posted
got back yesterday from wifes llmd app. he switched meds and added enula(for babs)
she has gotten loossse stools overnight. wondering if others have this problom. is it something we should call dr. on right away.
any feed back on how it working for others ?
kinda new , Doc
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savebabe
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I started enula about a week ago, and I was shocked as to how strong it is.
I noticed an increase in some of my symptoms which I believe is a herx, but did not have loose stool.
Maybe you can pulse or decrease the amount of drops you use per day.
I would also call you llmd, just to make sure it isn't anyting serious.
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sixgoofykids
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Are you sure it's the enula causing the loose stools and not one of the other meds?
I'm on enula. I don't really have an opinion on it yet. I did herx a little when I added it. Now I've added back Malarone and Artemisia, too, in addition to the Lariam I am already on, so I don't know which is working ..... but something is definitely causing a herx!
If the loose stools continue, it does warrant a call to the LLMD.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
Yes I just started enula 30drops twice a day and have loose stools. But it could also be from all the other medication I just started as well.
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sixgoofykids
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Yes, I'm on both art and enula.
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D Bergy
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If I had to guess at it, I would say that one or both are killing a lot of bacteria in your intestinal tract. The loose stool is just your body getting rid of it.
Once it is all eliminated, it should return to normal.
D Bergy
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Clarissa
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Cumanda, another family of Nutramedix definitely loosened my stools.
It happened to work out for me because the cholestyramine I take constipates me so it actually helped.
I think it oould definitely be the addition of the herb, in fact, my LLMD warned me that the Cumanda may cause loose stools.
posted
My doc has me on 30 drops of Enula twice a day, taken in water 1/2 hour before breakfast and dinner.
No ramping up.
I haven't noticed loose stools from it. In fact, still need to take the magnesium to keep me going every day. And I'm drinking about a gallon of water daily, so it's not that.
-------------------- If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there. - Lewis Carroll Posts: 356 | From Body-PA, Mind-elsewhere | Registered: Dec 2007
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oxygenbabe
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I simply don't understand how medical doctors with no herbal knowledge can just put their patients on herbal formulas whose consequences are unknown, without any knowledge of how they'll interact with abx as well. I would personally not want such a doctor to treat me.
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sixgoofykids
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quote:Originally posted by oxygenbabe: I simply don't understand how medical doctors with no herbal knowledge can just put their patients on herbal formulas whose consequences are unknown, without any knowledge of how they'll interact with abx as well. I would personally not want such a doctor to treat me.
This is harsh. How can you conclude that my doctor has no knowledge of herbal medicine?
The truth is he's giving a talk on it at an upcoming convention.
Besides, we're all guinea pigs already with the abx combos we're on.
I'm glad you don't want to be treated by my doctor, he's already too busy.
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CherylSue
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I would imagine the enula is killing something and the biotoxins are trying to leave your wife's body in a hurry via bm's. I think it is actually a good sign.
In my opinion, CherylSue
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oxygenbabe
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SixGoofy, would you go to an herbalist with a smattering of knowledge about antibiotics? Doctors with MD's are trained through four years of medical school, residency etc, they learn a lot and there is a huge amount of information out there to study about drugs and their side effects.
I haven't heard of any LLMD who is a knowledgeable herbalist. If that LLMD went to Bastyr or one of the few other accredited schools as well, or is a master herbalist with decades of practical experience like Stephen Buhner, or is a traditional Chinese medicine doctor well studied and practiced in his tradition, okay. But otherwise I am astounded that some of these high profile LLMD's just add in these herbs marketed for lyme without even really knowing much about them. And how they mix with antibiotics. Just giving a lecture doesn't mean much to me.
Hopefully there will not be serious adverse reactions.
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jamescase20
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I agree with the both of you. When it comes to herbals I feel I just dont know what its going to do, interact, etc. Show me the data. But in lyme there is scant data, so going outside the box seems justified, and perhaps needed if one is to recover.
