bad, though, in fact it was more helpful to me.
 

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Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
 
Everyone has a right to their opinion.

There are alot of other aspects of Lyme Disease that make me angrier than what Dr. Cowden does.

Herbal remedies can be very effective.

It makes me more upset that doctors are prescribing antibiotics in a "willy-nilly" fashion.

Compared to pharmaceutical drugs - herbs have had very low casualty rates.

If people got sick & died from herbs as much as they do from drugs - there would be no companies selling herbal preparations.

They would have been all bankrupted by lawsuits.

On the other hand - if they were ineffective, people wouldn't buy them & they would go out of business, as well.

So, despite of what some people thing about scientific testing & under-educated practitioners, the market for these supplements is showing that they must be working.

If people sue pharmaceutical companies from being injured by using drugs that were approved - they can afford it.

The big pharma companies calculate that into their cost structure. They make massive profits.

People dying from their drugs are just an acceptable allowance to these large corporations.

Smaller herb companies don't have that luxury.
 

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Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
 
Two wrongs don't make a right.
 

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Posted by Looking (Member # 13600) on :
 
I'm so happy to have a right to choose my treatment, including herbs, as I realize that in some countries this freedom has already been impacted.

I cannot afford the pharmaceutical companies obscene prices for some drugs. I mean really $800 for some prescription antibiotics??

I have been to many credentialed MD's who misdiagnosed me and prescribed useless drugs so I can't trust in that as any marker of successful treatment.

I wouldn't think to comment on any LLMD's who are mixing herbs into a treatment program as willy nilly unless I had first hand knowledge of the fact that they have not educated themselves about these herbs and their interactions.

Speculating that they are reckless is only an opinion if you have not gathered first hand facts from the source.

There are reams of published facts about the deaths caused by medications and their interactions which far outweigh any such outcomes with herbs.

I am not sure what the purpose of this discussion really is? I do believe we have to be cautious with all treatment but I am not jumping to conclusions that MD's using herbs do not know what they are doing unless I see some actual proof that this is a fact.

With all the drug recalls, I often wonder if MD's are ever fully educated about what drugs do to us as they only know what the pharmaceutical companies pass on to them or they wouldn't prescribe these harmful drugs that get recalled in the first place.

I've come to the conclusion that since there is no one size fits all lyme treatment that makes everyone well, that I just have to educate myself the best I can and make my best choice.

I'm grateful to all who share their treatment choices and kudos to the doctors who think outside the box in a sincere effort to help their patients improve their health.

As far as cost of herbs, I search out the most cost effective but reliable sources. I don't believe you need to use Nutramedix if you can find a more reasonably priced source elsewhere.
 

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Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
 
I agree with you, Looking. Many of the doctors I have seen were very cognizant of the use of herbs, as well as drugs.

There were some that were completely ignorant - but I think they were just ignorant people in general, about everything. Or, overly greedy... Some "experts" that I have seen in "alternative" medicine were quite ignorant, as well.

You just have to keep searching until you find a doctor who is compatible with your own philosophy about health & wellness. You also have to do the research & make up your own mind.
 

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Posted by doc (Member # 14471) on :
 
Tkx for all the input ,But can we get back to original idea of this thread. ANYONE else using the new herbal tx ENULA.

and hows it working , any side effects & other thoughs on its use . thanks, DOC
 

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Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
 
I'd like to know, too.
 

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Posted by davidx (Member # 8326) on :
 
Hi all-

I just started on enula - 30 drops 2x per day. Does anyone know if it should be taken away from food or with food? Also, I am treating it like any other supplement and taking it at least 2-3 hours away from antibiotics. Is this correct or do you think it doesn't matter?

I just started it so I haven't noticed any positive or negative effects but will report back if and when I do.

-David
 

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Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
 
David, my LLMD has me taking it 30 minutes before a meal, doesn't matter if abx are taken with that meal or not. If you're on Full Cowden, I take it with burbur, cumanda, trace minerals, and serrapeptase.
 

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Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
 
You may want to ask Scott "the better health guy". It's on his list of what he's using.

http://www.betterhealthguy.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=63
 

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Posted by CherylSue (Member # 13077) on :
 
Enula users, did you ramp up or did you start with 30 drops twice daily? I started today with 5 drops. Made me a little sleepy possibly.

BTW, the new protocol Cowden chart shows Enula right before eating, and cumanda 30 minutes before eating.



CherylSue
 

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Posted by trish4 (Member # 14156) on :
 
I started right away 30drops 2x daily.
 

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Posted by doc (Member # 14471) on :
 
The wife also started at 30 drop /twice daily , Doc
 

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Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
 
My LLMD wanted me to start right at the 30 drops. Because he told me the same thing about Samento (and I ramped up on Samento and herxed a little when I added three drops in one day), I took 15 drops the first day to see what happened. The second day I went ahead and took all 30.
 