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I feel I must jump in here in support of Sixgoofykids - I know the LLMD in question works closely with Dr.Cowden - and is being educated in herbs by him! So it's not like he's just selecting these herbal remedies at random without having a clue what might happen!
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oxygenbabe
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And tell me what credentials Dr. Cowden really has? I see he has credentials to make money, to market and rename even common herbs like chamomile, to create a whole line of herbs to market to MD's, but I don't see that he is a trained herbalist. Nope. And I don't see that he has any idea if and how these multiple combinations of herbs interact with each other much less with antibiotics. And how did he even arrive at these formulations, with these names to make them sound unique, burbur, cumanda, enula.
It's a marketing gimmick.
If an MD wants to work with a highly trained herbalist, that's different. They could consult together.
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posted
As six and elaine ,said llmd in ? is well verst in supplmental herbs. as he has been useing them for many yrs with much help to many.
he is also one of the best llmd in the U.S. and we feel lucky to have his experince and knowlage in these trying times.
ox, if u have any input on the use of enula please let me know as im just intrested in peoples experince with this newer herb thanks all. Doc
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sixgoofykids
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Oxygenbabe, perhaps you give a greater value to schooling than I do. My husband has been in business for 20 years and does not have a business degree. He runs his own very successful company. Certainly he knows more about business than I do with my degree in business from one of the top ten business schools in the country.
The same with my LLMD. His 20 years of experience treating Lyme with herbs and abx means more to me than if he had a degree in ALL herbs.
Doc, I'm also on Malarone, Lariam, and Art. I'm just pulling out of my first monthly herx back on the meds. I don't know how big of a role the enula is playing, but so far so good. BIG herx! I'm hoping for a big recovery over the next couple days as I have gotten in the past from a big herx.
How's your wife doing on it so far?
BTW, I have had some loose stools ... not continually .... but I hadn't had any since taking care of parasites. It could be the enula.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
Hi six , Shes had (some) improvement, on nero symptoms, but not on pain and such.
she is now off doxy, still on plaquinal/malarone.(since january)
plus added zithro/ im penicialn/ enula. I guess time will tell. I will keep u posted.
I also got wb test , even tho my symptoms are milder. be a couple wks for results
? how long have u been treated by Dr H and r u seeing improvement. Doc
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sixgoofykids
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I have been seeing him since Jan 2005, and a few weeks ago was at 98%.
We had weaned back on meds, but not cut them out. My babs symptoms came back .... only air hunger. I still felt GREAT, but had air hunger.
When I started Malarone, Art, and Enula in addition to the Lariam and Plaquenil I was already on, I immediately herxed, then felt a little better but not where I was before.
Now I'm just pulling out of my regular monthly herx, so I'm hoping I'll be back in the 90 percent range soon.
So, yeah, he's helped me get my life back.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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Doc
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oxygenbabe
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Goofy, it's not I who give great importance to schooling, it's you. Didn't you go to an M.D. to treat your lyme? Why not go to someone without an M.D.? What's the point? Or does the M.D. after his name indicate that he had formal schooling which is absolutely necessary. However apparently he has not been so happy with his success with abx if he's adding in herbs, and I think I know who this LLMD is, adding these NutraMedix herbs for many patients. These herbs combine in all kinds of ways and an experienced herbalist with similar decades of experience in herbs should be used for any herbal treatment protocol for lyme imo. I'm glad you're feeling better but apparently after 2 years if you draw back on drugs you start to relapse.
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sparkle7
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Just my 2 cents. I don't really depend on doctors to tell me what to do. I do the research & make up my mind. I am lucky to have a very good doctor who I use as a consultant & advisor.
As per my research, I have decided to use the Cowden protocol & not take any abx. There have been studies that have found the Cowden protocol to be 70% effective in making people well who have Lyme. I decided to use this protocol because it has a well thought out protocol & they make it easy to use. I have always prefered tinctures since they are concentrated & can also be fresher & more effective than dry herbs.