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Posted by METALLlC BLUE (Member # 6628) on :
 
It's called "practicing" medicine. It's my body and I'm responsible for whether it lives or dies, suffers or thrives. When I've explored all that science has to offer, and I've sifted through thousands of pages off Pubmed's database, searched the library, The New England Health Journal, Immunology, Dermatology, Journal of Gastroenterology, Endocrinology; when I've spoken to, phoned, e-mailed, and hand written letters to thousands of physicians trying to ascertain answers and I've tried every treatment I could for the particular illness I have, and I've run every test that a competent average physician should, then you're right, I will go to alternative practitioners, whether M.D. or specifically specialized in herbology or alternative therapy. I'll go to whoever has the next best risk/benefit ratio, including training, experience, patient reports, legal conflicts, additional training, age, gender, location.

Credibility isn't all that credible if you've been following Lyme Disease for the past 30 years. Well known competent physicians have performed one clinical trial after another. Brain Spect Scans, IV Rocephin, Oral Doxycycline, -- NIH funded, privately funded, as well as studies overseas in Japan, Germany, Hungry, Switzerland, Sweden, France. Let's not forget the animal studies. It's only recently -- Dr. Fallon for example, that any even remote mainstream studies have begun shaking the true core of chronic infection with Lyme.

The fact is, all scientific revolutions take time, and if credibility, scientific fact were the last word on Lyme Disease in it's chronic form (Or chronic co-infections), none of you would have an ongoing diagnosis. If you depended on someone being a master conclusively experienced, with 20-30 years of experience in treating Lyme, you'd find yourself with very few physicians available to treat the hundreds of thousands who are infected. The fact is, most medical doctors that practice at this exact moment, are between age 25-50. Now go ahead, do the math. Lyme Disease understood as a bacterial infection = 1982. Antibiotic testing was sparse but began "officially" in 1980 under Dr. Steere. So that's 28 years - 30 years, given it's currently 2008. With the average doctor currently practicing medicine between age 25-50, how many years of experience does the average doctor have on Lyme Disease? Not much. Now, say we reduced the number to only those who specialize in infectious disease, which has an average age of between 35-50 currently practicing. Oh look, the number is even smaller. Now, let's reduce the number further to only those who specialize specifically in Lyme disease (Since those not specialized in infectious disease can't possibly be well educated on an infectious disease), and the number dwindles to a handful around the world, perhaps at most 50-100 doctors.

Don't you know the ELISA has an extensive failure rate, that the Western Blot has an extensive failure rate. Don't you know? Haven't you read the studies from around the world which contradict the "credible" studies that indicate not only is Lyme Disease capable of persisting in-spite of long term antibiotic use, but that these tests are insufficient?

Facts are not always truth, they can often be used to obscure the truth in-fact (no pun intended). Lyme Disease has only been around in the scientific literature as a "bacterial borne infection" since Willy B observed it in 1982. That's "less" than 30 years we've had for "experienced" physicians and herbalists to grasp all the complexities of what is clearly -- if you read the literature -- not a simplistic species.

Go ahead and stand for what you stand for, I nor anyone else has a problem with that I'm sure, but you better understand very clearly that when you've exhausted all options, and you've clearly been forced to go beyond the boundaries of objective truth, you'll have to make a new decision and take a new stand. Will you trust Samento? Glutathione? Enula? Rife therapy, the Marshall Protocol, will you self treat with antibiotics that you purchase yourself? Will you, when faced with life and death, after having received little or no results through all the other better ratios of risk to benefit, continue to stand idle on the fence intellectually batting logic around, waiting while the clock winds down to your life?

You can always make more money, make more excuses, even make more ignorant assumptions, but you can't make more time. It's finite, just like the knowledge of physicians.

When 10 people tell me their favorite movie is Goodfellas, and that I should see it, I might consider it, even if my favorite movie is the Godfather. When 20 say it, maybe when I get around to it. When 100 people across the internet say it, ok -- maybe it's good, I'll rent it next week, but when countless thousands tell me Samento from Nutramedix works, and I pick some up after having gone all this distance, studied all these things, and in-spite of all my skepticism find suddenly it works, I'm going to turn to my physicians and say "This works for me!" and when they say "There are no studies, I can't support it" -- you're damn right I'm going to go to someone else who does or attempt to treat myself, and I'll pick the best way that I can given realistic opportunity, my knowledge, cost and the availability of a good health care professional.

Stand where you stand, have your convictions but don't patronize us, we weren't born yesterday.
 

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Posted by KauaiGoddess (Member # 11782) on :
 
Aloha,

I began 30 drops of Enula 2x/d....

I really haven't noticed much...maybe a bit achey, but can't really say...

the ball of my foot hurt to walk on it, for two days, which is a BArt thing...so maybe just a coincidence? Never had the foot pain before...

I've been taking it on an empty stomach...some said they take it with food? or just before eating....

my LLMD never really specified....

I hope it's killing those guys!

Keeping watch,
Fawne
 

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Posted by WildCondor (Member # 434) on :
 
I'm really getting annoyed with this entire topic.
Reason being that LLMD's, Dr. Cowden, and Nutramedix themselves simply DO NOT know how these herbs work, why they work, and what impact they have on our long term health. Nutramedix is not legally allowed to say what these herbs do. They simply provide us with a product to use at our own risk. You all must accept that risk.

I am all for new treatments and realize this has been an exiting time for patients with something new to try. My issue is what do these herbs do to alter gut ecology? Antibiotics always wipe out our good flora and increase our chances of developing c.diffiicle. I can tell you that I have personally had 2 c.diff relapses due to trying out the Cowden herbs.

I had been feeling extremely well Lyme wise and off all antibiotics for 3 plus years. I tried the Cowden herbs to see if I would still herx, and see if they would do anything to make me feel even better Lyme wise. Since I could no longer take antibiotics due to c.diff, I figured why not try them out. Well, bad idea!! Wham, the c.diff came back, so it obviously wipes out good gut flora.

What is really grating on my last nerve is that I have spoken to 2 prominent LLMD's who told me flat out that "These herbs will not hurt your gut and not impact your gut flora." Well, HOW DO THEY KNOW THAT????? Where are the studies on real patients, the proof??? I asked Nutramedix myself, and they said, they are "probably ok," but to Ask Dr. Cowden. Nutramedix was honest and professional about it, and I applaud them for that. It's our beloved LLMD's who are now putting their reputations in jeopardy by making claims when they simply do not know the answers.

So, the "let's stay Lyme free forever by trying out the herbs" experiment is now over and the patients who are actually on these experimental herbs can speak the truth. That's my experience, and it's bugging me that our LLMD's are not being honest by admitting that they simply do know know what these herbs do. Don't make claims without backing them up. It made me mad when I saw all the posts about loose stools, and just because these are herbs, they may have "antibiotic" properties so you have to do quite a bit of guessing and assuming. be careful, try it out, hope for the best, but keep an open mind.
 

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Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
 
I'm not an expert but it may be the alcohol in the tinctures that is aggravating your gut issues, Condor. Not the herbs...

I've read alot of info about these herbs & Cumanda is supposed to be anti-fungal. You may be able to burn off the alcohol by putting the herb tincture drops into boiling water & wait until there is no alcohol smell or use a capsule form of the whole herb.

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What is CUMANDA?

Cumanda is an herbal extract made from the bark of the Campsiandra angustifolia tree found in the Amazon basin. It has been used by indigenous groups in that region for hundreds of years.

Known medicinal properties include:
ANTIBACTERIAL
ANTIFUNGAL
ANTIVIRAL
ANTIPARASITIC
ANTI-INFLAMMATORY
ANALGESIC
IMMUNE SYSTEM MODULATOR

Cumanda is very effective in treating the Borrelia burgdorferi bacteria, and practitioners are now using it in conjunction with Samento to treat Lyme Borrelisosis. Lyme Borreliosis has been linked to hundreds of medical conditions; many researchers and physicians believe that Lyme Borreliosis may be a factor in most chronic conditions.

One of the most impressive benefits of Cumanda is its antifungal action. Physicians report that it is effective in treating many difficult to treat fungi including Mycosis fungoides, Candida krusei, Candida albicans and Aspergillus niger, to name a few.

In May 2005, pharmacological studies were conducted in laboratory rodents at the University of Guayaquil in Ecuador . In an anti-inflammatory effect study the Nutramedix Cumanda inhibited inflammation by 97%. It was compared with Pfizer's best selling and very toxic anti-inflammatory drug, Feldene (PIROXICAM), which inhibited inflammation by 98%.

In another pharmacological study conducted in laboratory rodents at the University of Guayaquil in Ecuador . Nutramedix Cumanda was determined to be 86% as effective as aspirin as an analgesic.

There are no known contraindications, no known side effects and no known interactions with other drugs when using Campsiandra angustifolia products like Cumanda. In May 2005, toxicology studies were conducted on Nutramedix Cumanda at the University of Guayaquil, Ecuador. No toxic effects were reported even when laboratory rodents received 240,000 times the equivalent human dose.
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Everything is experimental when it comes to trying to get rid of Lyme - antibiotics, supplements, & herbal therapies.

Also, we each have different ways of reacting to the treatments, different genetics & there are about 300 different strains of Lyme - not including the co-infections.

Many herbal treatments have been used & studied for millenia if you include Chinese herbal medicine, Native American, Indian Aurevedic medicine, and Amazonian medicine men/women, etc...

The herbs have been used & studied for many years - maybe more than most pharmaceutical drugs.

If you have a bad reaction it doesn't mean that all herbal remedies are not studied and don't work. You may have an allergy or that particular herb may not be the correct one for you.

I have read many postings on various message boards by people with chronic Lyme who have cured themselves with the Buhner protocol & have improved by using the Cowden protocol & Zhang protocol.

It's just up to the individual to do the research & decide with treatments they feel most comfortable with.