Practically everything in medicine is trial & error. What can help one person, can harm someone else. We can't trust the FDA, drug companies, insurance companies, or alternative healers but we have to do something. If we sat around waiting for someone to come up with a "perfect" scientifically proven cure, we'll probably be dead by then.
I think the Cowden protocol is good. Many of the herbs come from the Amazon & they are not necessarily popular with western style herbalism. The Amazonian healers & medicine men are very well versed in the use of plants for healing but aren't going to give away all their gems of wisdom. That's why, I believe, they are not extensively documented. I have faith in this protocol & that's what's important to me. If it doesn't work, I'll try Zhang or Bhruner. I wasn't getting the kind of results I expected with abx & I didn't want to endlessly continue with them. I've done the research & it's my decision.
I really doubt anyone is going to die from taking the Cowden herbs. They might if they took Vioxx or Celebrex... Herbs can be effective & I don't think Cowden is trying to rip people off. We all have to make a living. No doctor is a god or goddess & can instantly cure every horrible illness. Some doctors are downright malevolent but many are just trying the best they can. That's why it's so important to do the research & make the decisions for yourself in addition to seeing a doctor.
FYI -
"A definitive review and close reading of medical peer-review journals, and government health statistics shows that American medicine frequently causes more harm than good. The number of people having in-hospital, adverse drug reactions (ADR) to prescribed medicine is 2.2 million. Dr. Richard Besser, of the CDC, in 1995, said the number of unnecessary antibiotics prescribed annually for viral infections was 20 million. Dr. Besser, in 2003, now refers to tens of millions of unnecessary antibiotics. The number of unnecessary medical and surgical procedures performed annually is 7.5 million. The number of people exposed to unnecessary hospitalization annually is 8.9 million. The total number of iatrogenic deaths shown in the following table is 783,936. It is evident that the American medical system is the leading cause of death and injury in the United States. The 2001 heart disease annual death rate is 699,697; the annual cancer death rate, 553,251."
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oxygenbabe
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Hi sparkle. First of all, you are not mixing them with drugs and that is different. Secondly, then you should study extensively the side effects, what pathways they use if known, and whether they might interact. You should be careful not to interpet everything as a herx. And, as for "here have been studies that have found the Cowden protocol to be 70% effective in making people well who have Lyme." A study isn't a study unless it's double blind by independent researchers without a bias. These are the furthest thing from real studies, they're sham studies for marketing.
The herbs may help some people and that's good but what's not good is the price charged. Way too much money is at stake. Zhang, too, would raise the prices for things--you could get his herb hh, a common chinese herb, for much cheaper elsewhere, and the same with his allitridi, it could be sourced for half the price he charged. When money is at stake, the claims for improvement seem to get much larger.
Buhner doesn't sell the herbs he recommends and treated his own hep c with herbs. A different story.
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sixgoofykids
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I find it necessary to clarify that I didn't even know I had Lyme two years ago and I have not relapsed. My LLMD cut back my meds after one year of treatment and 35 years of illness to see what would happen.
We were able to entirely eliminate Lyme and bartonella meds, but not the babs meds. We had to add those back in.
Just clearing up inaccuracy about my treatment. The other inaccuracies, I'm just SOB.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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oxygenbabe
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I am simply saying that you said your air hunger returned when trying to cut out your babs meds, rather quickly. That is what I call relapse, maybe you call it something else. Hopefully eventually you won't need the meds.
I'm glad you're better but nothing I've said is inaccurate.
I still think its careless and even dangerous for an M.D. with no formal studies in herbs, to accept another M.D.'s very expensive line of herbs, all of which have made-up names, and start prescribing them willy nilly to his patients.
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sixgoofykids
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quote:Originally posted by oxygenbabe: Goofy, it's not I who give great importance to schooling, it's you. Didn't you go to an M.D. to treat your lyme? Why not go to someone without an M.D.?
This is inaccurate. Your judgment of my reasoning is inaccurate.
Last time I checked, practicing medicine without a license was illegal.
If you get sick again after treatment, that would be the common definition of relapse. I was merely still sick.
My MD is primarily a holistic doctor, with years of experience in alternative medicine. He prescribes abx when necessary. He's not as you say, failing with abx, thus prescribing herbs ... and Cowden herbs are only part of the herbs that he uses. I hardly see that as dangerous or careless.
I just got a VERY interesting PM about someone's appointment with Dr. Cowden because this person knew I would be interested. They won't post it on the board because of people like you who attack. No one attacks your use of Buhner herbs, quit attacking us unjustly for using Cowden.
Congratulations, you have been successful at keeping relevant, interesting information from others.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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sixgoofykids
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quote:Originally posted by oxygenbabe: Goofy, it's not I who give great importance to schooling, it's you. Didn't you go to an M.D. to treat your lyme? Why not go to someone without an M.D.?
This is inaccurate. Your judgment of my reasoning is inaccurate.
Last time I checked, practicing medicine without a license was illegal.
If you get sick again after treatment, that would be the common definition of relapse. I was merely still sick ... and we didn't cut out all babs meds, only some of them.
My MD is primarily a holistic doctor, with years of experience in alternative medicine. He prescribes abx when necessary. He's not as you say, failing with abx, thus prescribing herbs ... and Cowden herbs are only part of the herbs that he uses. I hardly see that as dangerous or careless.
I just got a VERY interesting PM about someone's appointment with Dr. Cowden because this person knew I would be interested. They won't post it on the board because of people like you who attack. No one attacks your use of Buhner herbs, quit attacking us unjustly for using Cowden.
Congratulations, you have been successful at keeping relevant, interesting information from others.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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sixgoofykids
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You know, I was sitting here thinking, what relevance does my having to go back on babs meds have to do with the Cowden protocol???
The Cowden protocol has kept all the other bugs in check. They didn't have any herbs for babesia at the time I started it two months ago when I got off abx (still on Lariam).
Perhaps if they would have had enula back then, I would not have had to go back on Malarone. But enula wasn't out yet when I started back on Malarone.
So the fact that babesia is the only bug I'm having trouble with on the Cowden protocol shows the protocol is working for me!
Maybe it's not a double blind study, but it works in my case .... and there are people on this board who want to hear that.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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oxygenbabe
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"Congratulations, you have been successful at keeping relevant, interesting information from others."
How have I done that? Who am I attacking? I do not use Buhner herbs by the way. I don't use them because I don't have an experienced herbalist to oversee my use of these herbs.
My point is that there are many many red flags about the Cowden "protocol". There's no explanation of how Enula is to combat babesia and no animal studies. There is a combination of herbs he derived I know not how and he is saying is for babesia and the doctors are just "prescribing" them at once along with the whole other line of expensive Nutramedix herbs? Is it legal for an M.D., however holistic, to just prescribe herbs? There are experienced herbalists with degrees from extremely reputable institutions like Bastyr for instance, which has received various NIH grants at times to study herbs in clinical trials. I personally would rather such an herbalist consult with my LLMD should I decide to take herbs.
My first red flag about Nutramedix was in their taking cat's claw and calling it Samento. Now we have lots of renamed herbs in tincture form and combinations supposedly to treat lyme. With what foundation?
I raise questions, it is keeping others from useful information? I think not. That's why so many good posters are gone from this board. And if I don't shut up now I'll probably be gone.
I've voiced my concern and there's nothing more I can do than that.
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CherylSue
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I thought Dr. H of New York did a study using abx and the Cowden protocol with 170 patients. He found that following up with the Cowden protocol after abx seemed to prevent relapses in his patients. 70% of his patients improved MODERATELY on the Cowden protocol. He didn't say CURE.