I think herbal medicine offers a great alternative to using antibiotics. I just don't feel comfortable using long term aggressive abx therapy.
 

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Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
 
WildCondor is absolutely right and it's a travesty that professional doctors are recommending herbs they really don't understand, as part of a medical protocol. I much more respect my own doctor who when I put a plan in front of him some months ago shook his head about the herbs. There are no studies, he said, and basically, he did not say, don't take them, but he also made it clear, not on his watch, so to speak.

[ 30. March 2008, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: oxygenbabe ]
 

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Posted by Brussels (Member # 13480) on :
 
Oxygenbabe,

just keep in mind that a single herb has THOUSANDS of chemical components. I'm not talking about dozens, hundreds, but THOUSANDS.

It has NOTHING to do with a single isolated chemical that drugs are made of (or few components) that can go through extensive research (that are not always trustable too).

Fennel (veggy) has one component that was found cancerigenous. But how about the other THOUSANDS components of fennel?

Same as for CINNAMON. It's also 'proved' that a species of it has one cancerigenous component.

I'm pretty sure that if research is done in every single thing we ingest daily, they'll find cancerigenous substances in absoultely everything. But a plant is not formed by a single component. What about the interactions between these thousands of chemicals?

Am I going to wait until thousands of studies appear on how this single chemical in fennel interact with each of the other thousands of elements to eat fennel?

Because one element may 'cancel' the effect of the other, in terms of cancerigenous effects (Buhner writes about that, how these chemicals interact in a single plant).

I definitively won't wait. I do eat fennel.

As someone said above, life is too short, lyme treatment history is too short to just leave an alternative/ conventional treatment apart.

I myself was a guinea pig (like I guess, all of us in this board are) for herbs and alternative treatments. I'm glad I'm in remission and I feel I can somehow live my life again, without the panic I had before of getting out in the wild/ garden etc. Of catching lyme again.

Because for me, lyme is now 'curable', for my family too, I'm getting slowly my life back in all its senses. I mean, I know I can put it in remission, like my daughter did, like I did. Even if that's not a definitive solution (because it can come back), it's a minimum solution for me to have my life back.

Herbs can be dangerous, that's right, but never forget that any drug has its danger too. Even fennel or cinnamon too!!!

As for gut problems, I never really did diet and never got the GI candida problem (except after getting acute infection in the gut for a few weeks).

I didn't do oregano oil and stronger stuff like that though, but Samento, cats claw, Buhners herbs in general and the dozens of Chinese herbs I took didn't cause me intestinal problems at all.

And that was my weak point since I'm adolescent for decades. I am sensitive to many things, drugs specially, but I chose dozens of herbs and that worked. I can't take all herbs either (neem, amargo caused me a reaction, coptis I almost 'died' of kidney pain, etc etc).

If I get an allergic reaction to anything (herb/ drug/ food) , I will get intestinal problems almost immediately too. Many ortomolecular suplements will cause me diarrhea/ GI disturbances too. It doesn't mean that all supplements do me bad!

Just wanting to say that one can't think of herbs like drugs (they're just not, because of the thousands of components). That there won't be extensive research on herbs because they can't be patented. That even if I find herbs safer than drugs, not everyone can take every herb FOR SURE.

And that, if I had to do it all over again (I may, because I live in tick infected land), I'm trusting my herbs enough to live a peaceful life!

Selma
 

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Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
 
Selma, I recall you working with a naturopath and being muscle tested and learning muscle testing for everything.

I am not against herbs at all. I'm saying that for "lyme literate medical doctors", *medical* doctors with no real knowledge of herbs, who have not previously prescribed herbs, to so abandon standard of care that they willy-nilly prescribe nutramedix herbs, even new formulas for "babesia" just because nutramedix and Dr. Cowden *say* it is for babesia, is careless.

Dr. Toth just got a jail sentence for giving IV bismacine (a heavy metal) to a lyme patient who died as a result of the treatment.

First do no harm. I am saying that LLMD's who think herbs are useful should consult with a knowledgeable naturopath or herbalist with a degree from a reputable institution like Bastyr, which means they have studied under the best teachers and let me tell you, Bastyr is a very challenging school (I'm saying, don't go to an herbalist with a quickie internet degree)...or consult with a Chinese medical practitioner with decades of experience, since Chinese medicine goes back thousands of years itself.

What is upsetting me is that these doctors really *don't* know what these herbs do. A quicky course or a reassurance by Nutramedix means nothing. They are not protecting their patients. What they know best is how antibiotics impact lyme. That is where they have experience. That is valuable experience and frankly they should stick to that.
 

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Posted by Wallace (Member # 4771) on :
 
1. Cowden has a financial relationship with Nutramedix. Doesn't he?

2. They have been no studies on Lyme and Samento liquid(yes there was one done with the capsule but the liquid I think of something completly different. How do we know its fify times more potent than the capsule?)

3. When Buhner(in Healing Lyme) tried to ask some hard questions about Samento to Cowden and Nutramedix, he was stonewalled. If there are not going to answer Buhner I doubt we will get any further.