Nutramedix products can be purchased from other distributors cheaper than their website and with no shipping charges.
I think the herbs are a good adjunct to abx. I found cumanda very helpful for yeast and eliminating susceptibility to UTI's, if not for Lyme. Doxycyline seemed to help with the brain fog. Now I'm working on the fatigue. Maybe, Enula can help with that. I have it, but haven't started yet.
With the many users on this board using either Cowden or Buhner's herbs and meeting with some kind of improvement, is a good thing. It doesn't matter what you choose, just choose something.
In my opinion, CherylSue
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sparkle7
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My doctor has alot of experience & he said he thought that the Cowden protocol was effective. There has been at least one study I know of, plus my doctor has consulted with other collegues about it. He said he thought that it may help me more than taking abx. Since I was getting nowhere with the abx, I wanted to try it.
Most herb producing companies don't have the resources that large pharmaceutical companies do. If you think the herbs are expensive now - how much do you think they would cost if everything was extensively tested? Just because drugs are tested, doesn't make them effective, either. There are alot of conflicts of interest in the field of medicine. I guess we could go to Peru & pick the Cat's Claw ourselves & it would be alot cheaper.
I don't agree that you always have to trust a "specialist" & that people who are "trained" know everything. I saw at least 10 doctors who didn't have a clue about Lyme - in a state where we are practically ground zero for Lyme. I had 2 ELISSA tests & a Western Blot & they were all negative according to NY State standards. So much for "trained professionals".
I spent alot of time studying herbs for my own interest. I actually worked in a store which sold culinary & medicinal herbs exclusively about 20 years ago. On reviewing the different herbal protocols, I found that the Cowden herbs were the easiest to use & they have a well thought out protocol.
So what if Cowden charges a few dollars extra? We live in a capitalist country. Do we all complain if CVS charges more than Walmart or Whole Foods charges more than Pathmark? Do you get upset that some people call Tylenol, Acetaminophen? What's the difference? Everyone thought it was safe to use Tylenol until people started getting liver damage from it. It was OKed by the FDA... Sometimes you have to take calculated risks with things.
I agree studies & such are important but if you wait until all the i's are dotted & t's are crossed with herbal therapies - you'll be waiting forever. Drugs are where the money is & they aren't rushing to come out with new drugs for Lyme. We have to take the treatments into our own hands.
BTW - I am taking some pharmaceuticals with the herbs, just not antibiotics.
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oxygenbabe
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I'm not talking about studies, I'm talking about a trained herbalist who has studied, has a degree, and years of clinical experience along with tradition using the herbs he or she recommends.
And it's not so what if you take common herbs, rename them, or market them as special and make an unecessary amount of profit. There is a difference btw profit and greed and doing things like renaming chamomile or cat's claw, common inexpensive herbs, and making them expensive, raises red flags.
Hope it works for you.
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sparkle7
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Not be arguementative but the actual ingredients are on the labels of the bottles of herbs that are sold by Nutramedix. You can always look for the same ones marketed by another company if you feel you can save money. You can pick & choose which things to use. You don't have to stick with everything on the protocol.
I think companies change the names of their formulas to identify the mixture. Many other herb companies do that, too. Sometimes, they have more than one herb in the formula or it could be a different variety of plant in a particular species. Some companies do that to identify which formulas work for a particular issue such as urinary infections, migraines, etc. They can't really claim it cures a particular illness but they use "suggestive" titles to associate the herb formula with an illness.
Compared to other things - the herbs aren't that expensive. I'd save my anger &/or suspicions to direct at different issues other than the Cowden protocol or Dr. Cowden. I don't think they are "the enemy"...
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oxygenbabe
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Actually it does make me angry. I think its irresponsible of MDs to willy nilly prescribe this stuff, and I don't see why people assume he's found an herbal treatment for babesia with no proof of any kind.
Best of luck to you.