4. But anecdotally people say Samento and all their other herbs have helped them so if you are desperate......and you trust your LLMD who recommends them....

wallace
 

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Posted by robi (Member # 5547) on :
 
........... and we are attacking each other why?

I really find this hard to believe in light of what we are all facing.

Does one person have to convince the other that what they have chosen is right? IMHO, you do what is right for you and let me do what is right for me. We get to make decisions for ourselves.

There are excellent arguments for doing ABX, not doing ABX, mixing in herbs, not mixing in herbs. Using LLMD's, herbalists, nutritionists, etc etc. Education and experience play a role in my decisions to choose a practitioner. Some have more "hands on" experience, some more educated in schools. Both are valuable. We all do our own research .............. and make our own decisions and have our own opinions.

Please do not attack me for mine.

Ok,
robi
 

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Posted by WildCondor (Member # 434) on :
 
I really wish our LLMD's and trusted medical providers would simply admit when they do not know the answer to something. They are not God, and they do not have to provide an answer for everything. I would respect them a heck of a lot more if they shook their heads and admitted that they do not know what these herbs do, or do not do. It is too early to tell what the long term results will be and making false claims is illogical.
 

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Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
 
Robi:
"Does one person have to convince the other that what they have chosen is right? IMHO, you do what is right for you and let me do what is right for me. We get to make decisions for ourselves."

That is not really the case. For instance, the patient who died under Dr. Toth's care, from IV bismacine, had a long patient-doctor relationship with him and trusted his medical expertise.

You don't always get to make decisions for yourself.

That's why you have to rely on your doctor's expertise, and the doctors prescribing herbs should simply not be doing it.

Again, if they feel herbs could be useful, they should send their patient to a respected herbalist with a degree and clinical experience, and consult with them.

Yes, Wallace, Dr. Cowden clearly has a financial relationship with Nutramedix.

First do no harm--Hippocrates.
This is not about attacking each other.
Its about sloppy medical care.
 

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Posted by Looking (Member # 13600) on :
 
Wild Condor & Oxygen Babe, why are you saying that all LLMD's who recommend herbs are unqualified to do so? I haven't seen you present proof that this is the case.

How is it you know this information? Has every LLMD shared their herbal education with you?

It seems a big exaggeration to say such a thing, it is just an assumption without evidence to back it up. Just like saying all doctors who use long-term antibiotics are quacks.

It would be more believeable if you said it was the few you have talked to that aren't educated in terms of herbs -- do you think anyone believes you know this about every LLMD?

And as far as the Bismacine case, what has that got to do with a thread on enula? Why not post about the people who have lost their lives on IV antibiotics under mainstream medical care. This happens too.

There is no Lyme treatment that is 100% effective or 100% safe. Some antibiotics have permanently injured people as well.

Why hijack a thread on enula to promote your own personal opinions on LLMD's who use herbs? I would think it would be more appropriate to start your own thread about this topic if it concerns you so greatly.

And yes, your information has not been well received because it comes across as talking down to those who want to explore herbal treatment from their LLMD's.

And you seem to be presenting your opinions as facts. There are risks in all treatments and people will make up their own minds.

People die all the time from doctor prescribed drugs and I don't really believe any doctors know the full effect drugs can have on each individual so there is no guarantee that your drug-educated doctor is going to keep you safe.

You go to the doctor, they give you a drug -- you complain about the side effects, they give you a different drug.

It would be wonderful if all doctors knew how anything they prescribe to us will effect each individual but that is not the case. But apparently you believe that LLMD's should possess this special talent when it comes to herbs.

And there's no guarantee going to a herbalist will ensure you don't have a reaction to a certain herb either and do herbalists know all reactions a certain herb "may" have with every drug we may take? I doubt it.

Personally, I would rather try enula knowing that I may experience some digestive problems, than try some of the antibiotics that may permanently ruin my tendons.

I also really find it funny when people say Cowden or others have financial interests in herbs or books, etc. Doctor's have financial interests in drugs and get rewarded from drug companies for prescribing them.

And a recent post was just lamenting the thousands of dollars needed to get a course of IV antibiotics, which makes the price of herbs pale in comparison. If there's free lyme treatment out there please let everyone know.

Anyway, I certainly hope you find what works for you if herbs have not been beneficial for you.

JMHO
 

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Posted by robi (Member # 5547) on :
 
"You don't always get to make decisions for yourself.
That's why you have to rely on your doctor's expertise, and the doctors prescribing herbs should simply not be doing it. "

Well, I do make decisions for myself. I consult with dotors and alternative practitioners. I value their expertise. Still, I try to research what I can.

I would say most docs do not know all interactions of all pharmaceutical drugs. Herbalists don't know all interactions of herbs with pharmaceutical drugs. What makes it ok for an herbalist to prescribe herbs and not know of all interactions with pharm meds a patient is on?

The reality is there are very few who are equally educated in both arenas. There are a few and if you have one that is great. Can I have his/her name? (comic relief)

I choose to see practitioners who will "step outside the box" and help me heal. Yes, there are risks. I have chosen intelligent, thoughtful practitioners and I make informed choices based on their opinions and the info I have gathered.

Hey, the IDSA says that lyme is easily curable. Are you gonna rely on their expertise? I bet you decided not to rely on that .............

There are many options. Degrees and letters following someones name doesn't mean much to me. KNowledge has little to do with getting a degree. ( and yes I have a couple so don't think I am saying that because I lack a degree.)

Please just chill.


Feeling groovy,
robi
 

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Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
 
Well put Robi and Looking.

I'd rather work with an LLMD with clinical experience in dealing with Lyme than an herbalist without experience in Lyme but knowledge of herbs.

The truth is, we don't know about the safety of the long term meds we take or the various combinations of them either, yet I risk the danger because things are that bad.

I actually risked the drugs that can cause tendon damage.

I am so glad I took these risks, because aside from some adrenal/thyroid issues, I am better. Still some lingering babesia, but off Lyme and bart drugs at this time (for a couple months now).

I couldn't have gotten where I am by leaving out either the herbs or the meds.
 

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Posted by doc (Member # 14471) on :
 
six , are u 12 1/2 days on - 1 1/2 off *?(enula) as was what my wife was told .
Doc
 

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Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
 
Doc, yes, I do.
 

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Posted by WildCondor (Member # 434) on :
 
I believe many of you are missing the point. It is simply too early to tell what these herbs do, good or bad. My point is that LLMD's should refrain from making unsubstantiated claims about results prematurely. Nobody knows yet what the long-term impacts are, so caution IS needed. I never said LLMD's are not qualified to recommend herbal protocols. I am also in full support of trying the herbal protocols and have high hopes that they will indeed be beneficial long term.

The point is that each of you has to realize that, like antibiotics, you have to accept the risks, and the fact that our doctors do not yet have the answers. We are all guinea pigs in essence with these protocols, and our doctors track the clinical results. Nobody is attacking anyone, we are working together to demonstrate the currently known facts.
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
There are risks but I don't see these as different from antibiotics. All must be done with knowledge of risks and working with a doctor. I am seeing more and more practitioners using herbs including some that used to focus solely on antibiotics. I think we have to be open to these options but personal choice is personal choice - you have to make the decision.
 

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Posted by Brussels (Member # 13480) on :
 
I missed a bit of the discussion the last days...

Oxygenb., yes I worked with a naturopath and an alternative doctor, but THEY followed what I did, mostly. They worked on me on other levels of healing, but not much on the actual herbs for lyme and co-infections.

I mean, I chose ALL the herbs for lyme and co-infections last year. These were dozens and dozens of them. My practioners were working on homeopathic things for my organs, and on cleansing and on phsycho-detox (!).

They only checked my herbs energetically (they even DON'T KNOW ALL THE NAMES of herbs I was taking) and said: 'go on'. Yes, they can't know all plants, there are just too many. They trusted their energetic tests then.

They came to trust me too, I guess, as I was also doing my own energetic tests to find what are the stuff I could take. I did have some bad jokes sometimes, due to sensitivity to some herbs. But if I had to do it all again, with or without a practioner, I would do it. Of course, I have now some experience myself to say that. But it's nothing like 'professional' experience!!

If it takes years for practioners to accumulate experience on dozens of antibiotics, it will take FOREVER with herbs. And herbs are much more difficult, because of the thousands of chemicals, it's like they react differently every time we take them, at every different phase of the disease... So imagine the variations of reactions these guys won't get.

Like teasel. Teasel never worked for my lyme before, during more than 2 years I was fighting it. Suddenly, I got an EM rash and a relapse a bit more than a month ago, and Buhner's core protocol was not enough to get these awakening borrelia...

Only adding teasel, bam, it did the job this time. Now I'm off most B's herbs that I was taking as profilaxy but keeping on teasel 2x day, just in case. I was a very skeptical teasel tincture user, now I start to wonder why teasel is working even for my fungi (that never reacted to it before)...

The few explanations could be because of the thousands of chemicals, that some are acting now and before weren't (as I use the same home made teasel bottle); or that the infection mutated/ adapted, and now get hit by things it didn't. My skin fungi are here with me for more than a decade, so...

The only thing I'm real afraid is metal detox or any heavy detox. That, I agree with you totally. I would never do this stuff by myself (not in the beginning at least). NOW, after entering my 3rd year, I'm doing by myself, I have to admit. But not before.

For myself, I'm glad that doctors are trying on herbs. I find them much easier to ingest than most drugs. Of course, this is personal.

Just see metal detox. Few (or next to none) LLMDs were talking about that earlier. Dr. B. wasn't, and now he's talking (I guess this is not his specialty either).

I'm positive, that these changes sometimes come for good of us, sufferers!
------------

Wallace, I also had a negative feeling about Nutramedix specifically because of the Samento story. I felt they didn't play clean with these researches done by themselves... I would trust Buhner more on that too.