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mojo
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My Dr. has started using Nutramedix a little since the last conference when Cowden gave a big presentation. He also had a nice conversation with the Nutramedix people which was nice.
I am on Samento and definatley noticed looser stools. Not too bad, though, in fact it was more helpful to me.
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sparkle7
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Everyone has a right to their opinion.
There are alot of other aspects of Lyme Disease that make me angrier than what Dr. Cowden does.
Herbal remedies can be very effective.
It makes me more upset that doctors are prescribing antibiotics in a "willy-nilly" fashion.
Compared to pharmaceutical drugs - herbs have had very low casualty rates.
If people got sick & died from herbs as much as they do from drugs - there would be no companies selling herbal preparations.
They would have been all bankrupted by lawsuits.
On the other hand - if they were ineffective, people wouldn't buy them & they would go out of business, as well.
So, despite of what some people thing about scientific testing & under-educated practitioners, the market for these supplements is showing that they must be working.
If people sue pharmaceutical companies from being injured by using drugs that were approved - they can afford it.
The big pharma companies calculate that into their cost structure. They make massive profits.
People dying from their drugs are just an acceptable allowance to these large corporations.
Smaller herb companies don't have that luxury.
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oxygenbabe
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Two wrongs don't make a right.
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I'm so happy to have a right to choose my treatment, including herbs, as I realize that in some countries this freedom has already been impacted.
I cannot afford the pharmaceutical companies obscene prices for some drugs. I mean really $800 for some prescription antibiotics??
I have been to many credentialed MD's who misdiagnosed me and prescribed useless drugs so I can't trust in that as any marker of successful treatment.
I wouldn't think to comment on any LLMD's who are mixing herbs into a treatment program as willy nilly unless I had first hand knowledge of the fact that they have not educated themselves about these herbs and their interactions.
Speculating that they are reckless is only an opinion if you have not gathered first hand facts from the source.
There are reams of published facts about the deaths caused by medications and their interactions which far outweigh any such outcomes with herbs.
I am not sure what the purpose of this discussion really is? I do believe we have to be cautious with all treatment but I am not jumping to conclusions that MD's using herbs do not know what they are doing unless I see some actual proof that this is a fact.
With all the drug recalls, I often wonder if MD's are ever fully educated about what drugs do to us as they only know what the pharmaceutical companies pass on to them or they wouldn't prescribe these harmful drugs that get recalled in the first place.
I've come to the conclusion that since there is no one size fits all lyme treatment that makes everyone well, that I just have to educate myself the best I can and make my best choice.
I'm grateful to all who share their treatment choices and kudos to the doctors who think outside the box in a sincere effort to help their patients improve their health.
As far as cost of herbs, I search out the most cost effective but reliable sources. I don't believe you need to use Nutramedix if you can find a more reasonably priced source elsewhere.
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sparkle7
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I agree with you, Looking. Many of the doctors I have seen were very cognizant of the use of herbs, as well as drugs.
There were some that were completely ignorant - but I think they were just ignorant people in general, about everything. Or, overly greedy... Some "experts" that I have seen in "alternative" medicine were quite ignorant, as well.
You just have to keep searching until you find a doctor who is compatible with your own philosophy about health & wellness. You also have to do the research & make up your own mind.
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I just started on enula - 30 drops 2x per day. Does anyone know if it should be taken away from food or with food? Also, I am treating it like any other supplement and taking it at least 2-3 hours away from antibiotics. Is this correct or do you think it doesn't matter?
I just started it so I haven't noticed any positive or negative effects but will report back if and when I do.
-David
-------------------- Same nightmare, different day! Posts: 401 | From East Coast | Registered: Nov 2005
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sixgoofykids
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11141
posted
David, my LLMD has me taking it 30 minutes before a meal, doesn't matter if abx are taken with that meal or not. If you're on Full Cowden, I take it with burbur, cumanda, trace minerals, and serrapeptase.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
You may want to ask Scott "the better health guy". It's on his list of what he's using.
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