The only problem is that Buhner's herbs didn't work well for co-infections for me. So I had to keep on looking.

I do think Nutramedix are trying hard to find out solutions for lyme. The problem is always the cost (in my opinion). Still not high comparable to a few months of Mepron though!

I would research/read about all plants and try the whole herb approach too. Rain tree has many new alternatives. For me, Samento never worked wonderful, but whole cats claw did (and still do, as I never dropped it totally). But my daughter reacted to Samento well.

Now I'm just glad there are other alternatives to lyme treatment coming up. We don't have to embrace one OR other approach, but pick what interests us from each. In my opinion!

One Nutramedix product that I'll always have at home is the Noni tincture. While Noni juice NEVER did anything noticeable for me (except for the awful suffering to drink this awful thing), this tincture saved me from babesia once, for that I'm truly grateful!

Selma
 

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Posted by Wallace (Member # 4771) on :
 
Nutramedix say that their one bottle of Noni equals 40 bottles of ordinary Noni. Have they proved that? They are full of this kind of marketing spin.

They keep coming out with new products without bothering to find out how effective there old products are. There is a definite lack of transparency there.

I regret that Scott didnt use his opportunity with Cowden to question him critically on some of these issues.

I have met both Cowden and the M.D of Nutramedix and they seemed perfectly fine and wouldnt rule out using their products but feel that Nutramedix have some crediblity issues to answer.

We desperately need herbal products to help us.

I know their products have helped people. But I am just a little disappointed in them.

We had such high hopes for Samento when it was launched and they keep giving us these hopes for their next product and so on...........

Wallace
 

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Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
 
Well, I hadn't had a night sweat in a long time ..... but I had a bad one last night and it coincided exactly with my 36 hours off the Enula (still on art, malarone, and lariam).

I don't know if that's confirmation, but it seems that the enula might be doing something.
 

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Posted by doc (Member # 14471) on :
 
Six, same thing happened to my wife when she went off for 1 1/2 days.

not sure what that means , maybe coming back out of hideing.
Doc
 

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Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
 
Hoping to not hijack things further...

I did read in Buhner's book - not mentioning by name - that he was ****ed at Cowden for not sharing info about Nutramedix's research on their herbs...

There are alot of different reasons that this may be the case.

1. There's alot of quackbusting going on & Cowden has been the victim of it (as far as I could see).

2. Stating medical claims for herbs can be dangerous due to FDA harassment.

3. If Nutramedix pays for research outside of the country on a particular herbal product - I don't think they are obligated to share their research to anyone who's interested for free. They make money selling a product. Does any company that develops a particular product have to give away all their proprietary research for free? I don't think so...

4. I don't see that Cowden is obligated to give his opinion away to Buhner so Buhner can publish the info in a book.

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In a perfect world it would be nice if everyone was co-operative... but it's just not the case.

All this bashing of alternative views especially about alternative therapies is distasteful.

We are all in the same boat.

None of us are experts on Lyme except in regards to our own experience - this is true for doctors & other so-called experts.

It's just unfortunate that there are so many issues surrounding this illness. It makes it difficult to find proper treatment.

Way more people have been harmed or injured by pharmaceutical drugs than herbal remedies.

I just don't think it's appropriate for people to be lecturing everyone on the dangers of herbal medicine or how evil Cowden/Nutramedix is for charging money for their tinctures & herbal products.

Especially, in light of the truly heinous crime of lack of public health assistance & awareness for people with Lyme & warning people of the dangers of Lyme.

BTW - Nutramedix does give away the protocol for free for 6 months to people who have their doctor contact the company.

Each doctor can receive the complete protocol for 1 patient for free for 6 months.

I have received the complete protocol for free from Nurtamedix about a week ago.
 

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Posted by hiker53 (Member # 6046) on :
 
Any doctor or company that is unwilling to share their research is suspect in my eyes. Why would I want to take an herb or any kind of drug if I did not have research to back it up ( na dknow interactions, side effects etc). But that's just my opinion. Who owns Nutramedix--does Cowden have a stake in it? If that is the case I feel that is dangerous medicine. Hiker53
 

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Posted by Wallace (Member # 4771) on :
 
We are just have a calm discussion so lets not attack each other!


If nutramedix wont respond to herbalists fine but they (such as Buhner) are then unlikely to recommend them to their patients or even readers!

If there are giving away the stuff for free why wont they answer a few simple questions?!!

Rain tree also have a few doubts about Samento.

If it was all free I would take them but then I am not on abx.

Cowden is addressing the fungal issue in some of the remedies which I see as interesting. Send me some if you are given too many freebies!!!

Wallace
 

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Posted by sunshinyday (Member # 14337) on :
 
Oxygenbabe
You don't need to attack. This board is supposed to be about sharing in a safe environment. We should be able to share our successes as well as our failures, so that others can learn as well. There is not a failsafe method yet for success. This is a complicated disease.

Disagreement can be done with kindness. Our enemy is the bacteria not each other.

Gail

Gail
 

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Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
 
I've posted this a few times now...

NutraMedix is currently offering their complete six month protocol free to one patient per healthcare practitioner.

If you are interested, please have your healthcare practitioner contact NutraMedix directly for further information.

NutraMedix can be reached via their web site at http://www.NutraMedix.com or by phone at 561-745-2917.

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I have no vested interest in Cowden or Nutrimedix.

After reading through a bunch of info, the Cowden protocol just seemed to be the easiest one to use.

They send you all the herbs you need plus a schedule as to when to take what.

After being ill for so long, it was hard for me to try to figure out what herbs to take from the Buhner book plus the dosages, where to get them, etc.

If the Nutramedix herbs don't work, I'll try Buhner's recommendations or maybe Zhang or some other herbal protocol.


I think doctors who stick their necks out & come up with alternative protocols are a bit cautious.

Cowden has been under attack. He's an actual MD - so, he does have alot to lose if the FDA or the quackbusters pull him on the carpet.


Buhner doesn't have as much to lose. He's not part of the "medical establishment".

I don't think that Cowden is obligated to release his research that he pays for to other healers.

Like I said, in a perfect world - it would be nice.

I'm sure there are reasons that Cowden is keeping his findings private.

He has written a number of books but I don't think they are about Lyme.

We all need to make a living. The herbs aren't that expensive compared to other medical costs...

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PS - hiker53 - the info about the herbs & the studies Nutramedix has done is on the Nutramedix website. You can also cross-reference any of the herbal formulas with other research done throughout history.

THIS IS MY ASSUMPTION ABOUT THE SITUATION:
It's just that Dr. Cowden (not mentioned by name in the Buhner book) did not want to shard the research with everyone in the alternative Lyme community so they could make money off of research that cost Nutramedix money.

Maybe Nutrimedix is all phoney but it's hard to say. I think people are getting better using the protocol.

I'd prefer to give the herbal formulas a chance before trying antibiotics again. I think the abx are potentially damaging & I'd rather try herbal medicine.

I've had Lyme for 10 years - untreated... I don't think it's going to matter much since I already gave the abx a chance last year.

The abx didn't help me at all.
 

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Posted by CherylSue (Member # 13077) on :
 
I tried Enula for almost a week and worked up to 15 drips twice daily. However, it does have a laxative effect, and I didn't really care for that, so I stopped. I may try again.

I've been on cumanda since July and doxycycline since December. I think I need something a bit more. I'm functioning at 80%, but still suffer from fatigue and lightheadednedss. I'm thinking of trying Buhner's Japanese Knotweed (resveratrol) to see if that may help.

CherylSue
 

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Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
 
I think that may be the point of enula (re: being a sort of purgative).

I'm on the full Cowden & I just started enula plus a bunch of other herbs & supplements as recommended in the protocol.

The issue of doing the full Cowden as opposed to just picking & choosing is that the herbs & supplements may have a synergistic effect.

You may want to continue but combine it with other things to lessen the laxative effect? Just a suggestion...

I guess I'll find out in time if it all works.

From what I know about herbs is that they can take a while before they work.

If people are taking abx for years - I think you just have to give the herbal remedies some time.

They aren't going to necessarily work faster than antibiotics.

It is good to rotate them every so often, in any case.
 

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Posted by Starphoenix (Member # 2402) on :
 
I am taking Enula. At just four drops a day right now, I'm herxing like wild. I can't believe how sick I've been since starting this. I was willing to try it since I've done Mepron and Malarone before, and I got a brown recluse spider bite recently. I was managing my "normal" TBDs, and then I got some infection(s) from this bite. It's behaving a lot like Babs, and I am familiar with Babs! My LLPA took tests (no results yet), and I have been on Avelox, Clindamycin (from PCP) and now doxy and Enula. Whatever I got is bad. I'm in a highly endemic area for TBDs, and if that spider bit a small animal here, I got more for sure. (It was definitely a spider. We get them in here. I saw one just recently, as a matter of fact. I'm missing tissue now on a foot; I had cellulitis, skin infection, too.)

I'm sorry for digressing.

LLPA said the Enula is for Babs.

Wow. It's been forever since I've been here! I wish I could say it was because I've been doing well. Abx failed me, and I've been giving it a go with rife. I've been under a lot of personal stress, also, and I was just getting depressed coming here. Not that you all aren't supportive. It's just that I can't ignore these illnesses, and, sometimes, I want a little mental break from them.

Short story: Lyme, Babs, Bart since 1985. Not really sure about the Bart now. I was managing rather well except for the severe fibromyalgia I have as a result of the infections. Then, I got this bite.

Back to Enula: I get headaches, sweating, flushing, terrible pain, mood disturbance, dizziness, and more (just can't think well right now). It seems herx-y, but I do wonder about side effects/adverse reactions.

Star
 

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